Lower Tiers RBY ZU Hub

Btw, is it time of tedious RefPidgeot wars ?
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!

Like i said in the above post, refrest pidgeot is what i see the most, and personally use the most. So i really like it. Although, Sand attack pidgeot is really dope.

And Pidgeot isnt ZU Snorlax, Lower tiers are more or less 90% offensive, the bulkier mons are either weak specially, or do mostly offense, refrest is used to save pidgeot, not to stall. This isnt OU. Its a mainly Offensive tier, specifically on the physical side, with not many special offensive mons. Although mons like marowak use special moves, i wouldnt say they are "Specially" offensive

Edit: As You Know Im really new to rby lower tiers, so i may be slightly off, but i belive im right overall. :)

Edit 2: WHY WERE SO MANY PEOPLE LOOKING AT THIS THREAD WHEN I POSTED IT AAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Atleast 12 people got to see how bad i am at pokemon :(
 
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gastlies

running up that hill
is a Pre-Contributor
so what's the plan for this tier after ZU olympiad. Right now there are two things that I think need to be adressed
  • Preliminary VR
  • Arbok suspect test
I assume these two are gonna happen after Olympiad ends, with the same, or a similar, list of qualified submitters/voters. However, it seems silly to make a VR for an Abrok meta if Arbok ends up banned, since the VR will immediately be innacurate, so I propose the following.
  • First do an Arbok suspect test. A huge chunk of the playerbase has expressed disdain for this mon, and I think most people want to suspect it. This doesn't mean Arbok will nessecarily be banned, but I feel like we should let it come down to a vote.
  • If Arbok Remains Legal: Immediate VR
  • If Abrok Is Banned: Wait on the VR until the next tour (LTC? Slam?) so we can make a more accurate VR on the post-abrok meta.
Obviously this is just my opinion so if anyone else has different thoughts I'd like to hear it

Personally I don't think Arbok is broken. Do I hate it? Yes. Do I think it's annoying? Yes, but I'm not convinced that its banworthy. First of all, Pidgeot and Primeape are two amazing mons that are on every (good) team so u already have two mons that outspeed Bok. You could Argue that Arbok forces you to save these mons for lategame to check Bok, but the thing is Parasect already forces u to not send out these mons early, since if you kill something with pidge or ape early game you get revenge-slept by sect, so this isn't a problem exclusive to Arbok. Quick Attack is also pretty prevalent which can chip Bok. Also, Wrap can miss, so it's really hard to chip down a Sandslash or something like that.
 
Arbok, in my opinion, is not directly mega OP broken, but what this thing does to the builder and the way people play out games is disgusting to me. It warps the builder to a truly insane degree, forcing 2 or 3 fast mons on every team, and these fast mons (outside of Pidgeot) are very flawed and exploitable. Primaepe outspeeds it but can only meaningfully threaten it with Body Slam paralysis, a move it frankly doesn't want to run outside of the Arbok matchup, and is threatened back with Glare, which completely cripples Primaepe if it lands, Primaepe can't even Hyper Beam it safely due to the horrendous simulator glitch (that has been known for over half a year yet still hasn't been patched) where the opponent cannot recharge while being wrapped, which means they cannot switch or attack at all unless the wrapper misses. To focus on Primaepe specifically, some people hold this mon in such high regards, yet in my opinion, if Arbok didn't exist, this mon would simply be mediocre; its fast sure, but its damage output is frankly bad and it's also frail, Arbok forces this mon to be ran on most teams because it outspeeds it.
What it does to the way people play is that it forces people to conserve their Pidgeot and their Primaepe until the very end of the game just to even attempt to beat it consistently, they can't even due it safely since Primaepe Hyper Beam + Pidgeot Hyper Beam does a minimum of 98%, compounded with the Hyper Beam glitch which means that Hyper Beaming into a healthy Arbok is a death sentence makes this type of play (one of the only types of solid counterplay to Arbok outside of the fucking Arbok mirror) awful to see. I think, vs any semi-competent player, the Arbok ditto is unavoidable 8/10 times.
To short summarise that rant: Fast mons are in short supply and most of them are exploitable in some form, players are forced to keep their fast mons healthy into the late game just to deal with Arbok and these fast mons usually have utility elsewhere in the game they simply can't use to full effectiveness because of that fucking snake. The Arbok ditto is inevitable in most games. These fast mons are also not even that good into Arbok LMAO; Arbok vs Body Slam Primaepe is very skewed in Arboks favor and if Primaepe decides to Hyper Beam it's an almost certain death sentence for it. Pidgeot can't always 2HKO Arbok with Double Edge > Hyper Bsam and the same point as Primaepe when it comes to Hyper Beaming a healthy Arbok. Ponyta gets 2HKOed by Arbok Earthquake while it only 3HKOes in return with 85% accurate Fire Blast, this mons Arbok matchup is pretty ass with all due respects. Abra and Poliwag are actual dogshit and I'm not going to discuss them, waste of breath.
 
