Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Seth_]

-Don't try to break steel types with dragalge. It's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth
-What truth?
-You should use teammates to patch one mon's weakness
*matrix crashes*

Of course dragalge is in no way as solid as metagross or greninja. It needs team support (like magnezone) to be effective. However even then because of its amazing typing and good special bulk it has it's own niche, among meta full of special attackers and fairy types.

And specs is one set that I mention, but it is old, ORAS set. Sub+fightium z seems amazing, but I have not tested it yet. With this set you avoid 50/50 on switch in because you have sub and you are able to deal heavy damage to all steel types.

 

[DrakeBugatti]

You say "amazing typing" but its weak to ground and psychic, two of the most common attacking types in the meta. Dragon isn't a good offensive type with all the tapus and such, and poison is only ok.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

-Don't try to break steel types with dragalge. It's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth
-What truth?
-You should use teammates to patch one mon's weakness
*matrix crashes*

Of course dragalge is in no way as solid as metagross or greninja. It needs team support (like magnezone) to be effective. However even then because of its amazing typing and good special bulk it has it's own niche, among meta full of special attackers and fairy types.

And specs is one set that I mention, but it is old, ORAS set. Sub+fightium z seems amazing, but I have not tested it yet. With this set you avoid 50/50 on switch in because you have sub and you are able to deal heavy damage to all steel types.

Well yes of course you have team support, I was only replying to the fact that most of the time (if you're choice locked) the coverage moves aren't as great as they seem. I also like the sub idea but also keep in mind that you're not only switching into all the mons you mention (which mostly deal around 25-30% on resisted hits), plus in the hazard stacked meta and the fact that sub takes 25% of your health, you're draining HP very fast.

Its typing isn't amazing as mentioned above, as psychic and ground hit hard, and you're also neutral to all fairies. The rise of things like SSSS Gyara, Lando, and other hard hitters hurt the special bulk and are a problem for Zone too (Dugtrio).

Again, I like Dragalge - not trying to be pessimistic, just objective, so no need to reply with *matrix crashes* shenanigans lol. I'm just saying it requires a lot of support, whereas I'd rather take something like Specs Primarina or Nidoking for wallbreaking. But just personal opinion.

 

[Sun King]

Well yes of course you have team support, I was only replying to the fact that most of the time (if you're choice locked) the coverage moves aren't as great as they seem. I also like the sub idea but also keep in mind that you're not only switching into all the mons you mention (which mostly deal around 25-30% on resisted hits), plus in the hazard stacked meta and the fact that sub takes 25% of your health, you're draining HP very fast.

It's typing isn't amazing as mentioned above, as psychic and ground hit hard, and you're also neutral to all fairies. The rise of things like SSSS Gyara, Lando, and other hard hitters hurt the special bulk and are a problem for Zone too (Dugtrio).

Again, I like Dragalge - not trying to be pessimistic, just objective, so no need to reply with *matrix crashes* shenanigans lol. I'm just saying it requires a lot of support, whereas I'd rather take something like Specs Primarina. But just personal opinion.

As I mentioned, this was my experience with Dragalge. It's cool, but really not easy to pull off. I think you're much better off going with something that isn't weak to Ground/Psychic

 

[Seth_]

Eh... Guys, you are hiding with your palm all advantages of dragalge's typing and focusing only on weakness. Yeah, it is weak to ground and psychic, so don't switch it in metagross or garchomp. It isn't supposed to do so.

I'm not really sure you realize that in this meta there are diffrent mons than metagross and lando (and looking at usage stats, it would not surprise me). There are mons like grenina or pheromosa, volcarona, zardY, tapu koko that even with supper efective coverage cannot OHKO dragalge and get OHKO back or get really hurt at least. Tell me that all these mons are irrelevant in current meta and tell me another mon that can take all those threats. Chansey? Good luck filing that on offence (and I absolutely despise fact that every time I go on ladder I see all those teambuilding masterminds trying to do so).

There are mons that can switch in metagross, like bronzong or gastrodon, but you don't switch them into volcarona or zardY. Does it meat they are bad?

