Suspect SS BH Suspect Test #2: Giants

[Funbot28]

What?
BH Council is beginning a suspect on Dynamax as per discussion in the Balanced Hackmons thread and discord (see below)

Why?
(Discussion has taken place from the beginning of the meta, but some relevant posts on the matter can be seen here, here, here, here, and here)

• Dynamax, the shiny new feature of Generation 8, allows the user to double its HP and gain access to powerful Max Moves for a maximum of three turns (as the mechanic ends upon removing the mon from battle).
• Other features of Dynamaxing, at least the ones most relevant to Balanced Hackmons, include:
  • Breaking choice locks from items like Choice Band, shaking off Encore to attack with Max Moves
  • Becoming immune to moves like Low Kick, Entrainment, and Whirlwind
  • Becoming immune to flinching
  • Becoming immune to Destiny Bond.
• The aforementioned features have caused concern from the community, which has expressed how the Dynamax mechanic introduces an uncompetitive aspect into the metagame via 50/50 situations that can sometimes determine the outcome of a battle.
  • An example: Choice Specs Reshiram uses Blue Flare as Flash Fire Melmetal switches in to check it. Reshiram, carrying Earth Power, has the option to break its choice lock by Dynamaxing and 2HKO Melmetal with Max Quake or to switch out to a teammate that handles Melmetal. Meanwhile, Melmetal can do little in return and is punished for staying in to trap or pivot on the opponent if the Reshiram Dynamaxes.
• These features also make revenge killing offensive threats more difficult, particularly due to the increased bulk but also due to being immune to flinching and Destiny Bond.
• Counterplay Dynamax does exist, though. Plus, as stated before, it only lasts three turns and can only be used once per battle.
  • Retaliating by Dynamaxing your mon to fight back with its own Max Moves or protect with Max Guard
  • Countering with moves like Behemoth Blade and Dynamax Cannon, which deal double damage to Dynamaxed targets.
  • Using pivoting moves like U-turn or Volt Switch on offensive Pokemon to scout for opponents using Dynamax as a means to revenge kill or survive an attack that would normally KO (this is followed by switching to an appropriate teammate after pivoting)
  • A more niche option is wasting the opponent’s Dynamax turns with use of Substitute, but this requires either a fast user or Prankster user and takes up a valuable moveslot.

How?

• We will be using the new suspect process laid out by Zarel here (aka no COIL).
• Therefore the requirements are simply 83 GXE with at least 45 games.
• Do so by making a new alt with the sequence “MAX” in it anywhere, but not separated.
• The alt must have a creation date on or after March 13, 2020

MaximumDestruction (Acceptable)
MadAboutXrays (Unacceptable)

Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim.

Dynamax will be allowed in the ladder for the duration of this suspect; I would recommend using it as much as you can to get a feel of how it is in the meta and have a good idea of if it is broken/unhealthy, or if it is perfectly manageable after all.

Do:

• Post your proof of reqs and, if you wish, your stance on the matter briefly, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
  • you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. We can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
  • If you don’t do at least the above, your vote won’t be counted. We will be very strict about this.
• Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS

Do NOT:

• Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof of requirements (This should be posted in the main thread instead)
• Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)

When?
This suspect period will last until March 27th, 2020 @ 11:59 EST We will try to begin the voting process immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done and posting the Voter ID Thread similar to past suspects.

GLHF!
---
TLDR?

• 83 GXE after 45 games with a new alt
  • “MAX” alt with image proof IN THIS THREAD
• Dynamax ALLOWED on ladder
• DEADLINE: March 27th, 2020 @ 11:59 EST

Tagging The Immortal to setup suspect and announcement on PS ladder games. Thank you!

 

[Alternatif]

Reqs
#DoNotBanDyna

 

[KeeperAnthony]

An Guy Called ☆Klkmengklk dynamaxed a togekiss.

 

[dhelmise]

An Guy Called ☆Klkmengklk dynamaxed a togekiss.

