Suspect SS BH Suspect Test #3: Break Free [SHELL SMASH BANNED]

[Cringerboi42]

GL Volkner Thanks for the feedback.

I will admit that I only have started playing recently, so I don't exactly know the ins and outs of the meta like you probably do. I was just suggesting why I personally believe that Shell Smash should be banned. I don't think it should be banned.

OK, I'll admit the revenge killers paragraph wasn't the strongest. I think that one of your counterpoints was that the Pokemon that defended against Shell Smash had to be healthy, which, over the course of a long battle, they usually aren't. I was thinking that people Shell Smashed fairly early on in a game, so you'll usually have a few fresh guys to take care of the threat, I wasn't aware that Contrary was banned so thanks for that. I also didn't know that You got your original ability back after switching from Skill Swap.

I mentioned Trick Room because even though it only lasts a few turns, that's still enough time for you dispatch the opposing Pokemon since you're now faster against an opponent with lesser defences. I did however, to forget to mention how Focus Sash requires a lot to active as rocks are a big problem and requires things like Taunt or Rapid Spin to get rid of. That's why I suggested Taunt, as it allows for more control over rocks and smash. But thanks for the advice as I didn't account for Magic Bounce.

All in all, I appreciate the feedback and I can see that you've been playing this format for much more then I have, I don't want to see Shell Smash banned, so I wanted to make an argument for why it shouldn't be. Since I've only started playing BH, It's hard for me to now what abilities and moves were popular in the meta since it's the format where giant metal dogs can spew poison and regenerate from explosions.

Thanks for everything :)

 

[Wiso Altred]

hello everyone, since this suspect test was going on and lots of esteemed players were on i figured this would be a good time to conduct a neat science experiment to help me learn more about the game. my goal was to find out whether or not i was the greatest balanced hackmons player of all time.

to ensure that my results were consistent, i did most of my laddering at 5 am gmt (10 pm for me), meaning that i didnt play anyone above 1400 elo (ensuring that i only got the most integral of players, anyone in the palm of Big Elo was not worth my time, to put it nicely). i used the mid-ladder ou player-tier double scarf dragon balance that i used in ompl. here's how it went:

now, if you look at the screenshot, you may notice that there is a 2 under the L, indicating that i actually lost a game twice. however, i decided to use the analytical reasoning that i learned in my high school science classes. taking a closer look at these games, you can see that i lost because i actually tried to engage with the opponents team rather than playing hyper conservatively. i personally think this is lame as hell, and decided to not count the losses as a result.

in conclusion, i got no losses in 35 games. i didn't scroll through this whole thread but i'm pretty sure no one else has done that yet. given the fair and reasonable testing method i used, i think it is safe to say that i am the greatest balanced hackmons player of all time. i look forward to seeing what other respected scientists think of this work.

one more thing, i noticed that there was a shell smash suspect going on on the side. since i have undeniably proven myself to be the best of the best, i thought i could weigh in here and give my opinion on what was best for the meta. i wrote a 43,000 word tl;dr describing my thoughts which you can read here: https://pastebin.com/sT2hkt5

thank you all for reading.

I feel as if there was just the slightest, just the ever smallest sense of sarcasm in your voice, but I can't tell. Therefore, as we are all respectable members of the community, I am going to take this post at face value completely. And further disregard the brief thoughts rule and just post a gigantic wall of text here.

So you're telling me.
This isn't the most broken set you've ever seen?

Don't play PS at 3 AM

Well it's time I bring out the science team. You want best player's opinion? Alright. You got it.

There are only 3 and a half days left for this req post to even end, but there's only two ways this'll go down. I'm going to go for 45 games, 0 losses. And I'm going to go for a high amount of ELO, and I'm going to make sure I'm online when "The most integral players" are present. Unfortunatley, the entire BH ladder is just Dimrah's alt accounts. Some mine to be fair. But I got like 3 people I know for sure still play. Either I'm going to get this, or i'm going to get this half-way because laddering takes forever in this meta-game after like 1650.

