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I did another Whismur run, this time with Mild Nature (+ SpA, - Def), and yeesh. The 1st five Gyms ran about the same (easy to level up, great at route clearing, middling to poor in major battles). The 6th Gym it still performed as well as ever (solo'd the whole thing as Lv 35 Loudred). However past there, it was missing its 1-2 shots vs many route trainers, which left it too vulnerable considering its poor bulk. Its Shadow Ball also dealt noticeably less damage vs Tate & Liza and Phoebe, often requiring one extra turn to nab a KO on their mons, which is 1 turn too many considering Exploud's frailty. I'm inclined to put Whismur in D tier. It's easy to level up and is a solid mixed attacker, but for how squishy it is it doesn't pack enough of a punch, even if only just barely.
Oh, also now I'm a believer of Sunny Day Solar Beam Oddish.
Just a note on Pelipper vs Norman; you can also trivialize the fight by picking up the Toxic TM from Fiery Path via Strength right before fighting Norman.
Walrein
I am leaning towards somewhere F or E-tier. It comes so late and it requiring grinding (even if feasible) is a major turn off, at least in my personal opinion. It's also not something that I'd call great in matchups, either. Overall, I think the way it is means that Spheal does not deserve D-tier, but that may change with E4 matchups, particularly Drake
I strongly disagree with this opinion. Back in 2017, I used Spheal in my team and I had zero major problems with it (you can even read about it if you are willing to search this thread). Spheal starts off with a beautiful coverage (Aurora Beam, Surf and Body Slam) and level close enough to evolve immediately. Sealeo struggles a little at first but gets to tolerable power fairly quickly. Late in the game, Walrein is simply amazing. Brilliant bulk as well as respectable power make battles rather easy. Also, it can solo Drake flawlessly.
Honestly, Spheal has only one big problem and it is its late availability (its placement as well as relatively low level). This alone is not a reason substantial enough to put it below D tier, in my opinion.
I strongly disagree with this opinion. Back in 2017, I used Spheal in my team and I had zero major problems with it (you can even read about it if you are willing to search this thread). Spheal starts off with a beautiful coverage (Aurora Beam, Surf and Body Slam) and level close enough to evolve immediately. Sealeo struggles a little at first but gets to tolerable power fairly quickly. Late in the game, Walrein is simply amazing. Brilliant bulk as well as respectable power make battles rather easy. Also, it can solo Drake flawlessly.
Honestly, Spheal has only one big problem and it is its late availability (its placement as well as relatively low level). This alone is not a reason substantial enough to put it below D tier, in my opinion.
Well, what you quoted was just a summarization for that point of the game and does not represent its full performance, as I still have to complete the E4. I like to use preliminary tiers, as they convey easily what is my opinion on the Pokemon and also help me when I determine the overall rank of the Pokemon. So I am obviously not fully convinced it's F, E, D, or C or whatever tier one may want to nominate it, as I still have few major matchups that can determine its tier once and for all. I don't know how Drake is, but if you were to take it away (if it's good), it's hard for me to see D-tier with the currrent matchups I've experienced. But again, I have not reached this point of the game and therefore I have not considered it for that particular summarization.
And as for when I will post the E4 logs: I cannot guarantee anything. I've been having some health issues and not so much free time, so hopefully, I will be done soon (tm)
e: to make it clear, I fully understand that my data is incomplete and thus my opinion is likely to change if there's a major improvement in the E4.
I'd like to clarify that I did in fact try Toxic for Norman, what I didn't try was Ice Beam. Since it's so very niche it should prolly be mentioned on additional comments in the write-up.
EDIT: For reference here are the previous parts of the run: P1 P2 P3
Last part of the run:
Everything is level 45.
Shiftry: It needs +1 to 2HKO Altaria with Faint Attack after a Fake Out, it can get it because it likes to spam Dragon Dance fsr. +1 Aerial Ace does about half, looks like a roll. Against Rose, it's only 2HKO'd and can Toxic which is annoying. If it doesn't Toxic you can get another boost, but it still doesn't OHKO. Delcatty lives one +1 but can't do much back besides Sing, Magneton is 3HKOed (2HKOed at +2) and can para. Too many stops in the way to make this a reliable win.
I managed to come on top by living a +1 AA at half and critting as he healed, attacking Roselia as it used Magical Leaf, setting up a second Growth against Delcatty which put me to sleep but didn't get much mileage from Assist (first Magical Leaf, then Safeguard), then I two-shot Mag as I lived the Tbolt. Garde outspeeds but can't touch Shiftry so it spams CM/Double Team, if you get to that point you're fine. I wasted 9 Faint Attacks and ended up with 1 remaining, lol.
Zangoose: Return doesn't do enough to KO Altaria, which is sad because I wanted to set up on Roselia (which can't poison me). You might have to tank a +1 Aerial Ace, which does 50 HP (around 40%; I actually had to keep resetting it because he kept selecting DD or Safeguard and I wanted to see the damage). Then you outspeed and OHKO everything with Return but Magneton, which lives in red and does less than half with Tbolt. It's obviously destroyed by Dig/Brick Break.
Pelipper: If you have Ice Beam Altaria is OHKOed, if not Surf and Fly do like a quarter of its HP. Be careful since it might outspeed and para you with DragonBreath. MW Surf is a roll to OHKO Magneton, which is sad because my Pelipper has a lot of Special Attack (equal to its Defense, actually) meaning worse pelicans will fail entirely. Delcatty falls to a Surf, Gardevoir is 2HKOed but can CM to turn it into a 3HKO and one-shot with Psychic. Fly does pitiful damage back, around 25%. Best sit that one out. Roselia seems to be a roll to survive Ice Beam, Fly does a bit less. I'd say this is 4/5 with IB but keep in mind that not all Pelipper will have such high Special Attack stat.
Mawile: Without Ice Beam it's a 3HKO on Altaria (4HKO after Potion) but it doesn't do much back. Ice Beam comes very close to a OHKO, would be guaranteed with NeverMeltIce. Magneton is a no, Thunderbolt does way too much. Roselia can annoy with Leech Seed but otherwise it's 2HKOed. Delcatty is 3HKOed (can become a 2HKO with poison) and can put you to sleep but that's it. Gardevoir's Psychic does 48 HP (42%) so you'll likely need to heal. Sludge Bomb/Return are 3HKOs and it likes to set up Double Teams, so unless you're lucky this is probably a loss.
Medicham: You can get three boosts easily on Altaria and OHKO everything, but keep in mind Garde outspeeds and its Psychic does over half so whether you win or not depends on what Altaria does. +2 Return comes very close to OHKOing (guaranteed with Silk Scarf), but since it'll be faster you can just beat it as it heals. If you're healthy Garde will prefer to DT or CM allowing you to hit it, but keep in mind its Psychic KOs on a roll from 71/119 HP—so 60%. Dats power.
Swampert I thought would be tough to try because I was running three HMs, however Strength is a 3HKO on Altaria (4HKO after the potion; Altaria's +1 AA does 35 HP or 22%) and Pert outsped and OHKOed Roselia, Delcatty and Mag with EQ. Garde lives the EQ and likes to spam Double Team, Psychic does around 45%. Whether you win or not pretty much depends on if you took damage from Altaria and if you can hit the EQ.
