Research Pokemon that lost their moves

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
Dodrio won't be in SV until the DLC and Helping Hand was retroactively turned into a near-universal TM in Gen IX like Headbutt was in Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee
Oh, you're right. I saw it was in ScVi but didn't notice it's a DLC species.

Still, my overall point stands - Baton Pass feels very much like the sort of move Swellow and Fearow and Dodrio should have gotten by breeding before now. We'll see if they get it in future, though!
 

Death Phenomeno

I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hitmonchan is a sad case. His purification move, Helping Hand, was actually not a new move for the species, it was a way for Tyrogue to get an unavailable Egg Move, like Fissure Snorlax or Heat Wave Magcargo. But unlike those other two examples, Hitmonchan didn't get anything new, as his other 3 moves are 2 level-up moves and another (available) Egg Move. Hell, Tyrogue getting Helping Hand on gen4 as a starting move was more of an FU moment for Hitmonchan than anything else.
 
Then there's the really janky stuff: Electabuzz, Magmar, and Mr Mime never got Follow Me back (doubt any of them missed it),
[/spoiler]
I'm particularry intrigued that this is the reason GF added Mark feature for competition eligibilty and as for recently, HOME altering the movesets for every 'mon entering your crib; Sejun Park's Magmar in VGC 2013 knows Follow Me, which would be very hard to obtain for average player and I think GF think it's unfair.
 
I'm particularry intrigued that this is the reason GF added Mark feature for competition eligibilty and as for recently, HOME altering the movesets for every 'mon entering your crib; Sejun Park's Magmar in VGC 2013 knows Follow Me, which would be very hard to obtain for average player and I think GF think it's unfair.
Ultimately, the entire premise of "generational lock" and then "battle ready marks" that wipe off the moveset was basically to not give unfair advantage to people able to obtain time limited Pokemon.
Them adding Ability Patches last generation was also probably in that direction, because certain legendary HAs have also been event-locked, however these have been legal over the years (last I can think was Multiscale Lugia in gen 7 iirc).
On top of also being why Mythicals are never allowed in VGC/BSS (outside of meme/irrelevant formats like last one of gen 8): they are (almost) all event-locked and often require to phisically be at the event to get them. Many mythicals are actually awful competitively, very few are actually gamebreakingly strong (cough cough Magearna), so it's highly unlikely it's ever been for "balance reasons" as some would want to believe.

It's also why Walking Wake and Iron Leaves were the only non-mythical non-restricted Pokemon not allowed at Worlds: they're indeed event-only and if you missed the 2 raid weekends when they were available, you cannot get them anymore. Though will likely be normally available somewhere in the DLCs and should be allowed by then.
Iirc they did a similar thing in gen 8 with Gigamax pokemon, where they were not allowed (despite actually being catchable in game with a 1% spawn rate or so) until events were made that made super easy to get one, and Gigamax soup was introduced on top of it.
 
Ultimately, the entire premise of "generational lock" and then "battle ready marks" that wipe off the moveset was basically to not give unfair advantage to people able to obtain time limited Pokemon.
Them adding Ability Patches last generation was also probably in that direction, because certain legendary HAs have also been event-locked, however these have been legal over the years (last I can think was Multiscale Lugia in gen 7 iirc).
On top of also being why Mythicals are never allowed in VGC/BSS (outside of meme/irrelevant formats like last one of gen 8): they are (almost) all event-locked and often require to phisically be at the event to get them. Many mythicals are actually awful competitively, very few are actually gamebreakingly strong (cough cough Magearna), so it's highly unlikely it's ever been for "balance reasons" as some would want to believe.

It's also why Walking Wake and Iron Leaves were the only non-mythical non-restricted Pokemon not allowed at Worlds: they're indeed event-only and if you missed the 2 raid weekends when they were available, you cannot get them anymore. Though will likely be normally available somewhere in the DLCs and should be allowed by then.
Iirc they did a similar thing in gen 8 with Gigamax pokemon, where they were not allowed (despite actually being catchable in game with a 1% spawn rate or so) until events were made that made super easy to get one, and Gigamax soup was introduced on top of it.
On the mythicals, my only issue with the line of thinking by TPC (not on your part, that's a reasonable line of logic) is that they continue to do this even with Mythicals that were "De-mythicaled" in games old or recent (Deoxys in ORAS was still barred from Gen 6 and 7 VGC to my knowledge), precedent pending the Sinnoh Mythicals for Gen 9 after LA made them "normally" available, with Shaymin also confirmed to be in the SV DLC directly. At that point it feels a bit arbitrary on the Mythical Label even though they then lose the definitive aspect of that label (i.e. being "in-person/time-limited event" only)
 
