I do not want to make this thread a big argument, but I do feel as if I need to reply to some of the previous mentions of my initial post because there appears to be some confusion and misinformation. I also believe multiple people quoting my post targeting the points I made should give me enough of a reason to respond, and give more clarity to my previously aforementioned remarks.
This was not the main point of my post, this was simply something that I mentioned because in many games that I have seen, blace goes through its checks that are healthy with a little rng at times. Blace is always spamming 100% accurate moves, and has a 20% chance to go through some of its checks even when things aren’t going well. Technically speaking, it’s very unlikely to get haxed with this mon. You should know this, in fact, you went through a blace check with a spedef drop during
wc
You’re saying this as if specs blace isn’t a set (as
DeepFriedMagikarp has advocated for above), and that Blace does not learn trick or out damage regenerator with hazards. Is blace on the same level as noivern? Not even close, no. But if you are comparing the two, you should be alluding to Noivern spamming flying stab, not that Noivern can learn Switcheroo and Blace can’t
haha get it, because blace learns trick and not switcheroo *pause for laughter*
Weavile has to knock off rocky helmet, weakening the move for the next time, and will almost never make any progress vs Tapu Fini (only mon in s btw), Cobalion, and as I mentioned, has to pick and choose between getting chipped and power with its sets. This mon can also be checked by intim/dauntless shield users, such as Corviknight and Zamazenta. Dark/Ice is a significantly worse typing defensively than Ghost/Fire, that really isn’t a question. Weavile dies to grassy glide, triage draining kiss, scarf u-turn, koko dazzling gleam, and a bunch of other moves. The point of the comparison wasn’t to put the two mons against each other and say that they are the same, it was to demonstrate that they both are very offensive mons that can outlast their checks. Blace isn't really a committment in the builder, just because one person pairs it with wandering spirit, that does not make it impossible to build with to maximize its potential. Again, these are two very different mons. I am well aware
I don’t think mentioning how it can take a hit at full from most mons in A is irrelevant, especially considering blace will always be at full health with magic guard. In both of the replays I initially posted, blace was actually able to take a hit and deal damage in return. Osake made a really good
DNB post in the aaa thread, and he mentioned this as well. Choosing to ignore this fact just shows how oblivious you were when reading my previous post and doing research. I didn’t even mention how blace always lives scald from uninvested fini and toxapex, but that clearly doesn’t matter. Blace’s speed tier in comparison to weavile’s isn’t really that far off, there are maybe what, 3 somewhat common mons that fall in that range? Blace is almost always outspeeding 4/6 mons at the bare minimum, similarly to weavile. Weavile incorrectly clicking knock vs blace incorrectly clicking knock is extremely dependent on the situation, and I don’t think it happens as much as you think in actuality. It was a simple comparison between the two, my reasoning to ban isn't simply that blace is special weavile. If that's what you got out of my post, then that is unfortunate.
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Believe it or not, I think this honestly helps the ban argument more than it hurts it. To me, one of the biggest issues with blace is that you have to check it without an item. This makes building for blace really restrictive, and often makes teams weak to other breakers when trying to solely prep for blace. For example, that 3 mon core listed gets obliterated by cb heracross/terrakion, sflo lele, specs primarina, and others. I also don’t know how you can have a mid ground when blace is more often than not, life orb, meaning it is not locked into a move. This is basically just saying “use Blissey or make 50/50 reads”, not giving actual counterplay to blace. If I need to dedicate 3 mons in the builder just for blace, that is the very definition of centralizing, and sounds more than ban worthy in my eyes. When comparing blace to other breakers, they are generally more susceptible to chip damage, easier to pressure with priority, slightly less strong, less fast (most not all), worse typing defensively, don’t go through their “counters” as consistently as blace, less spammable stabs, have to risk inaccurate moves vs checks, choiced breakers can struggle with protect + check, or they can’t knock off opposing items.
That's cool and all, but please do not use my post to advocate for something unrelated to this thread. Thank you xoxo
While the replays aren’t perfect, it is more than good enough to show how blace can go through its checks. QT could’ve knocked the silvally about 25 turns earlier safely and started out damaging regen sooner rather than later. However, this was not the case. You can mention having av mons being “shaky switchins,” however that’s the best way of checking most special attackers in the meta. In addition, you also relied on regenvest mons during wc to check blace, but I guess that means nothing.
