Smogon is being a role model for Pojo.

[gengod]

Hey guys, haven't been around here in a while. Much has changed I see ._.

Anyways, thought you guys might want to take a look at this.

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=1116395

It's a Pojo thread on their Yugioh forums where this guy basically brought forth the idea of doing a Smogon-ish type ban list for Yugioh community in an attempt basically overide Konami's offical ban list as the better one to follow. Seems pretty interesting so far so I wanted to share. :)

 

[jrp]

maybe they'll ban Dark armed dragon

screw that thing

seriously though, it's cool that a community is trying to do this, as konami's banlist isn't the most ideal and it's nice to have the userbase having a direct voice in the banlist. Sadly it wouldn't be "official", but it's a great step in a positive direction for the competititve yugioh community!

 

[Glen]

seriously though, it's cool that a community is trying to do this, as konami's banlist isn't the most ideal and it's nice to have the userbase having a direct voice in the tiers. Sadly it wouldn't be "official", but it's a great step in a positive direction for the competititve yugioh community!

as someone who's been part of the competitive yugioh scene for a literal decade, i don't think this is a good idea at all. i would not take this metagame seriously even were it conceived by duelistgroundz, the closest thing yugioh has to smogon; pojo is basically the serebii of yugioh

not only is the average yugioh player significantly worse than the average pokemon player, the former are infinitely more self-serving and whiny than the latter. this list could only be borne of bitterness and lack of acumen.

but whatever, flattering i guess??

 

[Tobes]

Hey guys, haven't been around here in a while. Much has changed I see ._.

Anyways, thought you guys might want to take a look at this.

http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=1116395

It's a Pojo thread on their Yugioh forums where this guy basically brought forth the idea of doing a Smogon-ish type ban list for Yugioh community in an attempt basically overide Konami's offical ban list as the better one to follow. Seems pretty interesting so far so I wanted to share. :)

I've been suggesting this for months but kd and atticus wouldn't support me :(

 

[gengod]

as someone who's been part of the competitive yugioh scene for a literal decade, i don't think this is a good idea at all. i would not take this metagame seriously even were it conceived by duelistgroundz, the closest thing yugioh has to smogon; pojo is basically the serebii of yugioh

not only is the average yugioh player significantly worse than the average pokemon player, the former are infinitely more self-serving and whiny than the latter. this list could only be borne of bitterness and lack of acumen.

but whatever, flattering i guess??

Yeah I'm kinda on this side too. I don't see it working out well, although for slightly different reasons. In theory it could work, it's just that something like this, only getting started now will take a long time before it's even taken seriously.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I am familiar with individual members of the Pojo community, and while many tend to whine and not know a damn thing about how to fix the game, some are actually intelligent. I've made custom lists with Raising Toast (who shows up a few times in that thread), and they work quite well as a whole.

Anyway, making a good list in Yu-Gi-Oh is a bit more daunting than in Pokemon because there are so many different variables that need to be accounted for; namely, the desired overall power level, hitting consistency over power or vice versa, how to hit archetypes, the presence of power cards (like Monster Reborn and Mind Control), etc. I expect there will be some bloody noses and broken teeth if the project gets going because people are biased and there are so many different combinations of hits that would work to make a deck balanced. However, as I noted in the thread, it's more important than anything else that the final product achieves a balanced metagame.

Regardless, I'll try to make it work for them. :)

 

[kd24]

would never work, trust the ygo master

 

[alkinesthetase]

konami's banlists are terrible and we all know it, but i don't see this idea gaining a lot of ground. it's cool but the fact that konami has the last call in real life play (akin to the difference between VGC and smogon doubles) is going to seriously restrict how any sort of custom metagame can grow.... smogon at least has the monopoly on singles metagames (lol PO) but there's no analogous place for ygo to develop its own banlist.

it also doesn't really help that (as glen noted) pojo is kind of held in poor regard by most other ygo communities. i found that most ygo communities were shit but pojo was generally considered the shittiest of them. the large user base might be nice but it also means you'll have a lot of shit players trying to contribute, and god knows ygo has a lot of shit players (i visited dgz once, the players were good but there weren't many of them last i checked). i imagine most ygo forums would see this and say "lol look at pojo making their own banlist, think they're such hot shit" etc, and tbh there was a time when i probably would have said something similar

kudos to them for trying though cause god konami is terrible. i'm like a year out of practice so all i know is the metagame is shittier than it was the last time i played (it's practically an axiom by now - "every time konami releases a new set, the game shall get shittier"). hope they ban reborn

 

[prem]

well im sure this idea would work for pojo, but god no pojo is fucking horrible 9.9

 

[Steamroll]

I'm glad I dropped yugioh ages ago, mainly because the alienation between Konami and their playerbase has gotten to the point where literally anything the player base tries to do won't work. The OP in the link is correct that we do have a huge following with our tiering, but that's because we planted our roots right from the start when nintendo didn't really have many rules in place for competitive battling. What they're trying to do is create a balanced metagame when there's already been competitive standards set in place for over a decade. Yeah Konami is a pile of shit but the yugioh userbase has been using Konami's standards since the start. Any tiering they do won't be met well with the rest of the competitive community. We really only get flack from GameFAQs of all places, whereas these guys will be getting flack from multiple communities even if they make the proper moves straight away.