On the mythicals, my only issue with the line of thinking by TPC (not on your part, that's a reasonable line of logic) is that they continue to do this even with Mythicals that were "De-mythicaled" in games old or recent (Deoxys in ORAS was still barred from Gen 6 and 7 VGC to my knowledge), precedent pending the Sinnoh Mythicals for Gen 9 after LA made them "normally" available, with Shaymin also confirmed to be in the SV DLC directly. At that point it feels a bit arbitrary on the Mythical Label even though they then lose the definitive aspect of that label (i.e. being "in-person/time-limited event" only)
If I had to guess, they just want it consistent rather than making exemptions for the, well, exemptions they make.
No need to make a Mythical around for only a season only to then tuck it away possibly forever again (even if they could easily use that for extra marketing)
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
I'm particularry intrigued that this is the reason GF added Mark feature for competition eligibilty and as for recently, HOME altering the movesets for every 'mon entering your crib; Sejun Park's Magmar in VGC 2013 knows Follow Me, which would be very hard to obtain for average player and I think GF think it's unfair.
Ultimately, the entire premise of "generational lock" and then "battle ready marks" that wipe off the moveset was basically to not give unfair advantage to people able to obtain time limited Pokemon.
Them adding Ability Patches last generation was also probably in that direction, because certain legendary HAs have also been event-locked, however these have been legal over the years (last I can think was Multiscale Lugia in gen 7 iirc).
On top of also being why Mythicals are never allowed in VGC/BSS (outside of meme/irrelevant formats like last one of gen 8): they are (almost) all event-locked and often require to phisically be at the event to get them. Many mythicals are actually awful competitively, very few are actually gamebreakingly strong (cough cough Magearna), so it's highly unlikely it's ever been for "balance reasons" as some would want to believe.

It's also why Walking Wake and Iron Leaves were the only non-mythical non-restricted Pokemon not allowed at Worlds: they're indeed event-only and if you missed the 2 raid weekends when they were available, you cannot get them anymore. Though will likely be normally available somewhere in the DLCs and should be allowed by then.
Iirc they did a similar thing in gen 8 with Gigamax pokemon, where they were not allowed (despite actually being catchable in game with a 1% spawn rate or so) until events were made that made super easy to get one, and Gigamax soup was introduced on top of it.
See I think there's a midpoint to be found here

So: I love event moves/exclusive moves of this nature. It's one of the things I enjoy most about collecting Pokemon and I think it's one of the more fun aspects of the earlier games, adding an element of strategy when you consider that some Pokemon sacrifice specific egg moves or abilities for the chance to add a potentially game-changing move to their arsenal. Bagon can't have Wish alongside Dragon Dance, Mewtwo can't have Hurricane and Selfdestruct on the same set, etc.

And yes, it's obviously frustrating to players who didn't manage to get those earlier moves. But in isolation it's not the biggest issue, when it's just one move here and there.

HOWEVER, and here's the nuance: I think that these sort of moves have to have a time limit, so to speak. Prior to marks being a thing, in Gen IV it was entirely plausible and realistic for someone to have XD Pokemon (to the point that people often showed them off in collections, they popped up a lot as trade fodder, and articles on this website and places like Serebii's PotW routinely mentioned XD moves as options). However, by the time Gen V rolled around it became much less likely you would. And those games threw in hidden abilities as another factor, which put a further variable into the strategy pot (want to run Heal Bell on Dragonite? Well then no Multiscale for you).

And so, of course someone might want to use their obscure Sing Marowak or Follow Me Magmar or Selfdestruct Mewtwo as a fun option in a tournament. But GF rightly see this as ever so slightly unfair so they ban it.

So why not balance the scales a bit? If you're going to ban Follow Me Magmar because it wasn't obtained in Gen VI, then make the move available to Magmar in Gen VI natively. Then there's no issue! My Softboiled Clefable is still a collector's item but some ten year-old from Japan still gets to use it in a tournament if they so wish.

