Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

[maroon]

The state of the current metagame seems to be relatively stable. However, I definitely believe that Melmetal should be suspect tested!

Overall, Steel teams boast a solid defensive core covering all their weaknesses with different immunities and provide key resists to many types, making Steel teams defensive core frustrating to take on. While this isn't the biggest problem, the defensive core has Melmetal in the back able to take on other walls for them, its teammates provide an ample host of switch-in opportunities for Melmetal and wear down its checks, and it can break through threats for them such as Galarian Moltres. In return, Melmetal has pivots to immunities for the handful of Pokemon that can handle it. Corviknight, Skarmory, and Celesteela provide a Ground immunity, provide a handful of utility between pivoting in with U-turn, clearing hazards with Defog, clicking Body Press to weaken other Steel-types, setting Spikes, Leech Seed + Toxic support, and more. Aegislash provides a Fighting immunity and is a handy anti-Psychic tool; with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak alongside King's Shield, it can work against Pokemon such as Tapu Lele threaten Melmetal.

Melmetal has a few sets in the current metagame: Choice Band, Leftovers + Substitute, or Assault Vest. All these sets serve different purposes and allow Melmetal to take on a variety of different Pokemon. Choice Band being the most devastating attacker can OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame (literally no Pokemon isn't 2HKO'd by either its STAB or coverage), even forcing types with decent matchups against Steel to warp some sets to better take on Melmetal such as Dragon using Physically Defensive Rocky Helmet Garchomp. Leftovers + Substitute trades some power for longevity; this allows it to better take advantage of forced switches by giving it a safe turn to attack whatever comes in and avoid being burnt by Pokemon such as Toxapex with Scald. Assault Vest functions similarly to Choice Band in terms of how it plays; while it trades a good chunk of power, it still hits plenty hard and allows it to take on traditional checks, such as Hydreigon on with ease.

Choice Band is its most broken set being able to hit with devastating force and 2HKO the entire metagame between Double Iron Bash and its fantastic coverage to take on Steel-resistant Pokemon such as Ferrothorn with Superpower, Magnezone with Earthquake, Celesteela with Thunder Punch, as well as good supporting coverage with Ice Punch for defensive Landorus-T and Garchomp. I don't really feel like posting a bunch of calcs since everyone knows just how ridiculously powerful this behemoth is.

TL;DR: Melmetal's support from Steel's defensive core and sheer wallbreaking ability make it too much for the metagame.​

 

[Fraolain]

I think the only problematic set of melmetal right now is dynamic punch+blunder policy so rather than banning the mon I think we should just ban dynamic punch and/or blunder policy ? Or is it too complex for a ban

 

[VeprenToin]

I think the only problematic set of melmetal right now is dynamic punch+blunder policy so rather than banning the mon I think we should just ban dynamic punch and/or blunder policy ? Or is it too complex for a ban

I personally think we just need to suspect the melmetal and not the items or moves in general, Thus it could create to much hassle cause there are a ton of sets with them. Melmetal as a mon is really good on a steel meta team and steel has been by far to strong for a while now and needs to be checked personally. I believe the last suspect we had for steel it was between melmetal and aegis, aegis never got banned so it would be a good time to suspect it.

 

[wkxkevin]

Not saying melm is broken, just finding switches to DIB. All pokemon listed can survive 2 banded DIB more than 50% of the time with max defense and hp invesetment.​

Fire (intimidate) is a 45% 2HKO​	Water (intimidate) Surpringly, Max Def & HP are very barely 2HKOed​
Grass is approx 2HKO​	Electric (intimidate)​
Normal ​	Fighting ​
Poison ​	Psychic ​
Ghost :D 64.8% chance of 2HKO​	Dark (intimidate)​
Bug :D ​	Ground (32.8% 2HKO)​
Ice Laughs!!!​	Rock Laughs!!! (btw, stakataka max hp & def is 2HKO from DIB)​
Flying :corvinight: (landorus-T is a 2HKO after intimidate)​	Dragon (rocky helmet + rough skin is enough for EQ range)​
Steel Laughs!!! Almost Everything​	Fairy HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (klefki is 2HKO guarantee behind reflect)​

mandibuzz takes 68.3 - 81.1% with max def and hp(bold), let's appreciate this calc
buzzwole takes 56.4 - 67.4% with max def and hp(impish), let's appreciate this calc as well


Key Takeaways if you did read the above:

There are only 7 checks/counters to Melmetal. Those are:
1~4. Good fire, water, electric, steel types that do not have low defenses and hp as well as resisting steel
5. Initimidate
6. Wonder Guard :D
7. Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet to push to a range where KOing melm is possible

if said checks/counters are enough, let it stay, if not, boot it out.

 

[Hyperspace12]

Not saying melm is broken or not just finding switches to DIB. All pokemon listed can survive 2 banded DIB more than 50% of the time with max defense and hp invesetment.​

Fire (intimidate) is a 45% 2HKO​	Water (intimidate) Surpringly, Max Def & HP are very barely 2HKOed​
Grass is approx 2HKO​	Electric (intimidate)​
Normal ​	Fighting ​
Poison ​	Psychic ​
Ghost :D 64.8% chance of 2HKO​	Dark (intimidate)​
Bug :D ​	Ground (32.8% 2HKO)​
Ice Laughs!!!​	Rock Laughs!!! (btw, stakataka max hp & def is 2HKO from DIB)​
Flying :corvinight: (landorus-T is a 2HKO after intimidate)​	Dragon (rocky helmet + rough skin is enough for EQ range)​
Steel Laughs!!! Almost Everything​	Fairy HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (klefki is 2HKO guarantee behind reflect)​

mandibuzz takes 68.3 - 81.1% with max def and hp(bold), let's appreciate this calc
buzzwole takes 56.4 - 67.4% with max def and hp(impish), let's appreciate this calc as well


Key Takeaways if you did read the above:

There are only 7 checks/counters to Melmetal. Those are:
1~4. Good fire, water, electric, steel types that do not have low defenses and hp as well as resisting steel
5. Initimidate
6. Wonder Guard :D
7. Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet to push to a range where KOing melm is possible

if said checks/counters are enough, let it stay, if not, boot it out.

