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SINNOH CLASSIC
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
Zapdos, huh? I'm not much of a Zapdos expert unless its RSE Baton Passing, tbh...
Tailwind is such a big speed boost, that I'd personally run either more bulk with less speed, or even a Modest/Bold/Calm Nature.
Joke set I came up with to laugh at Smeargle teams:
Girafarig @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 92 HP / 236 Atk / 180 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Double Kick
-Protect
-Reflect
-Thunder Wave
The ultimate Smeargle troll: 37.5% chance to OHKO Smeargle which works well with my Choice Scarf Weavile. Scarf Weavile also outspeeds Swift Swim Ludicolo which allows Girafarig to Thunder Wave it. Also takes care of opposing Weaviles. I decided on Girafarig because it was the only Pokémon (besides Sawk) that got both Inner Focus and Double Kick.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/sinnohclassic-394561680
(Note: only half joking)
Girafarig @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 92 HP / 236 Atk / 180 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Double Kick
-Protect
-Reflect
-Thunder Wave
The ultimate Smeargle troll: 37.5% chance to OHKO Smeargle which works well with my Choice Scarf Weavile. Scarf Weavile also outspeeds Swift Swim Ludicolo which allows Girafarig to Thunder Wave it. Also takes care of opposing Weaviles. I decided on Girafarig because it was the only Pokémon (besides Sawk) that got both Inner Focus and Double Kick.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/sinnohclassic-394561680
(Note: only half joking)
I ran a Bold one with Tailwind/Roost in VGC '15, but I can't imagine it's all that relevant in this format. There was a lot more Rockslide going around, and its speed tier looked a lot worse. You probably are better off using a faster Zapdos to help it get Tailwind off in more situations.
I'm currently looking at Scarf Zapdos for this and trying to find its ideal speed. The spread I have right now outspeeds slower Ludicolo in the rain, but I may end up being pushed toward full speed Modest depending on what else comes up during testing (I've already upped it due to some other random Scarf 'mons). It just has such nice defenses it's a shame to waste them.
Not a lot of discussion on this one. The thread at Nugget Bridge is also surprisingly dead, though maybe that's understandable with U.S. nats.
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I would just use the standard Battle Spot Doubles analysis spread, outspeeding max Smeargle is good. Otherwise you can drop to 140 Spe to get the jump on SS Kingdra, or 20 Spe for Ludicolo.
Our Online Comp discussion threads are always the best :^)
236 Atk Life Orb Girafarig Double Kick (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Smeargle: 146-172 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Girafarig Double Kick (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Smeargle: 140-166 (86.4 - 102.4%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Girafarig Double Kick (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Smeargle: 88-110 (67.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Investing in Smeargle's HP is only good on Transform Smeargle. All the other Smeargle should invest in Defense first because it helps alot more against random techs like yours and primarily against priority moves like Fake Out and Feint and spread moves like Rock Slide and Earthquake.
I have been running Smeargle in this format since I've started playing it and I can tell you that 252 HP is a subpar spread for Smeargle. Everybody who runs it deserves to lose to Double Kick Girafarig... lol
I haven't actually used Zapdos in SC, but I'd imagine that outspeeding Smeargle would be an important benchmark.
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NB in general is pretty dead
Looking back, I think I overestimated Double Kick as a move. I normally have my Scarf Weavile (no, really, it's good vs. Rain) use Feint anyway which kind of defeats the purpose of using Girafarig in the first place. I have a 5IV EV-trained one so there's that. Lol
You might be thinking that Scarf Weavile is a bad idea, but I paired mine up with a Trick Porygon-Z. It outspeeds Ludicolo turn 1, then gets the Sash from pz, allowing it to freely select moves; pz, on the other hand, appreciates the Scarf.
I'm looking forward to this one after playing the Kanto and Johto classics. I can't decide though if I want to go all Sinnoh team in the spirit of competition, a weather team, a team of my favorites, or a combination of all the above.
I've managed to get into the top ten on PS with an alt, but practice is getting a little thin there, so I'll throw this out to the community:
Belly Drum Snorlax or Assault Vest Snorlax? The former messes Trick Room teams up, but in most situations the survivability of the latter seems more useful. Or just Chesto Resto to get a few more turns and shrug off burns? The only issue I see with that is successfully predicting when to use Rest when moving last outside of Trick Room.
