Remember these things only really affected Smogon. Neither of these really sees much use in BSS.
Smogon doesn't exist as far as their balancing goes :P
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Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**
- Thread starter DHR-107
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Smogon doesn't exist as far as their balancing goes :P
IIRC Corv was a thing early on but since hazards aren't a thing in BSS/VGC it was for different reasons.
It seems a bit early for something like that to be leaked, we're over a month out from release.
Btw, I think we should talk about Super STAB now that the trailer shown Pokemon using it.
I heard some discussion on it and at the 0:50 mark of the trailer you can see Quaxly using Aqua Jet on Lechonk doing about 20% damage. Quaxly then Terastallizes into a Water type to deal 40% damage with Aqua Jet.
This does sound like Super STAB gives you an absurd x2 boost on top of your STAB, effectively x3 STAB.
While most people think this will be the case, something seems off about it. for Aqua Jet, it’s slightly weaker than the Z move and Dynamax counterpart, but you get to hold an item. Additionally, a move like Flamethrower goes from 90 BP to 175/130 BP respectfully. So this is supposed to mean that Flamethrower would be naturally stronger, permanent, and can be boosted further by items.
Even by GameFreak standards, this sounds too insane. It doesn’t even make sense where the x2 boost comes from.
Super STAB could be like this, but I think there is something more reasonable about that damage output by Quaxly. The most likely 2 explanations are that Torrent/Overgrowth/Blaze all got buffed to activate when Terastallized or activate earlier, or that Quaxly got a Crit. This would fit Terastallize STAB becoming Adaptability STAB and provide the same damage output.
x3 STAB sounds way to OP even by GameFreak standards and I hope it’s something else.
Anyone else have a clue what’s going on?
I heard some discussion on it and at the 0:50 mark of the trailer you can see Quaxly using Aqua Jet on Lechonk doing about 20% damage. Quaxly then Terastallizes into a Water type to deal 40% damage with Aqua Jet.
This does sound like Super STAB gives you an absurd x2 boost on top of your STAB, effectively x3 STAB.
While most people think this will be the case, something seems off about it. for Aqua Jet, it’s slightly weaker than the Z move and Dynamax counterpart, but you get to hold an item. Additionally, a move like Flamethrower goes from 90 BP to 175/130 BP respectfully. So this is supposed to mean that Flamethrower would be naturally stronger, permanent, and can be boosted further by items.
Even by GameFreak standards, this sounds too insane. It doesn’t even make sense where the x2 boost comes from.
Super STAB could be like this, but I think there is something more reasonable about that damage output by Quaxly. The most likely 2 explanations are that Torrent/Overgrowth/Blaze all got buffed to activate when Terastallized or activate earlier, or that Quaxly got a Crit. This would fit Terastallize STAB becoming Adaptability STAB and provide the same damage output.
x3 STAB sounds way to OP even by GameFreak standards and I hope it’s something else.
Anyone else have a clue what’s going on?
not when you've got two chinese leakers who have had access to stuff like the code for months
The Japanese trailer shows very different damage values.
English trailer:
Full HP: ~320 pixels
Pre-tera damage: ~70 pixels
Post-tera damage: ~140 pixels (twice as much, like you estimated)
Japanese trailer:
Full HP: ~320 pixels
Pre-tera damage: ~80 pixels
Post-tera damage: ~60 pixels (less??????)
Re: level scaling, it could be that the early events are more railroaded than the rest of the story, kind of like great plateau in BotW, to give players a taste of the three stories before being set loose. I think there was a map analysis - I forget if it was a post in this thread or a video - that noted it looked like you are forced to go through each/(at least one) of the three story bits they've shown that far.
Now, I'm not hopeful that level scaling unlocks after that, but it could be something like RBY with a bunch of gyms around the same levels and then some at higher levels, so you have some where the choice is not telegraphed by ace level, and then some which would traditionally be the last few gyms to tackle but could be taken on out of order as a challenge. With level scaling that sort of challenge is maybe more difficult to pull off (especially with exp share always on :P)
Now, I'm not hopeful that level scaling unlocks after that, but it could be something like RBY with a bunch of gyms around the same levels and then some at higher levels, so you have some where the choice is not telegraphed by ace level, and then some which would traditionally be the last few gyms to tackle but could be taken on out of order as a challenge. With level scaling that sort of challenge is maybe more difficult to pull off (especially with exp share always on :P)
Is it possible that it's a low roll/high roll situation? The battle is pretty low level, after all.
We can see that the Quaxly is at >75% health, so it's definitely not just an earlier activation, and introducing a new effect to make it active while Terastalised does seem a bit odd.
In the Japanese trailer, the Lechonk is at full HP when it takes the second attack, making it once again roughly 40%.