I know u didnt give a stance on the discussion as a whole but id like to note that this list is incredibly lenient with what consists of a "melmetal counter." Not gonna comment on the obvious stuff like most of the pokemon on fire being able to handle melmetal but thats an extremely rare case since most of the other types are going to have a tough time against one of the three main mel sets(referring to cb, sub, and av). I want to point out the fact that 75% of mons on this list dont count as counters. For water, it's worth noting that melmetal has coverage outside of double iron bash, pokemon like suicune never want to come in since you risk your wincon taking like 75 from banded tpunch, volcanion doesn't ever come in either cuz u get smacked by banded eq, and stuff like toxapex is sub bait which is even worse. Gastro and swampert are honestly terrible vs melmetal, spd swampert gets 2hkod(a lot of mons in the most u mention dont like running defensive spreads(like aegi/swampert) cuz they need the spd to beat other mons, so even tho physd isnt 2hkod that isnt rly relevant) , and gastrodon tanks non choice dib pretty nicely but melmetal can fk it up with shit like toxic/dib flinching. essentially what Im saying is, none of these Pokemon really "counter" melmetal, and only a select few truly even check it(fighters/volcanion). You then proceed to mention Pokemon like Shedinja and Jellicent on Ghost, which probably shouldn't be used - if you're using them for melmetal there's definitely something wrong. Some, like togedemaru, are downright unusable and don't even beat melmetal(what do u even do to melmetal lmfao). None of your calcs take into account the fact that mel's teammates put pressure on as well with spikes(ferro) rocks(skarm/tran) toxic(aegi/ferro) etc. Personally I am not sure if Melmetal is banworthy yet, as in practice it needs to find times to come in and click; its bulk is ridiculous but you kinda get forced to lose hp to check mons like goltres or whatever. Just wanted to touch on this topic cause it makes melmetal look way more manageable than it actually is. It's worth noting that a list of checks and counters would be a lot more extensive since a fair amount of pokemon threaten it out, but that alone wouldn't make melmetal entirely balanced.

edit: spelling n grammar ;w;

 

[wkxkevin]

that this list is incredibly lenient with what consists of a "melmetal counter."

just finding switches to DIB. All pokemon listed can survive 2 banded DIB more than 50% of the time with max defense and hp investment.

This is not a melm counter list. Please read.

 

[Hyperspace12]

This is not a melm counter list. Please read.

everything still stands for what i said before, barely any of these actually switch into melmetal, many dont run defensive spreads in reality, some are downright unviable, and some can switch in but don't do anything back. what is the point of being able to live 2 dibs from melmetal if it ends up not mattering?

 

[roxie]

I find Melmetal pretty restricting to my building personally and I find it that I'm using Rocky Helmet just to patch holes on teams like Intimidate + Rocky Helmet Krookodile on Dark since switching your "Steel resist" (Bisharp) in and it does like 5 and if you're to a point where you are using Incineroar, it's definitely time for this Pokemon to go. I look at this list of Pokemon that "switches" into Melmetal and a good bit of them don't appreciate switching into a Banded Double Iron Head Bash and it doesn't account for its other coverage moves being Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Superpower, and Ice Punch and other sets like Substitute to avoid Scald burn and Assault Vest. For example, Melmetal just clicks Substitute on something passive like Galarian Weezing / Toxapex / Amoonguss and the Poison player has to play sack wars and predict DIIB/EQ or make repeated double switches into Nidoking. Base 143 Attack with a 120 BP 2HKO move with nice coverage and bulk is too much for the metagame and running the aforementioned subpar Pokemon and Rocky Helmet spam is item restricting.

 

[thelegendsrevamped]

Not saying melm is broken, just finding switches to DIB. All pokemon listed can survive 2 banded DIB more than 50% of the time with max defense and hp invesetment.​

Fire (intimidate) is a 45% 2HKO​	Water (intimidate) Surpringly, Max Def & HP are very barely 2HKOed​
Grass is approx 2HKO​	Electric (intimidate)​
Normal ​	Fighting ​
Poison ​	Psychic ​
Ghost :D 64.8% chance of 2HKO​	Dark (intimidate)​
Bug :D ​	Ground (32.8% 2HKO)​
Ice Laughs!!!​	Rock Laughs!!! (btw, stakataka max hp & def is 2HKO from DIB)​
Flying :corvinight: (landorus-T is a 2HKO after intimidate)​	Dragon (rocky helmet + rough skin is enough for EQ range)​
Steel Laughs!!! Almost Everything​	Fairy HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH (klefki is 2HKO guarantee behind reflect)​

mandibuzz takes 68.3 - 81.1% with max def and hp(bold), let's appreciate this calc
buzzwole takes 56.4 - 67.4% with max def and hp(impish), let's appreciate this calc as well


Key Takeaways if you did read the above:

There are only 7 checks/counters to Melmetal. Those are:
1~4. Good fire, water, electric, steel types that do not have low defenses and hp as well as resisting steel
5. Initimidate
6. Wonder Guard :D
7. Rough Skin/Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet to push to a range where KOing melm is possible

if said checks/counters are enough, let it stay, if not, boot it out.

