SM UU Beta (Mewnium Z, Staraptor, Victini banned)

[Dracma127]

With this recent ban, I feel as if dhelmise has lost any reason to be in UU. It's biggest niche was countering electric types and breloom, the former being weakened in power and the latter outright banned. It's a shame too, I've been using him for some time to counter their popularity.

As far as anti-meta goes, the Cobalion+Latias core has been holding true for me. If you want to try out BO and/or anti-meta, these two help in both categories.

 

[MaroGod]

Dhelmise was a shit counter to both, there is no reason to ever use dead anchor.

Edit - What Ice-Types fear checking it? Its a shit pokemon that has a unique quality about it. Unfortunately that unique quality is fucking worthless in the long run and Dhelmise will always be the trevenent of gen 7 (i swear its good guys!!!)

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Diverting our attention from Rain and the whole controversy over Volt blocking for a bit to bring you guys a support that I think will be UU in due time:

Comfey @ Big Root
Ability: Triage
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 8 SpA / 96 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Draining Kiss

Big Root gives you more reward from Leech Seed, which (if i'm not mistaken, gets the priority from Triage). To put things in perspective - LSing a max HP Blissey allows you to recover 38% per turn, which is pretty impressive. Synthesis + Aromatherapy, alongside the balanced defensive spread I've given allows for good sustain as well as acting as the team's cleric (Aromatherapy isn't actually covered by Triage, unfortunately). Lastly Draining Kiss for extra chip damage.

I think good support for this is TrickScarfers like Victini / Gengar that help you beat, say, the Lati twins that are allowed in the tier, and allow you to outstall other supports and bulkier mons like Blissey/Quagsire/Seismitoad. If there's any form of trap passing still legal (or simply something like Scarf Magneton to trap Steels that would likely scare you out), that works too.

Dhelmise was a shit counter to both, there is no reason to ever use dead anchor

Eh, I'd say it still has it's uses. Having the same as a 3rd STAB is always nice (scares Ice types etc.)

 

[M BLADE]

Thund-T wasn't shit for checking Double-Edge/Brave Bird, as it died to the former after rocks and the latter sank upwards of 50% damage. There's plenty of other things around that aren't afraid of being banned though that are much better checks given a proper prediction like pretty much every Steel-type (Empoleon, Magneton, Doublade, Aggron, etc.), Hippo, defensive variants of Rotom-H, Suicune... Not to say that I don't think Staraptor is a fucking scourge, but Thundurus-T's banning is not opening many more doors for it.

That was directly aimed at the Scarf set (which i was seeing every freaking time), i sould have made it clearer...since it outspeed Staraptor by just one point. But that's just my luck, i'm sure other sets were just as common.
Suicune and Rotom-H are shaky ckecks, due to Rotom being weak to rocks and Suicune needing max defenses to take a hit, and still takes too much from it's attacks without reliable recovery.
Steel, Rock and Hippo are good answers to it though. Pairing with Magneton should prove very useful for Staraptor.

Even though it's in RU, you have Kommo-o as a Dragon Dancer

Kommo-o is really bad as a DD user, as underpowered as Flygon but Flygon has actually a nice dual STAB that goes almost unresisted (damn you Togekiss for that).

Lastly, for Comfey: don't use Synthesis. Floral Healing is much better, not being affected by weather and having much more PP.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Lastly, for Comfey: don't use Synthesis. Floral Healing is much better, not being affected by weather and having much more PP.

Floral Healing doesn't work in singles, I've heard.

 

[Gubgublizardking]

[19:45] #Hikari: someone post something
[19:45] #Hikari: fuck
[19:45] #killintime: wtf do I say
[19:45] #Hikari: killintime go complain about pz

is evil or no?

Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Conversion

• I was glad when we lost rachi to be honest, but I am quite curious what people will do with this thing. You get to change up your typing to even avoid priority if you like by running moves like shadowball, I have also seen odd sets like bulky recover. I want to see what you guys do with this new gen, but what I can say is I will do everything in my power to make obnoxious sets.

Another thing I have issue with whats going to end up happening with this pursuit trapping situation, with OU taking alola muk, and weavile being a pain in the ass it has me wondering what will end up happening with gengar, zam, lati.