Everything is level 47.
Zangoose: After an SD Return OHKOs everything, even accounting for Intimidate. Nothing outspeeds you, so the only thing that can stop you from sweeping is a miss from Sand-Attack or a drop from Scary Face (good thing you only need one turn to set up).
I tried it three times, the first one I missed against Cacturne which did around 40% with Needle Arm and then I missed again against Sharpedo, which left me at 1 HP so I'd die KOing it. The second time Mightyena used Crunch which also did around 40% and I swept easily. The third time I missed against Sharpedo again but it used Swagger, I overcame confusion twice and snapped out of it against Shiftry to deal the final blow—only taking damage from Rough Skin. Pretty good, I'd say.
Pelipper: Mightyena speed ties because of my low IVs and lives a Surf, fortunately Keen Eye protects me from Sand-Attack. Cacturne can apparently live the Ice Beam and Cotton Spore, which is annoying. Against Sharpedo I had to heal because its Crunch left me in red and Shock Wave doesn't kill (Surf likely 2HKOs). Absol spams Snatch fsr and Shiftry Double Team, so I could beat both.
I then tried with NeverMeltIce, since it seems Mystic Water doesn't make a difference. Mightyena Crunched twice and got a drop, which left me in red. Disgusting. I fortunately OHKOed Cacturne. I healed against Sharpedo, but its Crunch did way too much due to the drop. I tried it again but Crunch keeps dropping my SpDef. The fourth time I was finally able to overcome Mightyena, even getting scot-free because they Sand-Attacked first and I outsped the second time. Turns out NMI doesn't guarantee the KO against Cacturne, but I froze it so lol. Apparently Sharpedo 2HKOs with Crunch even from full, I guess I was lucky the time I healed as it Surf'd.
OK final chance, I use an X Special too see if it makes the difference. Mightyena again tries to Sand-Attack, I then OHKO with Surf. Cacturne also dies cleanly. Then Sharpedo comes in and Crunches me doing 53% and I kill with Shock Wave. Absol SDs and dies to MW Surf. Shiftry Double Teams but I hit the first Ice Beam and sweep clean. I think X items might be a bit borked, guys.
Mawile: Even with Hyper Cutter, Sludge Bomb/Return only 3HKOs and Mightyena outspeeds and annoys with Sand-Attack. Afterwards comes Sharpedo, which does way too much with Surf and is only 2HKOed. Better switch it out and come back in against Cacturne. Cacturne lives a Sludge Bomb and can Leech Seed, also annoying. Absol seems to privilege Snatch to attacking, allowing you to 2HKO. Then I crit Shiftry with the help from Quick Claw, otherwise it's more annoying with Double Team and Swagger. I missed four times before connecting, and then I got self-hit. Bad matchup, tbh, even if you can beat up to four by being super lucky.
Shiftry: First I tried Growth + Giga Drain. Everything was going swiftly, Fake Out + two rounds of Take Down meant +2 Giga Drain KOed Mightyena and healed me back. Then I faced Absol, whom I 2HKOed with Giga Drain while taking an Aerial Ace just fine. That's when I realized I forgot to take Pressure into account because I had no more PP for Sharpedo, so I decided to reset it to give it a PP Up lol. The same thing happened, except Absol decided to Snatch so it was an even freer kill. Now I know I have 1 PP which is for Sharpedo, meaning I'll have to beat Cacturne and Shiftry with Faint Attack. Cacturne is 3HKOed but it heals after the second, so I decide so set up a third Growth as it Cotton Spores (I'll prolly be slower anyway). Then I tank two hits and beat it. Shiftry comes in and spams Double Team, at +3 I don't 2HKO and again it heals so I get to +4. It Swaggers me just as I'm about to deal the finishing blow. Thankfully I connect, Pedo comes in and Surfs for little damage and I beat confusion to heal back up with Giga Drain. Quite the rollercoaster.
Then I tried SunnyBeam. It OHKOes Mightyena just fine, however it falls short against Absol which means I'll have to waste 4 PPs. Then Cacturne also avoids the 2HKO. I decide to reset and try to Growth first, assuming the risk of Sand-Attack. The first time it uses it which makes me miss once, then I KO both Mightyena and Absol but I miss against Cacturne as the sun fades. I retry it, this time Mightyena uses Take Down twice so I set up everything and KO it and Absol and 2HKO Cacturne, which however crits me which forces me to heal as Shiftry comes in and uses Double Team. I decide I cannot use SolarBeam against it, so I keep Faint Attacking as he Double Teams and Swaggers. After three hits I realize the next one will proc Full Restore so I set up Sunny Day. I miss once, I miss twice, I need to hit the third one. I manage to while snapping out of confusion, then Sharpedo comes in and Crunches me for little damage and I finish it in the last sun turn. Cool. Definitely not what I'd call reliable tho (note that the only time lacking Chlorophyll mattered was against Sharpedo, since his Shiftry has it meaning it'd still outspeed).
Medicham: Mightyena amazingly lives a -1 HJK, meaning it can Crunch me and drop my SpDef. I Bulk Up as it heals and OHKO it, Absol, and Cacturne. Then Sharpedo comes in and crits me with Crunch, although since I was at -1 it prolly didn't matter. I try again, HJK now beats Mightyena. I take the risk and BU against Absol as it SDs, the one time it using Snatch would've worked lmao. I OHKO it and Cacturne, then Sharp comes in and attempts to Swagger me but misses as I KO it. Then Shiftry Fakes Out and crits an Extrasensory but since I'm super healthy I can beat it. I realize between Sand-Attack and Double Team the chances of missing are high so I'll try Brick Break (Mind Reader is also an option against Shiftry, I guess). I BU as Mightyena Takes Down, I OHKO it, Absol, and Cacturne with Brick Break. Then Sharpedo comes in and Surfs, I take it but after Rough Skin I'm very weakened so Shiftry crits me with Extrasensory. Ugh. It feels like I need to an X Speed to guarantee the win. I try again and this time Mightyena Sand-Attacks, luckily I connect all the Brick Breaks. For some reason Sharpedo Slashes, letting me KO it easily. Then Shiftry comes in and crits the Fake Out, but luckily Extrasensory doesn't flinch me. It's definitely not the best matchup, it's a bit sad that Zangoose ends up being better even against Dark-types :\
Swampert outspeeds and 2HKOs Mightyena with Surf (watch out for Sand-Attack), however unlike Pelipper not even NeverMeltIce IB can OHKO Cacturne—which obviously kills you with Needle Arm. If you switch out and come back in, you 2HKO Absol with EQ and tank a +2 Slash easily, it does less than 40%. Sharpedo comes in and for some reason Slashes instead of Surf, meaning Pert KOs with EQ. Then Shiftry is 2HKOed by IB as it spams Double Team to no avail. I'd say this is a positive matchup as long as you avoid Cacturne.
Everything is level 47 except for Zangoose which is 48.