See you in 3 days.

 

[pazza]

got reqs s/o fwq and pileo cuz i used their teams almost went undefeated but alas

toadandhishaxx
Inkreativ

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

My first time voting for a suspect :))

I'm going to vote No Ban.

Even thought shell smash can be extremely obnoxious and has the ability to break through many teams for many of the aforementioned reasons, my personal opinion is that there are still a lot of counters to it, so it should not be banned yet. An extensively used argument is that it puts a lot of strain on team building in general and severely limits the meta. This is all very true, but I feel like this issue is accentuated because of the decreased pokemon diversity this generation. For example, last gen we had very viable unaware mons such as Audino, Yveltal, and Gyrados-Mega. However, this generation unaware is just not as great, partially because the pokemon we have available: Umbreon, Mandibuzz, Melmetal or even Incineroar don't really compare well to the previous pokemon listed. I believe, we should at least wait until the next expansion pack when legendaries such as Yveltal come back to make a decision. If shell smash still remains as obnoxious and limiting to the meta as it is now then I might change my opinion on it.

Also, as another note, for me a reality of bh has always been that one wrong move can spell the end of the game. And this has to always be taken into consideration in every match. The fact that anyone can use shell smash and sweep has to always be accounted for. It's what made bh challenging, and for me fun as well. The more things we ban, the more bh to me is losing it's identity (rip Shed lol). Bh is a meta which attempts to be as flexible as possible (obv not on ph's level) but the more things we ban the less flexible bh gets, and the more it loses its identity and appeal, especially to newer players.

On a side note: I'm not sure how I got to 83.3% gxe by going 31-4 but here I am. If anyone is interested here's the team I used: Team
Oddly enough, the one shell smash pokemon I did have was the least effective member of my team.

*Peace*

 

[MAMP]

View attachment 244166
My first time voting for a suspect :))

I'm going to vote No Ban.

Even thought shell smash can be extremely obnoxious and has the ability to break through many teams for many of the aforementioned reasons, my personal opinion is that there are still a lot of counters to it, so it should not be banned yet. An extensively used argument is that it puts a lot of strain on team building in general and severely limits the meta. This is all very true, but I feel like this issue is accentuated because of the decreased pokemon diversity this generation. For example, last gen we had very viable unaware mons such as Audino, Yveltal, and Gyrados-Mega. However, this generation unaware is just not as great, partially because the pokemon we have available: Umbreon, Mandibuzz, Melmetal or even Incineroar don't really compare well to the previous pokemon listed. I believe, we should at least wait until the next expansion pack when legendaries such as Yveltal come back to make a decision. If shell smash still remains as obnoxious and limiting to the meta as it is now then I might change my opinion on it.

Also, as another note, for me a reality of bh has always been that one wrong move can spell the end of the game. And this has to always be taken into consideration in every match. The fact that anyone can use shell smash and sweep has to always be accounted for. It's what made bh challenging, and for me fun as well. The more things we ban, the more bh to me is losing it's identity (rip Shed lol). Bh is a meta which attempts to be as flexible as possible (obv not on ph's level) but the more things we ban the less flexible bh gets, and the more it loses its identity and appeal, especially to newer players.

On a side note: I'm not sure how I got to 83.3% gxe by going 31-4 but here I am. If anyone is interested here's the team I used: Team
Oddly enough, the one shell smash pokemon I did have was the least effective member of my team.

*Peace*

In regards to the point about DLC: this suspect is not for the future DLC metagame, it is for this metagame that we have right now. Please don't vote based on what the metagame may be like once the DLC is released, that isn't relevant to this suspect. If we decide to ban Shell Smash here, we may retest it upon the release of all the DLC.