• Honestly this mon continues to impress me even in sumo it supports a lot of teams in different aspect, I even ran a rocks bulky aero set for zard Y and had great results with it. Pursuit is still amazing as ever, sumo mons are slow af and all the mons we did gain do not appreciate edge-quake coverage.

• We gained another sand stream user except this comes built in with recovery in the form of slack off and is nice to have back. Although I wouldn't say it totally outclasses gigalith as it doesn't resist fire/flying types which are huge right now like z-move mence or charizard-y. Instead it blocks volt switch, can counter mons like sub cm raikou, and is probably a lot more reliable in terms of setting sand.

• Interesting I have never really gotten into OU so having this around is pretty freken cool for punishing defog, and it has access to SD+pursuit. I know it was a decent mon in OU last gen so I do hope its merciful in UU this gen.

I'm super super new to competitive. Loved pokemon with a passion since I was 4, so it's kinda natural I end up here. I watched you guys in X/Y ORAS and hope to be a positive contributor in the new meta. The lower tiers (UU and RU specifically) are very interesting to me in particular. That being said I don't know if there's a protocol posting like this on the forums so please let me know if I'm doing it wrong.

Moving on from that ridiculously long introduction, I'd think PZ (mostly by merit of Z conversion or stab Breakneck blitz off Hyper Beam [basically a delete button once ghost types are off the field]) wouldn't fit well in UU. That being said, almost every PZ I've come across converts to Ghost/Electric or just spams Tri Attack. It's kind of dissapointing to see the lack of versatility in such a unique buff. One of the things that made Protean Greninja so dangerous in early X/Y was the unpredictability of the move it would use and, as a result, the type it would be after. It's a shame to not see as much versatility dedicated to Z conversion.

This was just my observation, so I may be totally off, and if so please let me know. Thanks for all you guys do to make a stable meta

 

[YABO]

I'm super super new to competitive. Loved pokemon with a passion since I was 4, so it's kinda natural I end up here. I watched you guys in X/Y ORAS and hope to be a positive contributor in the new meta. The lower tiers (UU and RU specifically) are very interesting to me in particular. That being said I don't know if there's a protocol posting like this on the forums so please let me know if I'm doing it wrong.

Moving on from that ridiculously long introduction, I'd think PZ (mostly by merit of Z conversion or stab Breakneck blitz off Hyper Beam [basically a delete button once ghost types are off the field]) wouldn't fit well in UU. That being said, almost every PZ I've come across converts to Ghost/Electric or just spams Tri Attack. It's kind of dissapointing to see the lack of versatility in such a unique buff. One of the things that made Protean Greninja so dangerous in early X/Y was the unpredictability of the move it would use and, as a result, the type it would be after. It's a shame to not see as much versatility dedicated to Z conversion.

This was just my observation, so I may be totally off, and if so please let me know. Thanks for all you guys do to make a stable meta

Porygon (and a bunch of other dudes) got banned, welcome though!

 

[Gubgublizardking]

Porygon (and a bunch of other dudes) got banned, welcome though!

Thanks much. Good to be here

Banned to OU?

 

[Hogg]

Thanks much. Good to be here

Banned to OU?

Banned from UU, but still legal in OU. Since OU technically refers to usage, and not bans, Pokemon that are illegal in UU but don't get enough usage to be considered OU are called "Border Line" (or BL for short).

Terminology can seem like a bit much if you're new, but it's easy to pick up over time. Welcome to Smogon!

 

[Gubgublizardking]

Banned from UU, but still legal in OU. Since OU technically refers to usage, and not bans, Pokemon that are illegal in UU but don't get enough usage to be considered OU are called "Border Line" (or BL for short).

Terminology can seem like a bit much if you're new, but it's easy to pick up over time. Welcome to Smogon!

Thanks much. So due to a ban from UU and not enough use in OU it's technically BL (only usable in OU but not seeing much use)?

 

[Found True Love]

Thanks much. So due to a ban from UU and not enough use in OU it's technically BL (only usable in OU but not seeing much use)?

Correct.

 

[Kink]

Thanks much. So due to a ban from UU and not enough use in OU it's technically BL (only usable in OU but not seeing much use)?

Exactly. Check out our Resource Thread for more information on how to navigate the forums and the different rules: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/underused-forum-guide-resource-thread-announcements.3591789/


e: sniped

 

[Dracma127]

Dhelmise was a shit counter to both, there is no reason to ever use dead anchor.

