And Skarmory should get Immunity.
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Regenerator
- Thread starter Not Scicky
- Start date
Nah. What Skarmory needs is Poison Heal.
I think Skarmory can technically benefit from that, with Submersion shenanigans or something like that. Regeneration Shedinja, on the other hand...
Meinshao could utilize this ability to be a better ambipom with fake out+u-turn on a life orb set, you could even ko somethin with hi jump kick and u-turn out to get back to full.
Except Mienshao has higher attack and acces to a STAB HJK, and Ambipom only to Double Hit (105 base power with tech). Fighting has much better coverage than normal. Oh, and Meinshao also has acces to much more coverage moves. Meinshao almost completely replaced Ambipom.
Doesnt matter if Mienshao has higher attack; as I said, a Technician boosted Fake Out makes Ambipom stronger in all combinations barring Mienshao's Fake Out + Hi Jump Kick. And while powerful it's not reliable, something that is critical in the role that Ambipom/Mienshao would usually perform, that is scout/revenge killer.
I'll also stress how important the Speed difference is. 105 Speed while quick for a Fighting type misses out on some key targets; Infernape, 110s like Gengar/Espeon and even 115s such as Starmie/Azelf arguably. Targets that are faster, i.e. Jolteon, also fear Ambipom more due to its harder hitting Fake Out.
These points show that Ambipom is by no means outclassed by Mienshao.
Most people that run heavy offense or dont have anything left to take fake outs and u-turns can stall out ambipom with life orb and residual damage, but this is a lot harder to do with meinshao. While it doest have stab or technian, it has a much better survivability and can easily end up doing more damage in th long run
ok, maybe I overhyped Meinshao. I tested them both (on the same team wtf), and they both work equally good.
BUT:
| 55 | Mienshao | 2390 | 3.4259 |
| 101 | Ambipom | 977 | 1.4005 |.
another advantage of Mienshao is that it can go mixed/something else. And Regeneration of course. But when looking purely at how good they are at scouting, they are equally good IMO
Um, i generally don't build competitive non-gimmicky teams, but i've just recently built a team specialising in U-turn spamming, and Regeneration Mienshao is great!
However, i disagree with those who use Mienshao similarly to Ambipom, as frankly, Mienshao is too slow in my experience. It's not slow in the sense it can't outspeed many threats, but it's slow in the sense that it can be too easily revenge killed, being so frail. My preferred option is ScarfShao, as it can outspeed most pokemon with its Scarf, and U-turn allows you to scout very effectively as you outspeed and hence can switch to an appropriate counter to take the incoming attack.
Also, 1.5x speed HJK is nothing to laugh at, and it can run a fast HP Ice if you run some Sp.Atk EV's, which allows it to deal with dragons that would otherwise be faster than it and OHKO before Mienshao could move.
Still, Mienshao is obviously frail and thus, fast attacking will always be necessary for it to play any good role, and imo that's why Regenerator alone will do little. It's Regenerator + U-turn that allows Mienshao to shrug off weak priority attacks and hit back, while switching to something much bulkier, that makes Regenerator so good.
I guess the moral of the story is: Scarfed Mienshao > all. ;)
However, i disagree with those who use Mienshao similarly to Ambipom, as frankly, Mienshao is too slow in my experience. It's not slow in the sense it can't outspeed many threats, but it's slow in the sense that it can be too easily revenge killed, being so frail. My preferred option is ScarfShao, as it can outspeed most pokemon with its Scarf, and U-turn allows you to scout very effectively as you outspeed and hence can switch to an appropriate counter to take the incoming attack.
Also, 1.5x speed HJK is nothing to laugh at, and it can run a fast HP Ice if you run some Sp.Atk EV's, which allows it to deal with dragons that would otherwise be faster than it and OHKO before Mienshao could move.
Still, Mienshao is obviously frail and thus, fast attacking will always be necessary for it to play any good role, and imo that's why Regenerator alone will do little. It's Regenerator + U-turn that allows Mienshao to shrug off weak priority attacks and hit back, while switching to something much bulkier, that makes Regenerator so good.
