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If you guys are gonna discuss something, knock off the hostility jesus christ. If the man thinks Zard X should have stayed A-, then let the man preach. Not all changes have to be due to meta trends, as Halcyon said, some mons are just not accurately placed and are fixed accordingly. As far as the VR team goes, we decided that Zard-X's place in the meta doesn't warrant it a place in A-, but if you beg to differ, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as the discussion stays civil. I don't want to have to blacklist Pokemon because people can't act like adults.
from C- to C/C+
The Tapus has hurt Hydreigon in this generation and suffers competition from similar mons like Gengar and Hoopa, but his situation has improved lately, since his best partner in the tier is considered one of the best mons in it aswell, Mega-Metagross, (specially his Agility set), as Hydreigon can break most Metagross answers by itself. Gunk Shot Greninja has gained popularity aswell and can act as a good partner to break the Tapus and fairies in general, as he no longer needs Water Shuriken, since Phero no longer in the tier. Ghost+Water resist is a plus to check the best scarfer mons right now, being Keldeo and Gengar.
TL;DR: Pheromosa is banned.
Also, one question: Why is Blissey in C-? BoltBeam CM to check Manaphy? Shed Shell?
from C- to C/C+
The Tapus has hurt Hydreigon in this generation and suffers competition from similar mons like Gengar and Hoopa, but his situation has improved lately, since his best partner in the tier is considered one of the best mons in it aswell, Mega-Metagross, (specially his Agility set), as Hydreigon can break most Metagross answers by itself. Gunk Shot Greninja has gained popularity aswell and can act as a good partner to break the Tapus and fairies in general, as he no longer needs Water Shuriken, since Phero no longer in the tier. Ghost+Water resist is a plus to check the best scarfer mons right now, being Keldeo and Gengar.
TL;DR: Pheromosa is banned.
Also, one question: Why is Blissey in C-? BoltBeam CM to check Manaphy? Shed Shell?
I like the idea of a hydreigon rise, but I don't like your reasons. Yeah, the introduction of the Tapus hurt it, I'll give you that. Elsewise, I really wouldn't classify Gengar and Hoopa as "similar mons" to it. Gengar has an offensive typing that hits way different things, a more limited move pool, and is frailer overall. Hoopa hits ridiculously harder than Hydreigon and fills a different role than it.
I'm not sure how well Hydreigon and Metagross work, and I guess they have decent defensive type synergy, but Hydreigon has a weakness to bug and when Megagross's best answer is Mega Scizor (that of the renowned U Turns), that's not good. An impish 0 EVs Atk Mega Scizor U turn does ~80% to Hydreigon, so it can't switch in for Megagross into Scizor which is kind of a big deal when considering Megagross partners. Sure, Hydreigon takes it out with Flamethrower/fire blast, but it can't switch in.
Gunk Shot Gren has been popular for a long time and regular Gren never ran Water Shuriken because it's way too inconsistent and only if it hits 5 times is there a fair chance for it to KO Phero, plus it's usually just a waste of a super valuable moveslot on Gren.
Gengar was a great scarfer mon specifically for Phero, but now that she's gone I wouldn't call him the best in the tier. And Hydreigon is a shaky as fuck check to Keldeo considering Secret Sword KOs.
Why should Hydreigon rise? Because it's basically a Dark/Dragon Zapdos. No, seriously, look at their stats: 92/105/90/125/90/98 vs 90/90/85/125/90/100. 92/90/90 and 90/85/90 defenses look very similar while they share a very similar speed tier and the exact same special attack. Zapdos has a better defensive typing, with just two weaknesses and no 4x weakness to the every looming fairy type, but Hydreigon has one more resistance and one more immunity than it. Couple this with Hydreigon's insane movepool with both special and physical options, it's no wonder that a roost + 3 attacks set similar to Zapdos's but more offensively inclined has gained traction recently. That's why it should rise. Roost + 3 attacks with the great coverage available to both of them and the decent defensive stats + typing they both have is what already allowed a rise for Zapdos and what should allow a rise for Hydreigon. C+ seems more than reasonable... Plus it has insane synergy with Toxapex it's immune to 2/3 of Toxapex's weaknesses and resists the 3rd one, while Toxapex eats fairy, ice, bug, and fighting attacks with ease.