Forgot to mention this in the original post, but at the end of the day, we do not have to be "fair and impartial" when it comes to an Arbok suspect. If people think its unfun to play against, ban it! Who gives two shits if its not technically broken by its lonesome.
 

Sabelette

from the river to the sea
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I’ve talked to phoopes about formalizing plans for a RBY ZU council and tiering action including a VR. With luck this can be done immediately after the ongoing tours conclude, but don’t quote me on that unless phoopes says something. I personally don’t think that an Arbok ban should prevent a VR given that any VR right now is highly preliminary and just to give new players some grounding.

My own view is ban the snake, it’s so warping in builder and it’s so absurdly luck-based in-game that I think it’s just not competitive - missing your first wrap or glare can make it a complete unmon and I don’t think other coinflip mons like Poliwag can do nearly as much damage. I’m down to unban Arbok later assuming some drops come down from PU in the long term but right now it clearly warps the game.
 
Chat Ik my opinion doesnt matter, but personally i dont find arbok like, bannable, rather just annoying. its annoying, but u can work around it. Sure it limits us and has few mus to kill it, but as someone who never uses arbok, i dont think its that bad. I actually understand the people saying ban it tho. it messes up the builder. Lead arbok isnt that bad to play against, but backing arbok is so annoying, and it SHOULD be banned.

Beating Arbok is mostly luck based yes. Should it be banned? yes! but would i personally ban it? no.

Do i ever use the snake? No. So ig my opinion is more pointless than it normally is lol. Anyways ittl probably be banned. If it is ill be the least affected. Except other pt will prolly be better lol.
 
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Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
I'd say the fundamental issue with Arbok is that it both warps, or should I say, wraps, the meta while having its main counterplay being RNG.

Everyone has talked about this before, but we have very little that outspeeds Arbok. While Pidgeot would probably be used on every team regardless, players are forced to put Primeape, Ponyta, and sometimes even Abra just to have a consistent Arbok mu. And while these Pokemon don't have terrible Arbok mus, they aren't great for Pokemon meant to actually deal with Arbok. Pidgeot can't OHKO Arbok without a crit Hyper Beam, while Primeape is forced to choose between doing 43-50% with Hyper Beam or do no damage with Body Slam to pray for paralysis. Ponyta, meanwhile, only 3HKOes Arbok with Fire Blast and relies on burns to actually deal with it. Thus, Arbok has high odds to tank whatever is thrown at it and just Glare and Wrap its foe to death, or even 2HKO Ponyta. Arbok generally shouldn't face these foes, but even if it does it has high odds to outright win against its "checks". And these Pokemon are exploitable too. Pidgeot and especially Primeape tend to lose or trade with physically bulky Pokemon like Sandslash and Weezing, and the latter especially has a terrible Parasect mu. Their use early-game is often limited, while Arbok tends to have no such problems since it just Wraps out of terrible matchups. Ponyta meanwhile thuds into Flareon and the rarer Tentacool, and has to rely on its own partial trapping move to escape. Arbok has an easy time escaping these Pokemon, especially since they'll often switch in while using Wrap, so Arbok can often get its teammate in safely. The opposing player can double, but these tend to be predictable, and Arbok can often Wrap for a few turns before committing to a switch.