Shiftry: It uses Confuse Ray as I Growth, I get self-hit a couple times as it Shadow Punches instead of Cursing. I finally connect, it leaves Dusclops in red so I set up a second Growth as it heals. After I KO it comes the second Dusclops, which also lives in red and finishes me with Ice Beam. The second time it Curses as I Growth, which means I can't beat the other Dusclops either. I keep getting Cursed as I set up so I decide to just 2HKO the first one. Then the second one comes in, I use Growth and it crits me. Evidently this won't get very far. After like seven tries, I finally manage to get to +2 without getting Cursed (yes confused). I manage to avoid getting self-hit three times in a row and beat the second Dusclops, which leaves me at around 40%. Then I finally get confused against Banette, which crits the Shadow Ball from 40 HP (dunno if it mattered). Ugh.
I decide to use Persim Berry instead of BlackGlasses. The first time I get Cursed, so I reset it. The second one I get to +2 as it wastes the Berry and Punches me. I OHKO the first Dusclops, crit-KO the second one (might've mattered because of Sitrus, not sure), cleanly beat both Banette and leave the Sableye in yellow. Maybe if I get to +3 on the second Dusclops I can OHKO both? After a couple tries where I get Cursed, I finally set up the third Growth and... get frozen, as I expected. Then I get defrosted immediately but I miclick and set up another Growth, lmao. Deserved I guess. I spend like thirty more tries to avoid getting Cursed, and then I get crit by Ice Beam OHKO the second Dusclops at +3 and both Banette. The Sableye lives and crits Shadow Ball.
Since it's clear the first Dusclops is super annoying and the second one does too much, I think the best route is to 2HKO the first one and switch out. So I attack and it dies to Curse, Fake Tears twice with Mawile as it dies to EQ and OHKO the second Dusclops with Faint Attack, and then I'm in a good spot. I Growth as I get burned but it's fine, OHKO both Banette and 2HKO the Sableye with 61 HP left. Yay for teamwork!
Zangoose: The first time I get self-hit twice and then Dusclops finishes me with Curse. The second one I manage to break out and OHKO it, then snap immediately out and OHKO the Banette. Against Sableye, Shadow Ball leaves it in red as it Psychics so I set up another one to OHKO. The second Banette falls, and also the mummy (which also dies to +2). Have I mentioned how good this is?
I tried Persim Berry too since it appears to privilege Confuse Ray. I beat everything but Sableye uses Attract. Thankfully I don't get immobilized by love and beat it and the rest of the team. Pretty cool, I'd say.
Pelipper: Surf 2HKOs the first Dusclops, cool. However, the first Banette is a speed tie and can Spite which will lower your chances for a sweep. Also repeated Shadow Balls hurt a fuckton (Banette 3HKOs, and it can also drop the SpDef so that Psychic/Faint Attack does more). You still 2HKO everything but the second Dusclops, but it's unlikely you'll even get to face it. With an X Special you seem to miss the KO on the slow Banette but you do get it against the second one and Sableye, so you might get four kills if you get lucky before needing to heal. Dusclops appears to always live two +1 Surfs after Sitrus. Still, it'd very much like to be faster. And to be part Dark-type and have fangs, why not o.O
Mawile: It OHKOs the first Dusclops with Crunch after two Fake Tears, confusion might get annoying. The second Dusclops 2HKOs back with EQ so don't bother. The first Banette likes to burn you but that's ok, the issue is it lives at -2 so needs prior damage. Similar deal with the second Banette and Sableye, but in this case it needs it for the 2HKO. Might need to heal once.
Medicham: I went ahead and gave it a Persim Berry because Wynaut. After a Bulk Up Shadow Punch does little damage, meanwhile Shadow Ball OHKOs the first Dusclops on a roll and both Banette. Sableye is 2HKOed and can Attract/hit hard with Shadow Ball. The second Dusclops surprisingly lives in red and hits back hard. Maybe Spell Tag would KO but I CBA to get it. I then try to get to +2 against the first Dusclops, risking the Curse. I manage to get it and everything goes the same, except Sableye lives in red and KOs me with Shadow Ball after tanking two Punches (it apparently privileges that over Confuse Ray). After a couple more failed tries I manage to get to Sableye healthier and set up a third BU as it Attracts me. I'm immobilized once but tank the Shadow Ball fine, then crit-KO—which I'm pretty sure didn't matter. The second Banette and Dusclops are defeated clean. Even with the weakness to Ghost-type moves, I'd say this performance was better than Sidney's.
Also something to note since I used it as a sack, HJK doesn't cause you to crash if you use it against Ghosts in this gen, it just says it doesn't affect them.
Swampert does OK but it might run out of PP between Pressure and Spite, lol. EQ 2HKOs Dusclops and puts the Banette and Sableye in red, better to 2HKO with Surf. Only the second Banette outspeeds, but you're still likely to get worn down. The second Dusclops might die to two EQs if it doesn't trigger the Sitrus Berry, but that's a roll. If you give it an X Attack, EQ OHKOs both Banette and Sableye and gets the guaranteed 2HKO on Dusclops, but you might need to heal anyway.
Zangoose and Medicham are 48, the rest is 47.
Medicham: For some reason the Glalie Light Screens as I OHKO with HJK. The second Glalie comes in and is outsped and also OHKOed. I set up a Bulk Up on Sealeo as it Hails, then OHKO both + Walrein—which I outspeed. Pretty cool, ngl.
I then try Brick Break. The first Glalie sets up Hail as I KO it, then I still outspeed the second Glalie. I BU as Sealeo Surfs for 47 HP (35%), and beat both and Walrein. Very reliable. The only risk I see is if it has to take both Ice Beam + Surf so I try once again. Ice Beam does 55 HP, so not much more than Surf. In matches such as this one where most mons are outsped I'd say Cham doesn't have much to envy from Heracross. As a note, +0 Brick Break fails to OHKO the second Sealeo and HJK leaves Walrein in red.
Zangoose: I set up an SD on Glalie as it Hails, then OHKO both Glalie and Sealeo and crit Walrein. I restart to see how much it'd really do. Literally the same thing happens, even the crit lol. The third time, again Glalie sets up Hail and Walrein lives in red and OHKOs with Blizzard which leads me to believe the matchup isn't risk free. The best thing to do is set up a second SD against the level 50 Sealeo and hope it doesn't BSlam para. I restarted multiple times but couldn't get the Glalie to attack; as I set up the second SD Sealeo Surfs for a bit over half HP, meaning I could technically get 2HKOed if Glalie used an offensive move. Weird AI. At +4 everything else is OHKOed, obviously.
Shiftry: I decided to go ahead and try SunnyBeam, which is risky. The first Glalie outspeeds and OHKOs, rough start. The second one is the same because of the level difference. Since those will have to be handled by something else, I think the best option is to rely on Brick Break Cham because of Light Screen. I Sunny Day as the first Sealeo crits an Ice Ball an leaves me at 33%. Then I KO it but the second Sealeo survives with 1 HP (because I forgot to give Shiftry Miracle Seed) and kills with Blizzard. However, it's very likely that neutral SolarBeam will fail to beat Walrein so it's best to Growth against Sealeo once and pray it doesn't crit. I take advantage of the fact that when Glalie doesn't Hail Sealeo always will and set up a Growth + Sunny Day, as it misses Ice Ball. I then KO both Sealeo and Walrein, while being at near full health. Lol.