Hydreigon doesnt have anywhere close to as good of defensive typing even with that bulk. Also it's speed tier is ass. It has to run +Spe in the meta to outpace Zygarde and Lele. Even then It's slower than things like Volcarona and Salamence. It's offensive coverage while good, isnt as good as Zapdos' Electric/Ice/Fire. They are very different mons who do very different things. It has a hard time in the meta where it feels like any competent poke carries a SE move against it. Being 4x weak to fairy is also terrible
Hydreigon doesnt have anywhere close to as good of defensive typing even with that bulk. Also it's speed tier is ass. It has to run +Spe in the meta to outpace Zygarde and Lele. Even then It's slower than things like Volcarona and Salamence. It's offensive coverage while good, isnt as good as Zapdos' Electric/Ice/Fire. They are very different mons who do very different things. It has a hard time in the meta where it feels like any competent poke carries a SE move against it. Being 4x weak to fairy is also terrible
Most offensive Pokemon run +Speed so it doesn't matter that it needs Speed investment in order to outspeed Zygarde and Tapu Lele because it still outspeeds them no problem. Salamence isn't that good of a Pokemon anymore and Volcarona usually doesn't run Bug Buzz. Hydreigon gets both Fire Blast and Thunderbolt completing 2/3 of Zapdos's offensive move types, and while it doesn't really run the latter that doesn't really matter too much, because Hydreigon has other coverage options that Zapdos doesn't. Iron Tail/Flash Cannon hits Fairy types which would otherwise stop Hydreigon. Superpower lets it break past Chansey. While Draco Meteor wouldn't be considered a coverage move, it's still a very powerful attack that's not resisted by many, and this is where it uses its coverage moves for those that do resist Draco Meteor.
Also it's Speed isn't THAT bad. Hydreigon struggles against offense but rather, it Speed is just enough to let it outpace a lot of common stall mons and break through stall. C isn't a very high rank, it's still the second lowest rank, as Hydreigon is a flawed Pokemon. It's mostly outclassed by Hoopa-Unbound but I think it has enough merits for C.
Hydreigon doesnt have anywhere close to as good of defensive typing even with that bulk. Also it's speed tier is ass. It has to run +Spe in the meta to outpace Zygarde and Lele. Even then It's slower than things like Volcarona and Salamence. It's offensive coverage while good, isnt as good as Zapdos' Electric/Ice/Fire. They are very different mons who do very different things. It has a hard time in the meta where it feels like any competent poke carries a SE move against it. Being 4x weak to fairy is also terrible
I mentioned the (2 points lower) speed, even though Zapdos doesn't run speed investment so the difference is negligible and not super relevant to the comparison.
It's offensive coverage is as good as you make it. It has good moves for dark, psychic, steel, fighting, electric, fire, dragon, ground, flying, water, ice (ice fang and hp ice only but that's good enough for 4x weaknesses), rock, normal (lol), and bug. To recap, that's 14/18 types it has good offensive moves for (13/17 that matter since normal is mostly redundant with so many coverage options), and most of those include both special attack and attack moves. It can run the exact same three moves that Zapdos does with the exact same special attack. Oh, and it has reliable recovery like Zapdos, except it doesn't need to worry about becoming weak to earthquakes while using it. Oh also it has better bulk.
It still has an inferior defensive typing though and doesn't get STAB on TBolt, which is why I'm nominating it for C+ when Zapdos is all the way up in A-
I mentioned the (2 points lower) speed, even though Zapdos doesn't run speed investment so the difference is negligible and not super relevant to the comparison.
It's offensive coverage is as good as you make it. It has good moves for dark, psychic, steel, fighting, electric, fire, dragon, ground, flying, water, ice (ice fang and hp ice only but that's good enough for 4x weaknesses), rock, normal (lol), and bug. To recap, that's 14/18 types it has good offensive moves for (13/17 that matter since normal is mostly redundant with so many coverage options), and most of those include both special attack and attack moves. It can run the exact same three moves that Zapdos does with the exact same special attack. Oh, and it has reliable recovery like Zapdos, except it doesn't need to worry about becoming weak to earthquakes while using it. Oh also it has better bulk.
It still has an inferior defensive typing though and doesn't get STAB on TBolt, which is why I'm nominating it for C+ when Zapdos is all the way up in A-
According to every site I can find Hydreigon doesn't learn Tbolt, but either way I don't think it would want to give up both of its STABs to run Ice/Fire/Elec coverage (considering Dark spam is one of its #1 draws). And speed may not be relevant to Zapdos but Hydreigon doesn't usually serve the same purpose as Zap so its speed does matter, unless you're trying to argue that it should be used as a coverage tank the way Zap is instead of as a breaker the way it traditionally has been?