And Volcarona is rising threat. It might not be obvious from point of view of ladder player but look at SPL replays (tournaments are always one step ahead ladder in terms of metagame).

 

[Sun King]

Eh... Guys, you are hiding with your palm all advantages of dragalge's typing and focusing only on weakness. Yeah, it is weak to ground and psychic, so don't switch it in metagross or garchomp. It isn't supposed to do so.

I'm not really sure you realize that in this meta there are diffrent mons than metagross and lando (and looking at usage stats, it would not surprise me). There are mons like grenina or pheromosa, volcarona, zardY, tapu koko that even with supper efective coverage cannot OHKO dragalge and get OHKO back or get really hurt at least. Tell me that all these mons are irrelevant in current meta and tell me another mon that can take all those threats. Chansey? Good luck filing that on offence (and I absolutely despise fact that every time I go on ladder I see all those teambuilding masterminds trying to do so).

There are mons that can switch in metagross, like bronzong or gastrodon, but you don't switch them into volcarona or zardY. Does it meat they are bad?

And Volcarona is rising threat. It might not be obvious from point of view of ladder player but look at SPL replays (tournaments are always one step ahead ladder in terms of metagame).

No but like I'm not hiding with my palm anything. I spent a week trying the thing out and it was really underwhelming. Can you use it? Yes! Is it worth it in my opinion? No! I wanted to use it to handle exactly the things you mentioned, but honestly it's good at handling them on paper. It's reeeeally predictable, and gets worn down really easily.

 

[Leo]

Eh... Guys, you are hiding with your palm all advantages of dragalge's typing and focusing only on weakness. Yeah, it is weak to ground and psychic, so don't switch it in metagross or garchomp. It isn't supposed to do so.

I'm not really sure you realize that in this meta there are diffrent mons than metagross and lando (and looking at usage stats, it would not surprise me). There are mons like grenina or pheromosa, volcarona, zardY, tapu koko that even with supper efective coverage cannot OHKO dragalge and get OHKO back or get really hurt at least. Tell me that all these mons are irrelevant in current meta and tell me another mon that can take all those threats. Chansey? Good luck filing that on offence (and I absolutely despise fact that every time I go on ladder I see all those teambuilding masterminds trying to do so).

There are mons that can switch in metagross, like bronzong or gastrodon, but you don't switch them into volcarona or zardY. Does it meat they are bad?

And Volcarona is rising threat. It might not be obvious from point of view of ladder player but look at SPL replays (tournaments are always one step ahead ladder in terms of metagame).

Dragalge isn't a Volcarona counter. It loses to Extrasensory Gren and Zard Y 2hkos it too iirc. I think it's even less viable this gen than it was last gen because of its speed tier and awful typing considering current meta trends.
Edit: Zard Y doesn't 2hko but beats it on the long run since Drag can only come in once and lacks recovery
Edit2: I was calc'ing max HP rip. It's actually a 2hko most of the time and you also mentioned Bulu which runs Zen.

 

[Seth_]

I am surprised how flawed you have imagination about this mon. Don't expect it to be chansey. It won't sponge every special attack. Look at it as mon, that can eat a hit and hit back harder. Don't be that guy who switches dragalge in tapu koko, tapu koko volt switch into maetagross and then "oh shiet, I don't have metagross counter". Take advantage out of that, use bronzong, or air baloon magnezone. Luring centrain things can be advantage, if you "can into teambuilding". If you don't know, there are two types of synergy, and both can be used to create successful team. It was nicely explained in one thread, but I cannot find it.

Look at SPL replays:


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-244009

No real dragalge switch ins, unless you want to sack 50% of your metagros each time it comes on draco. And dragalge can come on free on tangrowth, on nihilego, on keldeo, clefable.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-245183

Similar situatnon. If you trap steel types (each of them has leftovers, so no shed shell shenemigains) teams is decimated by dragalge. And dragalge can come one easily on fini, this thing can't hurt it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-243259

Third one is diffrent, one side has heatran, so you might want to click focus blast sometimes.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 273-322 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 156-185 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Ice Beam does more)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 131-155 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 77-91 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Then you can't bring in Dragalge into Volcarona, assuming it quiver dances on switch:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 170-200 (51.8 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Dragalge in Grassy Terrain: 132-155 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

Yes, it does take on things such as Koko, Fini, Bulu etc, but the fact that it lacks reliable recovery and most of the mons it's supposed to check 2hko it doesn't help. This is subjective as some mons require rocks up for the 2hko, but most players get rocks up asap and that requires you go out of your way and defog. Also I'll say it again: Dugtrio.

