Shaymin [QC 2/3] (Written)

[Jellied Eels]

QC: dod / IB
GP:

Overview
########

Shaymin is one of the most threatening specially offensive Pokemon in the tier. Its STAB, signature attack Seed Flare sports a solid 40% chance to halve Special Defense, allowing it to potentially break through would-be checks or counters. Shaymin also also has solid stats across the board, with good bulk and access to an important speed tier. Its useful resistances to Ground and Water give it plenty of switchin opportunities against the numerous bulky Pokemons in the tier. However, Seed Flare's low PP and accuracy can be its downfall, and when it doesn't get lucky with Special Defense drop Shaymin's average base 100 Special Attack does not do it any favour.


Life Orb
########
name: Life Orb
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power / Dazzling Gleam
move 3: Psychic / Air Slash
move 4: Synthesis / Rest
ability: Natural Cure
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Shaymin's signature attack Seed Flare is a powerful STAB move that can allow Shaymin to break past would-be switchins like Florges or Umbreon with a little luck thanks to its amazing side-effect. Earth Power provides useful coverage on many types that resist Seed Flare; and in particular is Shaymin's strongest move against Jirachi, a common switchin. Alternatively, Dazzling Gleam can be used to surprise OHKO Hydreigon or the rare Noivern, but leaves Shaymin very susceptible to bulky Steel-types. While Air Slash hits all Grass-types super-effectively (and most notably Celebi), it has very low base power which makes Psychic the preferred option most of the times, as it provides coverage on Crobat as well as Roserade and Chesnaught. Synthesis heals Shaymin for 50% of its HP at will, although the low PP can be an issue. Rest may seem like a better option, as it heals Shaymin fully and pairs nicely with Natural Cure, but it relinquishes momentum, forcing you to hard switch out which is unfortunate on an offensive Pokemon. Healing Wish can be hard to fit on a set but provides fantastic utility, fully recovering another Pokemon once Shaymin has done its job.


Set Details
========

The listed spread is self-explanatory, it gives Shaymin as much Speed and power as possible. A Timid nature is needed to tie with other base 100 Pokemons and outspeed the likes of Darmanitan. Life Orb is required to help Shaymin wallbreak as it is rather weak without a boosting item, and the recoil can be offset thanks to its reliable recovery anyway.


Usage Tips
========

The many bulky Water- and Ground-types (such as Suicune, or Hippowdon) that populate the tier give Shaymin plenty of opportunities to switch in and wallbreak. Seed Flare's low PP and high miss chance can make it an easy move to exploit, so don't let the opponent play around it. However, be aware that going for the 40% chance of a Special Defense drop is often the best way to snowball past would-be checks like Celebi (which gets 2HKOed by Air Slash if it gets the Special Defense drop on the switch-in).


Team Options
========

Any Pokemon which appreciates the removal of bulky Water- and Ground-types makes a good offensive partner to Shaymin; in particular Darmanitan can bring in Shaymin safely with U-turn and Krookodile can Pursuit trap problematic Pokemons like Jirachi and to an extent Crobat. Life Orb Shaymin struggles to get past extremely specially bulky Pokemons like Blissey so it should be partnered with Pokemons which can either lure and beat them (such as Life Orb Mixed Infernape or Hydreigon) or set-up on them (such as Cresselia). In addition, Life Orb Shaymin makes really good use of entry hazards, as it can force a lot of switches with its great coverage and Seed Flare's secondary effect. Stealth Rock in particular hurts most of Shaymin's offensive checks, and Shaymin pairs well with the setters in the tier, most of which appreciate the removal of bulky waters.