Then we get to probably the best answer to Arbok, Abra. It can't even OHKO Arbok without a crit Psychic, but it can paralyze Arbok and essentially ruin it. But brings up another issue. While it isn't terrible for a great Pokemon to make otherwise unviable ones usable, like how Pidgeot probably single-handedly makes Rock-types worth considering, Abra cannot switch into Arbok at all. This is our best answer to Arbok, something that generally trades one for one, cannot switch in, and is terrible otherwise. While there are some more Pokemon that outspeed Arbok, like Poliwag, Pikachu, and Voltorb, the former is very fringe and not very good, and the latter two are totally unviable. While the duo can paralyze Arbok, if we end up relying on them to handle Arbok then it's proof it's way too much.

Now feeding into my next point, we get into the next way we handle Arbok, praying. Wrap only has ~85% accuracy, and Glare ~75%, which is very inconsistent. Everyone who's played enough RBY ZU has games where Arbok missed twice and died. But everyone has also had a game where Arbok went beast mode and wobbled the opposing team to death. Arbok is consistent enough to where you can rely on it to win games, and when it works, it works way too well. It isn't optimal for Arbok to try Wrapping a Sandslash from full to death, but there are plenty of gamestates where it is Arbok's best option, and both players are forced to bet everything on RNG. And there have been plenty of games where Arbok beat Sandslash one-on-one, and often went on to do even more.

There's also Arbok's pretty good movepool beyond Glare and Wrap. Hyper Beam, Earthquake, and Rock Slide make it quite threatening even without Wrap, and their use as finishers make Arbok getting its foes into KO range extremely easy. If people start using Rock-types to beat Wrap, it'll just start slotting in Mega Drain.

There is the option of PP stalling Wrap, but with Wrap's 32 PP this is very hard to do. While Arbok spreads damage it can switch out at any time, so opponents are forced to reveal their team early-game or risk being predictable, and late-game the Arbok still has a good chance to read a switch for game. From my experience, PP stalling Wrap tends to only work in very specific end-games.

Overall, Arbok is just too good and needs to be banned. It can fail thanks to RNG, but having odds to 1v1 every Pokemon slower than it, and reasonable odds to beat those faster than it, makes it way too much for ZU.
 
this may sound a bit extreme, but maybe ban pt? the second arbok is gone stuff like ponyta, onix, and flareon will probably go up in usage and viability. Banning pt does nerf these mons, but like they are mons being used anyways. A few people use flareon, (Im one of them i love him) but i dont see many pony users. (Sorry Torkon for considering nerfing onix)
 
this may sound a bit extreme, but maybe ban pt? the second arbok is gone stuff like ponyta, and flareon will probably go up in usage and viability. Banning pt does nerf these mons, but like they are mons being used anyways. A few people use flareon, (Im one of them i love him) but i dont see many pony users.
The thing is, PT is not the issue, Arbok is, Onix is not broken with Bind, Tent is not broken with Wrap, Ponyta is not broken with Fire Spin; its just Arbok
 

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
this may sound a bit extreme, but maybe ban pt? the second arbok is gone stuff like ponyta, and flareon will probably go up in usage and viability. Banning pt does nerf these mons, but like they are mons being used anyways. A few people use flareon, (Im one of them i love him) but i dont see many pony users.
The issue with a blanket pt ban is that it's Arbok that's the problem, not the mechanic as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I think Gen 1 Partial-Trapping is among the worst things ever to be implemented in Pokemon, but it's Arboks's Speed, offensive movepool, and Glare which make it so overwhelming. Ponyta and Tentacool are perfectly fine, and Flareon often doesn't even use its pt move despite having it.
 
but it's Arboks's Speed, offensive movepool, and Glare which make it so overwhelming.
I get that, but without the pt, It would not be able to wrap you to death, while there are other issues, they are more manageable. and this may sound stupid, but for fire types, couldnt burn/pt make it to where you cant punish as much? Ik that doesnt = ban in the slightest, but like. Im trynna come up with a case with arbok staying, even tho i think it should be banned.
 