I'd like to see player, who uses volcarona, or zardY team and is able to keep rock on enemy's side and away from it's.

 

[AM]

It would help if you posted replays where Dragalge was actually used in a high level setting. Considering just from a teambuilding perspective none of these teams in the replays would actually have a real issue with Dragalge which is a barely viable mon that is already trivial to discuss about anyways from opportunity cost in team slot alone.

 

[samurott14rogers]

As for Dragalge, this thing can be very fun to use, and is very useful for some situations. However, you can't even consider that when you take into account how many situations Dragalge is USELESS in. As mentioned before, its horrendous speed stat leaves it outsped by basically anything.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 273-322 (83.2 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 156-185 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Ice Beam does more)
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge in Sun: 131-155 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 77-91 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Then you can't bring in Dragalge into Volcarona, assuming it quiver dances on switch:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 170-200 (51.8 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Dragalge in Grassy Terrain: 132-155 (40.2 - 47.2%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

Yes, it does take on things such as Koko, Fini, Bulu etc, but the fact that it lacks reliable recovery and most of the mons it's supposed to check 2hko it doesn't help. This is subjective as some mons require rocks up for the 2hko, but most players get rocks up asap and that requires you go out of your way and defog. Also I'll say it again: Dugtrio.

As suggested by these damage calculations (thanks DownAbove), Dragalge isn't bulky enough to take many common threats standing up, even if Drag is supposed to check them and even though Dragalge had good special defence. It's fine not to be that bulky, but if you're not going to, then have good attacking stats and at least decent speed....Oh wait....Silly me; did I mention Dragalge's special attack can't even top 80? I know it can have Specs and a powerful Draco Meteor, but the Specs force Dragalge to switch out against too many foes. Sorry, but, but IMO, it just can't prosper in this tier where it doesn't frequently check all of the Pokemon it's supposed to.

 

[Gary]

Don't make me blacklist another mon. I'd be happy to look into re ranking Dragalge elsewhere but no solid evidence has been put forward for me to do so, other than just arguing for the sake of it. No replays are being posted, just pure theorymoning. The next headass post I see about Dragalge that doesn't provide any solid evidence, this shit is going straight to the blacklist. I hate doing this because I like having good discussion on lower tiered Pokemon that could potentially have hidden potential, but it's proven to me time and time again that some people just don't know how to follow the fucking rules, and are ruining it for everybody else. Maybe if people are calling you out on your bullshit, you should try and step up your game by providing some solid evidence aka replays/high level matches instead of just sitting there spewing BS that anyone could come up with just by glancing over the VR for a few minutes.

Quit it.

 

[TURBODERP]

I think Mantine warrants going back up into B with the rise of Keldeo, Gengar, Volcarona, and Special Phermosa.

Sub CM Keldeo with Normalium-Z for Hyper Beam is on the rise, and for good reason-it's a good set that muscles through common Keldeo answers like Mega Venusaur, Amoongus, Tapu Fini, and Toxapex. But Mantine can switch in as Keldeo hits CM, eat the +1 200BP Breakneck Blitz, and Roost it off, Haze away the boosts, and stall out Keldeo with ease (or if you pack Air Slash, you can break the sub even if Keldeo is at +1).

+1 252 SpA Keldeo Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 218-257 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scarf/Specs Keldeo is also walled by Mantine unless HP Electric is carried, and Scarf HP Electric only has a 25% to 2HKO Mantine from full anyways.

Scarf Gengar is also on the rise. Not many good ghost resists in OU, and most that are there get blown back by Focus Blast. Mantine handles Scarf Gengar even with Stealth Rocks up, and LO Gengar can't break past you if SR aren't up either.