This isn't an argument on whether it should or shouldn't raise.
This is an odd conversation, talking about coverage that Hydra literally doesn't use. It ran Dragon / Dark / Fire / Fight in BW. Then in XY-ORAS with the inclusion of fairies: Dragon / Dark / Fire / filler with the choice of Flash Cannon, U-turn, maybe Superpower, or Roost depending on the item/coverage needed. Talking about it having water, psychic, and ice etc just sounds misplaced, and the only person I've seen use rock coverage is BanManaphy.
But shoutout to BlazeLatias on fearing that inclusive scarf edge set.
with how common steels and fairies are i think even draco can be worth dropping on it for better coverage tbh
Regardless zapdos isnt a good comparison since nobody runs zapdos for its damage. That should be pretty obvious from how people take pressure over static and use discharge more than thunderbolt. Its a hard to kill mon that threatens a lot of the meta with super effective hits rather than spamming big neutral hits like hydreigon does.
Hydrei's biggest issue is that its just a shittier hoopa anyway
I would jump on you for that... but as I think about it more, you're not actually wrong. However, should that really dump the potential of a rise? Let's compare the two.
Hoopa-U is a mon with staggering mixed offenses (160/170, which it is unanimous for), but a mediocre 80 base speed. Hydeigon has a much more respectable 98 base speed, and access to Uturn - but has much lower offenses (105/125) and a less forgiving weakness spread. It's also worth noting that Hoopa essentially plays without an ability (its best sets do jack all with Magician, a situational ability at best), whereas Hyderigons' Levitate actually gives it a useful immunity to work with. Let's not forget WHY Hoopa-U has fallen from grace so badly, one of those reasons being the Duggy buff and Arena Trap (alas, Duggy cannot trap Hydra due to Levitate). Both have similar movepools with lavish amounts of coverage to complement their dark spam as well. Hydreigon has a few support options in Taunt/Roost stallbreaking and Tailwind, whereas Hoopa-U can make use of Z-moves more efficiently (see Z-Snatch and others).
Tl;dr: Hoopa does hit harder, but Hydreigon can preserve momentum a little better. IMO at least.
Let's not forget WHY Hoopa-U has fallen from grace so badly, one of those reasons being the Duggy buff and Arena Trap (alas, Duggy cannot trap Hydra due to Levitate).
This is just 100% absolutely false. Hoopa-U was never known as an outstanding stallbreaker even when it was banned last gen, and the Duggy buff point is pointless because it could trap Hoopa before the buff anyway. It was banned last gen because of its incredible wallbreaking capabilities in a heavy balance/Bulky offensive meta, which gave it a ton of free switch-ins and opportunities to spam its at the time, basically unwallable STAB combo and coverage. Take a look at the metagame now. While there are still plenty of balance and BO cores running around, the meta is far more offensive than it was back in ORAS when Hoopa was around, which heavily limits Hoopa's opportunities to get free switch-ins, and on top of that it faces competition from other balance breakers such as Tapu Lele which sports a better Speed tier, typing, and ability, and Mawile which is, well Mawile. Hydreigon was good post Hoopa ban for the same reason Hoopa was too good in ORAS; the meta was slower, and most defensive cores let it in for free and allowed it to spam Dark Pulse which was much harder to switch into last gen. Breakers were huge in ORAS, and Hoopa-U was king of the breakers, which is why once it was banned, you started seeing other lesser breakers being used such as Nidoking, Hydreigon, and Crawdaunt to take its place.
Hoopa-U will become better at some point, I can guarantee you that, especially if future bans end up happening, because eventually when every meta stabalizes mid-late gen, it always usually favors BO or balance over pure offense. But that's besides the point, Hydreigon offers very little over Hoopa U as a breaker outside of its key resistances and ability, but it's not like it match up vs stall is any better than Hoopa's, in fact, it's worse, considering that Hoopa can potentially at least get a kill before getting trapped, where as Hydreigon is usually just hard walled between Chansey and Clefable. I don't think Hydreigon is as bad as most of the mons in C- and could probably rise, but sure as hell not for the logic you are using.
Just some assorted thoughts. (On mobile so please forgive typing).
Charizard X: personally I think it is outrageous that this dropped. Though some new water/fairy Pokemon have been introduced, Charizard is still imo the single most threatening Pokemon in the tier. I don't think people realize how shakily the tier checks this thing. One bad switch on your lando and poof, zard 6-0s. Bulky sets are particularly effective right now, and even sub-roost-dtail has put in serious work in wearing down supposed counters. With the abundance of scarfers, I can understand B+ FOR NOW, but (again imo) this thing would easily be Ubers if lando wasn't around.