Dynamax ALLOWED on ladder

 

[lepton]

reqs

the most tedious reqs to get ever. used this stupid team to get them because its easy to play while not really paying attention. ban dyna because it makes like every turn a 50/50 and thats dumb

 

[astralydia]

reqs

team used: https://pokepast.es/0568acc6c38448f3

EDIT: if you don't wanna lose to simplesmash running sucker punch or shadow sneak on gdarm over close combat is worth it

Can't really tell for sure if Dynamax is broken right now. Ladder didn't really give me much inspection on it considering the only time I was ever threatened by Dynamax was through Scarf Kyurem-White, and these losses were exclusively from SimpleSmash. But the general consensus appears to be a ban vote, and I think I'll go with that for now.

Also can we please lower the reqs down at least 10 spots it's not hard to get 83 GXE from 35 games

 

[Siamato]

Chazm why are you playing a DGZ Magic Guard CC when HJK exist ?

 

[abriel]

reqs

I tilted so hard on this, went from around 25-0 to over the game minimum. Agree that 45 games is way too many, undecided on vote currently.

 

[Andyboy]

reqs

S/o xavgb for teams. Gonna echo the general sentiment here and say that 45 games is far too much seriously please shorten it to at least 35 next time...

My thoughts

I really don't feel a mechanic like Dynamax is healthy in BH and a lot of this boils down to how it can impact so many turns of every game. It functions differently from other metas because there are multiple legendary Pokemon that can't Dynamax and Pokemon can rarely clean through a team working solely with the boosts from Max moves. However, when Pokemon have access to potent set up like Shell Smash or Quiver Dance this dynamic of set up sweepers having access to an option that spikes their bulk and power adds unpredictability and volatility to a meta that already is quite volatile. It also dramatically impacts how revenging or offensive pressure works in this meta when you always have to consider the possibility of something getting big and suddenly tanking a hit leading to a lot of the offensive mons tiptoeing around things they should be able to force out without fear. I feel the most frustrating thing about Dynamax is it skews the matchup dynamic in the meta. Games that are very difficult but winnable if they are played well can immediately become unwinnable when a threat you tiptoed around all game to finally get it into a revenge-able scenario suddenly becomes big and erases all of the effort you put in to stop it.

tl;dr I feel Dynamax is an unhealthy mechanic that adds too much variance and volatility throughout games. It further skews matchups and i've seen next to no reasoning for why it is healthy or should stay.

 

[Redflix]

Reqs

Never played bh but got reqs thanks to pileosand's team. Thnx to them for that

Leaning towards no ban , didn't get any exposure to dynamax being broken while laddering.
(45 games is alot but everyone already pointed that out)

 

[avyrie]

reqs

In short

Yes I know it leads to high stakes 50/50 and makes revenge-killing more difficult bla bla bla thanks Chessking for detailed explanation (no offense ily) but look it's just three turns of like 60 turns average in a game and is easily forced out by common special wallbreakers carrying Dynamax Cannon or just fc/scales wall (if Dynamax makes it 2HKO then it isn't that good of a check). The boosts isn't that great either, Poison is uselss and Fighting is more used specially (and Body Press) while Weather/Terrain, same as before, if walls gets 2HKO then it isn't a good check. If maxing isn't timed correctly it puts you in a disadvantageous position where your opponent could potentially overwhelm you and I think that adds more skill element to the game instead of being unhealthy. And that's just about Dynamaxing offensively. Defensively walls, when Dynamaxed, don't have much recovery other than items/Poison Heal and it just wastes one more PP on an offensive mon. Most wins I didn't even Dynamax (mostly forgot it exists shhh). No Ban, that's all. Anyways that's just my own opinion don't roast me for forgetting some unhealthy points. Also thanks Redflix for accounting for half of my loses :)

In shorter

theres a reason i use dis name yknow

edit: team used https://pokepast.es/532c3f94e4d44b42 and a few games with pileosand's, not sure how everybody is running sunsteel eq hazards zacian-crowned

 