Pelipper: First try Glalie hits me with Ice Beam for like 60% damage and freezes me. Lol. I'm guessing I'll have to do the same as with Shiftry. The first Sealeo is put in red by a crit Shock Wave, which means it's a 3HKO. The second one finishes me with Blizzard. I think the best option here is to try X Special again. At +1 it 2HKOs both Sealeo so if it can avoid a Blizzard (which in Gen III can miss even in Hail) it can get to Walrein relatively healthy. However, it outspeeds and finishes me off. I doubt it'll get much mileage here either way.
Mawile: Glalie's Ice Beam appears to be a 3HKO (did 40/117 HP) while it 3HKOs back. Even if you heal, Sealeo's Surf does 60% and you only 3HKO so don't bother. At most you're gonna be beating both Glalie, and even that's far from guaranteed. Bad matchup.
Swampert 2HKOs everything but Walrein with Earthquake, the problem is it's not gonna enjoy taking too many Special hits. Glalie's Ice Beam 3HKOs and Sealeo's Surf finishes it off so I tried the lead Medicham route. Like Pelipper, it beats both Sealeo fine but is outsped and finished by Walrein's Blizzard. +1 Earthquake isn't enough to OHKO the Sealeo either.
Medicham is level 49, Zangoose is 48, rest is 47.
Pelipper: NeverMeltIce Ice Beam doesn't KO Shelgon, which is sad since it can Rock Tomb and outspeed you or hit you hard with Dragon Claw, which does 47% because of my -SpDef nature. Luckily you can live Flygon's DragonBreath and set up an X Speed, but even at +1 you're still slower than both Gon and Salamence. Too bad because it seems like it should be able to KO all of them (Altaria is a roll). Even with multiple healing I don't see this working, unfortunately.
I tried it again after giving it a Rare Candy to see if it outspeeds stuff at +1. Now it OHKOs Shelgon with Ice Beam, meaning no Speed drop risk. Pretty cool. I used X Speed as Flygon set up Sandstorm, then I outsped and KOed. I also OHKOed Altaria and the second Flygon. Then Mence came in, outsped and OHKOed me with Dragon Claw. I tried a second time and apparently after I hit level 49 it becomes a speed tie so I can actually OHKO it, amazing how much difference one level can do.
Medicham: It needs +2 to OHKO Shelgon with HJK, meaning Brick Break won't be guaranteed. Flygon is a roll to KO. Salamence is 2HKOed after Intimidate with Silk Scarf Return, but it outspeeds and 2HKOs with basically every move. It appears to need four boosts to beat it, but that's easier said than done. If you do manage to get +4 and use an X Speed, it is in fact an OHKO but it was very hard to do because I needed Shelgon to use Protect as I boosted and miss Rock Tomb and for Flygon to not para me with DragonBreath, so it is possible but an extreme long shot.
Zangoose: If you're lucky and Shelgon spams Protect/misses Rock Tomb, you can set up two SDs and OHKO everything. For some reason unknown to me, neither of the Flygons attacked, wasting time with Sandstorm and debuffing me with Sand-Attack. Thanks to that, I was at near full against Salamence and could live a Fly and destroy it.
Anyway I think the key here is the speed, so I'd say if you can overcome Shelgon without a drop you can use X Speed on Altaria and then have no inconvenience against the rest of Drake's team. If it's way too much setup I can't say, but considering how tough this match is it might be necessary. I tried that once and unfortunately Altaria got the para with DragonBreath, but the second time it DD'd so I had free reign. The key difference here between Medicham and Goose is that the latter doesn't have to waste so many turns getting to +4, meaning it takes much less risks. And also Drake chooses to go to Altaria first, giving me a more viable option to use X-Speed.
Shiftry: Shelgon 3HKOs with Dragon Claw and lives a +2 Faint Attack, and can also debuff you with Rock Tomb. It's extremely unlikely you'll get very far here. If you do manage to get to +3 you can KO it, but then Flygon takes only 60%. SolarBeam obviously KOs but since it likes to use Sandstorm it can screw it over. However I'd say Chlorophyll should be able to set it up and OHKO it (I can't because I'm still slower and therefore it can change the weather back). In that case you could beat both Flygon before going down. Bad matchup, generally.
Mawile: With Fake Tears + Ice Beam it can OHKO Shelgon. Then Flygon comes in and Digs, beating it. Very shortlived, I guess. Altaria can be handled fine, but that's it since the other Flygon and Salamence OHKO with Flamethrower. I honestly forgot they had that, otherwise I wouldn't have thought this would be viable. It's not.
Swampert 2HKOs Shelgon and takes little damage, which is good. If it can avoid the Speed drop it can use an X Speed against Altaria. Unfortunately, Ice Beam doesn't OHKO it so you need some prior damage. Unlike Pelipper, Pert can outspeed both Flygon at +1 and KO them, one lived (might be a roll on both; also it's a speed tie at level 47) so I had to heal. Mence was still faster but did 45% with Dragon Claw and I KOed back, great job Pert.
Pelipper and Medicham are level 49, Zangoose is 48, rest is 47.
Shiftry: Skarmory outspeeds and 2HKOs with Aerial Ace. Meanwhile, you're doing less than 20% with Faint Attack so it's pretty much impossible to beat. If you use something else to take care of it, it can use SolarBeam to 2HKO Aggron. Claydol outspeeds and can screw you over with Light Screen if you lack Chlorophyll, but it can't do much anyway so you can set up Growth. Cradily is only 2HKOed with +1 SolarBeam and hits hard with Sludge Bomb. If you use Claydol as setup bait, +3 SolarBeam can OHKO Cradily, Armaldo and Aggron with just enough sun turns but it's very hard to do. Not a great matchup but also not terrible.
Zangoose: At +4 it's a roll to 2HKO Skarm with Return as long as it doesn't get the Steel Wing boost (good thing you're immune to Toxic). You're 3HKOed back, however. Then Armaldo comes in and is 2HKOed while 2HKOing back with AncientPower, meaning that if you're weakened you'll die. Claydol can live the +2 Return and 2HKO back with EQ, Shadow Ball might be able to win here but it needs Spell Tag to ensure it. You OHKO Aggron at +2 with coverage but you need Brick Break, since Dig means Earthquake will destroy you. +2 Brick Break 2HKOs Cradily which can annoy you with Confuse Ray. Clearly this is Zangoose's worst matchup.
Pelipper: Skarm outspeeds and can Toxic/set up Spikes, but you 2HKO with Surf (roll in your favor). Then Claydol comes in, which also outspeeds and is 2HKOed but can't do much with AncientPower if it doesn't get the omniboost (it can set up screens to annoy you, though). You outspeed Armaldo and OHKO it with Surf on a roll, so you can possibly get three kills before you need to heal. Cradily is 2HKOed by Ice Beam but it might become a 3HKO if it Giga Drains. If you use X Special against Claydol and it doesn't Light Screen, you OHKO it and Armaldo guaranteed but still 2HKO Cradily. Aggron is obviously swept clean. Then Metagross OHKOs you with Psychic. I'd say getting anywhere between 3 and 5 kills is an excellent matchup, Pelipper has impressed me a lot.