• Even if the pokemon from the above list live 2 hits from Melmetal they cant dish out that much damage back while Melmetal dishes huge damage with 144bp stab move and on the account of steel being not the the best offensive typing its coverage strikes and well its got a huge hp which help it tank special hits too and considering how much support the immunity core and steel mono can offer Melmetal seems too much for this meta and assault vest sets can mitigate the low spdef of melmetal while banded sets have sheer wallbreaking power it can just sit on some types and need multiple pokemon to be sacced and dealing with the mind games of dib or coverage when they switch into their checks. 252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
  252+ Atk Choice Band Melmetal Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 206-244 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
  one wrong prediction and ur melmetal counter is no more and while coming to its tanking capabilities
  252 Atk Choice Band Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 390-462 (93 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
  even a choice band on the 3rd highest base attack pokemon in monotype with a 100 bp stab super effective move is a roll while the other two being regigigas and Haxorus which don’t have stab super effective move
  while on the special side 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 308-366 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  assault vest variants can take the most powerful of the special moves this shows that u need to typcially trade mons 1 for 1 vs melmetal or just sac a mon every time it comes in and while its true that it can be chipped with hazards and stuff here's where the incredible support steel can offer comes in play

• TLDR: Melmetal amazing coverage coupled with its high base power stab and amazing capabilities of taking hits I think melmetal is too much for this meta to handle
• and yea I completely agree most of the mons are really unviable or just cant dish back enough damage

 

[wkxkevin]

If it's that oppressing as is universally agreed upon, why are we not immediately suspecting it. You are right that melm is oppressive, but where is the suspect test?

 

[thelegendsrevamped]

If it's that oppressing as is universally agreed upon, why are we not immediately suspecting it. You are right that melm is oppressive, but where is the suspect test?

Yes, I am just necessitating the fact that how powerful Melmetal can be for this meta and I also agree with the fact that it must be suspect tested

 

[icyruios]

Might seem like a dumb question but Melmetal isn't even S/A rank on the viability ranking. If it was so oppressing shouldn't it be at least A?

 

[XSTATIC COLD]

anyway it is not for nothing that all bad players use steel in ladder, it is so broken.. between aegi, melmetal ,heatran, celesteela..

 

[wkxkevin]

As a player that has given up steel for a a few months, here are my ultimate thoughts regarding playing it and playing against it (at least from psychic player's perspective). Steel is not a type that revolves around a few extremely powerful pokemon like tapu lele and victini for psychic, ferothorn and rilaboom for grass, etc. Instead, it revolves around an extremely unbreakable core of pokemon.

For most types, to get around weaknesses/super effective moves, we need to pick a pokemon that neutralizes one or two weaknesses. Occasionally, we might get an immunity from an ability like storm drain gastrodon on ground, or from the secondary type itself like landorus-T for flying. Steel is one of very few types that use immunities to cover both of its weaknesses. The only other types that can do so are electric and water, both of which are top tier types. However, to achieve that water has to utilize sap sipper azumarill. The only reason to do this is to run the perish trapper set. Other than that, water pretty vulnerable to grass. Although electric can achieve immunity to ground through zapdos/thunderus or levitate(rotom forms), it many flaws.
first, levitate mons are very weak to mold breaker earthquake(forshadowing), thunderus is very frail and zapdos often needs to remain healthy which is highly exploitable.

However: the most important thing is that steel has the most resistances out of any type by a mile. Steel is weak to fire, ground, and fighting, Resistant to normal, grass, ice, flying, psychic, bug, rock, dragon, steel, fairy while being immune to poison. Here is that catch. steel vs ground/fighting is not one sided at all. Personally, ground/fighting win 60|40. IMO, the only types that have an overwhelming advantage are dark and fire. Fire because of type advantage and dark because steel has a hard time with setup.

Looking at the main core, which for me, consist of aegislash, heatran, excadrill, and your choice of steel flying type. That in and of itself covers to much of the meta. For example, aegislash is extremely oppressive towards types like psychic. Even if victini wants to kill it, heatran covers its back. I as a psychic main ended up being to forced to use Decem's sub 3 attack set to deal with this, which compromises a lot on power(CB V-create). Most types carry a similar situation. They only have one or 2 mons that can help break steel.

Enter melmetal. The problem with melmetal is not it being overpowered. In fact, it's laughable people are complaining about it. CB sets can be devastating, but can be played around which right predictions(keep in mind, steel often ends up ins 50/50 situations). Other sets usually have pretty hard counters for most types. The real problem is that melm is good at destroying pretty much all the steel counters available. For example, AV melm can absolutely wreck mons like hydreigon, sub victini, nidoking, zapdos(except under terrain) and even to a certain extent, goltres. All of which are known to be some of the best breakers of the steel core. This makes it very hard to accomplish anything, made worse by the fact that steel loves to spam protect and hazards, which can scout for moves and switch the correct immunity in all while chipping the opponent attempting to get an advantage.

TLDR
Melm is not a broken mon. People treat it as a broken mon because it made an already broken core a lot, lot, lot worse. Personally, I think there are 2 solutions. 1. Ban melm, 2. Ban one member of the core without destroying it.

In previous gens, we banned aegis, this time it survived ban hammer, but still deserves a resuspect, not because it by itself is broken, but in the context of steel as a whole, is very oppressing. In the end, none of steel's pokemon are independently overpowered, including melm, the problem is that melm synergies way to well with the core steel has.

