Not to mention, he's actually a great partner to both Rhyperior & Mega Lix. These two together as PhysDef Peli & SpD Rhype/Mega Lix really covers a lot of the current threats pretty easily.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion
- Thread starter Molk
- Start date
- Status
I think Mantine is bulkier if I'm not mistaken, but it doesn't have reliable recovery so it has a harder time checking stuff that Pelipper can. It has better overall bulk than Pelipper (admittedly Pelipper is bulkier phyiscally, but overall I don't think it is as bulky) and gives Sclad and other Water-type attacks the middle finger at the cost of reliable recovery. IMO if Pelipper is moved up to B-, Mantine should go up to C+ as they are both so similar in how they work but are subtly different from one another, meaning that two full subranks apart would be too much, but Pelipper should be ranked higher than Mantine because the latter is mostly outclassed by Jellicent.
also fyi I support the Pelipper move.
Gurdurr for B
Come on now, Gurdurr isn't that far from B. With the ever evolving meta game coming from multiple angles, more pokemon coming and going left and right, Gurdurr has been relatively quiet in the spotlight. Gurdurr is still a dangerous force and despite meta game trends like Fairies and Noivern, Gurdurr can still tear holes into teams with relative ease thanks to it's flagship bulk up set. It's a nice thing to have in a tier filled with Cobalions and Scraftys. A very useful ability and with the decline of Knock Off users in general, Gurdurr can make a small comeback this metagame.
Come on now, Gurdurr isn't that far from B. With the ever evolving meta game coming from multiple angles, more pokemon coming and going left and right, Gurdurr has been relatively quiet in the spotlight. Gurdurr is still a dangerous force and despite meta game trends like Fairies and Noivern, Gurdurr can still tear holes into teams with relative ease thanks to it's flagship bulk up set. It's a nice thing to have in a tier filled with Cobalions and Scraftys. A very useful ability and with the decline of Knock Off users in general, Gurdurr can make a small comeback this metagame.
Gonna touch on a lot of things real quick
Pelipper for B-: This seems obvious. Pelipper was pretty decent before the shift, and while Volt Switch Cobalion sets really mess with it, it's only a little less reliable of a counter as Jellicent, while also offering team support in a way Jellicent can not.
Gurdurr for B: It counters Dragon Dance Scrafty, which is really hard to do, and can beat SD Cobalion if Iron Head hax doesn't kick in. Generally good matchups against all of S and A+ except Noivern from what I can tell.
Hitmonlee for A+: Absolutely. Double priority sets can be rough for offense, and reckless LO HJK is tough to stomach on balance or stall.
Medicham and Gallade for same rank: I think Gallade does have some serious merits over Medicham, but Medicham's power can't be overlooked. Ranking them the same seems really fine and they're really not even competing (except scarf Gallade has Destiny Bond I guess).
Uxie for B+: It has like everything you could ever want for team support except Healing Wish, plus it has *other* sets. If this got recovery it'd probably be A or higher, but B+ seems fine for now.
Accelgor to A-: The spikes set is pretty amazing and the LO set is at least as good as Jolteon, having slightly less power and no Volt Switch in exchange for much better coverage and a real support movepool. It still gets Baton Pass to quickly pivot out if necessary. It can also subpass if you're into that.
Flygon to A: I almost feel like this is reactionary to it not being a God like the other drops. I'd give it more time before moving it, it's certainly pretty good and I think if special sets caught on people would be more afraid of it's versatility.
Pelipper for B-: This seems obvious. Pelipper was pretty decent before the shift, and while Volt Switch Cobalion sets really mess with it, it's only a little less reliable of a counter as Jellicent, while also offering team support in a way Jellicent can not.
Gurdurr for B: It counters Dragon Dance Scrafty, which is really hard to do, and can beat SD Cobalion if Iron Head hax doesn't kick in. Generally good matchups against all of S and A+ except Noivern from what I can tell.
Hitmonlee for A+: Absolutely. Double priority sets can be rough for offense, and reckless LO HJK is tough to stomach on balance or stall.
