Suspect SS NFE Suspect #4 - Little Fang

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Jett

gn gobodachis
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Thank you Greybaum for writing parts of this
(Thanks S1nn0hC0nfirm3d for the song that is now stuck in my head)
:ss/golbat:
Hey frens, the SS NFE Council have decided to test Golbat.​

Suspect Test Reasoning:

Since its release with the Crown Tundra DLC, Golbat has been at the forefront of the SS NFE metagame. Golbat has been a restrictive force in teambuilding thanks to its amazing defensive typing, respectable all round stats, a diverse movepool, and access to reliable recovery. On top of this, Roost is the only move that is common across all of Golbat's sets meaning its other three slots can customised to fit its desired roles. It can opt for Taunt, Super Fang, U-turn, Defog, Toxic, and even Nasty Plot.

While Golbat has a variety of sets it can choose from, its stallbreaker set is the main factor potentially pushing Golbat over the edge of unhealthiness. The combination of Super Fang and Taunt along with its aforementioned defensive traits allow it to invalidate defensive walls such as Clefairy, Koffing, and Ferroseed. In addition, Super Fang heavily chunks bulkier switch-ins like Piloswine and Metang that lack reliable recovery, often putting them in range of Brave Bird over the course of a longer game. Golbat's natural bulk and Speed also makes it somewhat hard to revenge kill accentuating how difficult it is for both offensive and defensive archetypes to make progress against it.

However, stallbreaking is not Golbat's only trick as it can also make good use of its Speed and decent Special Attack in the form of its Nasty Plot set. This set greatly benefits from how common stallbreaker and Defog Golbat are, and uses this unpredictability to its advantage. With access to Air Slash, Heat Wave, and Giga Drain it can be difficult to find a defensive switch-in that can safely stay in on all of its attacks. Nasty Golbat can easily set up on passive Pokemon and break past teams that are poorly equipped to deal with it, which isn't uncommon given the fact that its checks and counters are a fair bit different to its defensive counterparts. Unlike defensive sets, Nasty Plot Golbat also poses a greater immediate threat, so common offensive checks will struggle to switch directly into any attacks.

A lesser but still important point is that Golbat's presence in the metagame renders many other Flying-types obsolete. It outclasses other defensive Flying-type Defoggers as it has superior stats, better defensive typing, and better utility in moves. This makes Golbat arguably the best glue Pokemon and one that can be difficult to justify not using on a team. Defog Golbat also tends to run U-turn, letting it pivot out of common switch-ins making it even more difficult to remove from the game. Offensively, Nasty Plot Golbat is superior to other Nasty Plot birds such as Togetic and Vullaby due to its natural higher Speed making it harder to revenge kill

That being said, Golbat isn't without its flaws. Most of the common Pokemon Golbat typically switches into such as Gurdurr and Thwackey have access to Knock Off, and Golbat is significantly more manageable without the item. While Golbat is fast, there are many faster Pokemon that are commonly used that threaten to KO it with some prior chip damage, like Electabuzz, Galarian Mr. Mime, and Kadabra. Golbat is vulnerable to status, with Tangela often carrying Stun Spore or Sleep Powder to punish it for switching in, and Water-types such as Marshtomp and Mareanie using Scald to threaten it with a burn. The previously mentioned Electabuzz also has Static to punish Golbat's contact moves. A weakness to Stealth Rock significantly reduces its longevity and ability to switch into offensive threats, while also forcing it to Roost more often instead of being able to freely use its utility moves.

In addition, while Golbat may be seen as restricting or unhealthy there is also reasonable evidence to suggest that Grass-types, notably Ivysaur, Tangela, and Thwackey, may be too much for the tier to handle were Golbat to be absent, and that a Golbat ban would necessitate the removal of several other Pokemon in the tier either via additional suspect tests or via council vote. As Golbat is not considered "broken" but instead "unhealthy", it's understandable that some users may wish to continue playing in the relatively balanced, stable NFE meta we currently have, as opposed to potentially having to follow through with a chain reaction of bans, particularly with UMPL taking place in the upcoming weeks.

However, due to all of the above points, the council feels that Golbat is deserving of a suspect test.