Zapdos: eww. I never like this thing. As a defogger it's decent, but the roost+3 attacks set is really junk. Lacking in power and really only sees success because people are so used to the defog set. Once it's more standard, I don't think people will be singing praises. Plus, once M-Meta is banned (heh), it's will lose a lot of it's defensive utility.
Hydreigon: definitely needs to rise, by not for the reasons others have been pointing out. Hydreigon is an awful stallbreaker, and any bulky sets are pretty trash. Hydreigons large niche is as balance breaker that can actually switch in for offensive teams thanks to it's typing+ability. E.g. one of the few checks offense has to maro-A. Roost+3 attacks is easily the best set (with earthpower or fire blast along with stabs). Draco OHKOs most neutral targets and dark pulse is a pain to switch on. Coverage obviously bops either toxapex or the steel dudes. Of course its speed leaves a lot to be desired and it gets bodied by fini and HO, so let's not hope for the moon. With some proper prediction though, you can really dink some common scarfers (Lele, chomp, Landon). Also a safe revenge on mega maw if you run fire blast.
Hoopa-U:. First off, hoopa u was never a stall breaker, that's hoopa c. BTW, sub-np hoopa c did and still does 6-0 stall. Anyways...hoopa U still 2hkos the meta, but it can't blindly spam dark pulse as it could in oras. Specs and band are its weaker sets atm. I believe hoopas real strength is currently a scarf set on hazard stacking teams. Paired with something that can keep spikes up (looking at you Greninja), hoops can just hang out on the bench until turn 20, and then You come in and cleanup the enemy team after it has taken a round or two of chip. Still, other scarfers and dug are no fun, but hoopa is still almost always a guaranteed kill.
Ferrothorn: not going to make a formal nom here, but I think this is due for a rise and maybe some other people can discuss. Spdef Spikes+powerwhip set has been putting in so much work. It checks all the physical attackers right now, leech seed can cheese out fatter opponents and cushions switches and it is such a good spikes setter. For some reason tapu fini feels like ferro is a free switch, so you just bop 'em when they taunt you. I would think the main counter argument being that volcarona gets a free QD, but again, ferro can run twave and totally bungle volcs efforts.
Sometimes I'm convinced people don't actually ever read the reasoning for why certain drops/rises happened and just choose to make up their own insinuation based on a few matches on the low ladder. But that's just me I guess. But seriously guys, read the fucking VR updates before commenting on why something changed. Especially when basically 90% of your nomination is spewing false reasoning's as to why Zard X dropped, and most of what you said had literally nothing to do with it dropping in the first place.
Though some new water/fairy Pokemon have been introduced, Charizard is still imo the single most threatening Pokemon in the tier. I don't think people realize how shakily the tier checks this thing. One bad switch on your lando and poof, zard 6-0s. Bulky sets are particularly effective right now, and even sub-roost-dtail has put in serious work in wearing down supposed counters. With the abundance of scarfers, I can understand B+ FOR NOW, but (again imo) this thing would easily be Ubers if lando wasn't around.
Zapdos: eww. I never like this thing. As a defogger it's decent, but the roost+3 attacks set is really junk. Lacking in power and really only sees success because people are so used to the defog set. Once it's more standard, I don't think people will be singing praises. Plus, once M-Meta is banned (heh), it's will lose a lot of it's defensive utility.
Smart players will preserve Lando if they see a Zard in team preview. Besides there's always mediocre but annoying toxapex which lives both +1 EQ and tpunch. And scarfers just seal the deal. The result, Zard never sweeps. There's very little reason to run it over other megas. It's brother ZardY is doing great (remember when it was BL at first lol)
And Zapdos lacks power? It has 125 SpAtk, that's higher than Raikou and Koko (yeah I know about electric terrain) and Electric+fire+Ice is really great coverage
Charizard X: personally I think it is outrageous that this dropped. Though some new water/fairy Pokemon have been introduced, Charizard is still imo the single most threatening Pokemon in the tier. I don't think people realize how shakily the tier checks this thing. One bad switch on your lando and poof, zard 6-0s. Bulky sets are particularly effective right now, and even sub-roost-dtail has put in serious work in wearing down supposed counters. With the abundance of scarfers, I can understand B+ FOR NOW, but (again imo) this thing would easily be Ubers if lando wasn't around.
