Just letting you know that this isn't anything close to a reason that one Pokemon beats another.
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Reuniclus
- Thread starter Pratty
- Start date
Rankurusu is quite effective against all kinds of teams and nearly impossible to beat with stall, Clefable and Shinbora are like you said useless against everything else and therefore not broken. Nobody will consider banning something that is only usefull against one style of team
Also i have to ask you something, what are you trying to achieve Kefka? Apparently you completely ignore arguments that counter yours, also you tell people you talk against not to use the main counter arguments.
To me it sounds like you are attempting to force winning an argument at all costs. Perhaps this is good for your ego, however it's extremely unproductive and harmfull for the community. So could you please give reasonable arguments with logic please? Instead of those you are giving now...
My bad about Murkrow. Forgot about Roost removing its Flying type.
But if the style being killed here is stall,why is Reuniclus the only one in question? Stall is the only one with huge problems here. Reuniclus is good at things OTHER than stall,but the style we're talking about is STALL.
What arguments have I ignored?
I try to argue,but most of the times,some else says exactly wanted I was going to say,or the counter-argument is like 5 pages away. There would be no point in replying an argument that has probably already been discussed.
I'm not attempting to force anything.
I just don't agree with Reuniclus' nomination and I think it's just silly.
I was just asking a question,because it just seems that people only want to ban Reuniclus because it's good against stall,while not being mediocre outside of countering it,whilst their only argument is "it makes stall unviable".
My apologises i shouldn't have jumped on conclusions this quickly.
Rankurusu is the only who is brought in question because it's the only Magic Guard pokemon that top players actually use. If you are high up in the ladder you won't be facing any Clefable or Shinbora as they are a waste of a teamslot against most teams.
They make stall "unviable"
It shouldn't matter if something isn't used much.
If it makes certain things "unviable" and can insta-win against certain teams,then why not ban them too?
Because they don't make stall unviable,and neither does Reuniclus.
The only reason people want to ban Reuniclus is because he's more common.
Quite frankly i can't argue against someone who states opinions without backing them up with solid arguments. Answering to this can only lead to running in cycles and generally shitting up this topic in an endless argument.
That is also why i gained the impression that you want to 'force' your argument in the first place, i can't help to think that i'm arguing with someone who isn't older than 15 here.
@Kefka
I hate getting in the middle of these kinds of arguements but I actually agree with Judas. We're not here to discuss Shinpora and clefable. We're discussing Reuiniclus. Saying "Why not do this if your doing that" doesnt gain any ground to keep something where you want it to be. It comes down to facts, numbers, and expirience.
I hate getting in the middle of these kinds of arguements but I actually agree with Judas. We're not here to discuss Shinpora and clefable. We're discussing Reuiniclus. Saying "Why not do this if your doing that" doesnt gain any ground to keep something where you want it to be. It comes down to facts, numbers, and expirience.
>.>
I'm simply saying that if Reuniclus makes stall "unviable" and should be banned. Why not also ban the other mons who do the exact same thing?
They make stall "unviable".
Cleffable can CM up.
Sigilyph can use Cosmic power to become near immortal along with Roost and can throw out Assist Powers.
Reuniclus can CM up too along with Recover.
Why is Reuniclus the only one being nominated and poked at then?
He's not the only one that can supposedly make stall "unviable".
But stall is the one it makes "unviable".
Which is the only reason to even consider a ban.
Reuniclus/Rankurusu is the only one with the mix of Offense and Amazing bulk though. Clefable is OHKO'd by powerful fighting type attacks quite often, is less bulky and less powerful and doesn't pose a threat until it sets up. Rankurusu is bulkier, hits much harder has arguably less common weaknesses, especially considering Dark type attacks that OHKO are pretty much nonexistent. Shinpora has the bulk, yes, but it has to do some serious setting up before it is particularly damaging - this makes it much more vulnerable to Phazing/Haze. Rankurusu not only has Magic Guard, but also has the perfect blend of power and bulk to abuse it - something the others are lacking.
Let's assume that clefable, reuniclus and shinpora all defeat stall wholly and utterly with 1 set. If stall faces that set, it loses.
Yes, all three mons are equally good against stall. No, not all three mons make stall unviable. Only reunclus could. Why? Because it is the only one a stall team could expect to face. This matters. Stall only has to deal with mons that people actually use.
The reason that stall teams will only ever have to deal with reuniclus is because the set that destroys stall is still useful against other playstyles. This is not true for clefable and shinpora.
So yes, all three mons are equally good against stall. But only reuniclus makes stall unviable. This is a result of its usefulness against other playstyles, so yes, how cm reuniclus does against offense IS relevant.
Yes, all three mons are equally good against stall. No, not all three mons make stall unviable. Only reunclus could. Why? Because it is the only one a stall team could expect to face. This matters. Stall only has to deal with mons that people actually use.