Choice Specs
########
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Earth Power / Dazzling Gleam
move 3: Psychic / Air Slash
move 4: Healing Wish / Energy Ball
ability: Natural Cure
item: Choice Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Shaymin's main STAB attack Seed Flare becomes very scary with the power of Choice Specs backing it up, and decently bulky resists such as Hydreigon, Rotom-H or Mega Pidgeot fall into 2HKO range (Hydreigon only after Stealth Rock damage). Earth Power still hits most types that resist Grass super-effectively, but it is a much more risky move when you're locking yourself into it, as it can give away easy set-up opportunities. Dazzling Gleam still hits Hydreigon, Kyurem and Noivern. Air Slash hits Grass-types super-effectively, but Psychic OHKOes Crobat with Stealth Rock on the field, as well as cover both Roserade and Chesnaught, making it the superior option. Healing Wish is a fantastic support move that you actually have room for on a Choiced set, giving Choice Specs Shaymin the opportunity to fully heal another Pokemon once it has done its job. While Healing Wish is one of the main selling point of this set, Energy Ball is a safe, reliable STAB move with no PP issue that Shaymin can make good use of as well, should your team not require Healing Wish support.

Set Details
========

The listed spread is self-explanatory, it gives Shaymin as much Speed and power as possible. Although it might be tempting to run a Modest nature on a Choice Specs set, Shaymin outspeeding Pokemons like Hydreigon and Darmanitan is more important than the increase in damage output which still doesn't threaten the likes of Blissey or quite get the OHKO on Jirachi with Earth Power. Choice Specs Shaymin packs a hefty punch but is essentially locked out of its great coverage options, exacerbating Seed Flare's PP issue.


Usage Tips
========

Because of the lack of a recovery move, Choice Specs Shaymin can be worn down very quickly by Scald burns or simply switching into resisted moves. As a result, prediction is key when using this set especially if hazards are on your side of the field, as Shaymin only gets so many chances to come in and wallbreak. Shaymin's coverage moves, while useful, are also rather weak and easy to take advantage of, so they should be used with caution. Don't hesitate to make full use of Healing Wish, as Shaymin's decent bulk will only carry it so far anyway without recovery.


Team Options
========

Choice Specs Shaymin is best used on very offensive teams which appreciate its high damage output and can put to good use the utility of Healing Wish, and in return usually provide the entry hazards Shaymin requires to OHKO some Pokemons like Crobat or Entei. Threatening set-up sweepers which synergize well with Shaymin like Haxorus or Calm Mind Jirachi can do their own wallbreaking with Healing Wish support. Because Choice items lock you into a move, having a decent switchin to common Shaymin answers like Crobat is required should you predict wrong.


Leech Seed
########
name: Leech Seed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Psychic / Air Slash
move 4: Substitute / Protect
ability: Natural Cure
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Leech Seed allows Shaymin to wear down special walls such as Blissey and Florges while also keeping it healthy. Seed Flare is still a strong STAB move, adequately threatening once Shaymin is behind a Substitute, although it should be noted that the drop in power due to Leftovers is very noticeable. The choice between Air Slash and Psychic is complicated by the fact that, while Air Slash provides insurance against the Grass-types which are unaffected by Leech Seed, Crobat is an even more important target because it can hit through Substitute. Substitute can be used to ease predictions and protect Shaymin from status, while allowing Shaymin to stall out Pokemons with Leech Seed. Protect is a decent alternative which doesn't cut Shaymin's health. It should be noted that Earth Power can also be used as the coverage move of choice, as it is much more suited to deal with the offensive checks to this set (such as Fire-types and Jirachi).

Set Details
========

Leftovers is used to let Shaymin get enough residual healing alongside Leech Seed to be able to continuously make Substitutes as well as gain more survivability in general. The use of an offensive spread is required to keep the benefits of Shaymin's important Speed tier as well as to make up for its average base 100 Special Attack. Going for a more bulky spread is possible but not recommended, as it then lacks any offensive presence against offensive teams and 101 HP Substitutes are unneeded when only Blissey uses Seismic Toss in the tier anyway.

Usage Tips
========

Using Leech Seed as often as possible is key for this set, as keeping Shaymin healthy is a priority and it will wear down the opponent faster than choosing the wrong attacking move anyway. Once you have seeded a Pokemon, you can repeatedly use Substitute to wear it down without losing any health or wear it down more quickly with Seed Flare. Against more offensive team, using Substitute while forcing out a Pokemon can make Shaymin extremely hard to deal with as long as you can get a little Seed Flare luck.