Zard X is far from as threatening as it used to be for reasons already stated, but I will just kindly add that both Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile are in the tier and serve as superior breakers on many fronts. Medi doesn't need to set up; it hits like a goddamn nuke right from the get-go with Pure Power, giving it 656 Attack if Adamant. HJK hits ludicrously hard, and Zen becomes another reliable nuking tool if Psychic Terrain is up. It also gets two forms of priority, that being Fake Out and Bullet Punch. Mega Mawile's raw power is still that extra little bit absurd, also gets priority (though nerfed) and has a far better defensive typing in the current metagame. Neither of these two Pokémon require setup; they break things right upon Mega Evolving and few Pokémon can even semi-reliably switch in without being heavily crippled. While Zard X is itself a hard hitter, it fails to wallbreak to great effect due to new introductions in the metagame.
Zapdos: eww. I never like this thing. As a defogger it's decent, but the roost+3 attacks set is really junk. Lacking in power and really only sees success because people are so used to the defog set. Once it's more standard, I don't think people will be singing praises. Plus, once M-Meta is banned (heh), it's will lose a lot of it's defensive utility.
It's the other way around, really. Previous VRs have discussed how Zapdos is a mediocre Defogger at best, and should be used for its own defensive perks such as its typing and access to reliable recovery. Its Roost/3 attacks set combines these attributes with good offensive prowess combined with LO, and it covers all it needs to with these three moves. The perk over Tapu Koko is the surprise element of offensive Zapdos and boasting much more bulk. Also, there hasn't even been any discussion on Mega Metagross being slated for a suspect test at all AFAIK (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), so that last point holds negative relevance.
Hydreigon: definitely needs to rise, by not for the reasons others have been pointing out. Hydreigon is an awful stallbreaker, and any bulky sets are pretty trash. Hydreigons large niche is as balance breaker that can actually switch in for offensive teams thanks to it's typing+ability. E.g. one of the few checks offense has to maro-A. Roost+3 attacks is easily the best set (with earthpower or fire blast along with stabs). Draco OHKOs most neutral targets and dark pulse is a pain to switch on. Coverage obviously bops either toxapex or the steel dudes. Of course its speed leaves a lot to be desired and it gets bodied by fini and HO, so let's not hope for the moon. With some proper prediction though, you can really dink some common scarfers (Lele, chomp, Landon). Also a safe revenge on mega maw if you run fire blast.
As already elaborated on, Hoopa-U performs the breaker role a lot better, leaving Hydreigon outclassed. I'm also surprised you haven't brought up Flash Cannon for coverage, its only move for breaking past the likes of Clefable and Tapu Lele. It unfortunately kinda gets shit on by the abundant Fairies and is, again, just outperformed by Hoopa-U.
Hoopa-U:. First off, hoopa u was never a stall breaker, that's hoopa c. BTW, sub-np hoopa c did and still does 6-0 stall. Anyways...hoopa U still 2hkos the meta, but it can't blindly spam dark pulse as it could in oras. Specs and band are its weaker sets atm. I believe hoopas real strength is currently a scarf set on hazard stacking teams. Paired with something that can keep spikes up (looking at you Greninja), hoops can just hang out on the bench until turn 20, and then You come in and cleanup the enemy team after it has taken a round or two of chip. Still, other scarfers and dug are no fun, but hoopa is still almost always a guaranteed kill.
Hoopa-C is frankly irrelevant in OU, so please refrain from bringing it up. Despite that brutal power, isn't Hoopa-U kind of slow for its Scarf role with so many faster Scarfers existing? Again, feel free to correct me on this in case I'm wrong. LO looks good because of the raw mixed power output.
Ferrothorn: not going to make a formal nom here, but I think this is due for a rise and maybe some other people can discuss. Spdef Spikes+powerwhip set has been putting in so much work. It checks all the physical attackers right now, leech seed can cheese out fatter opponents and cushions switches and it is such a good spikes setter. For some reason tapu fini feels like ferro is a free switch, so you just bop 'em when they taunt you. I would think the main counter argument being that volcarona gets a free QD, but again, ferro can run twave and totally bungle volcs efforts.
Keeping Ferrothorn in on Volcarona is unwise; you'll risk being OHKOed by Fire Blast or the rare Fiery Dance, the latter of which nets it a Sp. Attack boost half of the time.