Blace could’ve gotten a kill the second time it was sent in on turn 27, but MZ decided to switch out for whatever reason instead of clicking shadow ball safely (which would’ve 2hko’d the zapdos that was switched in). Again, QT could've easily initiated a blace sequence sooner. I also think blace having a good matchup and being “played around” isn’t the best logic, and looking at the winner of each match is rather misleading when actually going into more detail. I will elaborate upon this later in the post. I would rather see blace lose while showing signs of being unhealthy rather than see it win and do nothing. You can argue that those replays aren't perfect or that x player played "sus," however I think the blace player could've played better in each replay as well.
I’ll start from the top and go down. The first replay shows off scarf blace vs primsea mandibuzz + prank pex, definitely not a great matchup for blace here. However, blace is able to trick the mandibuzz and click shadow ball a bunch of times vs toxapex. blace had a lot of opportunities to click buttons, and was on the field for quite a lot of this game all things considered. Not only that, but anytime it clicked shadow ball, the opponent was essentially forced to recover and just lose momentum. When prepping for blace, the opposing team was extremely susceptible to cb zydog. Unfortunately, zydog was unnecessarily sac’d which gives the blace user an L despite a more than winnable mu.
Next replay shows a flash fire mandibuzz + regenfini, again there’s a theme here (fire immune mandibuzz + fat water with longevity). Unfortunately, the blace user couldn’t really make progress with anything in this game. Once zapdos was tricked, the game was pretty much downhill from there. Even though there isn’t really a complimentary breaker with blace, I’ll accept this replay as blace being healthy I guess.
The third replay showcases a stall team in aaa (lol). However, it is a bit funny that the stall user has a tyranitar. Tyranitar has almost no niche in aaa right now, aside from exclusively checking blace. I also think it’s worth pointing out that once ttar died, blace still technically won late game. In general, stall isn’t the most common in aaa, and this replay doesn’t really show blace being healthy for the meta, especially when looking at the team composition. AAA is very balance/bulky offense oriented, saying that the replays I listed were rare good blace mus while linking a stall replay is very interesting to say the least.
The final replay shows blace vs av chomp as the check. Unfortunately, I think this game is more of a zapdos moment than anything. The Blace player’s removal also couldn’t keep rocks off the field, so their team just lost to zapdos + rocks before blace could really do much. Even then, blace did knock the Garchomp and almost get the 2hko on it before the battle ended. If zapdos + rocks tran didn’t have amazing mu, it was very likely that blace just bullies through that team, especially since it outsped five of the six mons.
Tournament winrate is not a good metric when assessing how healthy something is in a specific way by itself. Camomons banned spectrier, even though it had a 44.44% win rate in world cup. STABmons banned dragonite even though it had a 30% win rate in world cup. Blace falls in between the two at 37.50% (not including atha vs racool
remake which would make it exactly 50% [4/8 instead of 3/8]). In blace’s case, I think this mon just simply isn’t a tournament pick. When playing in tours, people tend to prepare for the meta’s top threats more than normal. People tend to use safer, bulkier builds as a general rule. Blace actually goes against both of these philosophies, since it is extremely frail and extensively prepped for by most teams. Despite the small sample size, blace showed a restriction to the builder in these games, in addition to the ability to break through its more viable checks. World cup winrate doesn’t include ladder games, room tours, test games, om swiss/circuit winrate, and others in which it is generally agreed upon that blace is either one of very unhealthy, or broken. I also find it funny how you essentially lied about the winrate in wc to support your argument, whether that is intentional or unintentional idk.
I’m just gonna skip over many of the regen answers, since many are niche or have been generally agreed upon as unreliable checks. The ff/primsea answers are almost all very niche barring mandibuzz, and either don’t switch into shadow ball or do not have longevity. Blissey also isn’t a blace counter by definition, if blace is taunt and blissey is not magic bounce it loses, period. The fourth move on blace is very interchangeable. I have read a lot of messages in the om disc that think toxic is mandatory fsr. Blace can easily run toxic/taunt/calm mind/explosion/expanding force depending on the team and what they want to hit. Looking solely at what blace gets a free chance to click something on is also a very paper thing, in actuality blace forces out the majority of the tier if they are at 60% or lower. Newsflash, pokemon eventually take damage in every game ever
I do think people should draw conclusions for themselves, after all that is why the council has allowed for there to be a suspect in the first place. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I respect people who do not want blace to be banned, I just ask that there is fundamentally sound logic and accurate information about the stance. I do not appreciate my post getting quoted multiple times to try shifting the narrative, especially when there is flawed logic. Also the typing is not terrible, agree to disagree n_n
etc.