And really, three generations is absolutely enough time for GF to say "okay, this has been event-exclusive or just plain hard-to-get long enough, you get it normally now." There are numerous examples of this happening:
  • Rayquaza, Keldeo, Victini, and Meloetta all get their respective special moves as starting moves in SwSh

  • Draco Meteor is a TM in ScVi, with no happiness requirement in SwSh

  • Volt Tackle can be tutored now instead of only being accessible via breeding

  • Formerly needing the Zygarde Cube to learn them, Zygarde now gets Core Enforcer, Thousand Arrows, and Thousand Waves as starting moves, while Dragon Dance has become a TM (still no Extremespeed, though)

  • Speaking of Extremespeed, Dragonite now also gets Extremespeed as a starting move (this one's complicated - it only gets Extremespeed as an egg move from itself, but the only Dratini that knows Extremespeed is a gift in HGSS, meaning that there was a period of time in Gen VI and VII where no-one could use Extremespeed Dragonite until Pokebank compatibility dropped, since Kalos- and Alola-caught Dratini had no way of learning the move)
 
So why not balance the scales a bit? If you're going to ban Follow Me Magmar because it wasn't obtained in Gen VI, then make the move available to Magmar in Gen VI natively. Then there's no issue! My Softboiled Clefable is still a collector's item but some ten year-old from Japan still gets to use it in a tournament if they so wish.
They've done this to some degree as you said, however only for pokemon/moves they felt the need of it.
Usually moves that *actually had competitive viability* (see Ext. Speed Dragonite)

The only move I'm still really salty about is Heatran never getting Eruption again. That one was clearly intentional obviously, the Eruption Heatran was likely intentionally locked to Quiet, and they absolutely did not want one of the already best pokemon of most formats to suddently gain access to a insanely strong spread move.
 

QuentinQuonce

formerly green_typhlosion
They've done this to some degree as you said, however only for pokemon/moves they felt the need of it.
Usually moves that *actually had competitive viability* (see Ext. Speed Dragonite)

The only move I'm still really salty about is Heatran never getting Eruption again. That one was clearly intentional obviously, the Eruption Heatran was likely intentionally locked to Quiet, and they absolutely did not want one of the already best pokemon of most formats to suddently gain access to a insanely strong spread move.
Yeah I feel like with that one it was definitely intentionally hobbled. It's just too good.

Edit: looking into another event distribution I'm rather fond of (the shiny legendary beast trio from Gen IV) it's a neat 4-3-2 situation there with the exclusive moves from that occasion: all three of the trio eventually got Extremespeed as part of their natural movesets, Raikou regained Aura Sphere, Weather Ball, and Zap Cannon (obvs the latter was a TM in Gen II), while Suicune got Sheer Cold and Air Slash but has yet to regain Aqua Ring. Because, y'know, that is clearly all that's holding Suicune back from being completely and utterly broken.

Poor old Entei, ever the butt monkey of its trio, got Flare Blitz back after a few generations but never managed to regain Crush Claw (meh) or Howl (useful!). I guess it still has Curse.
 
Edit: looking into another event distribution I'm rather fond of (the shiny legendary beast trio from Gen IV) it's a neat 4-3-2 situation there with the exclusive moves from that occasion: all three of the trio eventually got Extremespeed as part of their natural movesets, Raikou regained Aura Sphere, Weather Ball, and Zap Cannon (obvs the latter was a TM in Gen II), while Suicune got Sheer Cold and Air Slash but has yet to regain Aqua Ring. Because, y'know, that is clearly all that's holding Suicune back from being completely and utterly broken.

Poor old Entei, ever the butt monkey of its trio, got Flare Blitz back after a few generations but never managed to regain Crush Claw (meh) or Howl (useful!). I guess it still has Curse.
Honestly I'd assume these are just on the list of "ok but who cares" moves. Like, reverse of what happened for Heatran. They're moves so pointless and never used so they didn't think there's any reason to give them back.

As I implied earlier, most of the moves "given back" were mainly due to them... actually being useful (or just, became TMs in later generations like Weather Ball or Dragon Dance). Outside of Heatran's Eruption, Zygarde's Extreme Speed and Rayquaza's V-create, I don't think any of the other "non recovered moves" was done out of balance reasons.
(I am not counting Victini's bunch of event moves as it's never been legal in VGC so they probably just don't care).
 

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