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 136-161 (36.3 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

QD Pheromosa is on the rise (as is Specs IIRC), as it's a really good sweeper and forces out stuff to set up QD once and then break past stuff with a Z-fighting move, snag a Beast Boost, and rampage even more. Luckily, Mantine eats anything Pheromosa can throw at it with ease, and can 2HKO with Scald, Roost off the damage, or Haze away the boosts.

+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 187-221 (50 - 59%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Firium-Z Volcarona is also another rising threat, as +1 Inferno OBERDRIBU is really strong and blows through many resists like Latios, while Heatran is nailed by HP Ground. Mantine isn't having any of that though, and EATS anything Volcarona can throw while Hazing away boosts (and then slapping a Toxic on for good measure).

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 207-245 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes, Mantine really wants SR to be off the field, but that's true for most defensive Pokemon anyways, and Mantine at least isn't hit by Spikes and pairs well with hazard removers like SpDef Excadrill.

 

[AM]

I think Mantine should go down as opposed to move up. I have not seen a consistent build with Mantine in a long while ever since its initial hype factor. QD Pheromosas and Spec Variants are known to run HP Electric, it's very dangerous to assume that Mantine has the upper edge against these variants with those two realistic possibilities. Gengar with Thunderbolt is a viable option as well to hit targets such as Toxapex, Gyarados, among a handful of others. Mantine has some unique defensive qualities but the nature of most teams in having ways that puts momentum on their side completely when in front of Mantine, think Tapu Koko Z-Rock Lando-T, makes Mantine a big momentum drain to myself. If people want to keep it at B- I guess that's fine, but it's a really lackluster mon even with some of these new trends mentioned in the above post and it definitely shouldn't be moving up until some very convincing builds start showing up and working well utilizing it.

Nidoking was discussed a couple of pages back but discussion kind of just stopped. I would raise it to B or B+ for most of the points already stated by ABR and bludz previously. Lots of the defensive backbones used in the metagame, Fini Lando as the most basic example, are taken advantage of by Nidoking due its Stab and coverage options. Honestly not sure what else to say that was stated before

I posted this in analysis discussion but Smeargle should move up to B- or C+. Smeargle I think is a much better Webs setter than Shuckle for offensive based teams. A lot of offenses in the tier rely on their speed control both speed tier wise and scarfers in handling certain counterplays that Webs can either mitigate and or just cripple entirely if Webs are up on the field, one example being Scarf neutral speed nature Pheromosa now outpaced by a +1 M-Gyarados. It's also easier for Smeargle to maintain its Webs due to its higher speed tier and access to Utility options in Taunt, Encore, and Memento. Two basic replays to provide a general idea of its use while being paired with viable mons that are supplemented by Webs.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-532240791
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-532244476

I think Kyurem-B is a bit high but don't really have a well thought out argument for that discussion.

 

[Nuked]

Here's a nomination:

Volcarona -> A

This thing is just such a potent sweeper in the current meta. In particular, it pretty much destroys balance, since it sets up on stuff like Celesteela, Tangrowth, Bulu, and even Mega Metagross. The speed tier is really nice because it outspeeds and KOs common scarfers like Lele and Lando. I'd also definitely say it's on par as sweeper with Zard X, if not better, since Volc can use really powerful Z-Moves to muscle past would be checks. It doesn't even have to have a boost to do work in the early / mid game, since Fire Blast is still a really strong move, and you can even use Fiery Dance to possibly get special attack boosts which can aid in sweeping. The addition of Z-Moves really helps it, giving it the extra power it needs. It's in my opinion just as good as the other Pokemon in the A rank and more threatening than most of the Pokemon in A-. Its typing is also decent for a sweeper, resisting 3 forms of priority in Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Shard.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706

Volcarona sweeps in the end (gets a nice prediction on Garchomp coming in with HP Ice) and notably actually beats Tapu Fini 1v1. Offensive teams pretty much need a scarfer that's faster, such as Garchomp or Terrakion, but that's pretty much it. Balanced teams just get annihilated with Ground / Fire / Grass coverage since it beats stuff like Heatran, Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Celesteela, and much more, and all these types of mons are really common. Obviously some flaws are bad physical bulk and awful rocks weakness, but defogging is pretty easy with stuff like Skarmory and Tapu Fini being pretty reliable.