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

In regards to the point about DLC: this suspect is not for the future DLC metagame, it is for this metagame that we have right now. Please don't vote based on what the metagame may be like once the DLC is released, that isn't relevant to this suspect. If we decide to ban Shell Smash here, we may retest it upon the release of all the DLC.

Okay yeah fair point. I guess you can just invalidate that portion of my explanation then. I still stand by the other things I said though. And I'll just reemphasize that I believe there are still a lot of counters to shell smash right now and when played correctly can still be effective, which is the main reason for my vote.

 

[DF-Shock]

I will vote BAN. Why?

1- Shell Smash Spam HO
This kind of HO abuses Shell Smash and Focus Sash to annihilate the opposing team which too often cannot do much. These HO put too much pressure on Pranksters (who are supposed to be anti-setup pokemons), destroys the Fur Coat / Ice Scales cores because the threats are either mixed or have moves that handicap them (Spore / Taunt) like some Simple Shell Smash users... Due to natural bulk / Dynamax / Focus Sash, they are hard to revenge kill with priority. because with the speed boost, you can't outspeed it easily. You can run an imposter Scarf (the most reasonable solution to deal with it for me), but Imposter-proof or Focus Sash could win against it.
It is hard to handle it, it is hard to revenge kill, how do you handle this kind of HO?

2-Mixed Sweeper
The meta SS lacks diversity. Most pokémons are of the Steel type, and those that are not are often weak in the Fighting or Ground type. In addition, it is quite hard to find a mixed wall that could counter this kind of strategy. Like above, revenge kill is hard because of their natural bulk / Dynamax. The Mixed Sweepers take advantage of this lack to play sets that are difficult to hold if you don't have THE pokemon that is able to hold it.

An exemple

Against a Magic Guard Life Orb Reshiram with Shell Smash / Dynamax Cannon / Blue Flare / Close Combat, Primarina Ice Scales seems to be a good check.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Reshiram Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 127-149 (34.8 - 40.9%) -- 71.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ice Scales Primarina: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 9.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

But against a Desolate Land Reshiram with Shell Smash...
+2 252 Atk Reshiram V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina in Harsh Sunshine: 329-387 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

You don't have only Reshiram, but also Zekrom, NDM, Solgaleo, Mewtwo, Kyurem who can run an effective mixed Shell Smash set and lure their check. In addition to the Shell Smash version, you must also manage their normal versions because Reshiram and Zekrom in particular can have dangerous sets without Shell Smash.

Conclusion :
Shell Smash Mixed Sweeper sets centralize the metagame too much, in addition to being too difficult to hold. Seriously, count the number of matches of BH SSNL or OMPL in BH have their victory due to a Shell Smash user.

For some people who will not ban Shell Smash because :
- "I found only Shell Smash Spam HO broken, we need to ban only Shell Smash + Focus Sash / Shell Smash Clause". Smogon doesn't like complexe bans like that and for me my point 2 is a really good reason to ban Shell Smash. Mixed Sweeper don't use necessarily Focus Sash because they are bulky, and centralize too much the meta. Even if you disagree with my point of view for Mixed Sweeper, if you think Shell Smash is broken in HO Spam (with the sash), ban Shell Smash seems to be a good way to nerf this, even if it isn't the "Perfect solution" for you.
- "I wait the DLC to see if Shell Smash is really broken". This suspect is for the actual meta, not the possible future meta... If something is broken now, we need to ban it as soon as possible. And think of people who main this OM and do some tournaments / ladder sessions. They need an answer now (ban or not ban), not in a month.
- "If we ban Shell Smash, we will return to a Fur Coat / Ice Scales defensive core, and it will be a pain to deal with it". If you don't ban Shell Smash because you are afraid of the future meta, you are wrong. We don't vote ban or not ban according to the pleasure we will have with the future meta, but we vote if we find that the object of the suspect deserves to be banned or not. If this kind of core centralize a lot the future meta, it could be suspected. And just my opinion, you still have good wallbreaker without Shell Smash.
- "The more things we ban, the less flexible BH gets, and it loses its identity and appeal, especially to newer players.". It is a reason why Balanced Hackmons is called like that. If something seems to be too broken, we need to suspect it and if the problem is real ban it. Even if beginners like to play this kind of sets. Remember Illusion in gen7bh, it was fun to run it sometimes on the ladder but for tournament players, it was horrible to play with it. Illusion was banned for that, and it was legit.