Belly Drum Snorlax or Assault Vest Snorlax? The former messes Trick Room teams up, but in most situations the survivability of the latter seems more useful. Or just Chesto Resto to get a few more turns and shrug off burns? The only issue I see with that is successfully predicting when to use Rest when moving last outside of Trick Room.
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A few of us are working on Viability Rankings right now, but the metagame is still a little too fresh to have them really accurate.
As for usage stats, I'll probably pester Antar about it next week.
So I got #1 on the ladder. Not the biggest accomplishment and I don't expect it to last, but I might as well save the image :P
Anyways, just some more concrete impressions of the metagame here!
-Weavile is really fantastic in this metagame! It's the fastest user of Fake Out besides rain Ludicolo, it makes great use of sash, and it kicks the hell out of Latios and offensive Zapdos.
-Speaking of Zapdos, that seems to be the defacto Tailwinder of the format. It's pretty good, though I'm interested in that Scarf set Whiskey Tango has tried too, since Zapdos has a damn good offensive movepool.
-Yeah, weather is still around. Rain cratered for a bit but I've started seeing a lot of them again. I was really weak to it so I started running Abomasnow, who has actually been rather competent too since Blizzard hurts like hell. I've been using Life Orb, but I've heard of people running Scarf Abomasnow as well. Sun is also a lot more common than I was expecting! I haven't really seen people use it with Venusaur though, I usually see it with Arcanine and Zapdos.
-Garchomp is pretty good, but with all the Weavile running around, it certainly isn't as common as I expected. I personally find Yache Garchomp to be pretty good, but Weavile, Cresselia, and Scarf Abomasnow are pretty problematic. I've also started to see quite a few Choice Scarf Garchomp, who can be really annoying because of stuff like Rock Slide flinching Weavile x_x.
-I started testing Choice Scarf Final Gambit Staraptor today, and damn it seems pretty dangerous! It doesn't seem like there are many safe switch-ins to it, and the Intimidate support comes in handy. Even with only 4 Atk EVs, Brave Bird does good damage. This really makes me want to try out a Reckless variant as well considering how much uninvested Brave Bird has been doing!
-Swords Dance Scizor is pretty great in this metagame considering all the Cresselia and Weavile running about, and its especially nasty on rain to deal with random HP Fires. Speaking of that, I've seen Cresselia started running HP Fire, probably to take on Scizor. This is especially handy if you use Cresselia on the sun!
-I actually barely see any Rotom-W or Rotom-H. Maybe the metagame is mostly too fast paced for them? I still wanna give them a try later though, especially Trick for Cresselia.
-I saw this team that was using Reflect Raikou + Curse Snorlax, and damn it was pretty nasty! Snorlax is extremely difficult to take out under Reflect when you don't have a Fighting-type!
-I also saw a few teams with Azumarill + Follow Me Magmar. It seemed to work surprisingly well, especially since I was overly relying on Zapdos to handle Azumarill. Some people have told me that they're considering this combo with Electabuzz as well. Not sure which one is better yet, but I'm interested in trying this strat for sure.
-Maybe its just me, but I've seen a downturn in those Moody teams running around.
-The three most common Intimidators I've seen are Hitmontop, Arcanine, and Gyarados. All of them seem to be pretty good, so I'd watch out for them!
Anyways, just some more concrete impressions of the metagame here!
-Weavile is really fantastic in this metagame! It's the fastest user of Fake Out besides rain Ludicolo, it makes great use of sash, and it kicks the hell out of Latios and offensive Zapdos.
-Speaking of Zapdos, that seems to be the defacto Tailwinder of the format. It's pretty good, though I'm interested in that Scarf set Whiskey Tango has tried too, since Zapdos has a damn good offensive movepool.
-Yeah, weather is still around. Rain cratered for a bit but I've started seeing a lot of them again. I was really weak to it so I started running Abomasnow, who has actually been rather competent too since Blizzard hurts like hell. I've been using Life Orb, but I've heard of people running Scarf Abomasnow as well. Sun is also a lot more common than I was expecting! I haven't really seen people use it with Venusaur though, I usually see it with Arcanine and Zapdos.
-Garchomp is pretty good, but with all the Weavile running around, it certainly isn't as common as I expected. I personally find Yache Garchomp to be pretty good, but Weavile, Cresselia, and Scarf Abomasnow are pretty problematic. I've also started to see quite a few Choice Scarf Garchomp, who can be really annoying because of stuff like Rock Slide flinching Weavile x_x.
