by this logic whirlipede can't be bad in RU since molk got to #1 with it multiple timesAlso, he got to #1 with Lumineon so it can't be that bad *shrug*
Agree that the logic is flimsy but Lumineon isn't weak to rock and can take one electric hit, which is important because I often want a slower u-turn on scarf raichu and it allows me to switch into golem without taking SR + SE stone edgeby this logic whirlipede can't be bad in RU since molk got to #1 with it multiple times
it isn't weak to rock, but carracosta and golem can 2hko it, so i don't see why this is a big deal since it can't switch into them and the other defoggers . it's also ohkoed by lo raichu, which is a much better and more common set. the only thing lumineon has that other defoggers don't is both a water immunity and u-turn in the same slot, but this is such a tiny niche that isn't worth the huge loss in bulk, the lack of recovery, or the fact that it's a defogger that is so vunerable to spikes. i don't mean to derail this thread, but there really isn't much of any reason to use lumineon in PU when we have Mantine, Pelipper, Swanna, and Prinplup.Agree that the logic is flimsy but Lumineon isn't weak to rock and can take one electric hit, which is important because I often want a slower u-turn on scarf raichu and it allows me to switch into golem without taking SR + SE stone edge
The only one that would fit the niche trying to be filled is Pelipper, I'll leave it up to Bippy to see if he wants to switch it out for a similar set on Pelipper otherwise Lumineon isn't a terrible Pokemon. Its pretty decent and fits in pretty well on the team.it isn't weak to rock, but carracosta and golem can 2hko it, so i don't see why this is a big deal since it can't switch into them and the other defoggers . it's also ohkoed by lo raichu, which is a much better and more common set. the only thing lumineon has that other defoggers don't is both a water immunity and u-turn in the same slot, but this is such a tiny niche that isn't worth the huge loss in bulk, the lack of recovery, or the fact that it's a defogger that is so vunerable to spikes. i don't mean to derail this thread, but there really isn't much of any reason to use lumineon in PU when we have Mantine, Pelipper, Swanna, and Prinplup.
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKOit isn't weak to rock, but carracosta and golem can 2hko it, so i don't see why this is a big deal since it can't switch into them and the other defoggers . it's also ohkoed by lo raichu, which is a much better and more common set. the only thing lumineon has that other defoggers don't is both a water immunity and u-turn in the same slot, but this is such a tiny niche that isn't worth the huge loss in bulk, the lack of recovery, or the fact that it's a defogger that is so vunerable to spikes. i don't mean to derail this thread, but there really isn't much of any reason to use lumineon in PU when we have Mantine, Pelipper, Swanna, and Prinplup.
edit @ below: yes and pelipper also fits that niche while being much better in general
except pelipper can run enough evs to outspeed adamant 45s and still be bulkier than lumineon?252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Golem Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Golem Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 248-296 (76.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 222-264 (64.9 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 248-294 (76.7 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raichu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 260-308 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Raichu Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 204-240 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Raichu Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 472-564 (146.1 - 174.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lumineon: 242-288 (70.7 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 568-672 (175.8 - 208%) -- guaranteed OHKO
These are the calcs that I had in mind when choosing Lumineon. It can switch into Golem and Marowak after rocks to scald/defog/u-turn and also is faster than Golem and Marowak, something which Pelipper cannot do without sacrificing a large amount of defensive investment. The ability to potentially U-turn out on a scarf raichu or Zebstrika (and I'm seeing a lot of scarf raichu whether or not LO is better) and still save Lumineon for death fodder is very useful. I don't want a mon that keeps roosting and walling opponents consistently, I want to remove hazards while still keeping up volt/turn pressure, which Pelipper doesn't do against three of the most common mons in the tier. Pelipper is good, but on balance, not fast paced offensive teams, and tailwind has actually seen decent use on Lumineon as well, giving it another advantage over Pelipper.
I get that you dislike Lumineon, but ignoring my arguments for using it won't end this debate any faster. Whether or not scarf raichu or zebstrika are good sets is irrelevant, they're common and that's what matters. An uninvested Pelipper doesn't hit very hard, so that argument doesn't just apply to Lumineon. Lumineon can switch into Marowak and Golem after rocks, Pelipper can't. However, your biggest argument for Pelipper seems to be survivability. If you understand that Pelipper limits the team to being more defensive in the CCAT, why don't you understand here? Lumineon doesn't need to live a lot of hits, it needs to keep rocks off of the field which typically means one defog per match, and it usually gets to defog on something like Avalugg that can't touch it anyway. Pelipper having roost and extra bulk is meaningless, Lumineon has enough bulk to do exactly what I need it to do. I don't care that Pelipper beats things that Lumineon doesn't, this isn't a stall or balance team. The only defoggers with U-turn to keep momentum are Pelipper, Lumineon, and Vibrava. Vibrava is shit and Pelipper doesn't switch into Golem after rocks. That was my entire basis for choosing Lumineon. At the very least, just be smugly content in the fact that I'm running an "inferior choice" rather than continuing to critique the team.except pelipper can run enough evs to outspeed adamant 45s and still be bulkier than lumineon?
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Pelipper: 161-191 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lumineon: 177-211 (51.7 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
even if it wasn't bulkier, it still has much more survivability thanks to roost, and isn't worn down stupidly easily by tspikes like lumineon is. also scarf raichu and zebstrika aren't good sets, regardless of how "common" they are, and they almost OHKO you anyway, so this is only useful if you're at full health, and even then you can't switch in on anything later in the game anyway, making it a terrible tradeoff for all of the things that pelipper beats that lumineon doesn't. also i don't see how lumineon could possibly be useful on fast paced offensive teams when swanna exists and it's just so absurdly weak: 0 SpA Lumineon Scald vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Bouffalant: 67-79 (17.9 - 21.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
i'm sorry, but i still see absolutely no reason to ever consider lumineon over the plethora of other defoggers in the tier.
also Montsegur my sun team is not only viable in oras but it's actually better than in xy because carbink can run magic coat now, so you should put it in the oras teams section imo, at least after we ban the megas (also pls change the name to Good Day Sunshine, which is its actual name @_@)
there weren't any animated rotom-f ones, and the non-animated images kept breaking ;_;Added in mag's team, others may post their sample teams if they wish.
Also nice rotom sprite noob