 

[thelegendsrevamped]

As a player that has given up steel for a a few months, here are my ultimate thoughts regarding playing it and playing against it (at least from psychic player's perspective). Steel is not a type that revolves around a few extremely powerful pokemon like tapu lele and victini for psychic, ferothorn and rilaboom for grass, etc. Instead, it revolves around an extremely unbreakable core of pokemon.

For most types, to get around weaknesses/super effective moves, we need to pick a pokemon that neutralizes one or two weaknesses. Occasionally, we might get an immunity from an ability like storm drain gastrodon on ground, or from the secondary type itself like landorus-T for flying. Steel is one of very few types that use immunities to cover both of its weaknesses. The only other types that can do so are electric and water, both of which are top tier types. However, to achieve that water has to utilize sap sipper azumarill. The only reason to do this is to run the perish trapper set. Other than that, water pretty vulnerable to grass. Although electric can achieve immunity to ground through zapdos/thunderus or levitate(rotom forms), it many flaws.
first, levitate mons are very weak to mold breaker earthquake(forshadowing), thunderus is very frail and zapdos often needs to remain healthy which is highly exploitable.

However: the most important thing is that steel has the most resistances out of any type by a mile. Steel is weak to fire, ground, and fighting, Resistant to normal, grass, ice, flying, psychic, bug, rock, dragon, steel, fairy while being immune to poison. Here is that catch. steel vs ground/fighting is not one sided at all. Personally, ground/fighting win 60|40. IMO, the only types that have an overwhelming advantage are dark and fire. Fire because of type advantage and dark because steel has a hard time with setup.

Looking at the main core, which for me, consist of aegislash, heatran, excadrill, and your choice of steel flying type. That in and of itself covers to much of the meta. For example, aegislash is extremely oppressive towards types like psychic. Even if victini wants to kill it, heatran covers its back. I as a psychic main ended up being to forced to use Decem's sub 3 attack set to deal with this, which compromises a lot on power(CB V-create). Most types carry a similar situation. They only have one or 2 mons that can help break steel.

Enter melmetal. The problem with melmetal is not it being overpowered. In fact, it's laughable people are complaining about it. CB sets can be devastating, but can be played around which right predictions(keep in mind, steel often ends up ins 50/50 situations). Other sets usually have pretty hard counters for most types. The real problem is that melm is good at destroying pretty much all the steel counters available. For example, AV melm can absolutely wreck mons like hydreigon, sub victini, nidoking, zapdos(except under terrain) and even to a certain extent, goltres. All of which are known to be some of the best breakers of the steel core. This makes it very hard to accomplish anything, made worse by the fact that steel loves to spam protect and hazards, which can scout for moves and switch the correct immunity in all while chipping the opponent attempting to get an advantage.

TLDR
Melm is not a broken mon. People treat it as a broken mon because it made an already broken core a lot, lot, lot worse. Personally, I think there are 2 solutions. 1. Ban melm, 2. Ban one member of the core without destroying it.

In previous gens, we banned aegis, this time it survived ban hammer, but still deserves a resuspect, not because it by itself is broken, but in the context of steel as a whole, is very oppressing. In the end, none of steel's pokemon are independently overpowered, including melm, the problem is that melm synergies way to well with the core steel has.

And yes the amazing immunity core makes it pretty hard to break and the amazing bulk level of the pokemon's in the core is on whole different level and the immunity core means a choice locked pokemon cant break the core coz the whole immunity core just protect scouts thus making the team unbelievably hard to counter and yea as the wkxkevin said it often leads to 50/50 mind games and some teams types just don't have the power to force through the immunity core and even if some have the fact that it cant uses choice scarf due to immunity core is taken advantage by scarf excadrill which makes the immunity core unbelievably hard to break thus making steel a defining type most importantly everyteam needs to plan for the immunity core and sometimes the whole steel itself and if you win the mind games you can even win vs fire and all with scarf excadrill and heatran which is good but not having a definite type to win vs steel is tough while some substitute sweepers like hydreigon or double dance galarian Moltres can break through steel most of the types dont have the necessary tools
TL DR:the immunity core is unbeleivably hard to break combined with with naturally high defenses and resistances it can be unbreakable for quite some types which is not healthy in my opinion

 

[Minecraftboy34]

The issue with Melmetal isn't Melmetal itself (as many people have said). In a vacuum, its a strong pokemon but not broken. The reason why it's broken is the entire core of Steel. No other type has a core as strong as Steel, with it having a pokemon that is immune to each of its weaknesses and all of those pokemon being actually fairly bulky (unlike poison or electric's core) and not restricting themselves to some gimmick (like sap sipper azumarill for water). Most teams, if they want to break any one of these pokemon, are relying on Choice band or choice specs pokemon and given how much Steel gets off to spamming protect, all these possible threats to the Steel core, are all but completely neutralised. The only pokemon that CAN semi-consistently break steel are set up sweepers since the defensive core can't stop them from setting up. This is where Melmetal comes in. It just OHKO's 99% of set up sweepers, the 1% being bulk up sweepers (after setting up once or twice, at which point melmetal can just 2HKO).

So basically, what do you get when you cross a hugely bulky and strong wall breaker with a defensive core that enables him to come in whenever he wants? I'll tell you what you get. You get the best type in the game that even a drooling kindergarten-age child can play effectively and win. The absolute ease with which one can play it, attracts all the low ladder players who want in on the almost-free ELO (since a lot of types just cant deal with steel, like ice, grass rock and other types, which doesn't contribute to a healthy meta). The entirety of low ladder is filled with steel players. Nothing of what I said is by any means an astute observation, nor does it require more than than 10 games vs the typical steel team to notice.