I get that, but without the pt, It would not be able to wrap you to death, while there are other issues, they are more manageable. and this may sound stupid, but for fire types, couldnt burn/pt make it to where you cant punish as much?
Why should we though, Smogons banning principle is to ban the mon before the move, even for things like Last Respects, which made Houndstone broken at launch, Houndstone was banned, not Last Respects. I'm sure level 80 Mewtwo is ok in OU, or Lapras without Blizzard is ok in UU, but we don't do that for obvious reasons
 

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
I get that, but without the pt, It would not be able to wrap you to death, while there are other issues, they are more manageable. and this may sound stupid, but for fire types, couldnt burn/pt make it to where you cant punish as much? Ik that doesnt = ban in the slightest, but like. Im trynna come up with a case with arbok staying, even tho i think it should be banned.
Thing is that's just not how Smogon bans things, moves are only banned when it's clear the move is the only thing at fault, and there are multiple users that are broken because of it. It's a shame too, as a Wrapless Arbok would be pretty interesting even if it wouldn't be very good.
 
Well explain that to the ADV council who still refuse to ban Ninkask but rather prefer to suspect Agility + Baton Pass. :psyangry:

End of digression, I would lean towards an Arbok ban. Regarding partial trapping moves, I think it is a bit like the Baton Pass issue, I prefer to punish the abusers rather than banning the move entirely* since it can be used for pivoting and is an interesting tool for many mons (Cloyster, Moltres, Tentacruel, Victreebel etc...)

*That's why I'm still pissed off with sleep ban in SV instead of only banning Darkrai :changry:
 
a Wrapless Arbok would be pretty interesting even if it wouldn't be very good.
This made me think abt wrap rather than pt. If we ban wrap, only four pokemon are affected, Dratini, Licki, Tenta, and weepin. Licki Doesnt Use it, but it still affects these mons.

Ban the Kobra, i get it, and i actually agree with smogons way of doing smth for once.

But One thing i will say is that it opens up a power vacuum. w/ out arbok eventually another mon will show up to be in its spot. Although it might not be until the next PU Vr in which well probably suspect arbok again anyways if there are any major changes. :/
 

Gangsta Spongebob

"Mama I'm a Criminal" - Badass Smoking Caterpillar
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
This made me think abt wrap rather than pt. If we ban wrap, only four pokemon are affected, Dratini, Licki, Tenta, and weepin. Licki Doesnt Use it, but it still affects these mons.

Ban the Kobra, i get it, and i actually agree with smogons way of doing smth for once.

But One thing i will say is that it opens up a power vacuum. w/ out arbok eventually another mon will show up to be in its spot. Although it might not be until the next PU Vr in which well probably suspect arbok again anyways if there are any major changes. :/
Banning Arbok probably won't make anything broken on its own. It doesn't hold back anything in particular when it tends to steamroll everything slower than it. An Arbok ban would make everything slower than it a good deal better and everything faster than it worse, which will likely lead to a healthier meta and a bit less Pidgeot dominance. Arbok not pivoting all over Sandslash would likely make it a bit harder to handle, but Arbok shouldn't be a team's answer to Sandslash anyways.
 
I want to share my perspectives about Arbok as a newbie. I agree with "Abork is not broken" when "broken" is used to say "really strong", but in my opinion, Arbok is broken in the sense of "i don't know if my plan will work" i lost a few games to Abork wrapcaos, and i won some games by warpcaso. When you lose to a Pidgeot/Primeape you can say "Ok, I lost when I did X and I get to Y, I can try Z next time" and you learn about, but when you lose to PT is more "Ok, I lost when I did X and I get to Y, MAYBE i can try Z next time" and you can try next time, you can win, but there is still a chance of losing by a fullpara, been placed in a bad switch, or something. You can deal Arbok with Bird, Monky or even Flareon QA has quoted, but i never feel really safe when I’m dealing with Arbok. And i know, everything has a little RNG in Pokémon, and I'm okay with that, but for me Arbok is to much RNG, both to use and to handle.
My opinion may not be so relevant in the macro by a lack of experience, but I think that a newbie/casual player perspectives is minimally important.
 
