I’ve been theorymonning a lot of fun used for Terastalization and I figured I’d post the current list here as opposed to typing it all out. I know a lot of these have already been mentioned but some I think haven’t been brought up yet.
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Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
Heres some little analyses i did last night quick (I’ll edit in any suggestions/amendments). Btw would it be possible for me to create individual pages dedicated to these or is that weird
Mirror Herb:
An one-time use item that copies stat changes from the opponent performed during that turn.
This item, like weakness policy and other items, is helpful in giving stat boosts to mons which dont have (viable) stat raising moves. It is most effective if used to copy stats from a move that raises stats a lot, such as shell smash, clanging scales/clangorous soulblaze or extreme evoboost. It could be used on mons with the Simple ability too (not sure if it copies stats or copies stat change. If 2nd then Simple becomes very powerful).
side note: this won’t appear too often due to it being very opportunity based though itll appear enough for it to be advisable to prepare in advance.
Possible counters:
Using a move that lower stats while also doing damage would cripple the other mon if it is still unfainted (e.g V-create, Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm…). Also priority moves would counter it a little bit.
How to counter the counters:
You can do the usual thing which is switch out to a resistant/immune mon or use a protection move. Also, using moves like encore could force them to do a positive stat change if used before, potentially also gaining enough power to KO. Another interesting trick would be to switch into a Contrary mon (shed tail would be optimal) but that would require you to read the move and also be able to survive the attack (Contrary-ed V-create is pretty tanky)
Shed Tail:
A move that removes HP from the user in order to create a substitute (would it allow you to KO yourself?) and then switches into another mon (what if you have no mons left? Is it just regular sub?). This can be very good to set up another mon, giving you at least 1 free turn. Recommended that this goes on a slower mon. (A theory: for balancing, this may be a priority move to prevent strats like this)
Side note: I expect there to be a strong meta of this move in the start of gen9 due to its potential
Possible sets:
Possible counters:
Sound-based moves would be able to bypass the substitute as usual.
Unseen Fist and Infiltrator would still be a threat too ofc
Countering the counters:
Sound-based moves: The Soundproof ability fully blocks all sound-based attacks. Also, most sound-based moves are normal type and therefore Ghost types also work (terrastalising into ghost is unpredictable and therefore very effective). Additionally, there would be no damage done to the substitute, giving the player more time
Unseen Fist/Infiltrator: The Mold Breaker ability would be able to negate this threat though itd still be able to damage the substitute
Mirror Herb:
An one-time use item that copies stat changes from the opponent performed during that turn.
This item, like weakness policy and other items, is helpful in giving stat boosts to mons which dont have (viable) stat raising moves. It is most effective if used to copy stats from a move that raises stats a lot, such as shell smash, clanging scales/clangorous soulblaze or extreme evoboost. It could be used on mons with the Simple ability too (not sure if it copies stats or copies stat change. If 2nd then Simple becomes very powerful).
side note: this won’t appear too often due to it being very opportunity based though itll appear enough for it to be advisable to prepare in advance.
Possible counters:
Using a move that lower stats while also doing damage would cripple the other mon if it is still unfainted (e.g V-create, Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm…). Also priority moves would counter it a little bit.
How to counter the counters:
You can do the usual thing which is switch out to a resistant/immune mon or use a protection move. Also, using moves like encore could force them to do a positive stat change if used before, potentially also gaining enough power to KO. Another interesting trick would be to switch into a Contrary mon (shed tail would be optimal) but that would require you to read the move and also be able to survive the attack (Contrary-ed V-create is pretty tanky)
Shed Tail:
A move that removes HP from the user in order to create a substitute (would it allow you to KO yourself?) and then switches into another mon (what if you have no mons left? Is it just regular sub?). This can be very good to set up another mon, giving you at least 1 free turn. Recommended that this goes on a slower mon. (A theory: for balancing, this may be a priority move to prevent strats like this)
Side note: I expect there to be a strong meta of this move in the start of gen9 due to its potential
Possible sets:
- Shed Tail+Mimikyu: use the move to switch safely (be slower) and then use swords dance twice. Shadow sneak should be able to do heavy damage. An effective revenge killer, or a threat to other mons setting up
- ST+Bulk: Shed Tail into a tank/wall with very high Def/SpD stats to allow a sub to last a few turns. This can be paired with raising the Def/SpD stats even higher. A serious threat if used to set up a Body Press-er
Sound-based moves would be able to bypass the substitute as usual.