Suspect Test Information:
The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 75 with at least 25 games played.
For this suspect test, a new account starting with NFEBAT, such as “NFEBAT vooper” must be used to qualify, as we will be using the NFE Ladder. The suspect will end in around 2 weeks time, on the 15th April 11:59pm EDT, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will also be used for posting your voter identification screenshot. Make sure when doing this, you show your alt has met these requirements, as well as proof that the alt belongs to you. When uploading large images, please use a HIDE tag.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts, unless it is posting that you’ve met the requirements for voting on Golbat.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process
3. Be respectful
Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

If you have any questions about this suspect, feel free to ask any of the NFE council team. Have fun laddering!

Tagging Kris to setup suspect and announcement on PS ladder games. Thanks in advance!
 
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Jett

gn gobodachis
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reqs for golbat.png

meow?

Edit:
My thoughts on Golbat
NFE will always be a top heavy metagame with a lot of centralisation, so it's important to readjust any views you having on tiering when applying it towards NFE. The main reasoning on whether Golbat deserved to be banned or not should ultimately be whether or not its influence on the metagame is too great to be considered net neutral healthiness. On the one hand, Golbat's ability to blanket a large portion of Pokemon, and be troublesome for many archetypes to make progress against. In particular, slower and passive Pokemon absolute hate facing Golbat because they get shut down by Taunt and despite Super Fang. Golbat, however does offer a lot of metagame stability, checking many top threats such as Tangela, Thwackey, and Gurdurr. Overall, I do think that there is a potential for Golbat's departure to be an overall net positive so I'm leaning towards ban for the time being. There are definitely other Pokemon that may become problematic because of this and it may indeed take a while before we get to another stable point in the metagame, but I feel the knock-on effect will not be that great, and at worst will be 5 mons or so that get banned (with a few of these already being somewhat questionable in the metagame although I won't go into detail since this thread is primarily about Golbat). The metagame is okay at the moment but I do believe it would most likely be improved if Golbat were to leave. I do want to somewhat playtest test a non-Golbat metagame and see what that's like though cause it could be very unstable for NFE for a bit. Hopefully reading paragraphs like these will help those who are unsure on what to vote.
 
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Wanted to get 25-0 as a challenge, but then I lost to Leo by the turn 1 wake up after sleep powder and losing to sun got me pissed lmao.

Here are my teams and I added some notes that would people wanting to understand my sets/teams. Hope it would help you getting the reqs.

1617454891594.png (Notes in pokepaste)

1617454857110.png
Here’s my take of a “standard team” in nfe.

  • Golbat’s speed purpose is outspeeding Pikachu. Taunt prevents defogs and pokemon from healing up. Not much else to say except on golbat itself real quick. Golbat is a fast bulky with an amazing defensive type so you can change into your liking. You can even add more speed to outspeed Jolly Gastly/Thwackey and Adamant Raboot, making it a spdef tanker. Change it to your own likings if you want so.

  • Gurdurr is a better defogger than Golbat lol. High Horsepower is used instead to deal with Mareanie, Koffing and Golbat trying to roost on you. The 44 Speed compliments it by outspeeding Mareanie. The reason behind this is this team is quite weak to toxic spikes, so adding this option deals every spiker beside Roselia(which isn’t common btw.

  • Ferroseed is a mix of both. Usually a SpDef waller, but I designed it to not be 3hko’d by Pikachu’s Knock Off. Ferroseed does also threaten Switchins Hattrem because losing eviolite = all Rockers 3hko’s it. Leed Seed helps its recovery, as well putting much chip on Gurdurr.

  • Fire types are known to be the type that many teams don't prepare for, and it still is today. Choice Specs Magmar hasn’t a lot of switchins and it’s where I would say when you’re changing the pace on the midgame. Fire Blast is STAB, Scorching Sands is to beat Mareanie/Lampent/Magmar, and Psychic is good for the amount of fighting/poison types, and the lack of Dark types in this tier. Teleport is self explanatory, but I found it rare to use it so change it to toxic if you want. Also Timid > Modest since outspeeding Golbat is important, and Vital Spirit to deal with Ivysaur.

    - Electabuzz helps this team be able to deal with Water types and Golbat. I used Psychic over Focus Blast as Gurdurr is to deal with Ferroseed/Piloswine. Taunt prevents the team from throwing hazard, but specifically stops Defog and Recovery. Electabuzz is also tanky from the special side so use it to switch into Special Attacks if you want.