all of you already know why arbok is broken and why it needs to be banned. Its impact on team building has been covered, its impact on the game state has been covered, and the only reason it hasn't been completely banned yet is because zu has been oddly unstable since arbok's arrival. I'll just adress what I believe has been said far less than the main points other people have been making. I've also seen these same points touched on multiple times, so dont expect anything other than conformation bias from this, but I think this form of conformation bias is healthy considering the state that the tier is in at the hands of arbok.

I do believe that the banning of pt is just an ok response to arbok's power, but ends up nullifying a lot of the tier's other mons for very little reward. I do still believe the tier is young enough to hold onto the mentality of "ban the broken abusers first not the substance" I won't say that banning pt is off the table, but I do believe that banning pt would be ineffective at this point in the tier's life and become a breach of many staple concepts in tiering policy as a whole. I do believe that looking back at tiering policy with questions is a good idea, but this is a pretty strong fundamental idea that shouldn't be broken with our current ideas of how a healthy meta is maintained.

The power vaccum arguement has been such an over exaggeration at this point that I don't know why it's even still used, but I'd coutner it with one simple idea. That this tier has gone through an abnormally large amount of changes by RBYs standard since its inception. From the time when it was merely the result of 3 people loosely voting on a VR to it's actual inception to the time when a bunch of mons which shouldn't have been down here ended up down here because for some reason one person made a VR that everyone agreed with but had very little basis in actual game play because nobody played the tier above. Through all of these different variations arbok has remained a pretty consistent common denominator for the tier's instability. So I find the problem of the power vacuum to be both an exaggeration and simultaneously non-existent in RBY ZU.

I will say that the argument of RNG is somewhat ineffective, as almost anyone who has played RBY for any amount of time understands that RBY makes no play truly safe due to the massive amount of RNG the matches are baked in. As much as I'd advocate for a new way of thinking that has risen over the past few years as we see new players coming to the scene, I'd also like to say that this fundimental idea is here to stay. With that in mind, the idea of "theres nothing i could have done better" definitely does come up more often in games with arbok far more often than in other tiers I'd say, due to just how oppressive it is to both its counters and checks. This could be a component on why a large majority of players don't enjoy the tier at all, because they're far more likely to lose due to luck. Yet again this is wrapped up in broken vs not fun discussions, the nature of tiering, why we ban mons and all other forms of discussion which aren't set and stone and can't be so I'll just sum it up with while arbok isn't alone in being the reasons RBY games come down to RNG, it definitely increases the feeling of games coming down to RNG.

I'd say it's almost a waste to go on this far about Arbok because talking about it isn't necessary. if you're this far into the forum then you more then likely already have your mind made up on the topic and know how bad this mon is for the meta. The only reason this thing wasn't taken out in summer of 22 was because the tier was brand spanking new and arbok has stood on the line between broken and really good, and only now have we truly gotten the ball rolling on this mon. While I can't vote, I would suggest that all of you vote ban on Arbok, and put to rest the mon that has been weaving in and out of being banned for the past 2 years.
 

gastlies

running up that hill
is a Pre-Contributor
:rb/Machamp: TIERING UPDATE!!! :y/Machamp:
The PU and ZU councils have collaborated in order to make an emergency tiering update. Machamp has been struggling in PU for quite a while, with many top PU players considering it to be completely unviable. It is currently the lowest-ranked PU mon on the VR, and does basically nothing good in the tier. In a similar note, ZU has been struggling recently due to Arbok, and the ZU council believes that Machamp would be a good bulky Pokemon to stabilize the tier, with a strong Earthquake to help neutralize the snake. Thus, since Machamp is terrible in PU, and we believe that it will have a positive impact on the ZU metagame, both the PU and ZU councils have unanimously voted on dropping Machamp to ZU, effective immediately.
 

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