Edit - What Ice-Types fear checking it? Its a shit pokemon that has a unique quality about it. Unfortunately that unique quality is fucking worthless in the long run and Dhelmise will always be the trevenent of gen 7 (i swear its good guys!!!)

Um... okay? I'm on my phone rn, but I can pull up several examples of Dhelmise countering electrics and Breloom. This is important on bulkier teams, ensuring that at least you can minimize volt switch damage, and at most shut down a potential Breloom setup. Only thing really holding him back is his movepool and Alolamon speed, which was something I was willing to work around if it meant I could stop some enemy momentum. Of course, with its best matchups banned to OU, there's really no good reason to use him in the tier anymore.

On the topic of counters, is there any hard counter to Primarina? I've been running around with a speed-invested specs set on my BO team, and it's been carving holes in almost every team I come across. With the right predictions, between dual STAB and Psychic spam, anything not called Blissey gets 1-2HKO'd. HO teams and revenge killers are troublesome, but they need a sack or good predict just to get in safely. And with the right team support (steel and ground types, pivots, etc), it's simple enough for Prim to come in, get a kill, and safely get back out.

 

[Found True Love]

Besides Blissey there's not many hard counters (meaning mons that switch into any of its moves) but I actually don't think Primarina is very good. Like you mentioned, Blissey is a counter which means it can't actually nuke anything vs. stall, vs. balance it usually requires a prediction to get a kill in the first place AND even if it gets a kill it can easily be set up fodder if it's locked into the wrong move, and vs. offense the speed stat seriously cripples it.

I've been running a simple balance team that in theory should be wrecked by Primarina but never is in practice. I have spdef Forretress + Suicune and it's so easy to brainlessly switch in Forre. They moonblast? Free hazards. They pump? I get to go into Suicune *or* CM Lati afterwards and start setting up and almost never fail to get at least one kill in return and emerge in a stronger position over all.

 

[theDSC]

Did the prankster nerf affect Thundurus I so much that it's actually more bearable than Thundurus T now? How times has changed...

To address something above, I'd say Dhelmise checks Breloom more than Thundurus-T. Breloom doesn't really have much that it can hit the anchor with; I don't think Rock Tomb can do enough. Thundurus on the other hands hits way too hard; after a Nasty Plot even resisted pokemon can't do much

 

[Found True Love]

Alright, I know it's been said a thousand time but [insert Hikari] Dhelmise is bad in almost every respect. Run Celebi or somethin' if you wanna check Breloom.

 

[Hogg]

Did the prankster nerf affect Thundurus I so much that it's actually more bearable than Thundurus T now? How times has changed...

The prankster nerf definitely hurts it; not being able to stop things like Shark makes it way less of a useful emergency button than it once was. But that being said, the main reason Thundurus-T was banned was because of the power of its NP set with Electrium-Z. With the highest Special Attack in the tier, it only needed a single boost to power through resists and super bulky special walls:

(The calc says Thunderbolt because it reads Gigavolt Havoc as physical; base power has been changed to 175.)

+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 366-431 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 465-547 (129.1 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 339-399 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 188 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 486-573 (95.6 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hell, even Blissey takes so much that it pretty much needs to be at 100% to survive:

+2 252+ SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 522-615 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

That's of course just with Thunderbolt; Thunder is viable with rain teams and its Gigavolt Havoc hits even harder (base 185 instead of base 175). Thundurus-I is definitely a great 'mon, both offensively dangerous and possessing a decent amount of utility, but it doesn't have anything close to the raw power of Thundurus-Therian.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

That was directly aimed at the Scarf set (which i was seeing every freaking time), i sould have made it clearer...since it outspeed Staraptor by just one point. But that's just my luck, i'm sure other sets were just as common.
Suicune and Rotom-H are shaky ckecks, due to Rotom being weak to rocks and Suicune needing max defenses to take a hit, and still takes too much from it's attacks without reliable recovery.
Steel, Rock and Hippo are good answers to it though. Pairing with Magneton should prove very useful for Staraptor.



Kommo-o is really bad as a DD user, as underpowered as Flygon but Flygon has actually a nice dual STAB that goes almost unresisted (damn you Togekiss for that).