Medicham and Gallade for same rank: I think Gallade does have some serious merits over Medicham, but Medicham's power can't be overlooked. Ranking them the same seems really fine and they're really not even competing (except scarf Gallade has Destiny Bond I guess).
Uxie for B+: It has like everything you could ever want for team support except Healing Wish, plus it has *other* sets. If this got recovery it'd probably be A or higher, but B+ seems fine for now.
Accelgor to A-: The spikes set is pretty amazing and the LO set is at least as good as Jolteon, having slightly less power and no Volt Switch in exchange for much better coverage and a real support movepool. It still gets Baton Pass to quickly pivot out if necessary. It can also subpass if you're into that.
Flygon to A: I almost feel like this is reactionary to it not being a God like the other drops. I'd give it more time before moving it, it's certainly pretty good and I think if special sets caught on people would be more afraid of it's versatility.
Let's look at S and A rank and see what beats Torterra. Noivern wins, Reuniclus wins, Alomo can probably toxic stall it, wood hammer recoil and wish spam wears down Torterra, Durant uses Hone Claws, lives EQ, kills with X Scissor, Flygon can U Turn and Fire Blast away at it, Glalie wins, Lee wins, Melo wins, Viriz wins, Doom wins, Fletch wins, HP Ice Jolt wins.
If it gets a rock polish up it can outspeed and beat Jolt, Noivern, Durant lacking x scissor, Lee, and Doom. Also Flygon has 75% chance to die after rocks. Melo gets 2hkoed and can't ohko Torterra. Alomomola can't really stall it :
252 Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 463-546 (92.4 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also Fletch dropped in usage, so it doesn't bother Torterra that much.
252 Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 463-546 (92.4 - 108.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also Fletch dropped in usage, so it doesn't bother Torterra that much.
I think what Cheek is trying to say is getting opportunities to rock polish in this meta is extremely hard since most of the common things in the tier can beat it 1v1 or massively damage it. It's also crippled by the fact that a lot of teams are now carrying Sneasel and Glalie to snipe Noivern with Ice Shard and Fletchinder is kinda rising in popularity since it revenges a lot of top tier stuff.
Can we all agree Torterra should at least be ranked? I mean its good bulk and stabs pack a punch. Also reasons already mentioned as well above.
tehy
Banned deucer.
I've used Torterra fairly extensively in a defensive role; it's cool as a defensive ground for Cobalion, Drapion, Rhyperior, Tyrantrum, and M-lix, and Synthesis helps differentiate it from M-lix, while Sr is just cool. Mostly, i've used Swords Dance 2 attacks Synthesis; in theory it should do well against defensive teams, but in practice you've got to double switch on flying-types with rocks up a lot. Overall a cool defensive mon though, and it's always nice to have something to take a head smash.
phantom
Banned deucer.
I added Torterra to B-. It was originally ranked B in the last VRs, but was misplaced along with some other Pokemon for some reason; I wasn't aware that it remained unranked up until now. I'm not moving it any higher though because its strengths are being exaggerated a tad (it's not a perfect check to Flygon, Rotom-C, or Rhyperior for starters) and there's the fact that Noivern and Mega Glalie are all over the place at the moment. It definitely has its strengths, such as being a great Tyrantrum check, among other things, but B- feels like the best spot for it atm.
Also, I'll get around to looking at all of the suggestions and updating the list accordingly within the next week or so, unless someone else who can do it gets to it before I do.
Also, I'll get around to looking at all of the suggestions and updating the list accordingly within the next week or so, unless someone else who can do it gets to it before I do.
phantom
Banned deucer.
Ok I lied, I ended up getting to this sooner than expected so here are the updates:
Swellow added to C-
Hitmonlee up to A+
Uxie up to B+
Alomomola down to A
Pelipper up to C+
Escavalier up to A-
Rotom-C Up to A-
Some things:
As I was going through updating the list, there were some Pokemon that I wanted to move around, but I'd like some discussion on them first before I do anything.