Edit: The only two viable Unaware users in OU, Clefable and Quagsire, don't beat Volc 1v1.

Second Edit: I was a little hesitant in posting this originally, but here goes:

Amoonguss -> B+/B

Amoonguss isn't particularly bad in a sense, but the reason I think it needs to be dropped is because of how much better Tangrowth is, and to a lesser extent, Toxapex. Tangrowth checks pretty much everything that Amoonguss checks but does it better. The difference is that Tangrowth is way bulkier since it can viably run Assault Vest, has actual offensive presence, a Ground resist, and Knock Off. Ironically, even though Amoonguss is supposed to counter Tapu Koko and Fini, it can't even spore either of those because the terrains are up, and that's supposed to be its selling point over Tangrowth or Venusaur. Whenever I'm building a team I never consider putting Amoonguss over Tangrowth because 99% of the time Tangrowth does what it does better. The Psychic weakness is also really nasty considering how common and effective stuff like Metagross, Jirachi, and Lele are. Once Spore's been used, it's setup fodder for dangerous sweepers like the aforementioned Volcarona, Landorus-T, Zard X, among a lot others. I definitely don't think that Amoonguss is bad, but in the current meta I believe there are better options. I think dropping all the way to B is pushing it but I just think it's currently outshined by Tangrowth and Toxapex which fit better on stall / balance / bulky offense teams.

 

[Leo]

Here's a nomination:

Volcarona -> A

This thing is just such a potent sweeper in the current meta. In particular, it pretty much destroys balance, since it sets up on stuff like Celesteela, Tangrowth, Bulu, and even Mega Metagross. The speed tier is really nice because it outspeeds and KOs common scarfers like Lele and Lando. I'd also definitely say it's on par as sweeper with Zard X, if not better, since Volc can use really powerful Z-Moves to muscle past would be checks. It doesn't even have to have a boost to do work in the early / mid game, since Fire Blast is still a really strong move, and you can even use Fiery Dance to possibly get special attack boosts which can aid in sweeping. The addition of Z-Moves really helps it, giving it the extra power it needs. It's in my opinion just as good as the other Pokemon in the A rank and more threatening than most of the Pokemon in A-. Its typing is also decent for a sweeper, resisting 3 forms of priority in Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Ice Shard.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7pokebankou-234706

Volcarona sweeps in the end (gets a nice prediction on Garchomp coming in with HP Ice) and notably actually beats Tapu Fini 1v1. Offensive teams pretty much need a scarfer that's faster, such as Garchomp or Terrakion, but that's pretty much it. Balanced teams just get annihilated with Ground / Fire / Grass coverage since it beats stuff like Heatran, Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Celesteela, and much more, and all these types of mons are really common. Obviously some flaws are bad physical bulk and awful rocks weakness, but defogging is pretty easy with stuff like Skarmory and Tapu Fini being pretty reliable.

Edit: The only two viable Unaware users in OU, Clefable and Quagsire, don't beat Volc 1v1.

When you plan on noming Volc but get ninja'd lmao. I have to agree with this, Volc is just such a big threat and something that should be considered when teambuilding otherwise you will have a bad time against it because of the lack of defensive answers that fit on BO (the most common playstyle rn). It is also one of the mons that made Scarfchomp rise imo. It loves Talon being gone and the fact that it doesn't need to carry Buzz anymore because Lati dies to Z-Blast and Ttar is nowhere to be seen is really good for its sweeping potential. Honestly I think this is a much more relevant threat that stuff like Keldeo Zam and kartana that sit at A-.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I can see Volc in A. As far as potency as a sweeper goes I definitely feel it's on par with X-zard.