This is why I agree with what Wkxkevin said (I think that's how I mention people?), in his previous post. Either A: Ban Melmetal (which only treats the symptom of steel being too good) or B: Deal with the actual problem and ban one of Steel's immunity core pokemon (alternatively you could complex ban so you can't have all 3, but the council dislikes complex bans). That is all I have to say.

 

[risinguptothetop]

Hey, riseuptothetop here. Couldn't agree more with the above posts. When you look at that immunity core+Melmetal, they just synergize well. The lack of a proper switch-in that can take two hits is even more prominent. Both it's sets (Band/AV) are a constant threat to half of the types. Thanks to it's amazing coverage you can switch around all you want (unless you have a rough skin/rocky helmet user), Melmetal is still going to punch those holes, and switch out whenever it likes because there is no lack of good switch-ins on steel. Your natural counters like Ferrothorn, Pelipper, etc. can get hit on the switch by a Superpower or Thunder Punch and before you know it, you're suddenly on the back foot against it. The mon itself is great on its own but when paired with the immunity core on steel which already was painful to deal with, Melmetal just gets an even better upper hand.
TLDR: Lack of switch-ins + immunity core is a combination types struggle with.

 

[mushamu]

As a player that has given up steel for a a few months, here are my ultimate thoughts regarding playing it and playing against it (at least from psychic player's perspective). Steel is not a type that revolves around a few extremely powerful pokemon like tapu lele and victini for psychic, ferothorn and rilaboom for grass, etc. Instead, it revolves around an extremely unbreakable core of pokemon.

For most types, to get around weaknesses/super effective moves, we need to pick a pokemon that neutralizes one or two weaknesses. Occasionally, we might get an immunity from an ability like storm drain gastrodon on ground, or from the secondary type itself like landorus-T for flying. Steel is one of very few types that use immunities to cover both of its weaknesses. The only other types that can do so are electric and water, both of which are top tier types. However, to achieve that water has to utilize sap sipper azumarill. The only reason to do this is to run the perish trapper set. Other than that, water pretty vulnerable to grass. Although electric can achieve immunity to ground through zapdos/thunderus or levitate(rotom forms), it many flaws.
first, levitate mons are very weak to mold breaker earthquake(forshadowing), thunderus is very frail and zapdos often needs to remain healthy which is highly exploitable.

However: the most important thing is that steel has the most resistances out of any type by a mile. Steel is weak to fire, ground, and fighting, Resistant to normal, grass, ice, flying, psychic, bug, rock, dragon, steel, fairy while being immune to poison. Here is that catch. steel vs ground/fighting is not one sided at all. Personally, ground/fighting win 60|40. IMO, the only types that have an overwhelming advantage are dark and fire. Fire because of type advantage and dark because steel has a hard time with setup.

Looking at the main core, which for me, consist of aegislash, heatran, excadrill, and your choice of steel flying type. That in and of itself covers to much of the meta. For example, aegislash is extremely oppressive towards types like psychic. Even if victini wants to kill it, heatran covers its back. I as a psychic main ended up being to forced to use Decem's sub 3 attack set to deal with this, which compromises a lot on power(CB V-create). Most types carry a similar situation. They only have one or 2 mons that can help break steel.

Enter melmetal. The problem with melmetal is not it being overpowered. In fact, it's laughable people are complaining about it. CB sets can be devastating, but can be played around which right predictions(keep in mind, steel often ends up ins 50/50 situations). Other sets usually have pretty hard counters for most types. The real problem is that melm is good at destroying pretty much all the steel counters available. For example, AV melm can absolutely wreck mons like hydreigon, sub victini, nidoking, zapdos(except under terrain) and even to a certain extent, goltres. All of which are known to be some of the best breakers of the steel core. This makes it very hard to accomplish anything, made worse by the fact that steel loves to spam protect and hazards, which can scout for moves and switch the correct immunity in all while chipping the opponent attempting to get an advantage.

TLDR
Melm is not a broken mon. People treat it as a broken mon because it made an already broken core a lot, lot, lot worse. Personally, I think there are 2 solutions. 1. Ban melm, 2. Ban one member of the core without destroying it.

In previous gens, we banned aegis, this time it survived ban hammer, but still deserves a resuspect, not because it by itself is broken, but in the context of steel as a whole, is very oppressing. In the end, none of steel's pokemon are independently overpowered, including melm, the problem is that melm synergies way to well with the core steel has.

Hello I really like your post and all the discussion; and I think it’s a good discussion to have regarding steel which has been infamous in mono for as long as it has existed. I’d like to address some points as to why i personally disagree with steels defensive core being too much.

If you think about what types are good right now, things like water, electric, ground, fire, fairy, poison, psychic, flying, and dark come up. Steels defensive core is super scary on paper, but pretty much all of these types have something to beat it without running some insane dogshit set that isn’t useful anywhere else. You mention psychic having trouble with steel, but there are pokemon like Victini, glowking, Slowbro, and mew that are extremely good against steel and are great in psychic to begin with. There are plenty of steel breakers across the metagame that make the type manageable, Galarian moltres can pretty much 6-0 it (lol), hydreigon, landorus-t, thundurus-t, nidoking, Zeraora, zapdos, volcanion… the list goes on and on. It’s true that steel covers its weaknesses really well to the point where natural mad matchups aren’t too favored for them, but why is that an issue? As long as steels defensive core isn’t too oppressive, then there’s no problem with just keeping things the way they are. Preparing for steel is no different than preparing for another defensive core like poison’s(which I’d argue is stronger than steels) or flying’s. If we were to resuspect aegislash it would probably be for its offensive presence because defensive aegislash is honestly dogshit rn while strong ghost stab is great. Weakness policy pretty much forces a trade and it has other sets like sd/spell tag which it can run to great success.