Team Options
========

This particular Shaymin set forces a lot of switches and as a result works best with hazard support. Many Stealth Rock setters like Krookodile, Gligar or Mega Aerodactyl benefit in return from the removal of bulky waters. A special mention is given to Toxic Spikes as they add to the residual damage of Leech Seed. In particular, Nidoqueen has decent synergy with Shaymin and thrives when special walls are worn down.

Other Options
########

A Choice Scarf set with Healing Wish can be used, especially since Shaymin is faster that Hydreigon, but without a boosting item Shaymin isn't very strong and Seed Flare should not be used as a revenge-killing tool due to its bad accuracy. A physical set consisting of Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Return / Synthesis with Life Orb can be used to surprise Shaymin's traditional counters, as Blissey, Goodra, and Specially Defensive Celebi are all 2HKOed by +2 Return, but it is very match-up reliant and overall not as reliable as Shaymin's other sets. Shaymin has access to Tailwind, which it could run on a set as an alternative to Healing Wish. Hidden Power Fire can be a useful coverage option should you want a lure for Forretress and Escavalier. A defensive Aromathery set is an interesting option, and isn't outclassed by Celebi (as they share the same bulk but Shaymin isn't weak to Pursuit and U-turn) or Roserade (as Shaymin has actual defensive bulk).


Checks & Counters
########

**Dedicated Special Walls**: Blissey isn't phazed by any of Shaymin's attacking moves unless Shaymin gets two Special Defense drops, at which point it has a chance to be 2HKOed. However, it has to be wary of the Leech Seed set which can stall it out and must be played with caution around the Choice Specs set. Goodra is a special case as with its ability Sap Sipper it is immune to Seed Flare and Leech Seed and due to its great special bulk takes a pittance from Shaymin's coverage moves.

**Bulky Grass types**: Specially Defensive Roserade, Amoongus and Celebi take little damage from any of Shaymin's moves besides Choice Specs Air Slash. While Celebi can't really do anything back to Shaymin without setting up, both Roserade and Amoonguss threaten it directly with STAB Sludge Bomb.

**Bulky Steel-types**: Jirachi, while 2HKOed by Earth Power, makes a good switchin to the rest of Shaymin's moveset, shrugging off even Specs Seed Flare. Specially Defensive Forretress and Bronzong are either only 4HKOed or immune to Earth Power, Shaymin's only coverage on Steel-types besides the rare Hidden Power Fire, but have no recovery of their own and can only threaten back Synthesis Shaymin with the combination of Gyro Ball and Toxic, or simply by setting up hazards.

**Flying-types**: Faster Flying-types like Mega Pidgeot, Crobat and Noivern make good checks to Shaymin (although Crobat and Noivern cannot switch into Psychic and Dazzling Gleam respectively) as they can Roost off damage and force Shaymin out with their powerful STAB moves.

**Fire-types**: Most Fire-types either faster than Shaymin or unaffected by Earth Power, such as Infernape, Rotom-H, Choice Scarf Chandelure and Darmanitan, can switch into Shaymin with caution or simply revenge-kill it, but they will be worn down quickly by Stealth Rock.

Skelly

Overview
########

• One of the most threatening specially offensive mon in UU
• Seed Flare can allow it to break through checks or counters
• Solid stats across the board; good bulk and important speed tier
• Useful resistances to Ground and Water give it plenty of switchin opportunities vs the bulky mons in the tier
• Seed Flare's low PP and accuracy can be its downfall
• Kinda relies on a 40% chance + can be easily revenge-killed

Life Orb
########
name: Life Orb
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Psychic / Air Slash
move 3: Earth Power / Dazzling Gleam
move 4: Synthesis / Rest
ability: Natural Cure
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Seed Flare is a very spammable STAB move due to its amazing secondary effect of cutting the opponent's Special Defense in half
• Earth Power provides coverage on many types that resist Seed Flare; in particular strongest move vs Jirachi
  