[cityscapes]

imagine if pokemon swsh crashes a boeing

just gonna get to the point, dynamax really doesnt cause much variance from my experience. mons like cb darm cannot hope to wallbreak effectively through dynamaxing due to the loss of cb power + relatively low power of max moves and require hard callouts, which are susceptible to easy midground switches. setup sweepers just get hazed; even if your shell smash user can 2hko their prank with a max move, they can just switch out without fear of you setting up again.

if anything, i'd say that dynamax is honestly relatively healthy right now. it helps you not auto-lose to things, which is nice in this meta where it's incredibly easy to auto-lose to things. the only threatening max moves are flare and geyser but you need fat resists for each of these types anyway in order to not lose to weather teams. all other moves are extremely manageable and i have found them really easy to wall out.

spending dynamax in a position where it's not optimal can cause huge issues down the line, so players are punished for trying to quickly muscle through switchins and immediately sweep. additionally, dynamaxing favors aggression from teams that employ offensive ph users, because these pokemon are harder to endlessly wall and can break through weakened pokemon later on. fat teams can't just get away with endlessly walling with fc/ice scales, they have to make sure the ph user will actually feasibly lose at some point.

overall dynamaxing favors the skills of creating a solid gameplan and adapting to game states, and it doesn't promote uncompetitiveness in the majority of games i have seen. it might be problematic later on when the meta clears up a bit, but right now i plan on voting dnb.

 

[a loser]

I didn't have too many issues with Dynamax during this stretch, but overall I'm leaning no ban. I mostly agree with everything sl42 said above. However I did have an issue with all the randos on ladder running triple Poison Heal unsets, which along with setup spam accounted for all of my losses.

45 Games

While 45 games might seem like it drags out longer than it should, do remember that the more you play the more exposure you get to Dynamax to help you make the most informed decision possible. Sure, maybe you can get the GXE requirement after 24 games or so, but can you maintain that once you start facing some real opponents and not just low ladder?

 

[Champion Leon]

What?
BH Council is beginning a suspect on Dynamax as per discussion in the Balanced Hackmons thread and discord (see below)

Why?
(Discussion has taken place from the beginning of the meta, but some relevant posts on the matter can be seen here, here, here, here, and here)

• Dynamax, the shiny new feature of Generation 8, allows the user to double its HP and gain access to powerful Max Moves for a maximum of three turns (as the mechanic ends upon removing the mon from battle).
• Other features of Dynamaxing, at least the ones most relevant to Balanced Hackmons, include:
  • Breaking choice locks from items like Choice Band, shaking off Encore to attack with Max Moves
  • Becoming immune to moves like Low Kick, Entrainment, and Whirlwind
  • Becoming immune to flinching
  • Becoming immune to Destiny Bond.
• The aforementioned features have caused concern from the community, which has expressed how the Dynamax mechanic introduces an uncompetitive aspect into the metagame via 50/50 situations that can sometimes determine the outcome of a battle.
  • An example: Choice Specs Reshiram uses Blue Flare as Flash Fire Melmetal switches in to check it. Reshiram, carrying Earth Power, has the option to break its choice lock by Dynamaxing and 2HKO Melmetal with Max Quake or to switch out to a teammate that handles Melmetal. Meanwhile, Melmetal can do little in return and is punished for staying in to trap or pivot on the opponent if the Reshiram Dynamaxes.
• These features also make revenge killing offensive threats more difficult, particularly due to the increased bulk but also due to being immune to flinching and Destiny Bond.
• Counterplay Dynamax does exist, though. Plus, as stated before, it only lasts three turns and can only be used once per battle.
  • Retaliating by Dynamaxing your mon to fight back with its own Max Moves or protect with Max Guard
  • Countering with moves like Behemoth Blade and Dynamax Cannon, which deal double damage to Dynamaxed targets.
  • Using pivoting moves like U-turn or Volt Switch on offensive Pokemon to scout for opponents using Dynamax as a means to revenge kill or survive an attack that would normally KO (this is followed by switching to an appropriate teammate after pivoting)
  • A more niche option is wasting the opponent’s Dynamax turns with use of Substitute, but this requires either a fast user or Prankster user and takes up a valuable moveslot.