Melmetal is different than this because its what makes breaking steel really hard. It can live a hit from typical steel breakers like Galarian moltres, hydreigon, Zeraora, and Nidoking and fuck them/a lot of things that threaten to switch in. It can single handedly fuck up types like dark dragon and poison while being really good in other mus considering its offensive presence combined with its bulk can force a trade really easily in certain scenarios. I’d say it’s only really hard to tell melmetals effect on the metagame cause it’s not used really often and is a pokemon that can be dropped easily on the type but great against the rest of the meta.

While discussion is happening, it would be cool to see what people think about galartres and whether or not it’s suspect/ban worthy.

 

[icyruios]

Hello I really like your post and all the discussion; and I think it’s a good discussion to have regarding steel which has been infamous in mono for as long as it has existed. I’d like to address some points as to why i personally disagree with steels defensive core being too much.

If you think about what types are good right now, things like water, electric, ground, fire, fairy, poison, psychic, flying, and dark come up. Steels defensive core is super scary on paper, but pretty much all of these types have something to beat it without running some insane dogshit set that isn’t useful anywhere else. You mention psychic having trouble with steel, but there are pokemon like Victini, glowking, Slowbro, and mew that are extremely good against steel and are great in psychic to begin with. There are plenty of steel breakers across the metagame that make the type manageable, Galarian moltres can pretty much 6-0 it (lol), hydreigon, landorus-t, thundurus-t, nidoking, Zeraora, zapdos, volcanion… the list goes on and on. It’s true that steel covers its weaknesses really well to the point where natural mad matchups aren’t too favored for them, but why is that an issue? As long as steels defensive core isn’t too oppressive, then there’s no problem with just keeping things the way they are. Preparing for steel is no different than preparing for another defensive core like poison’s(which I’d argue is stronger than steels) or flying’s. If we were to resuspect aegislash it would probably be for its offensive presence because defensive aegislash is honestly dogshit rn while strong ghost stab is great. Weakness policy pretty much forces a trade and it has other sets like sd/spell tag which it can run to great success.

Melmetal is different than this because its what makes breaking steel really hard. It can live a hit from typical steel breakers like Galarian moltres, hydreigon, Zeraora, and Nidoking and fuck them/a lot of things that threaten to switch in. It can single handedly fuck up types like dark dragon and poison while being really good in other mus considering its offensive presence combined with its bulk can force a trade really easily in certain scenarios. I’d say it’s only really hard to tell melmetals effect on the metagame cause it’s not used really often and is a pokemon that can be dropped easily on the type but great against the rest of the meta.

While discussion is happening, it would be cool to see what people think about galartres and whether or not it’s suspect/ban worthy.

If anything, I feel Flying core is on par or maybe even better than Steel. Ice weakness? Corviknight/Celesteela/SkarmoryMantine. Electric weakness? Landorus-T/Thundurus/Thundurus-T. Rock weakness? The Steel Trio/Zapdos-G. Those I mentioned all make super effective hits neutral or immune. Not only that, a lot of flying types have recovery Roost, compared to Steel which will slowly get chipped with only Corviknight/Skarmory having roost. Everything else has to recover via leftovers/Leech Seed.

Lets say even if Melmetal comes in, it probably need to switch in safety. It cannot switch in on an incoming hit that can potentially remove half of its HP. Like Melmetal (Assault Vest) is good against Nidoking, but it's not like it can come in and eat a hit because it will die the next round. Steel team will probably need to sacrifice a mon for Melmetal to switch in. And if opponent chooses to stay in and that is their problem, but they can easily switch out. Switch into a Hydreigon? That Hydreigon probably already has a Nasty Plot up and your Melmetal will be eating a +2 Flamethrower while it breaks the sub, or just eat a choice specs Flamethrower. I don't even know how people are saying Melmetal can destroy Victini. a CB Melmetal Earthquake kills Victini but a CB Victini V-Create kills Melmetal and is faster so it will win. If it's a sub-Victini, Melmetal is slower and it will die after breaking the sub anyways. Playing against Moltres-G is playing against Flinch.

Then about using Protect to scout, doesn't it also work the other way? If you manage to predict that they are going to use Protect to scout then it's a free switch for you. Isn't guessing and predicting opponent's moves part of what this is about?

I mean I might be wrong about these stuff it's just my observations

 

[mushamu]

If anything, I feel Flying core is on par or maybe even better than Steel. Ice weakness? Corviknight/Celesteela/SkarmoryMantine. Electric weakness? Landorus-T/Thundurus/Thundurus-T. Rock weakness? The Steel Trio/Zapdos-G. Those I mentioned all make super effective hits neutral or immune. Not only that, a lot of flying types have recovery Roost, compared to Steel which will slowly get chipped with only Corviknight/Skarmory having roost. Everything else has to recover via leftovers/Leech Seed.

Lets say even if Melmetal comes in, it probably need to switch in safety. It cannot switch in on an incoming hit that can potentially remove half of its HP. Like Melmetal (Assault Vest) is good against Nidoking, but it's not like it can come in and eat a hit because it will die the next round. Steel team will probably need to sacrifice a mon for Melmetal to switch in. And if opponent chooses to stay in and that is their problem, but they can easily switch out. Switch into a Hydreigon? That Hydreigon probably already has a Nasty Plot up and your Melmetal will be eating a +2 Flamethrower while it breaks the sub, or just eat a choice specs Flamethrower. I don't even know how people are saying Melmetal can destroy Victini. a CB Melmetal Earthquake kills Victini but a CB Victini V-Create kills Melmetal and is faster so it will win. If it's a sub-Victini, Melmetal is slower and it will die after breaking the sub anyways. Playing against Moltres-G is playing against Flinch.