It is an interesting comparison they've given us, but the levels were pretty low in the battle so I'm personally not too concerned with speculating since depending on the multiplier it could just be up to damage rolls and not actually a straight 2x multiplier on top of STAB.
(This Squirtle has a 0 Attack IV and the Mime Jr. has a 0 HP IV.)
Lvl 15 0+ Atk Squirtle Aqua Jet vs. Lvl 17 0 HP / 0 Def Mime Jr.: 7-10 (21.2 - 30.3%) -- 98.1% chance to 4HKO
Lvl 15 0+ Atk Adaptability Squirtle Aqua Jet vs. Lvl 17 0 HP / 0 Def Mime Jr.: 10-14 (30.3 - 42.4%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
EDIT: I'll admit it's a random example I just made up based on extreme rolls that might not be consistent enough to occur in multiple trailers, but it's just to show that it's possible with a weaker boost in theory and that I hope gamefreak didn't actually just tack on 2x damage to same type teras. At least in the campaigns you'll have to recharge the tera orb for every outing.
Also it's minor but the raids will probably have more than 4 moves again since Chansey was seen using Defense Curl, Shadow Ball, Sing, and Light Screen across trailers and Farigiraf was still taking damage. Again I think it's interesting how they keep everyone involved this time by having them fight their own individual fights against the boss.
Speaking of other trailers, we can check damage in the other trailer variants as well. They look pretty similar though the Chinese versions fight a level 18 Lechonk instead though appear to do relatively more damage.
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I'll be honest, with how much of an absolute mess this trailer was, I'm not too confident on analyzing this because it may very well have been some sort of mistake. I'd be upset if it doubled damage though, would kill the gimmick for me.
I think the general assumption that i've seen is that since the map is shaped like a tire, you have gyms on the right side of the region and on the left side of the region with equivalent levels, so you still "progress" from the bottom of the region to the top, but the gym levels for the east and the west sides of the region stay similar to one anotherin order to make both paths equally accessible
On an unrelated note, I've seen some discussion going around Arven's side of the story. It seems that the item you unlock, Herba Mystica, shares its japanese name with Hidden Machines. In english, both of them are also abreviated to HMs. So the popular theory rn is that the "Path fo Legends" is what unlocks the different movement modes for the Raidons (Thus being a path for the literal legends)
Ya know, and I'm just spitballin' this here, but with that bit of info I can't help but think they are intending for players to pretty much do all 3 stories at the same time and just kinda ping pong between them.
ummm, holy shit.
Anyway, automated level scaling is about as terrible as it gets. I've seen a mod for BDSP ,iirc, that does it and I was like "Bro, a Lv. 40 Shinx is still getting folded by a Torterra, that ain't it.
When I think of Gym level scaling, I think about something closer to this:
Source:
Of course, I don't necessarily agree with everything about it, but the gist of it would be the Leaders adjusting their rosters and levels to compensate for the player's progress.
Surprisingly, SwSh's Wild Area was a good example of proper scaling. Sure, it's way easier when you don't have trainers to account for, but the idea of wild mons being upgraded based on the trainer's progress is good.
Ironically, SwSh also brings a bad example of static scaling. Klara/Avery having a Venipede/Abra and a Galarian Slowpoke when you first battle them is great if you do it early-game because they'll be around Lv. 12 like the rest of your similarly unevolved mons.
When you pull up after the Darkest Day and there's a Lv. 60 something Venipede staring at you, that's just embarrassing.
Ironically, there was NO reason for that to happen. Pre-DD and Post-DD IoA have separate trainer entries.
So let's take Klara 1 as an example.
Pre-DD: Venipede (Lv. 10), Galarian Slowpoke (Lv. 12). Just like vanilla SwSh.
Post-DD: Scolipede (Lv. 58), Galarian Weezing (Lv. 58), Galarian Slowbro (Lv. 60).
Also the same levels as vanilla, but there's an extra mon. Nothing mind-blowingly difficult, but it's at least adequate to the levels she's rolling with and the fact that this is the first battle the player will have against her.
If Game Freak tried to improve boss teambuilding by better use of strategies and gimmicks in order to make them more distinct and flavorful while also applying static scaling based on certain story flags that may or may not even be tied to the Gym Leader challenge, the games would be better for it.
Yeah, that makes sense. This is fortunate as x2 damage on top of STAB would be busted, but unfortunate since we don’t how much of a boost Super STAB gives.
On the topic of Level Scale:
I hope Gym Leader will change up their teams like in some Fan Content and like in Origins. It would be more appropriate to have Gym Leaders use different teams and if Gyms can be done in any order, it would be the best way to balance the game.
This does mean Gyms are gonna need 4 to 8 different teams in the main game. Otherwise, it’ll be either completely imbalanced, or you’ll have it so that there is no real point to fighting gyms out of order.
We can hope they took some lessons from the one good thing ILCA did with BDSP, aka the boss teams.
