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Announcement Sleep Clause in RBY Companion Thread
- Thread starter emma
- Start date
Idk where else to post this since I have no badges but I was reading the PR Thread on Sleep Clause, saying Sleep Clause Mod can't be achieved on cart and should be removed for rby...
What is preventing cart players from simply both using items like Awakening the turn after a mon is (incorrectly) put to sleep? Using items in general seems like a very easy way to bypass any sim to cart issues. It even works if the sleep inducing mon is faster. It would go like this:
Player A, Turn 1 - uses sing while something is already asleep
Player B, Turn 1 - pokemon goes to sleep
Player A, Turn 2 - uses Poke Flute (nothing happens) (if a pokemon on player a's team is asleep, use another item that would do nothing such as a pokeball)
Player B, Turn 2 - uses Awakening
Player A, Turn 3 - stall again like turn 2
Player B, Turn 3 - use the move they were going to use turn 1
Turn 4 - continue as if nothing happened
Sure it's cumbersome, but it's definitely possible to do, and means Classic Sleep Clause is definitely achievable on cart in the same way using percentages is achievable.
If anyone is looking to stir the pot feel free to repost to the PR thread. I think all the hubbub around sleep is pretty silly. Notable that this also works for freeze clause with Ice Heal
What is preventing cart players from simply both using items like Awakening the turn after a mon is (incorrectly) put to sleep? Using items in general seems like a very easy way to bypass any sim to cart issues. It even works if the sleep inducing mon is faster. It would go like this:
Player A, Turn 1 - uses sing while something is already asleep
Player B, Turn 1 - pokemon goes to sleep
Player A, Turn 2 - uses Poke Flute (nothing happens) (if a pokemon on player a's team is asleep, use another item that would do nothing such as a pokeball)
Player B, Turn 2 - uses Awakening
Player A, Turn 3 - stall again like turn 2
Player B, Turn 3 - use the move they were going to use turn 1
Turn 4 - continue as if nothing happened
Sure it's cumbersome, but it's definitely possible to do, and means Classic Sleep Clause is definitely achievable on cart in the same way using percentages is achievable.
If anyone is looking to stir the pot feel free to repost to the PR thread. I think all the hubbub around sleep is pretty silly. Notable that this also works for freeze clause with Ice Heal
well... i see
I'm just gonna throw my post out here since I have opinions too!
1 Please stop talking about freeze clause the likelihood of that changing or getting removed is close to zero and all it's doing is getting in the way of the actual discussion at hand. Even I can see that policy wise these two clauses don't have much in common.
2 Please stop arguing that we need to go all or nothing with cart accuracy this is another dead-end argument that prevents actual discussion of the matter at hand and doesn't have a toe to stand on let alone a leg. For a truly ridiculous example that is completely within line why don't we have a paralysis clause or a poison clause? Well the answer is really simple the difference in strength between these statuses and sleep/freeze is large and when these clauses were created they were not deemed anywhere near strong enough to require a nerf. I understand the push for more cartridge accurate mechanics but like I said before this thread is for sleep and we need to focus on sleep if we want a change.
3 I really don't like the idea of changing sleep clause like this, I personally don't care a whole lot about cartridge accuracy (although I sympathize with those who do) and the idea of me auto losing to clicking a sleep move twice is a harsh pill to swallow. Misclickes happen and they can already be punishing enough so if this were to be added a second prompt asking "are you sure" or something would be necessary. But even past that this creates a couple of situations where it feels more like luck weather or not you auto lose. Imagine a situation where two paralyzed chansey are going at it and yours has sing and the other doesn't, furthermore you have enough pp to stall them out first but you will have to click sing a bunch of times to preserve your better moves. it's obvious they know their chansey cannot win barring insane para luck and they want to send in their snorlax and force you out to regain some ground. Now your faced with a luck-based situation where you have no choice but to click sing every so often and hope snorlax does not switch in when you do, and even if snorlax switches in on sing you aren't guaranteed to auto lose it's just a chance. Playing the odds is a huge part of competitive pokemon but this is a complete lottery with no skill involved. Something I like about pokemon is the ability to play myself back into a game that looked hopeless, but this threatens to end the game on the spot because you were unlucky.
4 Ban sleep. In theory this should satisfy the majority of players, the competitive players get a more balanced game and the cartridge purists get a more accurate sleep clause. This would be quite a move to make but there is recent precedent with bw and sv banning sleep. I know some people will disagree and there is a genuine argument that banning sleep is not within the scope of this thread but this is another one of those "seize the opportunity while you have it" moments.
4.5 Some players might say that banning sleep is a bad choice because even if sleep is a luck-based mechanic there is still skill in using it. If anyone out there wants to explain to me how sleep adds more skill to the game than no sleep despite being so inherently lucky than go for it I would love to hear it. I'm truly being serious I've seen so many people stick up for sleep and yet I've never seen a good argument as to why it's a good mechanic.