The intensive hazard support it needs is def a mark against it but y-zard and mega pinsir both have roughly the same constraint, and I feel Volcarona is just a bit better than them. It's a really scary mon and it enjoys the current meta right now.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Do we count the current meta with/without dugtrio? Without I think it's fair to count nidoking/fire moth to rise seeing how rock-quake sash dugtrio might've been the hardest counter to them.

Surprised no body said anything about nidoking having superpower/sucker punch to deal with faster switch ins/pink blobs.

Just didn't think it was worth a post alone

 

[PokePoindexter]

I can agree with Volcarona moving up to A. That Quiver Dance set is just ridiculous. +1 Volcarona can easily beat many of the top threats, including Landorus-T, Bulu, Lele, Mega Metagross, Pheromosa, and Celesteela (to name a few), and with Giga Drain and HP Ground you can also beat Tapu Fini and Heatran 1v1. When paired with the signature support move from my nominee below, that list also includes Ash-Greninja, Salamence and Mega Charizard X.

As for my nomination:

Alolan Ninetales: C+ -> B/B-
The combination of Snow Warning + Aurora Veil is pretty much the only thing Alolan Ninetales has going for it, but the amount of support AV provides is off the charts for offensive teams. Setup sweepers like Volcarona, Megazard X, and Zygarde-50% can use it to switch in comfortably against the Steel-types A-Ninetales draws in, use their respective boosting attack, and proceed to wreck shop. Other non-setup attackers with some degree of bulk, such as Landorus-T and Heatran can also use it to take a couple extra hits and dish out huge amounts of damage in return.

A-Ninetales also has just enough Special Attack that with Freeze-Dry it can dispatch non-Scarfed Landorus-T, Garchomp, Salamence, Zygarde-50% and Pelipper, as well as counter Tapu Fini, and it can do similarly to Ash-Greninja, Buzzwole, Keldeo and Hoopa-U with Moonblast.

In other words, A-Ninetales may be a one-trick pony...or fox, I suppose, but what it provides with that trick is much more substantial than what pretty much any other Pokemon in the C+ tier and below provide (I'm looking directly at you, Shedinja).

 

[Colonel M]

Do we count the current meta with/without dugtrio? Without I think it's fair to count nidoking/fire moth to rise seeing how rock-quake sash dugtrio might've been the hardest counter to them.

As Dugtrio is still currently ranked you will assume that Dugtrio exists within the meta (in other words to your question - count current meta with Dugtrio).

Volcarona and Nidoking probably are due to rise - I know ABR and others have vouched for Nidoking, and I don't really have a lot of arguments for Volcarona at the moment. I'll probably re-visit this topic tomorrow to post about a Pokemon rising, though it may surprise them.

Surprised no body said anything about nidoking having superpower/sucker punch to deal with faster switch ins/pink blobs.

If you're going for the "faster switch-ins" you're better off using Substitute. Substitute can't be blocked by things such as Psychic Terrain and, quite frankly, Nidoking is much more threatening behind a Substitute instead of Sucker Punch. Both Sucker Punch and Superpower require way too much to really get any worthwhile measure in to beat things like Chansey or stop sweepers at higher health, and then you're forced to take recoil, defensive drops, or rely too heavily in prediction.

tl;dr version - either use 4 Special Attacks or use Substitute + 3 Special Attacks. Don't bother with Superpower or Sucker Punch - they aren't worth it.

 

[Wob]

Do we count the current meta with/without dugtrio? Without I think it's fair to count nidoking/fire moth to rise seeing how rock-quake sash dugtrio might've been the hardest counter to them.

Surprised no body said anything about nidoking having superpower/sucker punch to deal with faster switch ins/pink blobs.

Just didn't think it was worth a post alone

Dugtrio isn't banned yet. It can't be used on the suspect ladder, but it isn't banned.

e: looks like I got sniped

I can agree with Volcarona moving up to A. That Quiver Dance set is just ridiculous. +1 Volcarona can easily beat many of the top threats, including Landorus-T, Bulu, Lele, Mega Metagross, Pheromosa, and Celesteela (to name a few), and with Giga Drain and HP Ground you can also beat Tapu Fini and Heatran 1v1. When paired with the signature support move from my nominee below, that list also includes Ash-Greninja, Salamence and Mega Charizard X.