I believe there are still a lot of counters to shell smash right now and when played correctly can still be effective, which is the main reason for my vote.

Really? In that case show us these counterplays ^^! The only viable counterplay to stop some Shell Smash user I see, it is Imposter Scarf but the opponent could improof it well.
Here it is a pokepast with some Shell Smash set, and just want to see what will be your check : https://pokepast.es/89025860cd124ffd
And even if you find all the possible check for all these sets, do you think you will run all of your checks in case of you see one of these Shell Smash sets?

 

[Dragonillis]

I will vote DNB only trigger Matiss98 and DF-Shock

I'm kidding, but idk what i'll vote.
DF-shock explains perfectly why i'm mixed.

With shell smash, it's easy to have a mixed pokemon, for break the defensive cores, it's a (too) offensive metagame for me, one mistake and you're dead.
But without shell smash, it's probably be too balanced/fat metagame, and have each battle during 100-150 isn't me, same for beginner (for a renewal of the metagame, you also need beginner, new people, curious people). Maybe i wrong (and i hope) because we have soon DLC.

For finish this message, i have a thought for my little sister, for making me listen to this music throughout the suspect test

 

[Nihilslave]

Gen 8 bh is not fun. But I'm not sure if it will be better after the smash ban.
By the way, I use the team which I built last year to run for this suspect.

 

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

Really? In that case show us these counterplays ^^! The only viable counterplay to stop some Shell Smash user I see, it is Imposter Scarf but the opponent could improof it well.
Here it is a pokepast with some Shell Smash set, and just want to see what will be your check : https://pokepast.es/89025860cd124ffd
And even if you find all the possible check for all these sets, do you think you will run all of your checks in case of you see one of these Shell Smash sets?

I understand where you're coming from and yeah it is very hard, and in general it's a little difficult to explain counter play to shell smash because it is often situational to your team (sorry I don't have replays). Regardless, when team building a plan is necessary. What I do when I see a shell smash mon is, if I have an offensive pokemon in, I will always click a move. My number one priority would be to try and break a sash if there is one, or possiblly kill them (but most ppl wouldn't put a pokemon in that can't tank a move and then proceed to shell smash). If I have a defensive pokemon in, I will usually go for teleport into a prankster pokemon with haze/topsy-turvy or I will go into a mon that I believe won't get ohkoed and use spectral thief. After spectral thief if your mon has an offensive move you gain a ton of momentum. Or I would use teleport and then go into an imposter pokemon which will do its thing. Or the slow spectral thief also kinda shuts down a shell smash user if you won't get 2hkoed by a move pre shell smash. Also a pokemon with focus sash and spectral thief also works. This is usually my strategy when approaching shell smash teams / pokemon. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. There are other strategies as well. If you were looking for a different answer (ik these "counter plays" may be a bit repetitive) I'm sorry I couldn't provide that. Also: Not every team can check every team. A team will eventually come across a team which will counter it effectively so no I don't expect to build a team which can counter every shell smash variant, nor to do I expect to build a team which can counter all variants a stall team can have.

Below I listed some mons that I came up with that won't get 2hkoed even after shell smash by your said sets (there are prob more too).

