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Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]
- Thread starter ironwater
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There's a few factors I'd say favor Stealth Rock but a big one in my eyes is the general type synergy it offers to Ground types for netting chip damage on Pokemon that tend to be immune to Ground. I agree that the dynamic has shifted back to favoring hazard setters more than hazard removers, but the datamine only tells a patchy story compared to what will be a full release SV OU.
The non-confirmation of available items in the game (Heavy-Duty Boots in particular) in tandem with the restriction of item removal moves like Knock Off and Corrosive Gas (latter isn't even in the game) could all lead to different results for what the hazard metagame is going to look like. I'm excited to see what will be uncovered and what players will do with it!
me when I run out of ideas
There's not going to be maxed out stat EVs in every stat, Choice Band is a thing, and Sand Stream chips down all Pokemon. Gen 3 is going to be complete offense.
The physical/special split is going to give every Pokemon more ways to do huge amounts of damage each hit, there's a ton of strong new moves, Choice Specs, Life Orb, and Magic Guard. Gen 4 is going to be complete offense.
Gen 6 is introducing mega evolutions and buffing Knock Off there's no way stall can work now.
Gen 7 has Z-Moves there's no way defensive playstyles can work now.
Gen 8 is introducing Dynamax and Knock Off is even more free there's no way defensive playstyles can work now.
I understood pls dont put the clown theme on the radio no no nOOOO pls AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Slowking is going to officially be the game’s best Hail/Snow setter, the meta’s going to be a mf winter wonderland with all the good Ice types and buffs that were given to them, Delibird might be OP for once in its life, Game Freak legitimately hates Stall and this gen is going to be extremely hyper offensive. Things are looking absolutely wonderful so far for this gen ngl.
Ema Skye
Work!
We did get 7 new spinners this gen but the amount of Ghosts we also got can make it inconsistent. I do want to shout out both Great Tusk and Iron Treads as both deter Ghouldengo from spinblocking them due to EQ STAB. Treads also gets Volt Switch which is super neat for a Ground/Steel.
I do feel like if we want to progress pass hazard stack we should look into Ghouldengo's place in the tier. It's a spinblocker that also appears to block Defog due to its status move immunity, basically ensuring it a place on all hazard stack builds (as if Ghost/Steel with recovery already didn't do that...). We did get three strong darks (and their friend the snail) that pressure it, but they likely aren't in the tier for long.
I also want to talk about Glimmora because it sounds really intriguing on paper. Rock/Poison is walled by Steels, but Corrosion Toxic punishes the switch (unless you're Ghouldengo...). Its exclusive Spin also spins on Ghosts (but not Steels), which also compliments Corrosion, and it getting Spikes and SR lets it fit into the hazard stack comps. Probably a UU level threat at best but it's definitely intriguing.
I don't think anyone has talked about Palafin yet so I guess I'll do that. TL;DR 160 Atk after switching out once means lead CB Palafin flip turn can be a strong opener in early meta. Of course, it is super telegraphed and so you're essentially giving them a free turn while you get the form change going.
Sorry to tease I'm also here to speculate on what's next! I def agree that defensive teams are going to have a much harder time taking off with some changes to the tools they've been relying on. I think one cool opportunity a lot of Water types in OU have is a new moveslot to run anything other than a burn fishing move, which could really boost some creativity and perhaps incentivize using Fire types now given their immunity to burn can be leveraged a bit more effectively against the Pokemon spreading burn.
speaking of, ive heard that only volcanion gets scald, but also has a literal better version on Steam Eruption, does this mean SE is no more? or Scald becomes literally useless UNLESS your making a stall volcanion
Volcanion @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 116 SpD / 84 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power
like something to outrunn 24 speed heatran and enter on the 5 layers of hazards, maybe even putting rest and aromatherapy or heal bell idk, im bad at theorymonning and i know im a clown pls let me live aaaaa
Scarlet and Violet apparently reset a transferred Pokemon's moveset to be that of a native Pokemon at its level in-game. Scald is present on Volcanion's learnset, as is Steam Eruption. Steam Eruption does seem to wholly outclass Scald. Volcanion also appears to be limited to Pokemon Home connectivity, which is coming in the nebulous Spring 2023. OU's going to have to find a new favorite Water-immune Pokemon.
I think we are gonna get some alts of Quagsire, the Chad, the mith, the legend, back on track, maybe not spamming scald but how about scorching sands? i mean, its not EQ but its something, Breloom is gonna knock that thing off the metagame, and so is Ferro the moment he comes back
Scorching Sands is not present on the learnset of any Pokemon in Scarlet and Violet, although it is still a usable move in the game. I think this is going to once again nudge a little viability towards Fire types given their larger proportion of burn-spreading moves, as well as the reduction in the move variety types they're weak to have access to.
This. While the low amount of defoggers pre HOME is gonna hurt in that respect, we did get a lot of spinners this gen. Great Tusk and Iron Treads both look like some of the best options for Rapid Spin we've ever had, and I think both will be pretty popular. Also shoutout to Quaquaval, Cyclizar and Toedscruel for also having spin.