Mawile: I forgot to get the Flamethrower TM so the best I have is Ice Beam. It 3HKOs Skarm after a Fake Tears, meaning Flamethrower would be a 2HKO. Sometimes it'll switch out into Aggron when weakened, so make sure you can do enough. Cradily is faster and can Confuse Ray but that's it, although Giga Drain can sting. You 2HKO at -2 if it doesn't get the boost from AP. Claydol outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake, same as Metagross obviously.
EDIT: Since I did another E4 run I made sure to get Flamethrower now. It OHKOs Skarm after 2 Fake Tears (one puts it in red). Claydol forces it out. Armaldo does a lot with Water Pulse so you'll need to heal. You need two Fake Tears to 2HKO, so it's a very tough matchup. Cradily is the same as before.
Medicham: If you give it a Pecha Berry, it can set up on Skarm pretty freely. It 2HKOs at +2 with HJK and Brick Break. Then comes Armaldo which lives in red, meaning you might need to heal. Then it OHKOs Aggron and Cradily. It can set up further on Aggron but Thunder might para you. With Bulk Ups on your back Metagross will choose to Psychic, so it can hurt. You need to be at +4 to OHKO with HJK, luckily you outspeed. Claydol dies to Shadow Ball at +2, prolly gets 2HKOed by Return but it might annoy you with Reflect. I'd advise you to run both HJK and Brick Break just in case since the damage difference can be important.
Swampert only 3HKOs Skarm with Surf, meaning it can get Toxic'd. You should be fine outside of that because it does little damage. Aggron appears to outspeed because of the level difference so you might have to heal, it does like to use SolarBeam which means you can just sweep it. Cradily lives two Ice Beams and OHKOs with Giga Drain so it's a no. Claydol lives a Surf and can Light Screen, you should be able to beat it though. Same with Armaldo which you outspeed. Pert needs to be healthy to survive Psychic from Metagross since it does over half. Luckily EQ seems to be a guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus, although you'll likely need to sac something to heal.
If you give it a Rare Candy, it still fails to 2HKO Skarm and Aggron becomes a speed tie. The rest is basically the same, you still need to avoid the 2HKO from Metagross' Psychic.
Final rankings:
Mudkip S --> S Since I ended up testing it in the last part, I can say without a doubt this is S. The most reliable way to beat Steven's Metagross and Drake's Salamence. It has a bad period before getting Surf and also a bit before getting Earthquake, but but after that it's just incredibly consistent when it's not fighting Grass-types. Also the fact that it's one of the few Wattson counters gives it a special spot in anyone's heart.
Zangoose A --> S This was a tough one because I realize there's a high standard for what mons should be at the top, but I can't for the life of me leave it out when it's been consistently sweeping every big fight outside of Steven. Had it faced more troubles at the E4 I would've settled for A just fine, but since it can beat both Glacia AND Drake in the right conditions (ie. being able to get two boosts, not getting debuffed by Rock Tomb) makes me think it's more at home with Mudkip, Abra, and Ralts. Literally the only support it needs is Shadow Ball for Tate & Liza and Phoebe, and obviously Return. SD is really a blessing when combined with its high Speed.
Edit: I was typing this late at night so I forgot to reiterate how good the Erratic experience group is post Winona. While it's definitely as bad as Slow when you catch it absorbing experience from your teammates, lategame it's just a giver and I think that should also factor. Especially when you consider it just destroys everything when you catch it even from 4 levels behind.
Just for the lols, I decided to do a Zangoose run of the E4 on its own. This clearly shouldn't matter on its tiering, but I wanted to see how well it could do. Apologies for the terrible quality of the video, it was a spur of the moment thing. P1P2 P3 P4 Bonus
Wingull B --> B Any doubt I had about its performance in the lategame was cleared once I saw it do work with X items. It can sweep Sidney and Phoebe with an X Special and Drake with an X Speed, that was remarkably solid. I know I had one with really high Special Attack (finished with 122 in both SpAtk and Def) which makes me hesitate to nom it higher, but the fact that it can do well in so many big fights is simply remarkable. And it comes super early too, few early-game mons can work in the endgame like Pelipper could. But yea, I almost didn't miss Sharpedo outside of Tate & Liza.
Meditite C --> B This one's really good. Possibly the best Fighting-type against Tate & Liza, excellent against Wallace, Sidney, Phoebe, and Glacia, can also do work against Steven. The most direct comparison is Heracross, and they're honestly not far apart. It exceeded my expectations by a lot, the only babying period is until getting HJK and then it just smashes. Level 37 evolution means it might not be Cham for Winona but that's it, this is just a really cool mon.
Seedot (R) E --> D If it had done better against the E4 I would've nommed it higher because I think it has the least bad pre-Surf period of the not-Breloom Grass-types. However, Faint Attack just doesn't cut it (seen clearly against Phoebe) in the endgame so it relies too much on SunnyBeam. That's fine against Tate & Liza and Wallace, not really against Drake and Steven. It's still far from terrible, being one of the best mons against Roxanne and having a really short baby period. Decently surprised. After being notified that Vileplume is B (fsr I thought it was D, weird) I've decided to revise this because at first I thought it'd be a huge leap, but I can more comfortably argue for C now. It's still fringe because lategame Faint Attack is too weak, but SunnyBeam strats are solid and would've been even better if it had Chlorophyll. I keep thinking that every non-Loom Grass-type should be C or D but Texas has more experience with Plume.
Mawile (R) E --> D This did significantly worse than Shiftry lategame so it's kinda weird to nom them for the same tier, but the fact that it does well against Norman and Winona is imo enough to separate it from the rest of the scum. Also Fake Tears is a very fun support move if it can't win on its own (like against Phoebe's second Dusclops). I'd say Seedot is on the higher part of D and Mawile is on the lower, but I think both are better than E. I scratched those parts since now I nom Seedot for C but the rest is the same.
Regarding X items: While I was not a fan of them before, I gotta admit they can really help some Pokémon, especially those that only need one boost to improve a matchup a lot. I mentioned Pelipper and Sharpedo, but the poster boy (poster monster?) is perhaps Tentacruel, a mixed attacker with great coverage between Surf, Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam, and Giga Drain and, most importantly, Clear Body to prevent debuffs. That means it can use X Attack against Sidney and Glacia, X Special against Phoebe and Steven, and X Speed against Drake to improve its battles a lot. I still think it's a niche reserved for mons that don't require much setup One might argue that it's capricious and arbitrary to say that when stuff like Growth and Howl also need many boosts, and since I lack a good response besides my dislike for in-battle items I guess I am capricious and arbitrary.
Comment about Grass-types: While I haven't finished my Emerald run with Oddish because I was doing this one, I think it's reasonable that all non-Shroomish Grass-types should be around the same tier. I'm obviously not talking about TropicalloTropius since it performs completely differently, but rather Treecko, Seedot, both Oddish, and Lotad since they all face the trouble of a disgusting midgame pre-Surf and a very good lategame post-Lilycove. I know they all have their own quirks (particularly Lotad, which stops acting like a Grass-type after Surf and has a very late evo) but at the same time they're similar enough to be grouped together. Since Treecko is imo C, the lowest one should be D. I know I said before that Lotad could work as an HM user à la Marill but if we're talking performance-wise it's likely more D.