Jellicent to A+:
Jellicent is probably the best bulky Water-type in RU right now (I never thought I'd say this). Between countering Cobalion and being a great Reuniclus check, it's kinda hard to build a team and not use it. Unlike Alomomola, I feel like Jellicent is a lot less exploitable because it can deal damage and because of its access to Taunt to keep itself from being statused and set up on. Jellicent's flaws basically boil down to being: susceptibility to Pursuit and weakness to Knock Off, but Jellicent's decentish Speed, Will-O-Wisp, and Scald help it get around most Pursuit trappers, so I feel like it's not that big of an issue. Hex is also a really cool option on it as well if you have something else that can deal with Houndoom and other Fire-types to a lesser extent; 110 BP Ghost STAB with the added on burn damage does a ton even without investment.
Durant to A:
With Jellicent, Noivern, Steelix, and Cobalion being particularly ubiquitous right now, I don't feel like Durant is the hottest pick for teams atm. The Choice Scarf set is still good vs offense, but it's STABs don't exactly have great coverage and a Choiced Superpower isn't the best thing to be locked into, so it's a bit prediction heavy as a result. The meta being particularly fast right now coupled with the fact that most defensive teams use Jellicent means that Hone Claws set has a bit of difficulty breaking down these teams or pulling off a sweep.
Tyrantrum to A+:
This is the Pokemon that punishes your team severely for not including a Rock resist and is one of the best Choice Scarf users and wallbreakers in RU. It contributes a ton defensive wise also, courtesy of being a great Fire check and Flying resist. I don't think Noivern and Glalie being so common affected it as much as was anticipated, considering Choice Scarf is the best set as of now; although its Choice Scarf set does face a bit of competition with Flygon, it has much more power and considerably more spammable STAB move that still makes it a threat even against defensive Pokemon.
Feel free to discuss the above and nominate other Pokemon to move/up down. If you disagree with any of the changes, you're free to say so as well.
Swellow added to C-
Hitmonlee up to A+
Uxie up to B+
Alomomola down to A
Pelipper up to C+
Escavalier up to A-
Rotom-C Up to A-
Some things:
As I was going through updating the list, there were some Pokemon that I wanted to move around, but I'd like some discussion on them first before I do anything.
Jellicent to A+:
Jellicent is probably the best bulky Water-type in RU right now (I never thought I'd say this). Between countering Cobalion and being a great Reuniclus check, it's kinda hard to build a team and not use it. Unlike Alomomola, I feel like Jellicent is a lot less exploitable because it can deal damage and because of its access to Taunt to keep itself from being statused and set up on. Jellicent's flaws basically boil down to being: susceptibility to Pursuit and weakness to Knock Off, but Jellicent's decentish Speed, Will-O-Wisp, and Scald help it get around most Pursuit trappers, so I feel like it's not that big of an issue. Hex is also a really cool option on it as well if you have something else that can deal with Houndoom and other Fire-types to a lesser extent; 110 BP Ghost STAB with the added on burn damage does a ton even without investment.
Durant to A:
With Jellicent, Noivern, Steelix, and Cobalion being particularly ubiquitous right now, I don't feel like Durant is the hottest pick for teams atm. The Choice Scarf set is still good vs offense, but it's STABs don't exactly have great coverage and a Choiced Superpower isn't the best thing to be locked into, so it's a bit prediction heavy as a result. The meta being particularly fast right now coupled with the fact that most defensive teams use Jellicent means that Hone Claws set has a bit of difficulty breaking down these teams or pulling off a sweep.
Tyrantrum to A+:
This is the Pokemon that punishes your team severely for not including a Rock resist and is one of the best Choice Scarf users and wallbreakers in RU. It contributes a ton defensive wise also, courtesy of being a great Fire check and Flying resist. I don't think Noivern and Glalie being so common affected it as much as was anticipated, considering Choice Scarf is the best set as of now; although its Choice Scarf set does face a bit of competition with Flygon, it has much more power and considerably more spammable STAB move that still makes it a threat even against defensive Pokemon.