This isn't confirmed at all though. The person who said this (Centro) isn't a leaker and wouldn't have access to such info. No actual leakers have said anything about HOME interactions yet afaik and I doubt we'll get such news until early 2023.
So this means hazards +ghost spam + Fire spam + Grass to keep the waters and grounds in check, this would mean trying to bait the grass mons and eventually take off the fire spammer and Spinners + waters/ground + Flyings to "counter", at least thats what im predicting
"We have Manaphy at home"
The Manaphy at home:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 232 Def / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Tera Blast / Rain Dance
No idea how good this will actually be, but I hope it is.
The Manaphy at home:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 232 Def / 252 SpA / 24 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Tera Blast / Rain Dance
No idea how good this will actually be, but I hope it is.
This gen will probably have the largest list of Ubers in the history of Pokemon. With how hard it will be to get rid of hazards this gen, a lot of Pokemon will be outright broken with hazard support. Smogon will need to be ban-happy this gen as otherwise the meta will just be Hyper Offense.
while its not confirmed, bdsp pretty clearly set the precedent and I would be shocked if Scarlet and violet went against it, the fact of the matter is that it's more likely that transfer moves are gone as opposed to them still being around, I would realistically operate under the assumption that there are no transfer moves until we're given sufficient reason to believe otherwise
You can't take a spinoff remake and call it a precedent, let alone day we should treat it like the standard. I'll direct to this comment which does a great job explaining the nuance in why things were.
So is it still possible? Well yeah. But the entire issue was taking Centro's word for it despite not a single reputable leaker even hinting at such a thing at all, prior or recently. It isn't something anyone could know and what they did was start a rumor that has no real basis on anything official.
Nah, we gotta ban boots first, then Spikes, then Stealth Rock, then Regenerator.
In all seriousness, hazards will probably be harder to deal with now that recovery moves are 8 PP + wider distribution of hazards, but we've still got some ok anti-hazard options. Hatterene is still in the game, and I think it will be easier to slot onto teams with the limited pool of Pokemon. Cinderace is also still here and I think it'll be able to act as solid anti-hazard control like it was pre-DLC, though it could still get banned. If Heavy Duty Boots still exist, then more Pokemon can just run that as their item of choice.
Speaking of Cinderace, the leaks did show that it gets Swords Dance now, but IDK if it'd even want to use it since it has awful synergy with Libero. Do ya'll think Cinderace will run Blaze on Swords Dance sets or will it just run Bulk Up with Libero?
Someone in the leaks thread showed a punching glove item that seems to be a buffed Protective Pads. It boost the power of Punching Moves + bypasses contact with the opponent. Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow are both categorized as punching moves. Considering both Urshifu's get Swords Dance now and residual damage from Rocky Helmet was one way to keep them in check, they'll be a nightmare to deal with.
I get the feeling I'm going to like this meta. There's no more Scald and more spikes stuff? I think spikes team will really benefit from reduced Defog distribution. If teams have to rely more on Spin, then I feel like we're going to have a gens 3-5 style passive damage oriented meta. I can't wait to see this implemented on PS! so that I can try building HStack Offense/Balance. We might even see a resurgence of ADV style Superman teams.
Assuming you mean Dark Urshifu? It isn't just good into bulky teams. Especially now that it has SD, it can brandish sucker punch even more efficiently vs offense. Or stick with CB. Both work.
Despite the nerfs, Pex will still be a strong pick on defensive teams. Chilling Water can fill in for Scald and it can brandish other annoying moves still. It has a lot of utility weapons still. Toxic/haze/recover/chilling water would be a fine replacement for now. Now you wanna talk nerfs? Rip Alomomola.
I mean technically it can do punching glove+drain punch and stay healthy more, but the defense debuff Chien-Pao causes may make it too hard even for Urshifu. Especially because Ruination will let it easily wear down switch ins.
A lot of people are sleeping on Iron Bundle. It has 124 special attack, a whopping 136 speed, and a surprisingly high 114 defense. With the recent buff to Snow weather, Iron Bundle can be a fast, screen setting pivot, that can be a menace in both Snow and Rain teams.
Iron Bundle@ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
252 SpA/252 Spe
- Aurora Veil
- Flip Turn
- Freeze Dry
- Hydro Pump
It can also setup its own snow with Snowscape if necessary.
And now, to demonstrate the Penguin's bulk in snowstorm
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Delibird: 142-168 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's a super effective move from Lando-T, with zero bulk investment
Iron Bundle@ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
252 SpA/252 Spe
- Aurora Veil
- Flip Turn
- Freeze Dry
- Hydro Pump
It can also setup its own snow with Snowscape if necessary.
And now, to demonstrate the Penguin's bulk in snowstorm
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Delibird: 142-168 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's a super effective move from Lando-T, with zero bulk investment
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