I fudged the Mawile IVs because at first I was unsure if I'd keep the Quiet one with Hyper Cutter since I wanted Intimidate, but after getting one with it with worse Speed IVs I opted to choose Hyper Cutter to not get super annoyed by Mightyenas. Intimidate is prolly the better option tho.
I do however have this pic of a misspelled Mawile.
Ludicolo: set up a Rain Dance, with Altaria's Aerial Ace 3HKOing Ludicolo. OHKO it with Ice Beam. Roselia comes in and is 2HKOed, but uses Toxic on you. You can beat it and, by the time you have beaten it, due to Wally healing it, your rain will be over. Use a Full Restore and set up another rain and spam MW Surf for the win (2HKOs Gardevoir and OHKOs the rest)
Bellossom: not great. Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Roselia and Solar Beam OHKOs Delcatty. However, Altaria and Magneton have no problems taking its hits and Gardevoir's Calm Minds make using Solar Beam hard, with Sludge Bomb being only a 3HKO.
Whiscash: Ice Beam OHKOs Altaria on rolls, while Earthquake OHKOs Roselia on rolls (although low chance, per some experiments), 2HKOs Delcatty and Gardevoir, and OHKOs Magneton. Unless you get unlucky with Roselia, Whiscash requires no healing whatsoever here
Claydol: Ice Beam puts Altaria in red. Psychic 2HKOs Roselia, who uses Toxic, and Earthquake 2HKOs Delcatty. Against Magneton, throw in a Full Restore and OHKO it with Earthquake. Gardevoir is 3HKOed by Earthquake, but I'd assume Shadow Ball would 2HKO, if you teach it that over, say, Cosmic Power
Walrein: If you go the Ice Ball route, you will kill everything up until Gardevoir if you don't miss at all. Gardevoir is then killed by 4 of them. Otherwise, Ice Beam will OHKO Altaria and Roselia, outspeeding the latter, MW Surf 2HKOs Magneton and Delcatty, but former is faster and should be avoided, and Gardevoir is 3HKOed.
everything is level 48
Ludicolo: MW Surf in rain OHKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Absol on rolls. Howe
Bellossom: Solar Beam puts Mightyena in red but Sand-Attack makes this matchup shaky. Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Shiftry and Cacturne. Against Cacturne, put it to sleep, so it doesn't Cotton Spore. This is because, after Sunny Day, Bellossom can outspeed Absol (after putting it to sleep before setting up Sunny Day) in sun and 2HKO it with Solar Beam. Crawdaunt is also easy to kill.
Whiscash: MW Surf 2HKOs Mightyena, while Ice Beam 2HKOs the Grass-types. However, Cacturne OHKOs with Needle Arm if it goes for it, while Shiftry has the obnoxious combination of Double Team and Swagger. Earthquake fails to 2HKO Absol due to Sitrus Berry, and Absol eventually wins due to +2 Slash. Crawdaunt is also 3HKOed by EQ and it manages to beat Whiscash due to SD + Strength
Claydol: Ice Beam 2HKOs Cacturne and Shiftry, with the latter being very annoying due to Swagger + Double Team. If you are fully healed, you also beat Absol by 3HKOing it with Earthquake, as +2 Slash doesn't 2HKO unless one ends up being a crit
Walrein: MW Surf 2HKOs Mightyena, but you gotta deal with Sand-Attack. Ice Beam outspeeds and OHKOs Cacturne and also OHKOs Shiftry. Absol is 2HKOed by MW Surf and Absol 3HKOs with Rock Slide, so you can win this if you are at full. Crawdaunt is 3HKOed by MW Surf, but you are very likely gonna be too damaged to continue
Ludicolo is level 49, rest is 48
Ludicolo: MW Surf 2HKOs everything in rain, though I'd personally not go for both Dusclops due to Pressure.
Bellossom: not good. Dusclops's Pressure make it unusable against them. Banette and Sableye are 2HKOed by Solar Beam, however, one of the Banette enters Grudge spam, so you are stalemated here, unless you rely on Sludge Bomb poisoning at the right moment. Sableye can also be put to sleep, if you wish. Overall, I wouldn't call this a good matchup
Whiscash: Earthquake 2HKOs on rolls the Banette and Sableye. Don't bother with Dusclops. Also note you are 3HKOed by Shadow Balls from Banette and Sableye.
Claydol: Shadow Ball 2HKOs the Banette, but they also 2HKO with Shadow Ball, so you are likely taking down one only. Don't bother with Dusclops, due to Pressure. Earthquake fails to 2HKO Sableye, so don't bother there too
Walrein: MW Surf 2HKOs everything bar Dusclops #2. You must switch out after beating Banette #1 and heal it offscreen.
Ludicolo: Giga Drain 2HKOs Sealeo and Walrein, with the level 52 one and Walrein being rolls. Glalie is also 2HKOed by Surf in rain if there's no Light Screen on their side. You will likely need to restore PP on Giga Drain mid-battle, though, if going after level 52 Sealeo (and also a Full Restore as you restore PP).
Bellossom: Solar Beam OHKOs Sealeo #1 and 2HKOs the other Water-types. However, Walrein OHKOs with Ice Beam and is faster outside of sun, so you need to get lucky with Sleep Powder, which you also need to prevent Sealeo from setting up Hail. Glalie are simply unbeatable, as they are 3HKOed.
Whiscash: 3HKOs everything bar Walrein with Earthquake. You can spam Amnesia and thus ead attacks like nothing, though it does have to worry about level 52 Sealeo's Double-Edge and Walrein's Sheer Cold. You will definitely need to heal at least once to take out three threats. In my case, I had to heal while fighting Glalie #1, although I set up the Amnesias there and not earlier due to Body Slam's paralysis chance (thus I wanted to deal with it faster)
Claydol: horrible matchup. Claydol can only beat Sealeo #1 by 3HKOing it with Earthquake, while it takes time to set up Hail and Ice Ball turns. After that, even Glalie''s Icy Wind manages to 3HKO. So, simply put, it's not doing much here.
Walrein: bad matchup. You simply should not deal with the Water-types whatsoever, as even the first Sealeo takes laughable damage from Body Slam. Glalie are 3HKOed by MW Surf, but the first one likes to set up Light Screen, so you are gonna spend some time killing those too. All in all, I would call this matchup not good because of how long it takes.
same levels
Ludicolo: Ice Beam OHKOs Flygon and 2HKOs the rest, bar Kingdra. All of them are outsped if you have rain. Salamence's Dragon Claw can be eaten if you not at low yellow HP and thus put it in red. It's something, I guess
Bellossom: mostly awful. At most it beats Flygon by putting it to sleep, setting up Sun, and then outspeeding it and 2HKOing it with Solar Beam. However, its Flamethrower is a 2HKO. It can also outspeed even Salamence with sun and put it to sleep. Kingdra would be a good matchup if it wasn't for the fact Smokescreen makes everything harder than it should be (unless you get lucky and hit Sleep Powder)
Whiscash: Ice Beam 2HKOs Shelgon and Altaria and OHKOs Flygon on rolls. Amnesia strat here doesn't work, as most of them have physical coverage anyways, typically 3HKOing it, though you could spam healing items to get past that (though watch out for Kingdra's Smokescreen).