Unseen Fist and Infiltrator would still be a threat too ofc
Countering the counters:
Sound-based moves: The Soundproof ability fully blocks all sound-based attacks. Also, most sound-based moves are normal type and therefore Ghost types also work (terrastalising into ghost is unpredictable and therefore very effective). Additionally, there would be no damage done to the substitute, giving the player more time
Unseen Fist/Infiltrator: The Mold Breaker ability would be able to negate this threat though itd still be able to damage the substitute
I'm a bit behind with the Scarlet & Violet news right now, so I'm just going to post my initial reactions to some of the new stuff we've seen recently and go from there.
- Terastalizing (is that how you spell it?) seems like it is going to benefit more Pokémon that it does for others, knowing what we know about its mechanics so far. This is a problem I also had with Mega Evolutions and to a lesser extent, G-Max forms in Sword & Shield. The problem I have with this mechanic is that the species of Pokémon we all know and love weren't designed with the mechanic in mind. being a universal mechanic similar to Z-Moves or Dynamax, however, I fear that the SIngles and Doubles metas alike will become overly centric around the quote-on-quote "best" Tera Pokémon type combinations. This is only made worse by the fact that an opponent won't know what Tera type you're running. At least with Mega Evolutions you knew what to expect based on the species.
- Shed Tail is f***ing broken. Or whatever that new move the bike Pokémon has is called. Players will be able to spec their... whatever the new guy is called, Cyclizar or something? to run minimal Speed investment to get their offensive teammates in even more safely behind a Substitute- and that's assuming the move doesn't have the negative priority of post-buff Teleport. Can you tell I haven't been keeping up with the news yet?
- I like some of the new held items in theory, although I don't expect most of them to have a significant impact on either single player or multiplayer. The Loaded Dice could see niche use on options like Technician Breloom with Bullet Seed, I suppose.
- As the late 2010s were... ever so kind to teach me, one of the fastest ways for me to start enjoying a Pokémon game is by getting to know well-written characters a bit more. Case in point, we still don't have a whole lot of information on some of the game's new characters unless there was any other news I missed. Any news about any of these characters would be nice for me to have, I'd say. I get that spoiler alerts are a thing, for the record, but if I'm being honest the only good... let's say twist villains in the series up to this point haven't even been from the main series games anyways. I would sooner say a game like Colloseum or Ranger has better twist villains by comparison.
I don’t think there will be anything that becomes broken from this mechanic besides maybe some new Pokemon or some outliers like Shedinja, and even then.
The things is that between Megas, Z Moves, Dynamax, and Tera Types, there is this thing called compromise. And yeah, Dynamax even had that as well, even if the compromises were drowned out by the benefits. That is actually why Dynamax was universally banned in every metagame, which is the ratio of benefits to compromise.
Megas were essentially restricted Ubers with being forced to use up an Item Slot.
Z-moves are 1 time Explosions or extra effects that costs an Item Slot.
Dynamax…ummm…broke your Sub, ummm…and sometimes your moves would be weaker.
Terastallize on anything but an already Monotype Pokemon gets to be any type but lose your own typings. If you’re Monotype and have the same Tera Type as your original, the only drawback is missing potential. Like Lilligant can become Tera Grass to get Super STAB on Grass, but would miss out on Tera Fire for Fire coverage and Fire resistances.
Another reason why Dynamax was banned and likely not Terastallizing is counterplay. Double HP is basically halving all damage while you also fire off moves that typically have BP to match Close Combat and Boomburst. Additionally, because GameFreak didn’t want the kiddies to be upset when their Dynamax ends, they just slapped on a bunch of immunities to things it has no business being immune to like Encore and Destiny Bond. What’s more insulting is that Weight Based moves don’t even affect Dynamax at all. Does literally 0 damage, while also GameFreak invents 2.5 Moves in Dynamax Cannon, and Behemoth Blade/Bash, making them exclusive to Legendaries. Nah, we can invent new clones for Low Kick and Grass Knot of various types that would do x2 or x3 damage to Dynamax. They have to be exclusive to Pokemon we won’t even allow in VGC until the end of the game’s lifespan.
Tera types are different since all it does is give yourself a different typing. The counterplay is to just understand the type chart.
I feel kind of the opposite way with Terastallizing.
First is that I wouldn’t Terastallize Pokemon lile Scizor for Super STAB on Bullet Punch since you lose the neutrality to Ground and Fighting and Bug STAB to make your Bullet Punch x1.33 stronger. I also think that Scizor would prefer a typing that compliments its typing instead. The best Scizor sets are the ones that are bulky after all, and making yourself part Water would generally have better match-ups against different teams.
But the key idea being match-ups.