Lastly, for Comfey: don't use Synthesis. Floral Healing is much better, not being affected by weather and having much more PP.

Dragon/Fighting is a unique STAB

 

[Confehdehrehtheh]

(The calc says Thunderbolt because it reads Gigavolt Havoc as physical; base power has been changed to 175.)

I'm pretty sure you can change the damage type to special. I'm on my phone currently so correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, all this talk about rain and I'm not seeing much about sun. Been tinkering with it myself and not too sure how I feel about it.

Torkoal as a setter isn't as bad as I thought it would be by virtue of its stupidly high defense stat and pretty decent offenses. Ninetails seems significantly worse than her hail sister(sun aurora veil plz).

There's not a ton of abusers either. Mega Houndoom and Heliolisk have Solar Power. Chlorophyll is pretty scarce for good users(I can't remember if Venasaur is UU right now), I've been trying SD Sawsbuck and double edging for days which has been okay. A sun boosted Darmanitan has a terrifying Flare Blitz.

Whimsicott has been ok as a bulky support and secondary sun setter. Lurantis has leaf guard and defog but is kind of bad otherwise.

I'll get some calcs out when I'm at my computer later.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Idk why we still talking about Breloom and Thundurus-T .-. They both got banned so let's move on now shall we

Anyways, I've been liking Rotom-M (granted I played like 2 games with it but w/e) in this new meta where bulky-Water types (Suicune, Mola, Swampert) especially and also other bulkier mons like Blissey and Snorlax are a lot better now that 2 stall-breakers are gone. Rotom-Mow puts pressure on these bulkier foes due to its ability to cripple them with TrickScarf while being resistant to rocks (compared to Rotom-H). I prefer Scarf over Specs mainly because I'm using Rotom as more of a revenge-killer/fast pivot.

Rotom-Mow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Will-O-Wisp
- Trick

On the topic of counters, is there any hard counter to Primarina? I've been running around with a speed-invested specs set on my BO team, and it's been carving holes in almost every team I come across. With the right predictions, between dual STAB and Psychic spam, anything not called Blissey gets 1-2HKO'd. HO teams and revenge killers are troublesome, but they need a sack or good predict just to get in safely. And with the right team support (steel and ground types, pivots, etc), it's simple enough for Prim to come in, get a kill, and safely get back out.

Edit- Try Defensive Empoleon with Knock Off. Empoleon also got better with the bans so there really isn't a drawback from using it and it lives Primarina's strongest moves quite well and can threaten it with Knock Off.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 113-134 (30.3 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 77.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[FINITOOOO]

Hi all. I want to talk about an underrated threat atm. Gengar.
This thing has been overlooked, and is now looking more threatening than ever. Between energy ball, z-focus blast, sludge wave, mean look, taunt, pain split, will-o-wisp, potent dual stabs, z-thunder... The only mons I can see reliably switching into this are Dragalge, and sometimes tentacruel. I want to talk about a set I just thought of, though. The Mean Look Trapper.

Gengar @ Black Sludge/Electrium-Z/Grassium-Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Mean Look
-Taunt/Sludge Wave
-Sludge Wave/Thunder/Energy Ball
-Shadow Ball

This set effectively traps Blissey, Tentacruel, Blastoise, and nails Sharpedo on its protect.

Here are some calcs to show effectiveness:

Hippowdon 252 SpA Gengar Bloom Doom vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 432-510 (102.8 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blastoise 252 SpA Gengar Bloom Doom vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 340-400 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Blastoise 252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 358-422 (103.7 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tentacruel 252 SpA Gengar Gigavolt Havoc vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 346-408 (95.8 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Krookodile 252 SpA Gengar Bloom Doom vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 510-602 (154 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Obviously people wouldn't switch this in because of a potential focus blast, but still.)
Sharpedo (On Protect) 252 SpA Gengar Bloom Doom vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes (Not sure if I calced this one right. I multiplied 175 BP Bloom Doom by .25, and used a base 44 power Bloom Doom respectively).

This is just the beginning. Besides Dragalge and Snorlax, can we say there are any reliable switch ins to this mon? You could even run HP Fire for Scizor if you want to.