How?

• We will be using the new suspect process laid out by Zarel here (aka no COIL).
• Therefore the requirements are simply 83 GXE with at least 45 games.
• Do so by making a new alt with the sequence “MAX” in it anywhere, but not separated.
• The alt must have a creation date on or after March 13, 2020

Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim.

Dynamax will be allowed in the ladder for the duration of this suspect; I would recommend using it as much as you can to get a feel of how it is in the meta and have a good idea of if it is broken/unhealthy, or if it is perfectly manageable after all.

Do:

• Post your proof of reqs and, if you wish, your stance on the matter briefly, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
  • you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. We can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
  • If you don’t do at least the above, your vote won’t be counted. We will be very strict about this.
• Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS

Do NOT:

• Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof of requirements (This should be posted in the main thread instead)
• Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)

When?
This suspect period will last until March 27th, 2020 @ 11:59 EST We will try to begin the voting process immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done and posting the Voter ID Thread similar to past suspects.

GLHF!
---
TLDR?

• 83 GXE after 45 games with a new alt
  • “MAX” alt with image proof IN THIS THREAD
• Dynamax ALLOWED on ladder
• DEADLINE: March 27th, 2020 @ 11:59 EST

Tagging The Immortal to setup suspect and announcement on PS ladder games. Thank you!

Honestly, with the whole virus thing... worldwide, I think you should extend the deadline.

Some people are actually sick, or have to watch family members in hospitals that are.

April 7, is when this shelter in place is estimated to end.

Edit:
Mega metaboss it’s not funny when people are in critical condition. You should not make it seem funny with your reaction. That’s completely immature.

 

[a loser]

Honestly, with the whole virus thing... worldwide, I think you should extend the deadline.

Some people are actually sick, or have to watch family members in hospitals that are.

April 7, is when this shelter in place is estimated to end.

Edit:
Mega metaboss it’s not funny when people are in critical condition. You should not make it seem funny with your reaction. That’s completely immature.

The deadline will not be extended.

While we certainly hope no one gets sick and our loved ones remain healthy, if anyone's participation in this suspect test is delayed due to this virus, it seems they have much more important things to worry about.

For the rest of us, either at work or stuck at home, it seems like a pretty good time to grind out 45 games of Balanced Hackmons.

 

[Champion Leon]

The deadline will not be extended.

While we certainly hope no one gets sick and our loved ones remain healthy, if anyone's participation in this suspect test is delayed due to this virus, it seems they have much more important things to worry about.

For the rest of us, either at work or stuck at home, it seems like a pretty good time to grind out 45 games of Balanced Hackmons.

:(

It wasn’t for me, it was just in general. I felt sorry for whoever may be impacted.

Anyways, thanks for providing an answer, I wish everyone good health.

 

[Tack]

got reqs, shoutouts xavgb for teams and Mega metaboss for moral support in my second laddering session, had a tie somewhere if you're wondering about record. got ct'd 3 times so i had to play longer than average unfort

dunno what i think about dyna tbh, it doesn't seem even remotely clear cut and it has a lot of factors to it that are more interesting to look at here than say, ou

 

[InboxFiles]

Do not ban Dynamax, thanks.

 

[Wiso Altred]

https://gyazo.com/9de70de14b0e5c919f92259eb388d510

Dynamax is the only healthy thing about this game mode. Don't ban it.

The 4 match loss was 2 because I forgot I was laddering and DC'ed, 1 loss for a blue flare miss, and 1 loss because 3Dacc is bad. Dynamax is not even remotley broken and legitmately, I will admit it was a factor in helping fight off the wobbuffets here and there, or choice unlocking, but that's not broken, the enemy can just dynamax if they want to too.

Although I have to admit that the first 10 wins kinda came as be without actual useful feedback.