I guess the moral of the story is: Scarfed Mienshao > all. ;)
Scarf's good until it's forced out. Scarf Mienshao is like candy for CM, TR, and even T-Wave Reuniclus. Reuniclus, Gliscor, Toxicroak, Slowbro, and the Genies are far too common to be using Scarf without excellent team support.
Not to mention, it's easier than you might think to end up either forcing them to switch or HJK a Ghost. Fighting types and Choice items just don't mix very well this gen.
Question: is ScarfShao not faster than Magic Guard Reuniclus, and hence can Uturn to a counter while hitting for SE damage? Unless there's a priority move I'm forgetting...?
Anyways, I thought half the point of U-turn wasn't killing the opponent per SE, but simply adding some free damage instead of switching. So regardless if those Pokemon wall Mienshao or not (and iirc they'd wall all forms of Mienshao anyways) I can just U-turn to an appropriate counter. You're right that it needs a team to U-turn to, but that's not too big a problem.
Also, Gliscor can be nailed on the switch with HP Ice assuming you run enough Sp. Atk EVs, and the scarf let's you finish it off next turn (haven't run calcs, but a 4x HP Ice should kill, no?).
If Shedinja every got another ability, I would imagine it would be keen eye, trollfreak.
Question: Does Choice Scarf still lock you into one move? Or are you playing some sort of 6th Gen I've never even heard of?
Speed doesn't matter if you're stuck using Hi Jump Kick on a Pokemon that just gets tickled by it.
And predict that Conkeldurr you're staring down is going to switch-out to Reuniclus. Watch it stay in a Bulk Up as you U-turn for peanuts.
100th post. Gotta make it about Sun. Um. Um. Ummmm...Mienshao......Mienshao...gets absolutely nothing from Sun...What a lame Pokemon. At least Ambipom gets Fire Punch.
Then don't spam Hi-Jump Kick while the opponent still has a Gliscor/Reuniclus/Jellicent/etc?
It's not like Mienshao wants to stay in on Conkeldurr in the first place...
When Conk can Mach Punch, why bother?
Without the scarf you don't hit AT ALL. There are many threats which can OHKO Mienshao or leave it in red health that are faster that it would be without the scarf. Better to do some damage with U-turn and come back later, than try to attack and watch your little Menahao die to one attack.
The simple fact is that you have to play to Mienshao's strengths and part of that is that you don't leave it in against Conkeldurr EVER. Mach Punch will OHKO most of the time. Scarf or not, you have to switch. But against things like Reuniclus, with the scarf you can outspend and hit with U-turn to deal decent damage, and switch in something to take the attack. Also, if your opponent still has a ghost, simply don't spam HJK, keep U-turning/HPing/Stone Edging instead. You'll knock a good chunk off any ghost not named Burungeru, and at worst all Burungeru can do is attack your switch in, or double switch.
Tl;dr: U-turn let's ScarfShao keep up the offensive momentum which it couldn't do without the scarf due to it's average speed. Why switch when you can U-turn instead? Any damage is better than no damage.
*stops reading*...*sighs* Please. Step into my office. We've much to discuss.
AT ALL, huh?
Mienshao isn't trolled by speed like Hydreigon. It outspeeds PLENTY. And only counters most of that if it has the ability to switch attacks. What is 339 Speed not hitting that it hits at 508 speed that makes it worth giving up a 1.3 power boost from Life Orb AND the ability to switch attacks?
I really hope you were joking about Conkeldurr OHKOing with Mach Punch, I really do. But I know you weren't. 43.7% - 51.7% with Max Attack is not a OHKO. Hell, there's only a slim chance that Conkeldurr will even 2HKO Mienshao.
Jolly Life Orb Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick does 69.7% - 82.3% to Bulk Up versions of Conkeldurr. 2HKOing it even if it Bulks Up after the first HJK. (bolded for dramatic effect)
Also, you're not doing peanuts to ANY Ghost. A NON-STAB U-TURN, which Ghosts RESIST, that's not even boosted by Life Orb due to choosing Choice Scarf over it, is not going to be that effective at wearing Mienshao's Ghost counters.
Here's the thing. You can use U-turn all you want for some NON-STAB, unboosted damage, but when you do finally use a different move, you're set-up bait and nothing more.
