Sludge Wave

[Spenstar]

Sludge Wave

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Category: Special
Base Power: 95
Accuracy: 100
PP: 10
Flavor: It attacks those near it with a wave of sludge. It will sometimes cause poisoning.
Additional Effect: 10% chance to Poison foe
Additional Data: TM#34

Sludge Wave, the newest Special Poison move, essentially acting like a Poison Typed Ice Beam in terms of BP, chance to activate its secondary effect, accuracy, and PP. One thing that strikes me as odd (and even insane) is that while this move is a TM and is basically a superior version of Sludge Bomb in almost every way, (at least in singles) Sludge Bomb remains TM #36 this generation and is completely unchanged from Gen IV.

I ask you, and Gamefreak, what's the point? What's the point of making a move so similar to an existing one, even superior, while leaving the old one unchanged, AND making them both TMs within 2 numbers apart? They may have their minor differences, but that's just crazy! That's like keeping Flamethrower as TM #35 but making the new move Cross Fire TM #36. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK! That concludes my rant...

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Sludge bomb has a 30% poison rate.

 

[Spenstar]

so one has a 30% poison rate and one has a 10% poison rate? That's a REALLY small difference, especially when you consider that Posion stops burn, it's not toxic poison, and the power difference is minimal, it could even be better to have the lower poison rate.

 

[iruchii]

Sludge Wave hits all Pokémon on the field in doubles.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

I know, but it's not COMPLETELY outclassed, not by strict definition.

 

[Towelie]

its basically the same as lava plume vs. flamethrower or boiling water vs surf or discharge vs. t bolt. secondary chance occurs a little more often, but power is reduced.

 

[Airfoil]

As you said, it outclasses Sludge Bomb IN SINGLES. In doubles and triples, this attack can potentially ruin one of it's partners. B/W are really promoting other forms of competitive battling besides singles (most can hardly remember there is another form of battling), in case you haven't noticed from the 4 or so new kinds of battles adding to the 3 old kinds (Singles, Doubles, and Mix).

 

[Spenstar]

Sludge Wave hits all Pokémon on the field in doubles.

Oh, okay. I still don't get how that one difference is big enough to justify them both being TMs, and so close together though.

I know, but it's not COMPLETELY outclassed, not by strict definition.

Technically you're right. I'll edit the OP. Would it be fair to call Sludge Bomb ALMOST completely outclassed instead?

 

[Squid Ninja]

so one has a 30% poison rate and one has a 10% poison rate? That's a REALLY small difference, especially when you consider that Posion stops burn, it's not toxic poison, and the power difference is minimal, it could even be better to have the lower poison rate.

It's very different. Even with T-Wave and Wisp, some Pokemon still carry Discharge and Lava Plume because of the extra Paralyze and Burn chance.

Anyway, this is an interesting move, but Poison is a horrible offensive typing. I guess NP Toxicroak is happy.

 

[Nokocchi]

IIRC far fewer Pokemon learn the Sludge Wave TM than the Sludge Bomb TM.

 

[rkatzam]

30% is completely different from 10%.. and personally I'd rather use Sludge Bomb for the extra chance of poisioning, but it depends on the team and whatnot. Plus, as mentioned, Sludge Wave works for doubles as well. So all in all, these moves are quite different.

 

[Spenstar]

its basically the same as lava plume vs. flamethrower or boiling water vs surf or discharge vs. t bolt. secondary chance occurs a little more often, but power is reduced.

That's debatable... I see the resemblance, but there are a few major differences:

1. None of the pairs of moves you mentioned are BOTH TMs (technically surf is an HM so yeah, and even then they have some distance)
2. Regular poison, the status in question here, is the least useful one for the foe to have. It activates guts, quick feet, marvel scale, and poison heal, it doesn't reduce any stats, it's not Toxic poison that kills stall, it has the same damage output as burn but doesn't lower Attack, and a poisoned foe cannot be paralyzed, burned, or put to sleep.
3. The power difference here is much less, making these moves that much more similar.

As you said, it outclasses Sludge Bomb IN SINGLES. In doubles and triples, this attack can potentially ruin one of it's partners. B/W are really promoting other forms of competitive battling besides singles (most can hardly remember there is another form of battling), in case you haven't noticed from the 4 or so new kinds of battles adding to the 3 old kinds (Singles, Doubles, and Mix).

That is very true, but if you look at it that way, SB is the superior move. It targets only one foe, doesn't hurt teammates, power isn't nerfed, and the power difference is minimal. (5 BP difference) So if that's true, why'd SW make the TM list, and so close to its "better" cousin at that?

It's very different. Even with T-Wave and Wisp, some Pokemon still carry Discharge and Lava Plume because of the extra Paralyze and Burn chance.

Paralyze lowers speed and causes hax. Burn lowers attack. Poison doesn't do either of these.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Because game freak is made up of trolls. For example, there is a new move that kos yourself and does the remainder of hp in direct damage to the opponent. One pokemon that gets this move is shedinja. If that isn't a troll, I don't know what is.

 

[Spenstar]

Because game freak is made up of trolls. For example, there is a new move that kos yourself and does the remainder of hp in direct damage to the opponent. One pokemon that gets this move is shedinja. If that isn't a troll, I don't know what is.