Feel free to discuss the above and nominate other Pokemon to move/up down. If you disagree with any of the changes, you're free to say so as well.
Why didn't Gallade move up? I think everyone agreed on that.
tehy
Banned deucer.
I didn't.
Jellicent to A+ is such ungodly yes. Will-o-Wisp is such a good move, he checks the tier's best threat and is generally bulky (and spinblocks for what that's worth). If you can fit Hex (breaks Cobal's sub btw), Jellicent becomes incredibly difficult to switch into; they have 1 switch-in with their special attacker on a Wisp, but after that they either risk a physical mon getting burned or take a Hex to the face, which usually does like...60%? If you have rocks up then that might've been a KO, counting the initial switch-in, so you can just rack up the kills versus offense, and late-game 'clean' by burning all the physical mons (and Hexing them to death too, I guess). Scald is unfortunately necessary for Pursuit Houndoom (though the foe isn't always eager to switch in, not knowing if you have Scald or not...they do like coming in if they predict Wisp though), and is nice since Mega Camerupt and Emboar can legitimately threaten you, while of course not getting burned (so you can't super-hex them). Hex also helps for Reuniclus (statusing it isn't that hard considering your foe might well use it as a status absorber). Meanwhile, Hex + Taunt + Wisp + Recover can beast through a lot of stall teams; even Amoonguss or Roselia aren't guaranteed victory, and Aromatisse just gets stalled out of Aromatherapy PP.
Durant to A: well, i kinda agree that he hasn't threatened me too much recently, but he does do a shit-ton of damage to Reuniclus, while switching in easily on Psyshock (or CM / Recover, duh). he can even tank a Focus Blast after rocks if you need him to...pro as hell. that said he is kind of shaky as a switch-in (unlike yon Knock Off abusers his power isn't neutered after the first hit, which is nice)
Tyrantrum to A+: what a gods-damn beast, of course.
other thoughts:
i agree with almost all the changes...maybe not Mola, but that's w/e.
Torterra: Yeah i honestly feel this is a bit too high, love Torterra though. A big note is that rhyperior has a lot of incentive to run Ice Punch now which doesn't help Torterra one bit; you still outspeed and Wood Hammer it, but it's unfortunate nevertheless. Also, after a bit of residual damage you can't take 2 leaf storms from Rotom-C.
Jellicent to A+ is such ungodly yes. Will-o-Wisp is such a good move, he checks the tier's best threat and is generally bulky (and spinblocks for what that's worth). If you can fit Hex (breaks Cobal's sub btw), Jellicent becomes incredibly difficult to switch into; they have 1 switch-in with their special attacker on a Wisp, but after that they either risk a physical mon getting burned or take a Hex to the face, which usually does like...60%? If you have rocks up then that might've been a KO, counting the initial switch-in, so you can just rack up the kills versus offense, and late-game 'clean' by burning all the physical mons (and Hexing them to death too, I guess). Scald is unfortunately necessary for Pursuit Houndoom (though the foe isn't always eager to switch in, not knowing if you have Scald or not...they do like coming in if they predict Wisp though), and is nice since Mega Camerupt and Emboar can legitimately threaten you, while of course not getting burned (so you can't super-hex them). Hex also helps for Reuniclus (statusing it isn't that hard considering your foe might well use it as a status absorber). Meanwhile, Hex + Taunt + Wisp + Recover can beast through a lot of stall teams; even Amoonguss or Roselia aren't guaranteed victory, and Aromatisse just gets stalled out of Aromatherapy PP.
Durant to A: well, i kinda agree that he hasn't threatened me too much recently, but he does do a shit-ton of damage to Reuniclus, while switching in easily on Psyshock (or CM / Recover, duh). he can even tank a Focus Blast after rocks if you need him to...pro as hell. that said he is kind of shaky as a switch-in (unlike yon Knock Off abusers his power isn't neutered after the first hit, which is nice)
Tyrantrum to A+: what a gods-damn beast, of course.
other thoughts:
i agree with almost all the changes...maybe not Mola, but that's w/e.