Scarf Mienshao is a great Scout, but it takes careful planning and a whole lot of prediction to use that extra speed to your advantage and not be completely held down by the lack of power & versatility.
If it works for your team, that's awesome but Life Orb Mienshao is just FAR easier to run on most teams.
Les see: starmie at 361 gets nailed by ScarfShao, but not LO Mienshao as Psychic means Mienshao will not want to stay in (not to mention everything else Starmie carries hurts a lot). Scarf U-turn hurts Starmie for SE damage, and that's quite painful. Also helps keep your hazards up by taking out a prominent and effective spinner.
Jolteon, Breloom (uturn is neutral, HP Ice picks off weakened ones assuming you have enough health to survive Mach Punch), Weavile, Tyranitar, Infernape, Machamp, Heatran, Togekiss, Lucario, Flygon, Jirachi.
Edit: BW that gets out sped by ScarfShao: Genesect, Cloyster, Volcarona, Victini, Shaymin, Mence, (boosted) Heracross and Kingdra, Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Shanderaa, Darmanitan, Haxorus, Metagross, Ludicolo, Scizor, Azelf, Magnezone. Also outspeeds Kyogre, Dialga, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Zekrom, Groudon, Darkrai, and these are all Ubers. All Pokemon here are beaten by ScarfShao, but NOT by any non-scarfed Mienshao, and there's a good 30 top tier OU Pokemon, along with 7 Ubers just because it can.
This is taken from Smogon's DP Speed Tier lists. There's no list yet for BW (edit: found it), but hell, I'd run scarf just to beat these threats. No, I don't OHKO many of them, but allowing me to efficiently revenge kill even +1 or some +2 speed positive speed nature variants of these pokemon is well worth the scarf lock. Plus, I only lose one turn on the switch, so I'm not setup bait, as I can switch to a counter (who gets in un-hurt due to them being to busy boosting to attack) to cripple any set up Pokemon. Secondly, even with a +1 speed Boost, even if my counter is knocked out ScarfShao still outspeeds the Pokemon listed above, even with +1 speed boost to them. So I have a great revenge killer, who isn't setup bait, and has enough speed to beat 11 well-respected Pokemon that non-scarfed Mienshao can't.
I'll admit to being wrong that Mach Punch won't OHKO (my original statement assumed that it already had a few Bulk Ups under its belt, and two Bulk Ups would double it's attack to be a OHKO about half the time, or falling just short), by that only gives me more reason to run ScarfShao, as the loss of LO still lets me KO one of the top threats of the metagame one on one.
I'll give it to you that LO Mienshao is way more splashable that ScarfShao, but unless you are Mence status (I.e. Borderline if not already Uber, which I'm pretty sure Mienshao ain't), splashable means you are good all round, but not great at anything (that's mainly why it fits so well on any team, it does anything, just not as well as a dedicated Pokemon). ScarfShao does it's job really well, and though it loses out on some damage, it definitely has more than enough benefits to make it completely viable.
So, from my viewpoint, yes, ScarfShao isn't like Mence in that you cant just splash it into any team, but it's no worse off than LO Mienshao, and brings many advantages to the table.
I'll also add a little bit here just for the hell of it. My team, as I'm sure quite a few others, need the damage from hazards to net some critical OHKOs that I couldn't otherwise. There is often a time when I just can't get my Ferrothorn in quick enough to make the hazards damage the Pokemon before they kill me. That's where my Mienshao comes in. If I can't knock some off with pointy rocks or spikes, then I let U-turn do the damage to help me net those KO's. This paragraph isn't meant as a serious argument for ScarfShao or Mienshao in general, but I find it very handy. Just an interesting bit of trivia for ya.
Jolteon, Breloom (uturn is neutral, HP Ice picks off weakened ones assuming you have enough health to survive Mach Punch), Weavile, Tyranitar, Infernape, Machamp, Heatran, Togekiss, Lucario, Flygon, Jirachi.