Damn son, It seems like I'm trying to raise Hydreigon to A+ or something. Yeah, Hoopa Unbound outclasses Specs Hydreigon, bar Pursuit resist which is rare nowadays and some speed which is nice. 3 Attacks+Roost LO sounds neat, checking Heatran, Dugtrio, A-Marowak and Volcarona, but it's very easy to wear down by its Fight, Bug, Ice, Dragon and Fairy twice. 4 last ones are all covered by 1 steel type, and there's a bunch of fight checks aswell in the tier, starting by Lando-T. The Scarf set is faster than Tapu Fini and forces Zygarde to Extreme Speed at +1.
The thing is, Hydreigon did this already, what has changed? Simple: Pheromosa. She can't get a Beast Boost for free on it, the rise of threads like Protean Gren has decreased the viability of some Hydreigon's checks such as Tapu Fini, and I think it deserves a raise to C+, where he can share his rank along such important Pokemon in the metagame as Volcanion, A-Ninetales, or M-Beedrill.
Why is excadrill so bad? Doesn't it have a niche of stealth rock + rapid spin, especially since Pheromosa is gone? I'm wondering why it is in B rank, and I am not arguing for a raise yet.
Why is excadrill so bad? Doesn't it have a niche of stealth rock + rapid spin, especially since Pheromosa is gone? I'm wondering why it is in B rank, and I am not arguing for a raise yet.
Best reasons I can see is all the defoggers bop it with Fini/latios(idk if anyone really uses it or there other water rapid spinners) with surf, Zapdos with heatwave, greninja stacks them pretty well and clearly beats it mid game, and it's an uphill battle vs lando/garchomp/ferrothorn that all hit it harder while stacking.
Also azelf can taunt, rock/boom/fire blast.
Exadrill is a really cool lead tho vs stall/having mold breaker earthquake in general
Idk if it has any merit otherwise than being scarfed, rocks/toxic vs stall or sand rush swords dance(haven't seen for a while)
Balloon is nifty in some match-ups tho
If You're using him rapid spin is kind of an after thought I feel
Why is excadrill so bad? Doesn't it have a niche of stealth rock + rapid spin, especially since Pheromosa is gone? I'm wondering why it is in B rank, and I am not arguing for a raise yet.
Kinda because it loses to the most common spikers being gren and ferrothorn. Also because it does jack against the most common rocker and most common mon in general being lando. The fact it loses against those 3 which are the biggest hazard setters in the meta kinda diminishes it's purpose.
Also inb4 someone says "exca doesn't lose against gren with it's sash intact" thing is if it's your spinner it kinda comes in on rocks and or spikes anyway (I'm not going to assume you pull some crazy 50/50s and switch in drill on predicted ninja spike because it's a 50/50 and relying on 50/50s when it comes to sets or mons in general to accomplish their goal is bad.) so don't say that. Also neutral drill eq doesn't kill anyway so don't even bring that up (it does put it in lo range depending on roll though.)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also lets not mention the fact that starmie outclasses drill as a spinner at least imo because it can still live gunk from gren after rocks damage and with hp fire (even tho hp fire is niche) can 2hko ferro ( has a chance to ohko if spike is up and ferro switches in), and also doesn't lose against omnipresent lando-t.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 185-218 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 218-260 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Speaking of which I'm nomming starmie either for B or exca for C+ due to the fact that starmie accomplishes so much exca doesn't as a spinner. It provides so much pressure on switching as well with it's analytic boost. Also starmie appreciates pheromosa being gone as well.
Edit: Also forgot to mention the fact that as a rocker drill is outclassed by lando-t (ofc) and loses to many of the hazard removers in the tier including fini if it has scald or zapdos if it has heat wave (yes I'm aware that 3 atks roost zap is better and not many fini run scald, just presenting it as a possibility.)
I do think the one thing helping driller is that it has a lot of roles it can fufill even though it isn't particularly good at any one of them where as starmie is more one dimensional. I do agree that starmie is better at keeping hazards off the field but driller is more versitile (ie. sweeper in sand, hazard setter, etc.). That being said I wouldn't be opposed to a Starmie rise as hazard removal, especially for offensive teams, is so damn hard to come by.
With all the recent discussion on Hydreigon again, I'd like to quote a post I made in this thread a while ago. I used this thing a lot both in ORAS and SUMO and the post basically breaks down Hydra's strengths and weaknesses in the meta, along with a ton of calcs vs. relevant OU mons.
I hope this adds to the discussion on it, as i'm really in favor of a rise for this thing.
I used it a lot a while ago in combination with M-meta, who it synergizes incredibly well with. They form a very nice bulky offensive core who can beat each other's checks (Fire Blast/Flamethrower helps with skarm/sciz/ferro for example) and cover each other's weaknesses due to good type synergy.