The reason that stall teams will only ever have to deal with reuniclus is because the set that destroys stall is still useful against other playstyles. This is not true for clefable and shinpora.
So yes, all three mons are equally good against stall. But only reuniclus makes stall unviable. This is a result of its usefulness against other playstyles, so yes, how cm reuniclus does against offense IS relevant.
So,they do all do the same thing to stall....yet only Reuniclus makes stall "unviable"?
If anything, Reuniclus is just the most common stall killer who people just refuse to prepare against.
Btw,here's another mon that can do surprisingly well against the Bulky CM Reuniclus: Unaware Quagsire
I use this set:
216 HP/108 Def/184 Sp.def - Sassy
-Boil Over
-EQ
-Recover
-Stockpile
It was posted on Quagsire's topic,and I just slightly tweaked it.
After 3 Stock Piles,Reuniclus barely does even 15% with Psycho Shock or even Focus Blast. I just PP stalled him out as with 300+ HP and 500+ in both defenses,you're godly.
People are just assuming that Reuniclus can completely dismantle stall, which it can't. There are so many bulky pokemon that can wall Reuniclus. Even if not all of them are top OU material, they can more than pull their weight if played right. I think people are just reluctant to adapt to new threats.
Aside from Quagsire, other pokemon that can beat CM Reuniclus are Slowbro, Spiritomb, Encore Politoed, any pokemon with encore, sleepers, and others I can't recall right now. Honestly, as long as you can prevent Reuniclus from gathering to many CM boosts, I think stall could deal with Reuniclus, as long as people adapt.
Aside from Quagsire, other pokemon that can beat CM Reuniclus are Slowbro, Spiritomb, Encore Politoed, any pokemon with encore, sleepers, and others I can't recall right now. Honestly, as long as you can prevent Reuniclus from gathering to many CM boosts, I think stall could deal with Reuniclus, as long as people adapt.
Honestly, from looking at that team, the problem I immediately see is that you can't do anything to bulky sweepers that aren't bothered by poison except phaze them. Stuff like bulk up Zuruzukin and CM Jirachi are just some examples. With standard CM rankurusu, you can easily send mew in and phaze it but once it's the last pokemon, you lack any way to kill it. It's the exact same problem with any bulky sweeper that
1) can boost
2) can recover
3) aren't bothered by burn or poison
Due to your lack of any special attacks, bulk up or curse users are especially effective. Even CM users that aren't too physically fragile will give you trouble. IMO that's a design flaw in your team and rankurusu is just one of many similar pokemon that takes advantage of it. Magic guard obviously helps but even with residual damage, you're not doing enough damage to anything after a bulk up/curse allowing them to easily heal off the damage.
Apart from that, if you play DW, Kerudio is something that will 1-2HKO everything after a CM. Perversity Jarooda/Serperior can do much the same using leaf storm/HP fire/sub/seed. Even something like voltlos running nasty plot/thunderbolt/hp ice/taunt will probably take out most of your team before going down.
Wow, im appalled at the bullshit in this thread. Reuniclus for Uber? Are you SHITTING me????
This thing has 100% paper counters, doesn't overcentralize the metagame, and does not make stall unviable since a few common stall members are 100% paper counters to this thing (Spiritomb, Perish Song Celebi, Calm Mind Roar Latias). And these aren't even overspecialized counters!!! For two, stall seems to have shit like Choice Scarf Tyranitar on it lately, which also hurts this thing pretty bad. I'm not buying it for shit. Also, this thing as slow as ass, so revenge killing it is cake.
This thing has 100% paper counters, doesn't overcentralize the metagame, and does not make stall unviable since a few common stall members are 100% paper counters to this thing (Spiritomb, Perish Song Celebi, Calm Mind Roar Latias). And these aren't even overspecialized counters!!! For two, stall seems to have shit like Choice Scarf Tyranitar on it lately, which also hurts this thing pretty bad. I'm not buying it for shit. Also, this thing as slow as ass, so revenge killing it is cake.
Eh, Roar CM Latias relies on being able to phaze it out. As a bit of a counterpoint, I've been knocked down to just Reuniclus in a few matches, started a CM war with Latias, and 2HKOed the bastard, who failed to do the same back by virtue of Psycho Shock. I'm not sure how common Psycho Shock is on Latias, but if that's the case, it still probably wins. I think. Agreed otherwise. And Jirachi can flinch the fucker to death with Iron Head easily enough, and Jirachi is still useful as ever this gen.
Curious though while I'm on this tangent, does CM Roar Latias run Psycho Shock?
Pretty damn well actually. Iron Head is a 3 or 4HKO on Trick Room variants, and that special defense means that Reuniclus is going to have problems getting past it. Wish + Iron Head is one effective trick to it. The CM sets utterly die against it. It's easy to flinch, and even if the flinch gods don't smile on you, you can still take quite a few hits from it due to Jirachi's awesome defenses.