-I started testing Choice Scarf Final Gambit Staraptor today, and damn it seems pretty dangerous! It doesn't seem like there are many safe switch-ins to it, and the Intimidate support comes in handy. Even with only 4 Atk EVs, Brave Bird does good damage. This really makes me want to try out a Reckless variant as well considering how much uninvested Brave Bird has been doing!
-Swords Dance Scizor is pretty great in this metagame considering all the Cresselia and Weavile running about, and its especially nasty on rain to deal with random HP Fires. Speaking of that, I've seen Cresselia started running HP Fire, probably to take on Scizor. This is especially handy if you use Cresselia on the sun!
-I actually barely see any Rotom-W or Rotom-H. Maybe the metagame is mostly too fast paced for them? I still wanna give them a try later though, especially Trick for Cresselia.
-I saw this team that was using Reflect Raikou + Curse Snorlax, and damn it was pretty nasty! Snorlax is extremely difficult to take out under Reflect when you don't have a Fighting-type!
-I also saw a few teams with Azumarill + Follow Me Magmar. It seemed to work surprisingly well, especially since I was overly relying on Zapdos to handle Azumarill. Some people have told me that they're considering this combo with Electabuzz as well. Not sure which one is better yet, but I'm interested in trying this strat for sure.
-Maybe its just me, but I've seen a downturn in those Moody teams running around.
-The three most common Intimidators I've seen are Hitmontop, Arcanine, and Gyarados. All of them seem to be pretty good, so I'd watch out for them!
So I'm having trouble coming up with a decent team for this (honestly, there's not been a metagame I've sucked at more...). I don't want to resort to Moody/Entrainement/Dark Void shenanigans (indeed, I hate Smeargle, and would never stoop so low in my own eyes as to use it), but am having trouble coming up with anything better.
I tried Rain, to some success, but, as Theorymon says above, I don't think it's as strong as people think.
The only think I've had any success with using is Quash/Fake Out Sableye allowing Garchomp to set up/attack, depending on the situation. Ideally, I'd like to form a core around these two (as I've been meaning to breed a 'chomp for a while), as well as an Infernape, mostly because I managed to breed a flawless Naive Chimchar (though annoyingly without Fake Out), but also because it's one of my favourite 'mons.
Any thoughts of what to add to a team of Sableye / Garchomp / Infernape?
I tried Rain, to some success, but, as Theorymon says above, I don't think it's as strong as people think.
The only think I've had any success with using is Quash/Fake Out Sableye allowing Garchomp to set up/attack, depending on the situation. Ideally, I'd like to form a core around these two (as I've been meaning to breed a 'chomp for a while), as well as an Infernape, mostly because I managed to breed a flawless Naive Chimchar (though annoyingly without Fake Out), but also because it's one of my favourite 'mons.
Any thoughts of what to add to a team of Sableye / Garchomp / Infernape?
You need something that handles fairies. Clefable, Gardevoir, Togekiss and Azumarill all look like very big threats to your core. A Steel-type would probably be the easiest solution.
PS: Fake Out is important for Infernape.
Latios for me has been really underwhelming. I expected more Garchomps and Salamences, but I guess hail teams have knocked most of them out. It seems like the only relevant poison types have been venusaur and gengar, which makes poison coverage even worse.
I'm thinking infernape could be really good. Weavile can't hurt it and Latios is pretty rare, making it one of the faster things around. Fire/Fighting coverage takes out a lot of threats too. Having a fast fakeout really helps.
Raikou is actually an interesting pokemon. Given the number of rain/hail teams, using aura sphere + weather ball could be a really solid combo. Of course, those are only available from gen 4 event, so good luck getting one (I may have never bothered to get mine in Soul Silver, but I don't want to learn to rng again).
I'm thinking infernape could be really good. Weavile can't hurt it and Latios is pretty rare, making it one of the faster things around. Fire/Fighting coverage takes out a lot of threats too. Having a fast fakeout really helps.
Raikou is actually an interesting pokemon. Given the number of rain/hail teams, using aura sphere + weather ball could be a really solid combo. Of course, those are only available from gen 4 event, so good luck getting one (I may have never bothered to get mine in Soul Silver, but I don't want to learn to rng again).
This meta changes fast. I was comfortably staying >1400 and in the top ten the other day, and now the team constantly loses and feels radically unprepared. If I do wind up playing and continuing to test, Lapras would be the next thing I'd look at.
I've been delaying building a team because there are so many mons allowed, but enough banned so that normal battle spot doubles meta doesn't fit.