 

[Atticus]

that's cool i guess

 

[New World Order]

Yu-Gi-Oh got terrible after they introduced the Elemental Heros crap, just kept throwing out new concepts without stopping to think whether or not it would work or not, ending with lots of shit being obscenely overpowered/laughably underpowered

 

[Glen]

people need to realize, though, that the konami ban list is basically a set rotation. it doesn't attempt to balance the game, it attempts to keep new sets relevant without having to solely resort to power creep (though power creep is still a problem, obviously).

there really isn't anything wrong with this. the game isn't any worse than it was during infernity/xsaber format, which itself wasn't any worse than ddt format, which itself wasn't worse than t-hero format, etc. nobody seems to complain that mtg does set rotations, so i don't understand why it's bad for konami to do so (other than the fact that it being paraded around as balancing tool is a bit disingenuous).

the game and its resource systems are fundamentally broken and no card limitations can fix that. even when power plays are limited, the game can still be decided turn 1 in a lot of cases. look back at 2005 or 2006, when most broken shit didn't exist: if you go first and set magical merchant sakuretsu armor, they swing into your saku, and you flip merchant into a resolved thestalos, you will win that game almost every time, because fewer power cards means less comeback potential. more recently, whatever debris format used hamsters, if you go first and have warning/hamster, and you resolve your warning, you will almost always win the game.

if anything i think the game is in a pretty cool state right now, a lot of stuff is viable and a lot of stuff could easily win a ycs given the right/right number of players piloting it. my only issue is with spellbooks, but that's not because they're overpowered, it's because they're overpowered and outright countered by EEV, which makes the format stupid. either you run spellbook, or you run an EEV deck, which wins if you draw/resolve EEV and loses if you don't. i could go on and on about how poorly designed yugioh is in basically every aspect. i still enjoy playing it, though.

 

[RBG]

Moved to A Forum, since there is no need for this to be IS exclusive.

 

[Audiosurfer]

I'll probably support this, but I don't think it'll work out particularly well. There are many things of this nature on Pojo (people making their own banlists, etc.) and they generally don't last too long. I think the main reason that it couldn't work is simply because as Super Mario Bro said there are a lot more variables to account for in creating a Yugioh banlist similar to how Pokemon are tiered. With a Pokemon team, there are 6 mons there, so it's easier to tell when a mon is having a significant impact in battles than in a duel with a 40 card deck, where card interaction and influence can be a lot more subtle (not saying that there are no blatantly broken cards, just saying it can be harder to detect.) Also, as others said, there's no real consensus as to how to ban/unban things. Some people think that things should be banned based on what it's doing in the metagame, some people advocate banning things on the principle that they have overpowered effects, regardless of their overall metagame presence, etc.
I second Glen that the metagame is pretty fine and around as diverse as it's going to get at this point, especially with the way Monami is releasing ridiculous archetypes every set.

 

[phoopes]

I think a Smogon replica system would never work. Maybe if they banned stuff by "eras" or whatever, like Magic the Gathering it might work. Like one for original series only, one for pre-5Ds only, one for pre-Zexal only, and one for everything. (I think that makes sense, I don't really know YGO "generations" like I do Pokemon)

 

[Outlaw]

Hold the fucking phone, pojo still exists?

 

[zorbees]

I would definitely support a list made by dgz user Pharaoh Atem, even if I disagreed with it. Besides, how much worse can it be than Konami's lists?

 

[faint]

But he works great in Traditional. (Traditional RMD)

 

[DrRobotnik]

If they banned Exodia and other cards that are horribly OP when you get them together, they could remove shuffling altogether which would add a huge layer of strategy to the game. Also anything requiring dice rolls or coin flips. If they did those two things I'd probably pick it back up. As for specific cards, not sure as I stopped following the game around the end of 4kids dub of GX.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

not only is the average yugioh player significantly worse than the average pokemon player, the former are infinitely more self-serving and whiny than the latter. this list could only be borne of bitterness and lack of acumen.

Holy fuck

 

[ck49]

I remember when I was on BMGF, and we decided we going to make pokemon tiers. We ended up arguing to the point where nothing ended up happening. The thread is still labeled "under development", despite the fact that it was for when generation 5 first came out. BMGF isn't as bad as Serebii but that's because there's a very small competitive community and most people who go there are more interesting in role playing/anime/etc.

I started playing Yugioh again about a year ago and after a while you kinda get the impression that Pojo is a terrible place to go for it. I'm sure this will probably fizzle, since its even tougher than making a banlist for pokemon (you can't semi-limit a pokemon). Also, everyone has different opinions as to how fast the metagame should be, and there's no effective way to make usage statistics in Yugioh. Konami doesn't make the best banlists, but this Septmeber list was pretty decent until Cosmo Blazer and Abyss Rising. I can't say I like the way Konami operates but its Yugioh never is going to be a balanced game because of the magnitude of different card options available.