I was fighting a darmanitan zen and I was like "Oh shit V-create might actually hurt my team"

then zen mode activated

 

[450 dynamax]

Hey so uhh idk if this is allowed if it isnt just don't let me vote but sadly I cannot access my main smog account before the deadline.Anyway

after 3 tries I finally did it.My thoughts on dynamax is it is too strong and impactful to be so prediction reliant so I would rather have it gone.Also i dont think it being removed will limit variety as much since more stuff like encore or weight based moves/phasing etc can see more uses.The argument of it being a skill based tool falls flat the more competitive the game becomes.Sure an experienced player can use it better vs someone who doesn't know its full mechanics(ppl have tried to max me without pp and failed)but when both players consider the possibility and realise the situation it becomes a guessing game.Rly wanted tomake a funnier/memier and swaggier post(450 damn it)but sad I couldnt log on dimrah.Your turn siamato.Cheers

 

[DF-Shock]

I have my reqs, I will vote No ban.

 

[SuperSkylake]

42-3, expect an RMT with the team I used soon!

 

[Kylo3944]

I vote for no dynamax ban, thanks fwqef and loser for great teams.

 

[Siamato]

reqs

Finally this is over

Sorry in advance for my bad english :')

I think there is a lot to say about the dynamax but I unfortunately do not have the faith to write a long block explaining the pros and cons.
During my matches and within the French OM community, I was able to exchange my opinion with people like DF-Shock , tzop , Tack :] and others during interesting discussions presenting arguments for or against ban.

What is presented in the thread by the council summarizes very well the strengths of the dynamax:

• Possible 50/50 when you want rk. This can force us to leave an advantageous position "just" because of fear of the dynamax which could completely reverse this situation. It is the unpredictable and "reversing" side of the dynamax and surely the biggest problem. These situations occur more often in late game and are therefore capable of decisively influencing the latter.

• Cancellation of choice-lock. It is the other major force of the dynamax causing 50/50 potentials. This is especially true on Pokémon like DGZ, Zeraora or Zama band.

• Cancels common BH mechanics such as Prank Destiny Bond / Encore saving yourself from a complicated situation. Besides that, minor mechanics like Whirlwind, Disable don't work either. We no longer play moves like Low Kick, Heavy Slam, Heat Crash due to the fear of dynamax.

Yes, but:

• If you are afraid of an opposing dynamax to prevent you from rk, technically you can play safe and switch. You can also dynamax yourself. However, it means losing an advantageous position / resource for something that may not even happen. Some people see this situation as pure classic strategy and it's a way of seeing things I think.

• The cancellation of the choice-lock causes loss of power therefore, this is not what helps to pass a counter. On the other hand it can help to pass checks, more common in BH. In short, a Zeraora who dynamax to hit Max Overgrowth on a Seismitoad is that, basically, was able to lure Seismitoad and kill him. However, the skill level between good anticipation and clicking dyna is not the same. The predict creates a mindgame on "Does he have Power Whip or not? Will he use it?". The dyna is the same with one more "He did not click Power Whip while anticipating me but does he have it anyway? Will he dynamax to use it?". There is both skill in these reflections and also an unhealthy side.

• The dynamax cancels certain mechanics but for its part it can help to avoid an opposing sweep with the bulk in addition like Destiny Bonb prank which saves from an opposing sweep. Just like we can see the Destiny prank coming, we can see the dynamax coming. Climate change can also help to save yourself from a rain. These are interesting parts of the dynamax.

In short, all that to say that, although I got the reqs, I don't know what to vote for. I am on the side of the ban at the origin. For me the mechanic of the dynamax is intrinsically uncompetitive and fuck Nintendo to have created this and have removed Mega/Z (just fuck 8G lol). But here things are potentially differents it would seem. At the moment I am too undecided to choose and if that lasts, I will simply not vote. At the same time what does an old player who has ended his poke-career and just play for fun and support French community now have to say? :p

I don't discuss the "45 games" subject, I think everyone agrees that it's too much and that 35 games would be better already.

Sorry 450 dynamax for this 2 defeats but thx to believing in me ! =)

 

[Wiso Altred]

You know, when the rules said "Explain your opinion breifly", I did not expect these posts. Am I allowed to post a wall myself?