Hipmonlee
Have a nice day
There is a specific case where the RBY community has understood that PS has had a buggy counter implementation for a while. However, while investigating this Enigami has discovered that the correct implementation actually causes a desync.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-research-thread.3506992/page-8#post-8342135
The scenario is this:
Player 1 has a paralysed pokemon up against Player 2's pokemon with Counter.
On turn 1 Player 1 uses a counterable move while Player 2 uses some move other than Counter.
On the following turn, Player 2 selects Counter and Player 1 FPs.
On Showdown, then no matter what move Player 1 selected Counter will succeed.
However, on the cart, if Player 1 selected a non Counterable move then Player 1's Cart would consider Counter to have failed. But Player 2's Cart has no information about what move was selected (or at least failed to record what move was selected), and will consider Counter to have succeeded (because the last used move that it has recorded is counterable). This causes a desync.
Here's a replay of me attempting to recreate this on Showdown.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1047692234 - Jump to turn 20 (or watch the whole thing if you want to see me being an idiot).
This is abused in battles, I have definitely seen Nails KO an enemy Chansey by repeatedly Countering a Seismic Toss while it FPs (you often only need consecutive FPs to take out a Chansey).
Note: this is confirmed to occur for Paralysis and the turn ending. It presumably also happens in the case of Freeze, Sleep, Confusion, Flinch, or anything else that can cause a move to not occur. However, in the case of Sleep and Freeze, if the Pokemon is already Frozen or Sleeping, they do not select a move at all. This would only happen on the turn the Pokemon is put to Sleep or Frozen.
So what should be done with Counter?
I think we have 5 reasonable responses at this point:
1. Ban Counter
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-research-thread.3506992/page-8#post-8342135
The scenario is this:
Player 1 has a paralysed pokemon up against Player 2's pokemon with Counter.
On turn 1 Player 1 uses a counterable move while Player 2 uses some move other than Counter.
On the following turn, Player 2 selects Counter and Player 1 FPs.
On Showdown, then no matter what move Player 1 selected Counter will succeed.
However, on the cart, if Player 1 selected a non Counterable move then Player 1's Cart would consider Counter to have failed. But Player 2's Cart has no information about what move was selected (or at least failed to record what move was selected), and will consider Counter to have succeeded (because the last used move that it has recorded is counterable). This causes a desync.
Here's a replay of me attempting to recreate this on Showdown.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1047692234 - Jump to turn 20 (or watch the whole thing if you want to see me being an idiot).
This is abused in battles, I have definitely seen Nails KO an enemy Chansey by repeatedly Countering a Seismic Toss while it FPs (you often only need consecutive FPs to take out a Chansey).
Note: this is confirmed to occur for Paralysis and the turn ending. It presumably also happens in the case of Freeze, Sleep, Confusion, Flinch, or anything else that can cause a move to not occur. However, in the case of Sleep and Freeze, if the Pokemon is already Frozen or Sleeping, they do not select a move at all. This would only happen on the turn the Pokemon is put to Sleep or Frozen.
So what should be done with Counter?
I think we have 5 reasonable responses at this point:
1. Ban Counter
- This is the only true to cart option we have. I don't like this idea.
- Counter would fail if the move selected was uncounterable.
- Note this will also create a scenario where if Player 1 were to use a non Counterable move the first turn, and a Counterable move the second turn as it FPs, then Counter could succeed if the last damage dealt (by either player) was non 0.
- This preserves the "spirit" of Counter, so that if you correctly predict your opponent to use a normal or fighting move your Counter has the potential to succeed, even if your opponent is Fully Paralyzed. Likewise you can't get an easy KO by just waiting for your opponent to FP the turn after using a Counterable attack.
- This is closest to the current implementation of Counter.
- This means that players have a little more certainty about when their Counter's will succeed. For instance if Player 1's Pokemon faints before attacking and then Player 1 sends out a sleeping Pokemon, Player 2 would know for certain whether Counter will succeed or not on the following turn despite not having seen the move Player 1 selected.
- This is the closest to the Cart, while still allowing Counter.
- Doesnt have the arbitrariness of options 2 and 3.
- It could be quite confusing, where sometimes Countering against a paralyzed Pokemon would succeed and sometimes it would fail.
- Similar to the last option, but more consistent.
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