Torterra: Yeah i honestly feel this is a bit too high, love Torterra though. A big note is that rhyperior has a lot of incentive to run Ice Punch now which doesn't help Torterra one bit; you still outspeed and Wood Hammer it, but it's unfortunate nevertheless. Also, after a bit of residual damage you can't take 2 leaf storms from Rotom-C.
Hate to say it, but I'd like to see Omastar drop. It simply isn't very effective in this metagame, and placing it in the same ranking as Pokemon like Amoonguss and Clawitzer is too generous for it IMO.
The Shell Smash set is really mediocre at the moment. It has several good checks in Jellicent, Ferroseed, and Gurdurr and some shakier checks like Assault Vest Eelektross (this dies to a +2 Life Orb Hydro Pump, but will beat Omastar holding any other item). The rise of Jellicent in particular is troublesome for it, as it can tank a +2 LO Hidden Power Grass and retaliate with Scald. Also, offense has a ton of priority in the form of Shiftry, Hitmonlee, Druddigon, Skuntank, and other Pokemon that can easily pick off Omastar after it sets up, so those teams don't need something that can live a +2 attack. Offense just needs to be able to pressure it so it never sets up, and unless Omastar can get in on a Fletchinder or an ideal Choiced-locked move, it is going to have a difficult time setting up with that terrible defensive typing.
The hazard set is way more common than the Shell Smash set, but vs. most teams it has a very difficult time getting up more than one entry hazard. It is very easy to Volt Switch out of in the lead slot with a Rotom / Jolteon / Eelektross and finish off Omastar with a faster threat. Since lead Omastar only fits on HO, any Ground-type that you use with it (Dugtrio / RP Rhyperior) is not going to want to switch into any potential coverage move from LO Jolteon or what have you, so stopping the opponent from gaining Volt Switch momentum is difficult in practice. Fast Taunt users like Cobalion and Drapion stop it from getting hazards as well, though they both hate Scald burns and Drapion will likely lose one-on-one. Cobalion will outspeed Timid Omastar even if it activates Weak Armor, as will Durant / Virizion / anything at or above base 108 Speed. Omastar also has a type disadvantage vs. two offensive Defog users in Shiftry and Flygon, although if they try to Defog on Omastar they are getting smashed with Ice Beam. They're better off attacking Omastar after its Focus Sash is broken and using Defog later. TL;DR Weak Armor is not difficult to play around and Omastar's defensive typing leaves it susceptible to the majority of the metagame, impeding its ability to set up more than one hazard.
You can anticipate an Omastar anti-lead to gain some early momentum, but if the opponent manages to get a hazard onto the field by the time Omastar comes in, you're still only getting one hazard. I feel this Pokemon is better suited for B- or C+; it's still dangerous on paper and is a great Fletchinder punish (huge for offensive teams), but the metagame changes in ORAS have not been kind to it overall.
Forgive me Omastar D:
The Shell Smash set is really mediocre at the moment. It has several good checks in Jellicent, Ferroseed, and Gurdurr and some shakier checks like Assault Vest Eelektross (this dies to a +2 Life Orb Hydro Pump, but will beat Omastar holding any other item). The rise of Jellicent in particular is troublesome for it, as it can tank a +2 LO Hidden Power Grass and retaliate with Scald. Also, offense has a ton of priority in the form of Shiftry, Hitmonlee, Druddigon, Skuntank, and other Pokemon that can easily pick off Omastar after it sets up, so those teams don't need something that can live a +2 attack. Offense just needs to be able to pressure it so it never sets up, and unless Omastar can get in on a Fletchinder or an ideal Choiced-locked move, it is going to have a difficult time setting up with that terrible defensive typing.