Edit: Here is a replay of this set in action. Gengar successfully traps and pp stalls Blissey, allowing for Nidoking to clean up at the end of the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uubeta-524574724

 

[Sacri']

Have been playing & building some more this week so I guess it's time for some more talk about the things I've found interesting lately.

Cobalion @ Fightinium Z/Shuca Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock/Stone Edge
- Iron Head

Sharpedo is extremely popular and Cobalion is basically the best answer that fits offensive builds, it also happens to be the best Bisharp check which makes Cobalium an awesome partner to basically any psychic types which all struggle with it. Just run Fightinium if the z spot isnt taken, Shuca works rather well too. As the tier is really offensive it's somewhat hard to actually sweep with Cobalium but being able to check several threats while also setting up rocks without being passive in any way makes Cobalium a good asset to many teams in this metagame.

Victini @ Expert Belt
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blue Flare
- Grass Knot
- Glaciate
- U-Turn

Used this when I built a team around Toxicroak, it's basically meant to lure Hippo/Gliscor/Pert which all tend to come in on Victini and it's worked well so far. I chose U-Turn to keep momentum, can also lure the oppo into thinking Victini is choice locked which can come handy in some situations. Don't have much to say about this one, it's basically one of the best lure set in the tier thanks to it's impressive movepool. As opposed to the Banded set this isn't actually meant to wallbreak, it just aims to lure in particular mons which tend to come in expecting Scarf/banded versions which are way more common.

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Toxic/Knock Off
- Defog

Have been using this one a lot and I must say I wasn't disappointed. This thing can come in on an impressive amount of things right now, one of the few mons that can switch into Specs Primarina which is appreciated a lot on bulky offenses which have trouble to switch into it. Toxic variants also beats Latias which is also great in general, as suprising as it may seem, Empoleon hasn't lost that much interest this gen, it's still a splashable defogger which offers a nice role compression to a wide amount of teams.

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Spe / 8 SpD
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Heal Bell

I've also found this set to be quite splashable, it punishes bulkiers teams while still doing a fine jobs at checking most fighting & dragon types. This finds little to no trouble to set up, it can then proceed to threaten most things, the ability to flinch down bulkier mons is also really appreciated. I believe the only decent way to deal with this on stall teams is Aero which I haven't seen a lot on this archetype so this should do it's job for the most part. Heal Bell also offers a decent uility move for bulky offenses which often tend to lack clerics.

Keldeo @ Waterium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Scald/Hidden Power [Bug]

This set has gotten a bit of attention early on as one of the cool set which exploits Z moves the most. Still, I haven't seen anyone using it so I thought I would give it a try myself. It works rather well, being able to switch move is rather useful right now, +1 Spe under rain can ruin offensive teams late games which is great. I've used HP Bug simply because Celebi seemed to regain some usage, it basically allows Keldeo to lure one of it's usual checks by itself, since Gyara has left there is little reason to run HP Electric and HP Bug does like 85 to celebi which basically makes it completely unable to check Keldeo, especially considering that you can switch moves so you don't even have to predict right to kill it. The fact that it can pick between Hydro Vortex and Rain Dance is also great, you can just decide which one to click depending on your game plan which is quite useful.

On a side note: It's probably too early to tell but Mew's new Zmove seems extremely frustrating to deal with, doing V-create damages on it's own is already rather silly but the fact that it also starts Psychic terrain makes it incredibly hard to stop, especially considering that some of it's teamates can also make good use of terrain.

 

[mertyville]

Did anyone try physical Thundurus sets yet?
Kinda curious to know how it performs on the higher ladder with Z-Fly and it has Defiant as ability too.

 

[CBU]

Did anyone try physical Thundurus sets yet?
Kinda curious to know how it performs on the higher ladder with Z-Fly and it has Defiant as ability too.

i did and it is just sad how weak it is. Defiant is funny if they fog on you and u get the free +2 but other than that don't waste your time imo. Freakin primarina lives a wild charge from full -_-

 

[PShine]

Watch as next gen gives Swanna some kind of ridiculous boost, so that every Water/Flying type becomes OU, by ban, or usage.
Speaking of which, (on Scarf Keldeo at least) HP Grass outclasses Electric, due to Electric's main target (Gyarados) being banned, and Water/Ground becoming rather common, while HP Electric is only better against Tentacruel... who'll comfortably live anyway.