So yesterday I tested out Trick Room + Hail for a few hours. As expected, its pretty good! Abomasnow is actually rather terrifying under Trick Room, and it isn't easy to take out without a Fire-type move. Some other things to note from this experience. For reference, the team was Cresselia / Abomasnow / Snorlax / Scizor / Hitmontop / Arcanine
-Snorlax is pretty damn fantastic under TR. Its bulky, powerful, and can use Curse to make it even HARDER to take down! I also tried Belly Drum for a bit. I wasn't actually a big fan of Belly Drum because Curse saved me more, but I can't deny that if two TR teams were to face each other, Bellydrum lax might come out on top.
-I was using Scizor on it because I was pretty worried about CM Cresselia, since the only other mon I have that can sorta handle it is Snorlax. Not sure if TR teams can get away without Sizor as their Cresselia check, but any of yall got any interesting ideas here?
-Smeargle wasn't quite as nasty as I thought it'd be, since Feint from Hitmontop was pretty damn helpful (plus it has Lum Berry lol). That being said, I'm tempted to try and fit Wide Guard on Hitmontop somewhere. Giving up Mach Punch or Feint would be sad and make me more vulnerable to Smeargle (Wide Guard does NOT block Dark Void). Reason being is that I heard of people using Hitmontop + Abomasnow to screw up Zapdos by using Wide Guard, which interests me quite a bit!
-Arcanine may seem pretty weird on a TR team, but its been extremely helpful. I've been using it to deal with Scizor and opposing Abomasnow while giving myself a back up Intimidate. It's also works nicely in and out of TR thanks to ExtremeSpeed. I may try Camerupt later however, since that thing sounds perfect for TR. Only thing is that I'd really miss ExtremeSpeed, which has gotten me outta some serious jams before!
-BTW curious, have any of you tried Trick Roomers that aren't Cresselia? I was thinking about trying Bronzong or Dusclops later as well. Dusclops is neat for not getting pounded by Scizor and being able to burn stuff, but I haven't really thought about anything else otherwise.
-Snorlax is pretty damn fantastic under TR. Its bulky, powerful, and can use Curse to make it even HARDER to take down! I also tried Belly Drum for a bit. I wasn't actually a big fan of Belly Drum because Curse saved me more, but I can't deny that if two TR teams were to face each other, Bellydrum lax might come out on top.
-I was using Scizor on it because I was pretty worried about CM Cresselia, since the only other mon I have that can sorta handle it is Snorlax. Not sure if TR teams can get away without Sizor as their Cresselia check, but any of yall got any interesting ideas here?
-Smeargle wasn't quite as nasty as I thought it'd be, since Feint from Hitmontop was pretty damn helpful (plus it has Lum Berry lol). That being said, I'm tempted to try and fit Wide Guard on Hitmontop somewhere. Giving up Mach Punch or Feint would be sad and make me more vulnerable to Smeargle (Wide Guard does NOT block Dark Void). Reason being is that I heard of people using Hitmontop + Abomasnow to screw up Zapdos by using Wide Guard, which interests me quite a bit!
-Arcanine may seem pretty weird on a TR team, but its been extremely helpful. I've been using it to deal with Scizor and opposing Abomasnow while giving myself a back up Intimidate. It's also works nicely in and out of TR thanks to ExtremeSpeed. I may try Camerupt later however, since that thing sounds perfect for TR. Only thing is that I'd really miss ExtremeSpeed, which has gotten me outta some serious jams before!
-BTW curious, have any of you tried Trick Roomers that aren't Cresselia? I was thinking about trying Bronzong or Dusclops later as well. Dusclops is neat for not getting pounded by Scizor and being able to burn stuff, but I haven't really thought about anything else otherwise.
Yee-haw, my home turf! It doesn't matter that I only joined competitive battling in XY, these games were the ones I started out with! Woo!
Say, anyone got any suggestions for a buddy for Ludicolo? I'd really like to use a rain team + Cresselia, but I'm out of ideas.
Say, anyone got any suggestions for a buddy for Ludicolo? I'd really like to use a rain team + Cresselia, but I'm out of ideas.
I've been using Dusknoir to some success. It can use items other than eviolite to get the TR going. Thought about Gardevoir, as it looks like a more offensive, less physically bulky Cresselia with the same supporting options like helping hand and icy wind.
Besides the required politoed, electrics would be a good teammate. A lot of rain teams use zapdos, but other stuff like raikou would also work.