Besides, Wishpassing, paralysis support, and the ability to soak Dragon-type moves (fun fact: Specially defensive Jirachi aren't 2HKO'd by LO Sazandra's Fire Blast, and Draco Meteor from Specs Latias does a laughable 37% on average from my testing.) make him awesome. Iron Head, Wish, and a choice of Thunder Wave/Body Slam leave you a last slot to throw whatever in there, like Fire Punch (For punishing Scizor and Nattorei), Ice Punch (Dragonkilling utility), Thunderpunch (Gyarados?), Stealth Rock, U-turn, Grass Knot, etc.
I could say more, but then I'd probably be derailing the thread entirely. Still, there's quite a few options.
I'm gonna do some damage calcs for 0 ev +1 neutral nature Reuniclus Focus Blast vs 252/252 ev Neutral nature Jirachi. (A specially defensive one.)
39.6 - 46.8% I really hate that Reuniclus is so stupidly strong on paper. It makes me very depressed. At the same time this is perfectly survivable. Jirachi can come in on Calm Mind, take the Focus Blast and proceed to hax it to death while wishing when it needs to. However, I still dont like the damage output Reuniclus is doing. A layer of spikes and stealth rock and it's a clean 2hko.
At the same time that same reuniclus deals 59.8 - 70.4% to 0/0 evs neutral nature Jirachi. It could come in on a calm mind and proceed to trick it a scarf while taking the focus blast but jirachi will not like that damage output one bit.
39.6 - 46.8% I really hate that Reuniclus is so stupidly strong on paper. It makes me very depressed. At the same time this is perfectly survivable. Jirachi can come in on Calm Mind, take the Focus Blast and proceed to hax it to death while wishing when it needs to. However, I still dont like the damage output Reuniclus is doing. A layer of spikes and stealth rock and it's a clean 2hko.
At the same time that same reuniclus deals 59.8 - 70.4% to 0/0 evs neutral nature Jirachi. It could come in on a calm mind and proceed to trick it a scarf while taking the focus blast but jirachi will not like that damage output one bit.
As a bit of a counterpoint though, Focus Blast does have that really shaky accuracy which is so fucking bad for something like this it really can't afford a miss, and if Jirachi comes in on the Calm Mind, Reuniclus loses anyways. That's not getting into the variants that use Hidden Power Fighting or Shadow Ball, or even HP Fire (which only does a bit better than Focus Blast, 140 effective BP vs 120 effective BP)
A simple calc in terms of accuracy, since you did the damage calculations for Focus Blast: Let's assume Jirachi can't flinch, which is like a fat prostitute, it just doesn't work. As for Focus Blast, it's a 70% chance to hit. The first time has a 70% chance of hitting, and for it to hit a second time, it's .7^2, which is 0.49, or 49% chance of hitting twice in a row. A third time would need to be .7^3, which is .343 or 34.3%. Factor in flinch odds (which I assume you're using), Wish, and leftovers, and Reuniclus would need the luck of the gods to win against a specially bulky variant.
In hindsight, HP Fire would be the best move for Reuniclus vs Jirachi, but if it does that, it's coverage goes to hell and just doesn't work. And in most cases, it's intended target is much faster to where it'd have to nail it on the switch: Scizor.
And don't forget trick room variants where flinching isn't part of the equation.
Then again, they aren't boosting, but they can cause a bit of a problem, especially those that invest into special attack (which is most, although it still isn't as strong as the neutral one after a Calm Mind). And they probably aren't running Recover in most instances, instead opting for maximum coverage.
HP Fire variants cause issues for this whole plan though on the TR variants. Those that don't run it generally lose anyways, and Focus Blast has the accuracy issue, while HP Fighting has power issues.
@ Bomb Kirby
In this case 252 evs Quiet Reuniclus Focus Blast is doing 53.1% - 62.8% to 0/0 Neutral Nature Jirachi. Therefore if jirachi can come in on psychic or Shadow Ball (Shadow Ball doing 35.8 - 42.2%) take the Focus Blast, and proceed to Trick it a scarf. Though in the end it'll be horribly crippled it will have done it's job of crippling that Reuniclus.
I'm not gonna do the specially bulky set because while it could take a focus blast better than from th +1 calm mind set it cant set up correctly in that it cant get it's flinches off and therefore has a much higher chance of getting koed vs Trick Room Reuniclus.
In this case 252 evs Quiet Reuniclus Focus Blast is doing 53.1% - 62.8% to 0/0 Neutral Nature Jirachi. Therefore if jirachi can come in on psychic or Shadow Ball (Shadow Ball doing 35.8 - 42.2%) take the Focus Blast, and proceed to Trick it a scarf. Though in the end it'll be horribly crippled it will have done it's job of crippling that Reuniclus.
I'm not gonna do the specially bulky set because while it could take a focus blast better than from th +1 calm mind set it cant set up correctly in that it cant get it's flinches off and therefore has a much higher chance of getting koed vs Trick Room Reuniclus.