5 Conclusion. Even if I disagree about changing the sleep clause I think there should be an attempt for some action. Even if only an unofficial poll that has no bearing on tiering something should happen because right now all I see is mostly pointless conversation on subjects that weren't even the original point of the post. If action isn't taken people will continue to complain about how nothing ever changes and how this wasn't even giving a fair chance. I don't agree with this proposal but if the community wants cartridge accuracy then it's their right and if it turns out the majority doesn't want any kind of change than that's cool as well but if something doesn't happen then it's only a matter of time until another attempt to improve cart accuracy shows up nothing happens and thus continues the vicious cycle. At least if we put this to some kind of vote and nothing changes (which will probably happen) we can look back and say, "at least we tried".
1 Please stop talking about freeze clause the likelihood of that changing or getting removed is close to zero and all it's doing is getting in the way of the actual discussion at hand. Even I can see that policy wise these two clauses don't have much in common.
2 Please stop arguing that we need to go all or nothing with cart accuracy this is another dead-end argument that prevents actual discussion of the matter at hand and doesn't have a toe to stand on let alone a leg. For a truly ridiculous example that is completely within line why don't we have a paralysis clause or a poison clause? Well the answer is really simple the difference in strength between these statuses and sleep/freeze is large and when these clauses were created they were not deemed anywhere near strong enough to require a nerf. I understand the push for more cartridge accurate mechanics but like I said before this thread is for sleep and we need to focus on sleep if we want a change.
3 I really don't like the idea of changing sleep clause like this, I personally don't care a whole lot about cartridge accuracy (although I sympathize with those who do) and the idea of me auto losing to clicking a sleep move twice is a harsh pill to swallow. Misclickes happen and they can already be punishing enough so if this were to be added a second prompt asking "are you sure" or something would be necessary. But even past that this creates a couple of situations where it feels more like luck weather or not you auto lose. Imagine a situation where two paralyzed chansey are going at it and yours has sing and the other doesn't, furthermore you have enough pp to stall them out first but you will have to click sing a bunch of times to preserve your better moves. it's obvious they know their chansey cannot win barring insane para luck and they want to send in their snorlax and force you out to regain some ground. Now your faced with a luck-based situation where you have no choice but to click sing every so often and hope snorlax does not switch in when you do, and even if snorlax switches in on sing you aren't guaranteed to auto lose it's just a chance. Playing the odds is a huge part of competitive pokemon but this is a complete lottery with no skill involved. Something I like about pokemon is the ability to play myself back into a game that looked hopeless, but this threatens to end the game on the spot because you were unlucky.
4 Ban sleep. In theory this should satisfy the majority of players, the competitive players get a more balanced game and the cartridge purists get a more accurate sleep clause. This would be quite a move to make but there is recent precedent with bw and sv banning sleep. I know some people will disagree and there is a genuine argument that banning sleep is not within the scope of this thread but this is another one of those "seize the opportunity while you have it" moments.
4.5 Some players might say that banning sleep is a bad choice because even if sleep is a luck-based mechanic there is still skill in using it. If anyone out there wants to explain to me how sleep adds more skill to the game than no sleep despite being so inherently lucky than go for it I would love to hear it. I'm truly being serious I've seen so many people stick up for sleep and yet I've never seen a good argument as to why it's a good mechanic.
5 Conclusion. Even if I disagree about changing the sleep clause I think there should be an attempt for some action. Even if only an unofficial poll that has no bearing on tiering something should happen because right now all I see is mostly pointless conversation on subjects that weren't even the original point of the post. If action isn't taken people will continue to complain about how nothing ever changes and how this wasn't even giving a fair chance. I don't agree with this proposal but if the community wants cartridge accuracy then it's their right and if it turns out the majority doesn't want any kind of change than that's cool as well but if something doesn't happen then it's only a matter of time until another attempt to improve cart accuracy shows up nothing happens and thus continues the vicious cycle. At least if we put this to some kind of vote and nothing changes (which will probably happen) we can look back and say, "at least we tried".
I've seen this exact response nearly word for word plenty of times if your gonna bother responding actually respond don't just say "players say this" yes I know they say that why not tell me why they say that. Also do you actually want progress on this topic because you were the first one to respond even though your response was really really pointless. I know you like to push for cart accuracy but you also like to push others patience.
Now that's actually a fair post but I kinda disagree because sleep is so dominating and luck based that I feel like having more unique lines at the beginning of the match doesn't matter as much as not getting plowed by starmie having a one turn wake near the end of the match. I get the point but that's just not enough to say sleep is worth keeping around when it creates hax city.
IMO Sleep is extremely crucial to making progress in RBY. That's why banning Sleep is not really on the table.
I am not the most avid RBY player, so correct me if I am wrong players of RBY, but to my understanding a key part of making progress in the tier is getting the right status onto any Pokemon, but more importantly, the right Pokemon.