  • Piloswine compliments Ferroseed by threatening Hattrem w/o eviolite, and Golbat. I designed it to be more Spdef so you avoid getting 2hko by Electabuzz’s focus blast. It also indirectly helps you against Lampent and Kadabra.

    Something you have to take into account for is this team doesn’t have the strongest raw power, and it lacks priority so revenge killing is harder. Sun can still create a lot of problems against this team, and Fire mons with Choice items will be an annoyance. The only changes I could mention is getting rid of High Horsepower with Mach Punch, but you struggle against toxic spikes teams. Or replace Gurdurr entirely with Wartortle if you just want your hazards to be active.

Wartortle @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Flip Turn
- Scald
- Toxic / Seismic Toss

Can switch in against Fire types, gives you some slower pivoting. Scald deals with Piloswine, Koffing, etc. While the 4th slot can be toxic to cripple Corsola-. I would recommend Seismic Toss so put Ferroseed and Electabuzz in a worse position(both get three ko’d by it). In an exchange for losing another knock off, having a worse matchup against Mareanie with Toxic spikes.

1617455097882.png
Sun is rising in suspect right now, and it's a very strong counterpick against the standard teams.

- Vulpix is the only one giving out sun. Don't sacc it on t1 or early ones, have it until endgame as an reversal. Encore to stop setups, will o wisp to cripple physical attackers etc. The 44 hp is designed so you're able to switch in 4 times with stealth rocks field. tl;dr a number divided by 4 -1 lets you enable it.

-Ivysaur outspeeds +1 240 speed, namely scarf rufflet. Sleep Powder is there to put sleep on your checks such as golbat, kadabra and raboot w/o scarf.
Ivysaur is what makes sun great, so use it wisely and be aware of it.

- Lampent is added here to deal with non assurance Raboots, and Pikachu. It also outspeeds the fastest non boosted mons.

- Magmar is a lit sun mon being able to tank special hits and dish damage back hard with sun. Switchins that magmar is designed for Lampent, Pikachu and Golbat. Use taunt to stop your opponent recovering and setting up.

Hattrem prevents hazards and doesn't mind koffing as Ivysaur exists. Outspeed 136 speeds such as Piloswine, Marshtomp etc. Use healing wish once hattrem has low health. Also learn "healing wish storing" as it compliments vulpix's memento.

- Corsola-g tanks, throws rocks n such. Haze is the only different thing as Corsola-g can be a sitting duck against setups, so haze prevents them setting up since it wins 1v1.

This sun is kinda hyper offense, but you would need to make switchins and some passive plays on sudden scenarios. Otherwise it's a team that's designed to deal with golbat and pikachus.

Some changes you can do is change Vulpix's overheat into weather ball/fire blast and sacrifice the bulk to speed on hattrem(recommended 157). Ivysaur can have the speed into 172 if you're not bothered with rufflet, but otherwise this set does win against opposing ivysaur lol. Threats against this team can be Choice Scarf Raboot, SpDef Hattrem and Vital Spirit Magmar but otherwise you’re good to go. GL if you're using it on the ladder.



Thoughts on Golbat.
I was pro ban,but now it's indifferent. Golbat does centralize the hell outta this tier, and I find Super Fang/Taunt kinda bullshit but Golbat is extremely straight forward with its role and there are many ways to deal with it that fits in this meta. Good amount of faster offensive mons as Electabuzz, Magmar, Kadabra, CB Raboot, Linoone-G etc. While there are some slower Pokemon able to deal with Golbat, Piloswine and Pikachu. Although one of my biggest issues with Golbat is that most pokemon that are slower than Golbat isn't able to offensivily pressure on it while Golbat is able to easily do back on everyone else. Yet that isn't exactly true because once Golbat loses its eviolite, it's not able to check everything as it would and gets worn down faster, as I tend to lose Golbat at midgame more than endgame. And getting rid of Golbat's eviolite is very common, such as Gurdurr, Ferroseed, Tangela, Thwackey and Ivysaur(very underused move that can be explored) finds a lot of opportunity on Golbat. Golbat does force teams to have a similar team structure by always including fast pokemons or Piloswine/Pikachu. It does as well limits playstyles such as stall, hyper offense and balance itself. But I accepted that NFE will always be top heavy, and Bulky-Balance is the king of playstyle. And centralizing isn't always bad, as long the meta is healthy and fun, and the top tiers has clear weakness which Golbat has rn imo.