Edit: BW that gets out sped by ScarfShao: Genesect, Cloyster, Volcarona, Victini, Shaymin, Mence, (boosted) Heracross and Kingdra, Hydreigon, Mamoswine, Shanderaa, Darmanitan, Haxorus, Metagross, Ludicolo, Scizor, Azelf, Magnezone. Also outspeeds Kyogre, Dialga, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Zekrom, Groudon, Darkrai, and these are all Ubers. All Pokemon here are beaten by ScarfShao, but NOT by any non-scarfed Mienshao, and there's a good 30 top tier OU Pokemon, along with 7 Ubers just because it can.
This is taken from Smogon's DP Speed Tier lists. There's no list yet for BW (edit: found it), but hell, I'd run scarf just to beat these threats. No, I don't OHKO many of them, but allowing me to efficiently revenge kill even +1 or some +2 speed positive speed nature variants of these pokemon is well worth the scarf lock. Plus, I only lose one turn on the switch, so I'm not setup bait, as I can switch to a counter (who gets in un-hurt due to them being to busy boosting to attack) to cripple any set up Pokemon. Secondly, even with a +1 speed Boost, even if my counter is knocked out ScarfShao still outspeeds the Pokemon listed above, even with +1 speed boost to them. So I have a great revenge killer, who isn't setup bait, and has enough speed to beat 11 well-respected Pokemon that non-scarfed Mienshao can't.
I'll admit to being wrong that Mach Punch won't OHKO (my original statement assumed that it already had a few Bulk Ups under its belt, and two Bulk Ups would double it's attack to be a OHKO about half the time, or falling just short), by that only gives me more reason to run ScarfShao, as the loss of LO still lets me KO one of the top threats of the metagame one on one.
I'll give it to you that LO Mienshao is way more splashable that ScarfShao, but unless you are Mence status (I.e. Borderline if not already Uber, which I'm pretty sure Mienshao ain't), splashable means you are good all round, but not great at anything (that's mainly why it fits so well on any team, it does anything, just not as well as a dedicated Pokemon). ScarfShao does it's job really well, and though it loses out on some damage, it definitely has more than enough benefits to make it completely viable.
So, from my viewpoint, yes, ScarfShao isn't like Mence in that you cant just splash it into any team, but it's no worse off than LO Mienshao, and brings many advantages to the table.
I'll also add a little bit here just for the hell of it. My team, as I'm sure quite a few others, need the damage from hazards to net some critical OHKOs that I couldn't otherwise. There is often a time when I just can't get my Ferrothorn in quick enough to make the hazards damage the Pokemon before they kill me. That's where my Mienshao comes in. If I can't knock some off with pointy rocks or spikes, then I let U-turn do the damage to help me net those KO's. This paragraph isn't meant as a serious argument for ScarfShao or Mienshao in general, but I find it very handy. Just an interesting bit of trivia for ya.
tl;dr all the above comments:
LOMienshao is usually the better option, but Scarfshao can do better than LO on specific teams.
Ambipom vs Mienshao
Ambipom has higher speed, while Mienshao has higher attack and better coverage. (and no acces to Tech STAB Fake Out+Double Hit)
Now back to discussing Regeneration.
LOMienshao is usually the better option, but Scarfshao can do better than LO on specific teams.
Ambipom vs Mienshao
Ambipom has higher speed, while Mienshao has higher attack and better coverage. (and no acces to Tech STAB Fake Out+Double Hit)
Now back to discussing Regeneration.
sturdy imo.
Golduck
Cloud nine
blablabla
-Miracle Seed
-Skill Swap
Skarmory
Wide Guard
Tailwind
Blissey
Healing beam (lol useless towards shedinja
Safeguard
Shedinja
Protect
SD
Fury Cutter
Shadow Claw.
There's a vid somewhere
turn 1
blissey used protect!
Skarmory used Tailwind
Golduck used Skill Swap (Golduck now has Sturdy and Skarmory Cloud Nine)
turn 2
Player called Skarmory back
Player sent Shedinja
Blissey used Safeguard
Golduck used Worry seed
turn 3
Blissey used some move
Shedinja used Protect
Golduck used Skill Swap
there you go. Send golduck out and in to ensure no weather will be set up.
0.01% chance of succeeding though.
If anyone has the link of the vid, post it
EDIT: This thread goes too much off topic (I also caused it a little) we should talk about the ability. This kinda stuff should actually go.... nowhere really.
man this ability is awesome and works graet with the hooh brave bird comno