Then about using Protect to scout, doesn't it also work the other way? If you manage to predict that they are going to use Protect to scout then it's a free switch for you. Isn't guessing and predicting opponent's moves part of what this is about?

I mean I might be wrong about these stuff it's just my observations

With the right spread/assault vest you can switch in once without sacking a mon and that’s usually enough considering neither of dark or dragon have a steel resist and are forced to pick. I’m not sure who said melmetal owns Victini but it doesn’t win the 1v1. It can threaten psy if it’s sub but that’s about it. I feel like we should be focusing on what’s actually oppressive/unhealthy rather than what’s good since both steel and flyings defensive cores can be described as strong but not impossible to break.

Playing against gmolt is much more than just praying you don’t get flinched. It has a lot of utility options and great bulk/typing which make it a pain in the nuts to deal with for a lot of types. Taunt stops a lot of defensive counter play and there’s only a select few pokemon that can ohko it without activating berserk and getting ohkoed back at +3. Fiery wrath being able to fish for flinch is just the cherry on top.

 

[thelegendsrevamped]

Hello I really like your post and all the discussion; and I think it’s a good discussion to have regarding steel which has been infamous in mono for as long as it has existed. I’d like to address some points as to why i personally disagree with steels defensive core being too much.

If you think about what types are good right now, things like water, electric, ground, fire, fairy, poison, psychic, flying, and dark come up. Steels defensive core is super scary on paper, but pretty much all of these types have something to beat it without running some insane dogshit set that isn’t useful anywhere else. You mention psychic having trouble with steel, but there are pokemon like Victini, glowking, Slowbro, and mew that are extremely good against steel and are great in psychic to begin with. There are plenty of steel breakers across the metagame that make the type manageable, Galarian moltres can pretty much 6-0 it (lol), hydreigon, landorus-t, thundurus-t, nidoking, Zeraora, zapdos, volcanion… the list goes on and on. It’s true that steel covers its weaknesses really well to the point where natural mad matchups aren’t too favored for them, but why is that an issue? As long as steels defensive core isn’t too oppressive, then there’s no problem with just keeping things the way they are. Preparing for steel is no different than preparing for another defensive core like poison’s(which I’d argue is stronger than steels) or flying’s. If we were to resuspect aegislash it would probably be for its offensive presence because defensive aegislash is honestly dogshit rn while strong ghost stab is great. Weakness policy pretty much forces a trade and it has other sets like sd/spell tag which it can run to great success.

Melmetal is different than this because its what makes breaking steel really hard. It can live a hit from typical steel breakers like Galarian moltres, hydreigon, Zeraora, and Nidoking and fuck them/a lot of things that threaten to switch in. It can single handedly fuck up types like dark dragon and poison while being really good in other mus considering its offensive presence combined with its bulk can force a trade really easily in certain scenarios. I’d say it’s only really hard to tell melmetals effect on the metagame cause it’s not used really often and is a pokemon that can be dropped easily on the type but great against the rest of the meta.

While discussion is happening, it would be cool to see what people think about galartres and whether or not it’s suspect/ban worthy.

Yes, while some mons can be painful for steel to handle like Galarian Moltres can sub and sweep on mons but It rly can come in on Melmetal until its chipped hard which means u need to trade mons again this shows how much pressure Melmetal can up on the teams and coming to the discussion of Galarian Moltres In my opinion it is suspect test worthy with its nice 90/90/125 bulk especially on the special side but yea while It can put some major dents in the team or straight up clean them in late game it suffered with not being able to setup vs offensively oriented teams but on special side it can tank some big hits especially behind screens
Here are some calc
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar through Light Screen: 192-226 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
although some sets run more bulk I'm taking this set into consideration as seen above it can even tank a Moonblast from specs Tapu Lele behind screens and the screens support from Grimsnarl+ocassional rocks support from Krookodile makes it very threatening to handle coupled with its amazing ability in berserk
+3 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 327-385 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO Tapu Fini also struggles to act a check to Galarian Moltres if it is not setup beforehandedly and has potential sweeping capabilities while Tapu Fini doesnt do much damage in return
0 SpA Tapu Fini Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres-Galar through Light Screen: 43-52 (13.3 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
TLDR: While I prioritize Melmetal suspect test to be essential Galarian Moltres especially its double dance and rest talk set are really good it has the potential to get suspect tested in my opinion

 

[thelegendsrevamped]

If anything, I feel Flying core is on par or maybe even better than Steel. Ice weakness? Corviknight/Celesteela/SkarmoryMantine. Electric weakness? Landorus-T/Thundurus/Thundurus-T. Rock weakness? The Steel Trio/Zapdos-G. Those I mentioned all make super effective hits neutral or immune. Not only that, a lot of flying types have recovery Roost, compared to Steel which will slowly get chipped with only Corviknight/Skarmory having roost. Everything else has to recover via leftovers/Leech Seed.