The hazard set is way more common than the Shell Smash set, but vs. most teams it has a very difficult time getting up more than one entry hazard. It is very easy to Volt Switch out of in the lead slot with a Rotom / Jolteon / Eelektross and finish off Omastar with a faster threat. Since lead Omastar only fits on HO, any Ground-type that you use with it (Dugtrio / RP Rhyperior) is not going to want to switch into any potential coverage move from LO Jolteon or what have you, so stopping the opponent from gaining Volt Switch momentum is difficult in practice. Fast Taunt users like Cobalion and Drapion stop it from getting hazards as well, though they both hate Scald burns and Drapion will likely lose one-on-one. Cobalion will outspeed Timid Omastar even if it activates Weak Armor, as will Durant / Virizion / anything at or above base 108 Speed. Omastar also has a type disadvantage vs. two offensive Defog users in Shiftry and Flygon, although if they try to Defog on Omastar they are getting smashed with Ice Beam. They're better off attacking Omastar after its Focus Sash is broken and using Defog later. TL;DR Weak Armor is not difficult to play around and Omastar's defensive typing leaves it susceptible to the majority of the metagame, impeding its ability to set up more than one hazard.
You can anticipate an Omastar anti-lead to gain some early momentum, but if the opponent manages to get a hazard onto the field by the time Omastar comes in, you're still only getting one hazard. I feel this Pokemon is better suited for B- or C+; it's still dangerous on paper and is a great Fletchinder punish (huge for offensive teams), but the metagame changes in ORAS have not been kind to it overall.
Forgive me Omastar D:
Jellicent: This really is the big winner out of the May tier shifts. I mean, not only did Jelly lose its main competition as a bulky Water (Slowking) but it also has the ability to, at worst, tank out most common threats in the tier and stall them out. Being a near cold stop to Cobalion (the closest we have to a cold stop to that thing) is fucking amazing. Not only that, but it spinblocks for the balance / defensive teams that it's typically used on as well! Golden. Wisp nerfs what feels like half the tier right now and Ghost / Water STAB isn't exactly easy to come in on for most offensive mons as they're either weak to these types (Houndoom and Reuniclus) or simply can't take the risk of a Scald burn (Flygon, Cobalion, Mega Glalie, Scrafty, Tyrantrum, Escavalier, etc.) And yes, I'm aware Cobalion and Mega Glalie lose anyway, but this just kind of shows just how vulnerable most of the top tier threats are to burns right now. It's a great glue mon and really picks up where Slowking left off for the most part; plus a lot of Speed and a Ghost typing but minus Regenerator. Definitely support for A+ rank
Durant: I'm a little torn on this one. While the Hone Claws set is rendered a little ineffective, one set most people forget about is the Life Orb / Choice Band set. Full coverage on Durant is pretty fucking cool right now considering it can run Thunder Fang or Crunch in that last slot to nail Jellicent. It might still be worth A+, but I wouldn't really oppose it dropping to A rank. Just wanted to bring up the 4 Attacks Life Orb set as an option since it kind of seems to have been lost a bit.
Tyrantrum: Seriously, why aren't more people using this? Tyrantrum is arguably the best Scarfer in the tier right now thanks to its raw power and ability to outspeed and body Noivern with either STAB. A problem most common Scarfers have right now is being way too predictable vs. Noivern (Rotom-C has to use an Electric move. Medicham has to Zen Headbutt. Hitmonlee has to Stone Edge.) Tyrantrum doesn't have this issue. It can click Head Smash or Outrage / Dragon Claw and destroy Noivern. The problem for the Noivern user? They're at risk of losing a mon even if they switch out Noivern if they lack a Steel or Ground mon. Scarf Tyrant still has some wallbreaking power thanks to the sheer power of Head Smash, but it's an amazing cleaner that you can literally just click Head Smash with late-game if you play it right. Definitely worthy of A+ rank.
Don't have much experience with Omastar in the current meta, so i won't comment on it.