Aside from the nice combo with the best mega in the tier, Hydreigon has some issues though. The transition to SUMO brought an influx of fairies that just don't care about either of its STABs (Bulu still gets bopped by Fblast though) en some things that it checked in XY, like Bisharp, have dropped off. Its base speed of 98 is also a bit underwhelming, but it does let it outspeed stuff like Kyurem, Lele, Zygarde, Lando, ... and a Modest nature still speed ties with Base 85's like Nidoking. And even though fairies give it some trouble, it has all the tools it wants to beat the overly common steel types with Earth Power, Fire Blast, Focus Blast or heck, even Superpower, or Flash Cannon for fairies. I believe it even gets defog, but please don't use that lol.
Which brings me to its main selling points: An unbelievably deep movepool, one of the deepest in the entire game, and great firepower coming off its 125 base Sp.A, combined with a usable Atk. stat of 105 and nice 92/90/90 bulk (this shouldn't be underestimated. It's a perfect R-Wash counter, amongst others).
Not all of its sets are equally good, but these are IMo the usable ones:
- Modest Life Orb with Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, coverage and Roost (I used this one the most for its wallbreaking potential. M-venu for example loses to this since Hydreigon has just the amount of bulk needed to tank some hits)
- Timid Specs with STABs and 2 coverage moves
- Timid/Modest Scarf with STABs, coverage and U-turn (Mostly for beating M-zam. Faster scarfers like Keldeo give it trouble, although it resists Scald and Metagross beats Sword-locked Keldeo)
I don't have the time right now to compare it against all the S through A- mons, or make a wall of calcs, but it's able to power through more mons than you would think at first sight and surprises or just straight up destroys unprepared teams.
I think I also have some replays but I'd have to go look for them. I'll edit this post with some when I have the time.
If the C ranks are for niche mons, then Hydreigon definitely deserves to sit at the top of it. It needs support and has some common checks/counters, but it puts in tons of work on the right teams. C+ would only do it justice IMO.
Edit: Talking about M-meta: Hydreigon checks it if it doesn't have Hammer Arm. Ice Punch doesn't OHKO and Dark Pulse does.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 307-361 (101.9 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 252-298 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even Timid OHKO's. Rocks give M-meta a 30% chance to kill you. Scarf has always got you covered.
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 344-407 (90 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 361-426 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You always outspeed and kill defensive Lando-T. Life Orb requires a Modest nature for the kill, but 252 speed EV's still make you faster.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 232-273 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Jolly doesn't kill you. Adamant does, but you will always outspeed that and kill first (even when Timid, which outspeeds Jolly Lando). Supersonic Skystrike is a clean OHKO on Hydra. It checks all Landorus sets beside 1.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 354-421 (108.9 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You OHKO each other. Only Scarf handles Gren, unless it wouldn't be running Ice Beam for some reason
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 165-195 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 125-147 (38.4 - 45.2%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You check A-gren and counter when it hasn't gotten a kill.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 218-257 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 142-168 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You kill it before it kills you, even when Timid. Only Timid scarf turns the 2HKO into a 33% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Mawile-Mega: 250-296 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is against Sp.Def Mawile. Modest is a clean OHKO. Iron Head never kills you (it does a max of 77% on the switch in since you're faster anyway), Sucker Punch does like 20% max
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 216-255 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Timid Specs double you chances. Modest specs is a kill but makes you slower if Lele is Timid.
Tricky matchup. You have to carry Flash Cannon in the first place. You outspeed, unless it's scarfed. If it's locked into psychic/psyshock you get a free hit though
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 416-491 (99.7 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
You always win this matchup. SubCoil only 3HKO's you with TA, you have 3 more points in speed and every other zygarde set is OHKO's by Draco Meteor.
Zard-Y
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 263-309 (88.5 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 171-202 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Tricky matchup. You live Fire Blast, but don't always OHKO with Draco. Scarf makes you faster, but will never OHKO Zard.
Volcarona
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 282-333 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
These things don't carry Bug Buzz anymore. Modest LO and Timid Specs make you able to OHKO. HP Ice and Inferno Overdrive from Volcarona do about 55% to you. You always win if they have HP Ground instead of Ice, or some other coverage. You always lose if they have HP Ice and go for QD, but still do a nice chunk of damage in the proces.
Toxapex
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Toxapex: 105-125 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Toxapex: 168-199 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Toxapex typically doesn't run this much Sp.Def investment, but you still have a nice chance of 2HKO'ing it with LO modest. or 2 Draco's from Specs including the Sp.A drop.