Claydol: Ice Beam 2HKOs all things weak to Ice, including the 4x weaknesses. You could try a Cosmic Power strat (this is me theorymonning as I had already forgotten it for Shadow Ball) if you are willing to spam it and pour in some healing items, but this strategy requires Kingdra eliminated ,as Smokescreen is... obnoxious.
Walrein: Ice Beam OHKOs everything bar Kingdra, which is 3HKOed. Salamence 2HKOs with Rock Slide, so whenever you beat it or no comes to whenever it manages to flinch you. Honestly, this is rather impressive and probably the only reason you would use Walrein. You may need to heal once, depending on if Altaria goes for DD or attacks directly.
Ludicolo: Giga Drain 2HKOs Wailord after it uses Double-Edge twice. Whiscash is 2HKOed by Giga Drain as well. Milotic is 3-4HKOed by Giga Drain and it spams Ice Beam, which doesn't do much to the healing from Giga Drain. Thus, it might be a good idea to teach Toxic over Ice Beam to wear out Milotic.
Bellossom: Solar Beam 2HKOs Wailord and OHKOs Whiscash if it has no Amnesia boosts. Due to 3HKOing Milotic, it won't be able to beat that. The rest are simply not doable (though Ludicolo is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb)
Whiscash: 2HKOs Tentacruel with EQ as it Toxices you, but the rest are simply not beatable at all.
Claydol: I might as well leave this blank
Walrein: bad. It is unable to take down anything, as everything 3HKOs it at worst. Even Wailord takes enough from Ice Ball stacking to damage Walrein hard (heals after 4th one and 5th puts it in the lower part of the yellow bar). So yeah, nothing good here
nominations:
Spheal -> D
The Drake matchup did turn out to be amazing (not like I doubted it as much as me just not wanting to take it into account before facing him). However, Walrein is pretty slow at actually beating some other fights, most notably Juan, where Luvdisc is the only thing it 2HKOs, with the rest being 4HKOs (Kingdra is not worth the matchup because.... Double Team). My main issue is that grinding it is not really something that helps its case, as Body Slam often 2HKOs at the earlier levels (or worse) and with its 15 PP, you will drain it out pretty fast, unless you invest PP Ups in it (which I generally do only for 5 PP moves). D-tier is fine by me, regardless.
Barboach -> C / B
So, up until the E4, I always saw Whiscash and Sharpedo as functionally the same, given they had very similar performance. However, it lacks a strong E4 matchup, unlike Sharpedo, so I am a bit doubtful of B-tier for it. I felt like it wasn't super fast in defeating things either, which is why I think C-tier is not out of question. I tried researching Barboach in earlier posts in this thread and saw a mention of Amnesia + X Items. I am not sure what is the exact policy on X Items and I generally do not tend to use or factor them either, which, combined with the fact I don't know if it has a good matchup against Steven in RS, is why I am unsure for this nomination and why I am not making a definitive case for C-tier. But B-tier is not the end of the world for me, mind you, but if X Items (and Steven) push it to B and that's acceptable, then I am ok with B
Baltoy -> E (Emerald)
Note that I am gonna talk about Emerald experience and thus it won't reflect RS, where I have read that it performs slightly better. Baltoy phase is, simply put, shockingly horrible and even Claydol isn't a strong presence in major fights. While it offers slightly better matchup against Archie than most things and can deal with T&L's Claydol safely, I think that's more of a saving grace from F than E. There's also things like spamming Cosmic Power like crazy, but the strategy wastes a lot of time and potentially resources. If Steven is what pushes Baltoy to D, I have no problems with it staying in D if in a write-up or whatever it has it's mentioned that it's substantially worse in Emerald than RS, but, per experience, I think it barely gets out of F.
Oddish (Bellossom) -> D
I was wondering if I wanted to give it E or D, but I ultimately decided that Sleep Powder pushed this to D. I definitely do not agree with C-tier the way it is, as the Gloom period is.... atrocious. Beyond powder moves, it contributes almost nothing and managed to struggle against Norman's Spinda despite its decent IVs. It does manage to pull its weight end-game due to SunynBeam and Chlorophyll, but I do not think the Gloom period warrants C-tier, especially if Lotad is D or E due to Lombre stage (which is a bit longer, but by one major fight)
By the way, are we sure Vileplume is B? I know it evolves earlier, but the Gloom period was still horrible for me
Lotad
Lotad has a similar case as Bellossom. Both have middle-stage periods that I'd classify as "not good". Gloom offers powder utility, while Lombre offers a great matchup against Roxanne and an ok matchup against Brawly. After that, it becomes significally worse and doesn't really take out anything relevant (e.g. it only takes out the things everything else takes out like Winona's Swablu). While it doesn't have Sleep Powder like Gloom, it does have the aforementioned earlier matchups. Thus, I think Lotad and Bellossom should just be bundled in the same tier, as both are just not good NFEs that can pull off their weight end-game (especially with weather strategies, though Ludicolo is a bit better in that regard due to rain boosting Surf's power and also manages to do better against Drake). I want to note that I never found Texas's logs of Lotad beyond Winona, so I don't know what he has experienced for the E4 and how much role it played in his nom to E. Regardless, I think Lotad in D is fine, personally, especially if we are not gonna drop Bellossom to E for Gloom period.
I will probs take a hiatus on testing for RSE. I have lost some motivation due to inactivity and would rather have my noms addressed first before continuing. And I want to help finish HGSS list too, so I'd rather concentrate my energy there.
Got interested in the Zangoose nom to S so I decided to do a run. I used Torchic, Alakazam, Zangoose and Groudon (and some Zigzagoons, Tropius and Wailmer for obvious reasons).
Not much to add to Torchic since it is in A tier and I agree with what has been said.
Alakazam seems S tier but on the lower end of it. Its route cleaning is fantastic, but I do think it runs into some issues in a couple of boss fights, as good as it is in most of them. For the 2nd gym there doesn't seem to be a consistent way to get Kadabra before the fight (mine was level 13 iirc, despite fighting all the trainers in the area), unless if you avoid some trainers on purpose and backtrack, which would be an hassle. So it doesn't end up contributing to that fight. Against Norman it can't do anything, against Tate & Liza it doesn't hit hard enough and so on. Obviously amazing, but it does have some clear flaws (unlike in RBY and GSC).
Zangoose is just... literally the best thing in the game besides Mudkip. You get it under leveled, but it still 2hkos at that point, thanks to STAB Strength (or 1hkos after SD). A couple of levels later it starts 1hkoing, and I honestly think it would be easier to count the random trainer Pokemons it doesn't 1hko than the ones it does throughout the whole game. Slash ensures it doesn't run into pp issues. The Dig tm can allow it to get past the rare Geodude and finally Shadow Ball just gives it pretty much perfect coverage (couldn't teach it Brick Break since it went to Blaziken). Return late game is just dirty. In boss fights you just SD once->1hko everything. The only exception is Norman, where I had to SD to +6 and use an X-Speed to outspeed the second Slaking. The only fight where it performs badly is against Steven. Other than that the only problems I had with it were having to rely on Dig against the rare Geodudes/Gravelers/Mawile, especially since the latter can use Iron Defense. This seems like a clear S tier.