True. But while casual players won't care so much about that move on Shedinja, any player can look at the SB and SW TMs RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER and wonder why.

 

[AstralFire]

I think you're really placing way too much emphasis on the importance of TM numbering, and continuing to really underestimate just how much Game Freak is pushing the alternate methods of battling.

Think about it: Every single generation does something to revolutionize the metagame, even in old Pokemon.

Generation II introduced the Special Split, which dramatically weakened (Gyarados, Exeggutor) or improved (almost anything with a low Special stat) like half of the RBY pokemon. It also introduced Egg Moves, hold items, and two new types, and weather conditions.

Generation III introduced abilities and Double Battles. Two games were devoted towards playing solely in Double Battle mode, no less. It also brought in natures, a cap on overall Stat Exp (which is now referred to as Effort Values), both of which leading to a much faster metagame after Generation II's extremely stall-heavy game.

Generation IV introduced the Physical/Special Split and brought in a new level in move-type diversity by greatly expanding the TM and Tutor lists, while adding a large amount of new and useful hold items - very large, this is the first generation where enforcing the Item Clause for 6v6 has even been seriously considered. Stealth Rock came about, becoming the first easy set-up entry hazard.

Generation V, however... has done very little to the old Pokemon in Singles, largely. No massive redefinitions of anything, the overwhelming majority of the TMs and HMs remain identical, few tutors. There's Dream World, but we don't know the details on that, and I'm tempted to think that Dream World is mostly meant to give your pokemon cool new abilities for fun and not be a serious competitive source - you can't breed with it, most likely, and we have no idea of real availability. And most old Pokemon don't actually change that much with their Dream World abilities, especially since those remain optional and not mandatory.

I'm pretty sure that's because Game Freak is putting that effort into developing Doubles and Triples - to my understanding, Doubles are a lot more popular in Japan than they are here, too.

 

[Morm]

in some instances I would almost prefer this to sludge bomb. On a stall team, for example, it'd be better to have a higher chance for poisoning than not, I suppose.

 

[Scoopapa]

It's only 5 BP stronger than Sludge Bomb. The lower 60% of Sludge Wave's damage range overlaps the upper end of Sludge Bomb's. Even at the most, it is 5.5% stronger. The damage from a potential Poisoning is going to have a much bigger effect on how much damage you cause an opponent. The difference between 10% and 30% is not small - they are different by a factor of 3. 90 and 95 are different by a factor of .55. Unless there is a particular 2HKO that Sludge Wave gets, or I'm relying on a different status, I'll choose Sludge Bomb every time.

 

[Pancham]

As you said, it outclasses Sludge Bomb IN SINGLES. In doubles and triples, this attack can potentially ruin one of it's partners.

RUin, or protect? In 2v2, or 3v3 even, your pokemon would rather take 12% each turn with no drawbacks rather than 12% each turn with your Attack stat halved. This will also protect your pokemon from Toxic. So I ask you again, ruin, or protect?

 

[revdjweb]

Because game freak is made up of trolls. For example, there is a new move that kos yourself and does the remainder of hp in direct damage to the opponent. One pokemon that gets this move is shedinja. If that isn't a troll, I don't know what is.

shedinja can also learn sandstorm

 

[Max_LKC]

Generation V, however... has done very little to the old Pokemon in Singles, largely. No massive redefinitions of anything, the overwhelming majority of the TMs and HMs remain identical, few tutors. There's Dream World, but we don't know the details on that, and I'm tempted to think that Dream World is mostly meant to give your pokemon cool new abilities for fun and not be a serious competitive source - you can't breed with it, most likely, and we have no idea of real availability. And most old Pokemon don't actually change that much with their Dream World abilities, especially since those remain optional and not mandatory.

Keep in mind that Diamond and Pearl only has elemental hyper beam tutors only and only after the release of platinum the number of tutored move increase and the number of moves a poke can learn also increases(eg. scizor only learns bullet punch in platinum). And because there is dive as a HM in this gen, a remake of RSE would be highly possible because just like HGSS they would copy the entire TMs and HMs list. So, I just want to say that there WILL be lots of new stuff coming in, it's still way too early to judge.

 

[Boomguy]

Hmm this won't be used much in doubles or tripples

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

Hmm this won't be used much in doubles or tripples

How do you figure? You just need a team of mostly Poison and Steel-types. Maybe a Poison Heal Gliscor in there somewhere.

I will concede that the 10% is very small.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Chance of poisoning does far more than 5 BP. In singles, Sludge Bomb is by far the superior choice.

 

[Grammarian]

It's a shame that neither Sludge Bomb nor Sludge Wave cause Toxic instead of the weak Poison damage. Compared to the usefulness of the Burn effect from Lava Plume and Boiling Water, and the Paralysis effect from Discharge, Poison (not Toxic) is arguably the least useful status effect to give to an opposing Pokemon.

 

[giggity69]

Because game freak is made up of trolls. For example, there is a new move that kos yourself and does the remainder of hp in direct damage to the opponent. One pokemon that gets this move is shedinja. If that isn't a troll, I don't know what is.

Just like wobbs learning encore + splash. Lock you into a support move and then splash you in the face a few times before switching out. Now you are soaking wet, pissed, AND getting set up on... thats troll.