Durant: I'm a little torn on this one. While the Hone Claws set is rendered a little ineffective, one set most people forget about is the Life Orb / Choice Band set. Full coverage on Durant is pretty fucking cool right now considering it can run Thunder Fang or Crunch in that last slot to nail Jellicent. It might still be worth A+, but I wouldn't really oppose it dropping to A rank. Just wanted to bring up the 4 Attacks Life Orb set as an option since it kind of seems to have been lost a bit.
Tyrantrum: Seriously, why aren't more people using this? Tyrantrum is arguably the best Scarfer in the tier right now thanks to its raw power and ability to outspeed and body Noivern with either STAB. A problem most common Scarfers have right now is being way too predictable vs. Noivern (Rotom-C has to use an Electric move. Medicham has to Zen Headbutt. Hitmonlee has to Stone Edge.) Tyrantrum doesn't have this issue. It can click Head Smash or Outrage / Dragon Claw and destroy Noivern. The problem for the Noivern user? They're at risk of losing a mon even if they switch out Noivern if they lack a Steel or Ground mon. Scarf Tyrant still has some wallbreaking power thanks to the sheer power of Head Smash, but it's an amazing cleaner that you can literally just click Head Smash with late-game if you play it right. Definitely worthy of A+ rank.
Don't have much experience with Omastar in the current meta, so i won't comment on it.
Sneasel to A-
Sneasel's crazy af this meta. We all know what a blessing Ice Shard is currently, and Knock Off has been an amazing move since XY, and Sneasel gets STAB on both! It's blazing fast so unless you have some priority the LO set is an amazing wincon late game. Choice Band sacrifices the versatility of switching moves to 2HKO Cobalion on the switch with Low Kick. Even the Eviolite SD set has merit, being able to pick off threats with a solid Ice Shard. It even beats 2 of the 3 S Ranks (beats Cobalion on switch), and it's just so good late game rn.
Sneasel's crazy af this meta. We all know what a blessing Ice Shard is currently, and Knock Off has been an amazing move since XY, and Sneasel gets STAB on both! It's blazing fast so unless you have some priority the LO set is an amazing wincon late game. Choice Band sacrifices the versatility of switching moves to 2HKO Cobalion on the switch with Low Kick. Even the Eviolite SD set has merit, being able to pick off threats with a solid Ice Shard. It even beats 2 of the 3 S Ranks (beats Cobalion on switch), and it's just so good late game rn.
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
I'm actually thinking that Jellicent is easily an S rank threat right now. It checks / counters so much common stuff right now and has ways to severely weaken a lot of its answers with Will o Wisp + Hex (and no, this doesn't make Houndoom a good answer to Jellicent lol) This would be all fine and dandy if it was easy to wear it down but... it isn't. Taunt and reliable recovery to top it off really pushes Jellicent. Taunt stops hazards and status, along with setup from mons like Cobalion and Reuniclus. You can't even fish for Scald burns vs it because of Water Absorb (though you can fish for poison with Sludge Bomb). Now this really makes Jellicent an A+ rank threat easily, but it's also extremely splashable and easy to put on teams (pokemon that beat the entirety of S rank tend to be) as seen by its heavy, HEAVY usage on the ladder. If it doesn't move to S rank and only moves to A+ I'll be okay with that, but in a very worst-case scenario where Reuniclus and Noivern stay in RU, Jellicent will need to be S rank imo. It doesn't break the meta or anything, but it definitely defines it.
I think Durant is fine where it is based on its LO 4 attacks set, which is extremely solid right now, but missing really sucks still and I know most of us hate hax so I'll just leave it with that.
I agree with Sneasel and Tyrantrum moving up.
Spirit you put Swellow in C instead of C- like you said. I'm sure it was just a mistake. Based on my experiences using Swellow, it's fine in C- and shouldn't move up or down because it hits pretty hard but it has a really hard time breaking through mons like Mega Steelix and Rhyperior, on top of the fact that it gets worn down extremely easily between Toxic and Stealth Rock and is extremely frail. Its Boomburst set is pretty fun to use though and it can break bulky mons with Endeavor. Outspeeding Noivern is also nice so yeah.