• Dazzling Gleam can be used to OHKO Hydreigon but leaves Shaymin very susceptible to bulky Steel-types
• While Air Slash hits all Grass-types super-effectively (most notably Celebi), it has very low base power which makes Psychic the preferred option most of the times
• Psychic hits a very important mon in Crobat while still keeping coverage on Roserade and Chesnaught
• Synthesis gives Shaymin reliable recover; low PP
• Rest heals Shaymin fully and pairs nicely with Natural Cure, but essentially requires Shaymin to switch out after using it, which relinquishes momentum
• Healing Wish can be hard to fit on a set but provides fantastic utility

Set Details
========

• The given spread is self-explanatory, it gives Shaymin as much Speed and power as possible
• Life Orb is used to help Shaymin wallbreak + the recoil can be offset thanks to its reliable recovery
• 4 SpD Evs for Download

Usage Tips
========

• The many bulky Water- (Suicune, Alom) and Ground-types (Swampert, Hippo) that populate the tier give Shaymin plenty of opportunities to switch in and wallbreak
• You should be wary of the fact that many bulky Water-types have now resorted to using Ice Beam to deal with Zygarde
• Be wary of spamming Seed Flare without thinking as the low PP and high miss chance can make it an easily exploited move
• However, abusing the 40% chance of a SpD drop is often the best way to snowball past would-be checks like Celebi (2HKOed by Air Slash if it gets the SpD drop on the switch)

Team Options
========

• Any Pokemon which appreciates the removal of bulky Water- and Ground-types makes a good offensive partner to Shaymin; in particular Darmanitan can bring in Shaymin safely with U-turn and Krook can Pursuit trap problematic Pokemons like Jirachi and to an extent Crobat
• LO Shaymin struggles to get past extremely specially bulky Pokemons like Blissey so it should be partnered with mons which can either lure and beat them (like LO Mixed Nape/Hydreigon) or set-up on them (Zygarde)

Choice Specs
########
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Seed Flare
move 2: Healing Wish / Energy Ball
move 3: Earth Power / Dazzling Gleam
move 4: Psychic / Air Slash
ability: Natural Cure
item: Choice Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Specs Seed Flare becomes very scary, not extremely bulky resists such as Hydreigon, Rotom-H or Mega Pidgeot fall into 2HKO range
• Healing Wish is a fantastic support move that you actually have room for
  
• Earth Power is a much more risky move when you're locking yourself into it, hits the same mons obviously; doesn't quite 2HKO Jirachi
• Dazzling Gleam still hits Hydreigon, Kyurem and Noivern; Zygarde takes more damage from Seed Flare but Dazzling Gleam won't miss and actually 2HKOes through Leftovers with Specs
  
• Psychic comfortably OHKOes Crobat after SR, Air Slash still falls short of the 2HKO on Celebi
• While Healing Wish is the selling point of this set, Energy Ball is a safe, reliable STAB move with no PP issue that Shaymin really appreciates. This is especially true on teams where HW has little utility

Set Details
========

• The given spread is self-explanatory, it gives Shaymin as much Speed and power as possible
• Although it might be tempting to run a Modest nature on a Specs set, Shaymin outspeeding Pokemons like Hydreigon and Darmanitan is more important than the increase in damage output which still doesn't threaten the likes of Blissey or get the OHKO on Jirachi
• Choice Specs Shaymin packs a hefty punch but you can't switch moves, which puts a damper on Shaymin's great coverage and exacerbates PP issues with Seed Flare
  
• 4 SpD Evs for Download yada yada

Usage Tips
========

• Because of the lack of a recovery move, Specs Shaymin can be worn down very quickly by Scald burns or simply switching into resisted moves, do not expect it to stick around as much as other sets
• As a result, prediction is key when using this set especially if hazards are on your side of the field
• Susceptible to being turned into set-up bait so don't click coverage moves recklessly
• Make full use of Healing Wish; sometimes Shaymin won't be doing much else if it's worth it

Team Options
========

• Choice Specs Shaymin is best used on very offensive teams which appreciate its high damage output and can put to good use the utility of Healing Wish, and usually provide the hazards Shaymin requires to OHKO some Pokemons like Crobat or Entei
• Threatening set-up sweepers which synergize well with Shaymin like DD Zygarde or CM Jirachi can do their own wallbreaking with Healing Wish support
• Because Choice items lock you into a move, having a decent switchin to common Shaymin answers like Crobat is required should you predict wrong