BDSP had some pretty well designed boss battles, both during story and in postgame rematches, with the AI not being "too" strong but at same time challenging enough to not let you just faceroll through the teams, expecially in the later battles (and Cynthia's BDSP team is scary as hell o_o).
I hope you have to play against a Stall team every time you boot Showdown.
Tbh, RBY is the worst-case scenario for me.
The reason is very simple. There are absolutely zero reasons to skip Gyms in RBY. Even if you, say, skip Surge to get to Erika at a slightly lower level, what's the point if you're eventually going to come back to Surge and roflstomp him for a badge?
Sure, you can get a new mon or TM, but ultimately that makes things easier, not harder tbh.
I actually disagree that BDSP's boss teams are good.
If it weren't for the Amié/Exp. All nonsense, those bosses would be straight-up hack tier.
Massive level spikes? IV/EV training? Have you seen Cynthia's team? That's just crazy.
The AI is legit good from what I hear tho. That's always a good thing.
In a normal playthrough, there is no reason. But there is a reason for challenge playthroughs where you have only 1 Pokemon for battling, it may be better to fight Blain or Koga just to get the EXP for an earlier Gym you’d otherwise struggle with. I know some YouTuber (I believe Jross) does this in some of his videos.
Only other reason is that you did it by accident without realizing the correct order.
But yeah, if Gyms are like in RGBY, there is no point to doing them out of order.
The level spikes are the fault of original DP, not BDSP.I actually disagree that BDSP's boss teams are good.
If it weren't for the Amié/Exp. All nonsense, those bosses would be straight-up hack tier.
Massive level spikes? IV/EV training? Have you seen Cynthia's team? That's just crazy.
The AI is legit good from what I hear tho. That's always a good thing.
As for the rest, outside of being suprised by Aaron because I wasn't expecting the level of change in terms of battle design compared to the originals, the only thing that caused any sort of issue was Garchomp, and only because they gave it Rough Skin.
Yes, but that doesn't make the spikes disappear, does it?
I mentioned "hack tier" not because of the difficulty per se, but because of the design philosophy behind it. It's well-known that "Difficulty" hacks do that kind of stuff all the time.
My issue with that approach is that often the focus on optimization/difficulty doesn't leave too much room for flavor, so you kind of just remember the battle for being tough and even that depends on how well you prepare for it. Now imagine an entire game based around that philosophy.
At some point, the game turns into some mush that you can only remember for being tough, but the bosses don't really make an individual impact that makes you go "Wow, that was a great battle."
Honestly all i want for "level scaling" is just to swap around the boss levels based on what you do them in.
Like if brassius is 15/15/17 and Grusha is (we haven't seen any levels I'm just spitballing) 48/48/50 then have it so if you do Grusha first he gets the 15/15/17 and Brassius gets 48/48/50 if you do him last. Evolution/devolution optional (Giovanni's level 50 rhyhorn, hello), move sets would probably only need small touch ups since there's plenty of moves that are kind of "timeless".
Star bosses & Titans would track their own stuff separately for simplicity.
For stuff out and about the world, I've thrown out ideas before about how to handle that but honestly I'd be fine with justlike... you go to Late Game Ice Area and most of the pokemon are like the 45s but you can find little pockets of weaker (unevolved, if relevant) pokemon in their 15s.
Let me go into the late game area and hunt a low leveled Cetitan for my troubles, is what I'm saying.
Like if brassius is 15/15/17 and Grusha is (we haven't seen any levels I'm just spitballing) 48/48/50 then have it so if you do Grusha first he gets the 15/15/17 and Brassius gets 48/48/50 if you do him last. Evolution/devolution optional (Giovanni's level 50 rhyhorn, hello), move sets would probably only need small touch ups since there's plenty of moves that are kind of "timeless".
Star bosses & Titans would track their own stuff separately for simplicity.
For stuff out and about the world, I've thrown out ideas before about how to handle that but honestly I'd be fine with justlike... you go to Late Game Ice Area and most of the pokemon are like the 45s but you can find little pockets of weaker (unevolved, if relevant) pokemon in their 15s.
Let me go into the late game area and hunt a low leveled Cetitan for my troubles, is what I'm saying.
I'mma keep it real with y'all.
I didn't expect SV's evolution animations to be anywhere as good as the truly epic Legends one. But maaaaaan, that's way too disappointing.
I didn't expect SV's evolution animations to be anywhere as good as the truly epic Legends one. But maaaaaan, that's way too disappointing.
It has wings it's just all bundled up. You can clearly make them out. It's also Crobat's ears and crobat's eyes.
It is the Legends animation; that's the Legends evolution tool tipI'mma keep it real with y'all.
I didn't expect SV's evolution animations to be anywhere as good as the truly epic Legends one. But maaaaaan, that's way too disappointing.