As for my nomination:

Alolan Ninetales: C+ -> B/B-
The combination of Snow Warning + Aurora Veil is pretty much the only thing Alolan Ninetales has going for it, but the amount of support AV provides is off the charts for offensive teams. Setup sweepers like Volcarona, Megazard X, and Zygarde-50% can use it to switch in comfortably against the Steel-types A-Ninetales draws in, use their respective boosting attack, and proceed to wreck shop. Other non-setup attackers with some degree of bulk, such as Landorus-T and Heatran can also use it to take a couple extra hits and dish out huge amounts of damage in return.

A-Ninetales also has just enough Special Attack that with Freeze-Dry it can dispatch non-Scarfed Landorus-T, Garchomp, Salamence, Zygarde-50% and Pelipper, as well as counter Tapu Fini, and it can do similarly to Ash-Greninja, Buzzwole, Keldeo and Hoopa-U with Moonblast.

In other words, A-Ninetales may be a one-trick pony...or fox, I suppose, but what it does provide is much more substantial than most of the other Pokemon in the C tier provide (I'm looking directly at you, Shedinja).

Gonna have to disagree with Alolan Ninetales > B-. Aurora Veil is really cool and certainly provides a lot of support to the teams which it's used on, but its niche ends there. Running Assault Vest means you can't use Aurora Veil, so that set is horribly outclassed. Its bulk is also mediocre at best, especially since you can't really invest in it when you need to invest fully in Speed and Special Attack if you want to make a dent. Fairy/Ice is not the greatest defensive typing either, which further adds to its frailty. Ninetales-A is decent, but I don't see it being B right now.

 

[LeNorm]

As Dugtrio is still currently ranked you will assume that Dugtrio exists within the meta (in other words to your question - count current meta with Dugtrio).

Volcarona and Nidoking probably are due to rise - I know ABR and others have vouched for Nidoking, and I don't really have a lot of arguments for Volcarona at the moment. I'll probably re-visit this topic tomorrow to post about a Pokemon rising, though it may surprise them.

If you're going for the "faster switch-ins" you're better off using Substitute. Substitute can't be blocked by things such as Psychic Terrain and, quite frankly, Nidoking is much more threatening behind a Substitute instead of Sucker Punch. Both Sucker Punch and Superpower require way too much to really get any worthwhile measure in to beat things like Chansey or stop sweepers at higher health, and then you're forced to take recoil, defensive drops, or rely too heavily in prediction.

tl;dr version - either use 4 Special Attacks or use Substitute + 3 Special Attacks. Don't bother with Superpower or Sucker Punch - they aren't worth it.

Please do give Nidoking a buff up the rankings if possible - it really does counter a lot of the top threats very well, as it has one of the best abilities around, great offensive typing, and really useful coverage moves (flamethrower and bolt beam). It does have lacklustre speed, but there are very few mons that can switch into it.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

DeathByWobbuffet by AV he meant Aurora Veil.

 

[TheDoff]

Not sure if it's been talked about already but i wanted to suggest:

Unranked -> Ranked

Ludicolo boasts a unique typing that makes it a great abuser of rain. Especially in this current meta filled with fast but frail threats, its solid power, amazing speed under rain and great movepool allow it to demolish offense given the right amount of support.

Under rain a jolly Ludicolo packs 524 speed, enough to outspeed every scarfer up to base 110s (not included), but most importantly it outspeeds ash-greninja, every tapu (bar scarf koko) and very notably pheromosa. Outside of rain it still has enough speed to nail most landos and get a hit off on non-jolly/timid hoopa-u.

Base 90 SpA is definitely not overwhelming but under rain its surf is almost as strong as tapu-koko's thunderbolt, and we all know how devastating that is. Other than that, it relies on coverage and some prediction to score supereffective hits that easily 2hko most of the meta.

Its 80/70/100 natural bulk is also very solid for an offensive mon, and can be compared to Volcarona's for an idea. It can usually take one neutral hit from a defensive mon and proceed to 2hko. Also the water-grass typing is great not only offensively but defensively too. Ludicolo easily tanks most priority moves (aqua jet, bullet punch), as well as having the ability to come in on EQs taking minimal damage.