Either what I said was right or the ladder has poisoned me bc ladder is so wack lmao. Anyway I'm indifferent, but it looks like the direction will go no ban for me. I'll decide it once the voting comes up.
 
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lepton

im fragile, but not that fragile
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good (lucky) run
thoughts on bat are mixed for me. on one hand its very centralizing and threatening to many pokemon but at the same time multiple very threatening mons are kept in check by it. basically same thoughts as jett now that im thinking about it lol
 
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S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

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Ouch, this took me too many tries. I blame the no titans meta getting me out of the swing of things ;-;

Mindless VoltTurn I used: https://pokepast.es/8b9962093babcd1b
Scarf Raboot is pretty nice to have in this meta. Team drops to Gime so just play aggressive and plan revenge kills right; Thwackey OHKOes Eviolite-less variants and Vull can do one U-turn / Knock at full. Other than that, this team is just a super basic VoltTurn. It should be easy to pilot.

:golbat:
What's tough about Golbat in this meta is that it's often heavily matchup dependent for it to be broken. Whether it works as a wall, checking Thwackey, Tangela, and Gurdurr? That's a guarantee, but the brokeness of the Super Fang set relies on what it's supplemented with, both with moves like Taunt / Toxic / Substitute and the types of teammates. It's an apparent matchup dependency that's worth fishing for due Golbat's intrinsic value as a defensive check, but it's hard to say if this bonus pushes it over the edge and worth a ban. I'm leaning on no.

There's a lot of meta and creative ways to pressure Golbat, too, so the centralization isn't a big issue to me either. Personally, I have a hard time playing Golbat, so I rarely use it in my teams anyways. The OP covered the main weaknesses of Golbat already, and all I can add is that a Knocked, statused Golbat is such a common occurrence that teams can then rely on slower wallbreakers that break through Golbat and its common defensive teammates.

I'll likely vote no ban. A lot of us here have expressed uneasiness about the decision, but the last influencing factor to me at least is the current state of the meta. This metagame has been around for so long and I've found it to contain + encourage a good level of diversity and playstyles. That is, at least what we've come to expect from NFE at this point, always being top heavy and all. Golbat's influence isn't warping nor unhealthy enough for a ban.
 

hayedenn

forgotten me already?
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confirming as nfebat tox

here's the team i used
:kadabra: :Mr. mime-galar: :wartortle: :ferroseed: :golbat: :piloswine:
not a tourney-worthy team but very good for owning people on the ladder. i do have some thoughts about golbat but honestly i ordered food an hour ago that never ended up coming and im really hungry so all I'll say is that it's weird. it is very oppressive in the metagame and at times uncompetitive but it's also a very good glue mon that keeps necessary stuff in check (see: sun) sooooo idk. im gonna take more time to think about it but i think for the sake of the fun-ness of the tier, its uncompetitiveness, and bringing more people to nfe i think golbat honestly should get the banhammer. i think no titans has shown that we can have a really good metagame without golbat (and also pika) and while banning golbat may end up centralizing the tier around a couple mons like koffing, gurdurr, and a few others i think it will also increase the viability of more fringe playstyles like stall and other weathers while also bringing more people to nfe who may currently shy away due to the power of pokemon like bat/pika (tang not so much, it isn't really busted). cheers
 
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SparksBlade

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maybe it's cos i was on the ladder but i rly didn't feel like golbat was that good, but imo it's very important to check the threats like thwackey and gurdurr. it's not unkillable - half the tier runs knock - and a decent number of rocks setters can beat golbat so it's not always easy to be healthy either, and couple that with a bunch of fast and strong pokemon that are viable on their own and can take it out mid game (the psychics and the electrics being the most prominent). i also felt that actually getting golbat in for free isn't that easy, though that might be because my team was a bit offensive, and ladder also tends to prefer offensive teams in general.
here's the team i used
thanks for the team! i'll keep an eye on this thread and go through the other metagame discussion one to better understand the meta state and golbat's full effect on it
 
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