If you have a team with Scizor, Heatran, and Ferrothorn, making Scizor the dedicated Tera user means you skip out on making Heatran or Ferrothorn, despite their great typings, worse in certain match-ups. Like against a Rain team, Ferrothorn is still useful and Scizor is somewhat useful, but Heatran is practically dead weight. That is until you become Grass Heatran and flip the match-up on its head.
Or let’s say your opponent beings a Magnezone team. Scizor can usually escape with U-turn and Heatran isn’t that threatened by Magnezone, while Ferrothorn could become dead on arrival against a crafty player. Not unless you have something like Dragon or Ghost Ferrothorn to escape Magnezone.
I’d also like to say that using Tera for STAB and Super STAB isn’t as great as people make it out to be.
Yeah Crawdaunt is threatening, but now imagine how threatening Crawdaunt would be if Adaptability removed its Dark typing. Now that would make Crawdaunt fall to NU if not PU.
Fully agree here. There's an opportunity cost here. Are you really going to pass up on a Guts+Adaptability Facade Terra Ursaluna over being some type to overcome its usual checks/counters?
Something I'd be curious to see is Pokemon exploiting Tera Types in a team context as well. Not just to improve themselves, but to maybe boost up their synergy with weird strats.
One set I remember finding really interesting in Gen 5 (whether or not it was jniche or just an experiment) was a Rain-based Volcarona, which leaned more heavily on Quiver Dance, Bug STAB + Hurricane for damage, while Fire was more an out to target mons that trouble Rain such as Ferrothorn. In this context, Tera-ing Volc into a Water type to gain Rain STAB could have been a neat gain for it while still maintaining that Fire Coverage to poke Holes in problem opponents.
I'm curious to see if people experiment with Tera types in this respect: Boosting up or tweaking a Pokemon's unique trait combination to better suit the role compression or specific utility it brings to the team in a wider context, whereas a lot of the speculative talk so far has (understandably) focused on how the Pokemon can benefit itself and its own match ups in a lot of 1-v-1 or 1-v-Several sort of talks.
One set I remember finding really interesting in Gen 5 (whether or not it was jniche or just an experiment) was a Rain-based Volcarona, which leaned more heavily on Quiver Dance, Bug STAB + Hurricane for damage, while Fire was more an out to target mons that trouble Rain such as Ferrothorn. In this context, Tera-ing Volc into a Water type to gain Rain STAB could have been a neat gain for it while still maintaining that Fire Coverage to poke Holes in problem opponents.
I'm curious to see if people experiment with Tera types in this respect: Boosting up or tweaking a Pokemon's unique trait combination to better suit the role compression or specific utility it brings to the team in a wider context, whereas a lot of the speculative talk so far has (understandably) focused on how the Pokemon can benefit itself and its own match ups in a lot of 1-v-1 or 1-v-Several sort of talks.
People will definitely do that at the start but as time goes on odds are it'll generally fall off as people figure out what doesn't work.
As pointed out elsewhere to keep in mind is that Tera Blast is normal-type until you Terastallize and generally may be a dead move slot if you don't do it. Which for the Battle Stadium/VGC formats will be a lot more okay since you aren't bringing a full team of 6 but for Smogon formats will be a lot less desirable.
Edit: Unless Tera Blast's base Power is 80 or above. At that point normal-type 'mons would start seriously considering it just because it wouldn't necissarily be a dead move slot for them even if they don't Terastallize and At 90 and above it's a guarantee they take it.
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I followed someone who did more battle spot SWSH singles & doubles for a time and it was interesting to see how the dynamaxing plays generally worked there and contrast it with how it landed in the smogong community. It'll be equally fun to see how it develops in SV battle spot and contrast it here with tera too
Spyro
Banned deucer.
If Terastallizing doesn't go they will have to ban a bunch of individual Pokemon. Crawdaunt, Porygon2, Volcarona, Victini, Dragapult, etc all become insane for example. I was just reading a post on reddit stunfisk and someone mentioned possibly only banning same type tera to prevent the huge increase in power output that break some of these Pokemon. Would this be considered a complex ban?
I think, for uses outside of the Adaptability boost, Terastalising has the most in common with Z-moves, in that the main utility is a strong move for a surprise counter. Thing is, the move won't be as powerful as a Z-move was most of the time (while also lacking the secondary effects of Dynamax moves), and the fact you lose your previous type means you limit what else you can do with your mon for the rest of the match. I'm inclined to agree that most people will just prefer to Terastal a mono-type with that same type and call it a day, or use it to give the Steel or Poison type to some stallmons.
I am, however, intrigued by the possibility of V-Create Fire Terastal Rayquaza, given that Terastal persists on switch-out.