Leech Seed
########
name: Leech Seed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Seed Flare
move 3: Psychic / Air Slash
move 4: Substitute / Protect
ability: Natural Cure
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Leech Seed lets Shaymin wear down special walls such as Blissey and Florges while also keeping Shaymin healthy
• Seed Flare is still a strong reliable STAB move, it should be noted that the drop in power due to Leftovers is very noticeable
• The choice between Air Slash and Psychic is complicated by the fact that, while Air Slash provides insurance against the Grass-types which are unaffected by Leech Seed, Crobat is an even more important target because it can hit through Subs
• Substitute can be used to ease predictions and protect Shaymin from status, while allowing Shaymin to stall out Pokemons with Leech Seed
• Protect is an okay alternative to Substitute which doesn't cut Shaymin's health

Set Details
========

• Leftovers is used to let Shaymin get enough residual healing alongside Leech Seed to be able to continuously make Substitutes and to gain more survivability in general
• The use of an offensive spread is required to keep the benefits of Shaymin's important Speed tier as well as to make up for its average SpA stat
• Going for a more bulky spread is possible but not recommended, in particular Shaymin doesn't really need to make 101 hp Substitutes

Usage Tips
========

• Leech Seed is the move to spam here, in order to wear down the opponent and keep Shaymin healthy
• Once you have seeded a Pokemon, you can repeatedly use Substitute to wear it down without losing any health or wear it down more quickly with Seed Flare
• Seed Flare PP issues are perhaps the most noticeable with this set as it sticks around

Team Options
========

• This particular Shaymin set forces a lot of switches and as a result works best with hazard support. Many SR setters like Krook, Gligar or Mega Aero benefit in return from the removal of bulky waters
• A special mention is given to Toxic Spikes as they add to the residual damage of Leech Seed. In particular, Nidoqueen has decent synergy with Shaymin and thrives when special walls are worn down

Other Options
########

• A Choice Scarf set with Healing Wish can be used, especially as Shaymin is faster that Hydreigon, but without a boosting item Shaymin isn't very strong and Seed Flare misses
  
• A physical set consisting of Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Return / Synthesis with LO can be used to surprise Shaymin's traditional counters, as Blissey, Goodra, and SpD Celebi are all 2HKOed by +2 Return, but it is very match-up reliant and overall not as reliable as Shaymin's other sets.
• Tailwind

Checks & Counters
########

**Dedicated Special Walls**: Blissey isn't phazed by any of Shaymin's attacking moves unless Shaymin gets two SpD drops. However, it has to be wary of the Leech Seed set which can stall it out and must be played with caution around the Specs set. Goodra is a special case as with its ability Sap Sipper it is immune to Seed Flare and due to its great special bulk takes a pittance from Shaymin's coverage moves.

**Bulky Steel-types**: Jirachi, while 2HKOed by Earth Power, makes a good switchin to the rest of Shaymin's moveset, shrugging off even Specs Seed Flare. SpD Bronzong is immune to Earth Power, Shaymin's only coverage on Steel-types, but has no recovery of its own and only the combination of Toxic and Gyro Ball forces out Synthesis Shaymin.

**Flying-types**: Faster Flying-types like Mega Pidgeot, Crobat and Noivern make good checks to Shaymin (although Crobat and Noivern cannot switch into Psychic and Dazzling Gleam respectively) as they can Roost off damage and force Shaymin out with their powerful STAB moves.

**Fire-types**: Most Fire-types either faster than Shaymin or unaffected by Earth Power, such as Infernape, Rotom-H, Choice Scarf Chandelure and Darmanitan, can switch into Shaymin with caution or simply revenge-kill it, but they will be worn down quickly by SR.