Spirit edit: good eye, fixed.
I think Durant is fine where it is based on its LO 4 attacks set, which is extremely solid right now, but missing really sucks still and I know most of us hate hax so I'll just leave it with that.
I agree with Sneasel and Tyrantrum moving up.
Spirit you put Swellow in C instead of C- like you said. I'm sure it was just a mistake. Based on my experiences using Swellow, it's fine in C- and shouldn't move up or down because it hits pretty hard but it has a really hard time breaking through mons like Mega Steelix and Rhyperior, on top of the fact that it gets worn down extremely easily between Toxic and Stealth Rock and is extremely frail. Its Boomburst set is pretty fun to use though and it can break bulky mons with Endeavor. Outspeeding Noivern is also nice so yeah.
Spirit edit: good eye, fixed.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Since we all know that Cobalion, Noivern and Reuniclus will all be banned, I feel that this is suitable. Mega Lix is probably the best mega in the tier right now imo. It is really splashable, and hits heavy with Heavy Slam and Earthquake. He can run many viable sets, and can 2HKO most of the tier with ease.
Just a thought.
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 194-230 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 330-390 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 100-118 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 248-292 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just some quick examples
[HIDE/]
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 194-230 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 330-390 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 100-118 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 248-292 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just some quick examples
[HIDE/]
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
Just going to point out that whether or not said Pokemon will get banned is irrelevant because the viability rankings should reflect the current meta, not a future one.A+ -------> S
Since we all know that Cobalion, Noivern and Reuniclus will all be banned, I feel that this is suitable.
phantom
Banned deucer.
updates:
Jellicent up to A+
Tyrantrum up to A+
Durant down to A
Omastar down to B-
Sneasel up to A-
I also moved Hitmonlee back to A. In retrospect, it really isn't an A+ Pokemon at all in this metagame with Noivern and Reuniclus everywhere, not to mention that Spiritomb has been gaining traction to counter Reuniclus alongside other Fairy-types designated to beat Noivern, which makes the metagame in general fairly harsh for it. I realize Scrafty shares similar issues, but it provides its team some actual defensive synergy and can beat Spiritomb if it has shed skin, both of which are more important to have in this meta when Hitmonlee's Speed tier doesn't beat out on the really important threats nor is its priority particularly useful.
Jellicent up to A+
Tyrantrum up to A+
Durant down to A
Omastar down to B-
Sneasel up to A-
I also moved Hitmonlee back to A. In retrospect, it really isn't an A+ Pokemon at all in this metagame with Noivern and Reuniclus everywhere, not to mention that Spiritomb has been gaining traction to counter Reuniclus alongside other Fairy-types designated to beat Noivern, which makes the metagame in general fairly harsh for it. I realize Scrafty shares similar issues, but it provides its team some actual defensive synergy and can beat Spiritomb if it has shed skin, both of which are more important to have in this meta when Hitmonlee's Speed tier doesn't beat out on the really important threats nor is its priority particularly useful.
Gallade's access to Swords Dance and all the coverage moves it needs (Zen Headbutt, Knock Off) make it arguably, or even inarguably, the best wallbreaking Fighting-type in the whole tier. It can run down slower teams like a
Now this mon is a tad overhyped; people keep using this and ignore Gallade, though that is mostly because they don't even know Gallade is RU. Medicham has a host of problems that don't bode well for it: the most obvious ones being it is just as slow as Gallade, but doesn't have high Special Defense nor Swords Dance. Its main STAB, High Jump Kick, is risky to use, due to the Ghosts in the tier that are either prominent (Jellicent) or just supremely screw it over (Spiritomb, Mummy Cofagrigus), plus Protect users like Alomo and Aroma can make it hasty about 'finishing the job'. It also doesn't have coverage for bulky Psychics, most notably Reuniclus, but things like Uxie and Mesprit also come to mind. All these qualities really make me wonder if non-Scarf Medicham is even worth using over SD Gallade, much less in general.
Last edited:
- Status