I am, however, intrigued by the possibility of V-Create Fire Terastal Rayquaza, given that Terastal persists on switch-out.
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You bring up a good point. A lot of dual-types won't want to Terra unless it's necessary to win. Especially on defensive teams, I could imagine keeping terras in their back pocket for the late game. Basically, use your team to deal with threats conventionally, but once your team thins out and you have less options, you can claw back some of those options. In a lot of those cases you wouldn't do it for its offensive utility, so you wouldn't run Terra Blast anyway.
Wait, so you can only use Tera Blast if you are Terastallized?
Because in my head, it looked like the successor of Hidden Power from Gen II to VII, with more control over the type.
For now, we can only speculate the best uses for terastal:
- Changing a poor typing (most ice-types, since Ice is a coverage, not a type)
- Providing high utility for the team with a different type
- Turn all the tables against counters and a possible death
- Surprise enemies with unlikely counters
And I keep asking myself: how rare would be really strong teras? I mean, they wouldn't distribute fire magnezones and ground volcaronas everywhere at any time, would they?
- Changing a poor typing (most ice-types, since Ice is a coverage, not a type)
- Providing high utility for the team with a different type
- Turn all the tables against counters and a possible death
- Surprise enemies with unlikely counters
And I keep asking myself: how rare would be really strong teras? I mean, they wouldn't distribute fire magnezones and ground volcaronas everywhere at any time, would they?
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
You can use Tera Blast outside of it it'll just be Normal type, maybe even a bit weaker. Think Weather Ball but for Terastral
Spyro
Banned deucer.
Wait what? I thought any Pokemon could tera into any type
They can, but a Pokemon can only have one Tera type at a time -- think of it as a property akin to HP type, except independent of IVs. I imagine there'll be some way to change it, though, because they surely won't make a change that makes getting competitive legendaries in-game a massive pain in the ass again after the last three generations made things so much better in that respect.
I've been doing some theorymonning with Tera types recently. Here's the link.
Spyro
Banned deucer.
Do we have to wait for Gamefreak to release every tera type like the Flying Pikachu tera for example? or all they all in the game?
As far as we know they're all in game. Flying Tera Pikachu is not event only; the only part of the event that's noted as unique is the fact it learns the move "Fly"
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
There may be a few types each Pokemon can learn in the wild, but it’s almost guaranteed that every Tera type on almost every Pokemon is obtainable through raids.
It'll likely effectively be like that but there are raid dens that'll be more surefire ways to get specific Tera Types
I'd point that tecnically we don't actually know.
The wording on the site is vague and just points to "limitless combinations" and "there are 18 types of terastal".
We do not know if every pokemon can actually Tera in every type, nor (if it's the case) if they will all be available from the start or will have to wait for a Tera-Soup in the DLCs.
Completely irrelevant. There are already enough Pokémon in the metagame who can snowball through teams with just 1 stab move + non stabbed support. Shedinja, etcétera, are not the problems to me. The problem is, as I've already said, the fact that any sweeper that already has designated checks/counters can get rid of them by himself with no counterplay whatsoever. Once the designated check is dead, the entirety of the team falls apart.
It's not another reason, it's literally the same reason I stated in a practical sense of any Pokémon being OHKOed suddenly taking a attack it shouldn't at any given moment. You can keep adding if you want, the fact that most Pokémon can not only fire incredibly high BP moves that bypass even protect to not only inflict tons of damage but increasing the mon key stats (like speed) at the same time, or selfsetting weather boosting both the already high BP nuke and its own speed in the case of rain/sun/etc abusers in a single turn.
Since Terastallize can work on any Pokémon at any time, so, as happens with Dynamax, you can in fact very well decide to terastallize your Scizor to get Super STAB on Bullet Punch since, in that specific battle, maybe you don't care at all about your neutrality to ground, fighting and bug.
So, stating that you wouldn't terastallize Scizor, as if Terastallizing needed any item to be put before the battle, is exactly the same as saying "I wouldn't do something i could do in order to win because I want to preserve my neutrality to ground as an universal rule, no matter if said neutrality to ground is completely irrelevant in the actual battle i'm having right now or if Super Stab BP is my wincon".
That in itself, is the problem with terastalizing. There's no "I wouldn't". There just "You have nothing to check a Ground type Dnite, you don't even know I've a ground type Dnite and i'm about to get 3 DDs for free. GG".
If we go by the rule that those check/counters are by definition designated to stop a mon that otherwise could rampage through the rest of your team. Yes, I would instead of boosting an attack that, even after the boost, is stopped by the same check and or counter afterwards.