 

[Jellied Eels]

All right, I think I'm comfortable with putting this through QC.
There are a few things I want to point out / ask:

• regarding the set order, I put SubSeed last as I believe it is the least effective set in this metagame where Blissey should only be found on full stall and Crobat is everywhere
• I went ahead and added Specs Shaymin which imo plays differently enough from LO to warrant its own set. The ability to comfortably fit HW into the moveset (it can be done on the LO set of course but then the recoil becomes very awkward) + a stupidly dangerous STAB move are its two main selling points; thoughts ?
• I think the general consensus is that Psychic should be slashed before Air Slash because of Crobat and Celebi not really caring either way but I can see an argument for slashing it the other way around on SubSeed, what should I do ?
• still regarding the SubSeed set, I'm really not comfortable with adding a bulkier spread. In my experience Shaymin needs all the speed and power it can get and the only mon to use Seismic Toss in UU is Blissey anyway, which already gives back a ton health through Leech Seed

 

[dodmen]

Hey, great work here, this looks like a really solid analysis to me. Regarding your questions: 1) You're correct about the set order and you've done a good job in your analysis of explaining how the two sets are different. 2) I agree with Specs having its own set 3) I also agree with Psychic being first on LO and Specs while Air Slash should come first on SubSeed (this one I could see going either way, but in the end it's not too important) and 4) What you wrote in the analysis for Sub Seed is perfect, listing 252 SpA as the main set while mentioning a bulkier set in the Set Details section.

List Tailwind as an Other Option and go a little more in depth in the Checks and Counters section, explaining why/how each group checks or counters Shaymin (check out other approved analyses to see how this is done). Other than that I can't see any problems with what you've got, so once the above is implemented, QC 1/3

 

[IronBullet]

Looks great, only issue I have is with the c&c section. You really need to go more in-depth here than simply stating the Pokemon as dodmen pointed out. He already answered your other questions so that's fine.

Just one more thing, I would recommend slashing Energy Ball over Healing Wish on the Specs set as Shaymin really appreciates a STAB move that it can reliably spam without fear of PP or accuracy issues. And if Healing Wish support is not something a team really requires, it still packs enough of a punch to warrant a slot. I have used it before and it has definitely proved to be useful late-game in cleaning up.

So provided above is implemented and c&c is expanded on - QC 2/3

 

[Jellied Eels]

Thanks for the quick replies ! I added Tailwind to OO and slashed Energy Ball on the Specs set, I'd actually never thought about that but it's a great idea. I reworked the C&C section so that it hopefully looks more like it should do as well.

I should get this written over the week-end.

 

[Jellied Eels]

Well, I didn't specify which week-end I was talking about, I guess. This is written and hopefully ready for the last QC check.

 

[Saria]

Remove all Zygarde mentions. There are plenty of them so make sure you aren't just deleting them, otherwise half the analysis won't make sense.

Sub Seed needs Earth Power mentioned.

Hazards support need to be mentioned in all sets. They help Shaymin break through the foe's team , SR hurt the huge majority of its offensive checks, and lastly every set is incredibly good at forcing switches thanks to its ability to scare away bulky water / hippo / etc, and Seed Flare's SDef drop. Sub Seed deserves a special mention here because it is really good at forcing your opp to switch out or die.

HP Fire in OO because it hits Forry and Escavalier (incredibly good Pokemon in the current meta).

Defensive set in OO with Aromatherapy. As bulky as Celebi without the Pursuit and 4x U-turn weaknesses, and unlike Roserade it can deal with physical attacks.

Specially defensive Roserade and Amoonguss check it pretty well, also they completely stop the Sub Seed set.

Mention SDef Forretress in bulky Steel-types. Earth Power doesn't 4HKO and it's significantly more common than Bronzong.

 

[Jellied Eels]

Thanks Hikari , I think I got everything you listed. In particular, I've put Earth Power in the Moves section of the SubSeed set, but I will give it slash if you want - I've being trying it out and it's definitely good.

 

[Saria]

QC 3/3

Jellied Eels

 

[Ununhexium]

Jellied Eels If you're not working in this can I take it over

 

[AllAttack]

Btw, if this is gonna be picked up remove mentions of the mons that have gone (rachi, celebi)