Lets say even if Melmetal comes in, it probably need to switch in safety. It cannot switch in on an incoming hit that can potentially remove half of its HP. Like Melmetal (Assault Vest) is good against Nidoking, but it's not like it can come in and eat a hit because it will die the next round. Steel team will probably need to sacrifice a mon for Melmetal to switch in. And if opponent chooses to stay in and that is their problem, but they can easily switch out. Switch into a Hydreigon? That Hydreigon probably already has a Nasty Plot up and your Melmetal will be eating a +2 Flamethrower while it breaks the sub, or just eat a choice specs Flamethrower. I don't even know how people are saying Melmetal can destroy Victini. a CB Melmetal Earthquake kills Victini but a CB Victini V-Create kills Melmetal and is faster so it will win. If it's a sub-Victini, Melmetal is slower and it will die after breaking the sub anyways. Playing against Moltres-G is playing against Flinch.

Then about using Protect to scout, doesn't it also work the other way? If you manage to predict that they are going to use Protect to scout then it's a free switch for you. Isn't guessing and predicting opponent's moves part of what this is about?

I mean I might be wrong about these stuff it's just my observations

And this is when your opponent plays aggressively imo if you play aggressively with Melmetal they really need to sacrifice a pokemon for things to come it and I don't think we have any Pokemon on mono dark that beats Melmetal 1v1 especially Assault vest variants cant be taken down by Hydreigon single handedly and u might suddenly lose your steel killer and for Hydreigon to beat it 1v1 u need Melmetal chipped which is not so easy to do considering You need to sacrifice a Pokemon for that
252 SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 180-214 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This calc shows how deadly Melmetal can be
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 354-421 (74.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with Nidoking you need some chip to take on Melmetal 1v1
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Moment of silence for people who think they can switch into fully defensive Hippodown vs Banded Melmetal
TLDR:The ability to pressure offensive checks as they need some chip to beat it 1v1 and defensive checks are like soft checks imo even fully phydef hippo cant take 2 banded dib this much pressure is too much for this meta to handle imo it needs to get suspect tested immediately

Melmetal really needs to go.

 

[risinguptothetop]

If anything, I feel Flying core is on par or maybe even better than Steel. Ice weakness? Corviknight/Celesteela/SkarmoryMantine. Electric weakness? Landorus-T/Thundurus/Thundurus-T. Rock weakness? The Steel Trio/Zapdos-G. Those I mentioned all make super effective hits neutral or immune. Not only that, a lot of flying types have recovery Roost, compared to Steel which will slowly get chipped with only Corviknight/Skarmory having roost. Everything else has to recover via leftovers/Leech Seed.

Lets say even if Melmetal comes in, it probably need to switch in safety. It cannot switch in on an incoming hit that can potentially remove half of its HP. Like Melmetal (Assault Vest) is good against Nidoking, but it's not like it can come in and eat a hit because it will die the next round. Steel team will probably need to sacrifice a mon for Melmetal to switch in. And if opponent chooses to stay in and that is their problem, but they can easily switch out. Switch into a Hydreigon? That Hydreigon probably already has a Nasty Plot up and your Melmetal will be eating a +2 Flamethrower while it breaks the sub, or just eat a choice specs Flamethrower. I don't even know how people are saying Melmetal can destroy Victini. a CB Melmetal Earthquake kills Victini but a CB Victini V-Create kills Melmetal and is faster so it will win. If it's a sub-Victini, Melmetal is slower and it will die after breaking the sub anyways. Playing against Moltres-G is playing against Flinch.

Then about using Protect to scout, doesn't it also work the other way? If you manage to predict that they are going to use Protect to scout then it's a free switch for you. Isn't guessing and predicting opponent's moves part of what this is about?

I mean I might be wrong about these stuff it's just my observations

Atleast half of the mons on standard flying don't run roost. The mons that consistently run it are Corv/Skarm which are on steel too. Celesteela has leech seed recovery but that is available to Ferrothorn as well, also considering Ferro can come in set up seeds to heal a team member(Yes, it's inconsistent but can be worthwhile on certain occasions). I do agree that Flying is indeed a great type with a great core though (I'm not trying to compare the two).
Getting back to Melmetal, the reason it's unhealthy is it's pinning back most of the metagame from having a bit of freeedom. You find yourself either having a designated check for it (but still unable to prevent those holes from being punched like I previously stated) or no check at all and all the natural checks are dealt with thanks to the core that needs no introduction. Side Note: CB Victini gets walled by the aforementioned core.
At this point I'm beating a dead horse, I just need to gain inner satisfaction by seeing it getting at minimum a suspect.

 

[thelegendsrevamped]

The fact that Melmetal wasn't banned all these days amuses me that Pokemon is Bull Shit its got no switchins it can solo many types and force a sac or two when ever it comes in on others there is nothing more than half of types can do vs it like and too add the icing the immunity core screens thunder wave support to flinch down stall Pokemon ability to live some hard hits can retaliate back with a ko or 2hko for sure there is no really justifiable reason to let it remain its coming to its stats 135/143/65 bulk Is just op combined with Assault Vest and humongous hp stat to skyrocket its special bulk and a 143 base attack stat is just like hell with extra steps Banning Melmetal will make the meta healthy and more competitive In My Opinion.
TLDR: Fucking suspect test it already man you realize how broken it is right.

 

[Unlimited Breadsticks]

I'll admit I'm not too deep into the current meta but I was trying to help a friend build a mono-fairy team because most of their favorite Pokemon are fairies, and I'm struggling to think of another mon that completely invalidates entire types quite like Melmetal does. I can't be the only person who considers it something of an issue that you just can't reliably use certain types because they are completely shut down by a single Pokemon. I mean all you really need is to look at the chart wkxkevin put up and see how few things can stand up to its primary STAB with maximum defensive investment, and that's ignoring its coverage potential. If there's another Pokemon out there that has a presence that's comparable to how oppressive Melmetal's is, I'd love to hear it.