Reshiram 1: Aegislash (Flash Fire), Zacian (Primordial Sea), Primarina (AV/regen, Ice scales, poison heal)
Reshiram 2: Aegislash (Flash Fire), Zacian (Primordial Sea)
Zekrom: Primarina (lightning rod), Steelix (Fur Coat), Runerigus (Fur Coat), Zamazenta-Crowned (Unaware), Rhydon (Fur Coat)
Obstagoon: Zamazenta-Crowned (Fur Coat, Unaware)
Kyurem-Black: Sassy Melmetal (unaware or prankster)...walls it barely tho, Golisopod (poison heal or fur coat), Zamazenta-Crowned (Ice scales or Regen-AV), Zamazenta-Crowned (Unaware)
Necrozma: Mandibuzz (unaware), Umbreon (unaware)

 

[Cheezy]

This is probably too late to matter but I vote ban.

 

[Wiso Altred]

I understand where you're coming from and yeah it is very hard, and in general it's a little difficult to explain counter play to shell smash because it is often situational to your team (sorry I don't have replays). Regardless, when team building a plan is necessary. What I do when I see a shell smash mon is, if I have an offensive pokemon in, I will always click a move. My number one priority would be to try and break a sash if there is one, or possiblly kill them (but most ppl wouldn't put a pokemon in that can't tank a move and then proceed to shell smash). If I have a defensive pokemon in, I will usually go for teleport into a prankster pokemon with haze/topsy-turvy or I will go into a mon that I believe won't get ohkoed and use spectral thief. After spectral thief if your mon has an offensive move you gain a ton of momentum. Or I would use teleport and then go into an imposter pokemon which will do its thing. Or the slow spectral thief also kinda shuts down a shell smash user if you won't get 2hkoed by a move pre shell smash. Also a pokemon with focus sash and spectral thief also works. This is usually my strategy when approaching shell smash teams / pokemon. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. There are other strategies as well. If you were looking for a different answer (ik these "counter plays" may be a bit repetitive) I'm sorry I couldn't provide that. Also: Not every team can check every team. A team will eventually come across a team which will counter it effectively so no I don't expect to build a team which can counter every shell smash variant, nor to do I expect to build a team which can counter all variants a stall team can have.

Below I listed some mons that I came up with that won't get 2hkoed even after shell smash by your said sets (there are prob more too).

Reshiram 1: Aegislash (Flash Fire), Zacian (Primordial Sea), Primarina (AV/regen, Ice scales, poison heal)
Reshiram 2: Aegislash (Flash Fire), Zacian (Primordial Sea)
Zekrom: Primarina (lightning rod), Steelix (Fur Coat), Runerigus (Fur Coat), Zamazenta-Crowned (Unaware), Rhydon (Fur Coat)
Obstagoon: Zamazenta-Crowned (Fur Coat, Unaware)
Kyurem-Black: Sassy Melmetal (unaware or prankster)...walls it barely tho, Golisopod (poison heal or fur coat), Zamazenta-Crowned (Ice scales or Regen-AV), Zamazenta-Crowned (Unaware)
Necrozma: Mandibuzz (unaware), Umbreon (unaware)

While I see what you're trying to do. I have to say, those "checks" aren't really that viable. Specially running something as cheese as a primodial sea zacian just for one pokemon. That's hindering and it doesn't really work against any other pokemon as a consequence. It's better to try and counter play than have something that outright walls it completely. Although I won't deny that stuff like Ice scales and furcoat can easily punch out a significant amount of shellsmashers who aren't perfectly mixed with the correct move against your specific wall.

I know you acknolwedge some of this in your post, but the ideas provided to "Play-well" at first and stating the lack of perfect teams isnt quite helpful. The point is how shell smash stresses teams, and teambuilding. Having to make sure you can counter it and using specific mons for it is the claimed issue. I still think you're right, but only on the terms that removing shellsmash won't fix the issue. It'll just make balanced teams/stall more prominent, or create simple no Retreat sets that are going to have to be specifically walled anyway. And all that does is restrict team building, but this time, both on the offensive and defensive side.

 

[Funbot28]

Shell Smash has been banned from BH!

Thank you for everyone who has participated