This is vs. PhysDef: 252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Venusaur
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 144-172 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 235-278 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is vs. Bulky M-venu. You always outspeed and 2HKO. Offensive M-venu dies to a Draco. Sludge Bomb has a 20% chance to 2HKO you.
Hoopa
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hydreigon: 156-183 (48 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 234-277 (77.7 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
You outspeed this thing. Timid Specs turns it into a 68% chance to OHKO after rocks for you. beware of Drain Punch though. Pair your Hydreigon with Landorus and you cover like half the meta.
Sableye
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 191-226 (62.8 - 74.3%)
This is from Timid life orb. You 2HKO Sab with every set except Scarf. Chansey obviously walls you to hell and back though.
You beat Ferro, Scizor, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Excadrill and Magnezone with Fire Blast, beat Gengar when you're scarfed or when it wouldn't be running Focus Blast, beat Heatran, Excadrill and Magnezone with Earth Power and it only gets better when you're looking down the ranks.
It obviously can't run all those sets at once, but beats a lot of top tier threats regardless of set. Looking at this I might even go as far as to nominate it for B-, but I could see how the current meta and its subpar speed hold it back. I used it a lot and enjoyed nuking stuff with it, but speed is definitely a very limiting factor on this thing. If only it were 3 points faster so it tied with Garchomp and outsped the Zards...
Nidoking sits at B- though, and Modest Hydreigon is exactly as fast as Timid Nidoking (285 speed). Ground/Poison STABs are pretty nice in this meta, but Draco Meteor hits almost twice as hard and Dark spam is still good despite the fairies. I guess checking Koko is pretty usefull, so maybe C+ is a good place for Hydra for now.
This isn't a formal nom but I've been using Z-bounce Gyarados and it's absolutely running rampant. It has just a couple of checks that'll keep it from setting up but once that Zapdos, Rotom, or whatever is removed... gg. If I see that the opponent is lacking a gyarados answer in team preview I can even get away with lead gyarados and go right into sub+DD purely off of surprise factor.
Of course it has rock/electric weakness so mons like nihilego (scarf outspeeds +1), lando-t w/stone edge (or rockium-z), Koko, and the aforementioned zapdos and rotom all prevent gyarados from setting up and/or OHKO it. But I've been pairing it with LR Alola-Wak, for example, to take care of the electrics which helps a ton. So IMO it's weaknesses are relatively easy to work around without devoting too many team slots to it.
Bottom line this mon is way too easy to set up and way too hard to stop once it gets going for it to be B+.
I would like to nominate Tangrowth from A to A+. Tangrowth is one of the premier defensive pivots in this meta and has been so for a while, providing a shit ton of utility for teams. Its AV set acts as a check to a lot of common Pokemon such as Scarf Keld, Scarf Garchomp, Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Sub Coil Zygarde just to name a few. There is frankly almost no opportunity cost for using it, is super splashable, pairs well with practically every Pokemon in the metagame right now, and is one of the best Pokemon on bulky offenses at the moment. It's got access to moves like Knock Off as well, which can punish switches and wear down mons reliant on Leftovers recovery, and great natural bulk, allowing it to help with a large portion of the tier. Furthermore, its coverage can sometimes even catch Pokemon looking to abuse it unaware ( Rock Slide hitting Volcarona for example). Regenerator is super good on Tangrowth, meaning it can be extremely tricky to wear down, even if you surprise it with a lure move. Its Grass typing also means it can block SpDef Celesteela Leech Seed and threaten it with a Knock Off, allowing a team to wear it down. It also benefits from Pheromosas ban, as Pheromosa (especially Quiver Dance sets) could punish Tangrowth, unless it ran extremely rare coverage like Aerial Ace. RH Tang is still pretty decent too, checking Pokemon like Mega Metagross and Continental Crush Lando, two of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame right now, and its monstrous defense stat and access to moves like Sleep Powder also help it a lot. While Tangrowth does fail to check some Pokemon like Protean Greninja, which means it has to scout for the Gren set, and AV sets don't pressure Mega Medicham or Mega Mawile as much as they would want (still live a hit, and can get severe damage through Leaf Storm / Giga or chunk Mawile with EQ), and of course, Tangrowth is still punished by super effective Pokemon like Volcarona and Heatran(although AV Tang commonly carries EQ, while occasionally opting to run Rock Slide), it still is a top tier Pokemon, especially on Bulky Offenses.