However the thing that sets it apart from all other rain abusers is having a way to hit fat waters incredibly hard. It can force in and KO tapu-fini with its grass STAB, and that's something that the likes of Kingdra wish they could do.

Here's a set I've been using recently on the ladder with great success:

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast/Hp electric

Here are some calcs to put into numbers what i just said above (all assuming no stealth rocks)

252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Tapu Fini: 182-218 (52.9 - 63.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 99-117 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko in Rain: 285-335 (101.4 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 208-247 (60.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Lele in Rain: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 330-390 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa in Rain: 477-563 (168.5 - 198.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Rain: 257-304 (86.5 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega in Rain: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm obviously not trying to paint Ludicolo as the overlord of OU, but I believe it should be at least ranked. It definitely has a niche and with the correct support it can do very good work as a late game cleaner or as a mid-game breaker.


Some replays as well:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533460836 Could have done much more if not for scarf koko
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533493266 Mono dark (?) but still had a few checks and it did work nonetheless
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-533501844 AV tangrowth and tapu fini were not enough

P.S: I just posted a RMT on the team I used on the replays, check it out for more about how I feel Ludicolo should be used in OU and the team support options to make it work.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mexican-rain-ft-mega-pinsir.3595919/

 

[Lemon Ginger]

I can agree with Volcarona moving up to A. That Quiver Dance set is just ridiculous. +1 Volcarona can easily beat many of the top threats, including Landorus-T, Bulu, Lele, Mega Metagross, Pheromosa, and Celesteela (to name a few), and with Giga Drain and HP Ground you can also beat Tapu Fini and Heatran 1v1. When paired with the signature support move from my nominee below, that list also includes Ash-Greninja, Salamence and Mega Charizard X.

As for my nomination:

Alolan Ninetales: C+ -> B/B-
The combination of Snow Warning + Aurora Veil is pretty much the only thing Alolan Ninetales has going for it, but the amount of support AV provides is off the charts for offensive teams. Setup sweepers like Volcarona, Megazard X, and Zygarde-50% can use it to switch in comfortably against the Steel-types A-Ninetales draws in, use their respective boosting attack, and proceed to wreck shop. Other non-setup attackers with some degree of bulk, such as Landorus-T and Heatran can also use it to take a couple extra hits and dish out huge amounts of damage in return.

A-Ninetales also has just enough Special Attack that with Freeze-Dry it can dispatch non-Scarfed Landorus-T, Garchomp, Salamence, Zygarde-50% and Pelipper, as well as counter Tapu Fini, and it can do similarly to Ash-Greninja, Buzzwole, Keldeo and Hoopa-U with Moonblast.

In other words, A-Ninetales may be a one-trick pony...or fox, I suppose, but what it provides with that trick is much more substantial than what pretty much any other Pokemon in the C+ tier and below provide (I'm looking directly at you, Shedinja).

I'm going to second this nomination. I made the same one along time ago, and it got unnoticed. Not letting that happen again.

Again, this spot on the VR should just be called Aurora veil, since that's all Ninetales can do, however, AV is just so grossly effective with bulky set up sweepers, that I think the move alone makes anything that can set it in one turn worthy of B.

Great post in Ninetales thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/alola-ninetales.3587622/page-5#post-7166348

 

[oreofestar]

Volcarona to A

Volcarona is just so deadly, it just runs through a lot of teams, especially if they arent running Terak or like scarf Nihilego or Garchomp. Even without a boost Inferno Overdrive just completely nukes things. And it'll only get better if Duggy is gone. So many mons are set up fodder and a lot of mons that should be able to deal with it take a crap ton from Inferno Overdrive and cant keep switching in. It obviously punishes teams reliant on Scarf Lele to revenge kill (which you shouldn't be with all the 100+ boosters/scarfers). I'd say it is about as good as Zard X and that's in A right now. It has the same problems it's always had mainly rocks...but it is a little easier this gen to keep rocks off.