Groudon is definitely A, but it is way less dominant than Rayquaza, which I guess is to be expected due to the massive level gap.
On another topic. Would it make sense for the Zigzagoons to move up a tier? As in Zigzagoon(RS) to A and the (E) one to B. I've played the gen 3 games a lot and I honestly can't remember the last time when I didn't just fill up the empty slots in my party with Zigzagoons. Letting them just sit there and give you free items is just super good, and comes with practically no downsides. The free Super Potions make it so you almost never need to buy potions until Hyper Potions become available. And Full Restores, Nuggets, Rare Candies, Proteins and PP Ups are just fantastic. Obviously in Emerald the ability is a lot worse, but you are still getting free heals, repels, X Attacks and Poke Balls. You can also catch a level 21+ Linoone later to have better odds and access to better items (like Rare Candies). On top of this, Zigzagoon can learn Cut, Rock Smash and Surf (Linoone gets Strength as well), making it a great HM user, even if Tropius is clearly better since it has better synergy with Wailmer (because of Fly and Flash). Obviously this pokemon is a bit weird to rank, since it is a strictly utility Pokemon that's never going to fight, but I think it might deserve a better rank.
Oddish (Bellossom) -> D
I was wondering if I wanted to give it E or D, but I ultimately decided that Sleep Powder pushed this to D. I definitely do not agree with C-tier the way it is, as the Gloom period is.... atrocious. Beyond powder moves, it contributes almost nothing and managed to struggle against Norman's Spinda despite its decent IVs. It does manage to pull its weight end-game due to SunynBeam and Chlorophyll, but I do not think the Gloom period warrants C-tier, especially if Lotad is D or E due to Lombre stage (which is a bit longer, but by one major fight)
By the way, are we sure Vileplume is B? I know it evolves earlier, but the Gloom period was still horrible for me.
I've mentioned this before, but I'm a steadfast believer in the Route 119 Oddish catch. You skip all those early game moments where Grass mons are resisted by just about everything and jump right to the Water segments where Grass mons are awesome. Also the Gloom Period is near unnoticeable since the Leaf Stone is just a Weather Station away.
Loving the amount of runs done lately, thought I'd join in some more.
First I would like to add to some recent discussion on a couple mons I've used:
Spheal: Originally I thought it was a shoe-in for C-rank, but having done more runs since that I think D makes the most sense for it. It's availability is too late and it's best match-up by far is Drake, which I believe is the reason it is in D in the first place.
Zangoose: Not too sure about the recent noms to S. I mean, it's a great poke and I even pondered it being placed for S, but I see noms for fighting types like Heracross and Hariyama for A, and even Blaziken and Breloom for S. Seems like a slippery slope to start letting more mons in S since being in A means you're already a pretty damn good mon. I think Zangoose is better than Heracross (and Pinsir), so they should be a tier away. Personally I think A tier is fine as is with the non-legendaries being Zangoose, Blaziken, Breloom, and Kadabra. They have all been nominated for S in the past (maybe not Kadabra?), but that just shows how equal and fitting they are in A. In short, Zangoose has a performance similar to Breloom and Blaziken with an availability that's still pretty early. Heracross is a bit late and imo not as good as these 3, so it should stay in B. I'll get to that more in a second.
I did a Sapphire bug-only run with these critters:
Despite being a "monotype run" I made sure to raise the team as I would any other run and try to give everyone a chance at all the major battles. In fact it's possible it made me able to assess each of them more because of a "counterpart" on the team i.e. Masquerain/Beautifly, Ninjask/Shedinja. The first thing you may notice is the low rankings many of these guys currently hold. In short, many of them will stay where they have been while a couple have proven themselves otherwise.
Pinsir D -> B
Currently, Pinsir lives in the D tier. Recently Ryota Mitaraidid a run with Pinsir and nom'd it for "B (or same tier as Heracross)". I would have to agree with the B tier nomination, however I do not think it is A tier material, which Heracross has been previously proposed for. Pinsir and Heracross are excellent mons, but their availability is too late to put them alongside the likes of Breloom and Blaziken. We all know that fighting types (or fighting type moves in Pinsir's case) destroy the lategame, but the fact that those two bugs are much later than 'loom and 'ken with arguably equal or lesser performance keeps them a tier below in my eyes.
Otherwise Pinsir learns Brick Break through level up and can utilize choice TMs such as Bulk up, EQ, Rock Tomb, and even Strength. So, pretty similar to Heracross, however I've seen the argument that it actually is favorable versus T&L, but in other areas I think it is weaker than Heracross. For example, during the Glacia fight Pinsir really was missing out on the fighting STAB and extra special bulk of Heracross which lessened it's ability to setup and clean sweep against Glalies and Sealeos. It was nice to not be super weak to flying, though, so it's hard to differentiate the two by a whole tier.
Both Heracross and Pinsir should live in B; I am not convinced they are A material. And honestly I'm not sure they hold a candle performance-wise to the other A-tierers despite availability.
Winona: technically you could fight her by backtracking but why? Rock tomb is crap
T&L - lv. 34: Not too great at the level since I had just caught it and I went and fought them immediately. However T&L in RS are kinda a joke. It could put in a little work with Brick Break, and at least it didn't get decimated by Psychics.
Wallace - lv. 38: can get off a couple bulk ups and 1-2HKO everything. It takes too much damage to sweep the whole team though and got stopped by Milotic, but not before doing some good damage.
E4 - lv. 46
Sydney: Hyper cutter stops Mightyena's intimdate and can bulk up while taking a sand attack. I equipped a persim berry for swagger, but it seemed to favor sand-attack. +1 Brick Break can pretty much OHKO most of the team (may be a range for Shiftry), just don't miss.
Pheobe: can setup on Dusclops if it doesn't curse (persim berry helps too for confuse ray). Tanks a lot of the hits after at least a bulkup and can 1-2HKO everything without much trouble. 3 bulkups barely OHKOs Dusclops #2, though. 2 bulk up EQ gets Sableye into red and OHKOs Bannettes.
Glacia: is barely outsped by Glalie so an XSpeed can help it set up a bulkup. Has trouble OHKOing everything with only 1 bulk up. Ice beam from Glalie is just barely a 2HKO at this level. On one run I somehow got 2 bulk ups while Glalie 1 messed around with hail and light screen, BB OHKOd after 2 bulk ups, OHKOd the seals to get to lv. 47 and outsped and OHKOd Glalie 2, Walrein was brought to red.
Drake: too weak to aerial aces and flamethrowers to do anything significant with rock tomb
Pinsir: Can bulk up and heal on Armaldo until 2HKO with EQ. Aggron is OHKO after. Metagross outsped so idk. On the winning run, Cradily somehow got 2 ancient power boosts and proceeded to destroy the team. plus spikes were up so Sheddy was useless. Had to potion stall out Cradily while bulking up. Confusion sucks, kept getting poisoned by sludge bomb and giga drain did 3HKO damage from the boost. 3 bulk ups caused bb to be a range 2HKO and finally finished it. Used an XSpeed during Armaldo and more potions to ensure the victory vs Metagross. EQ was only a 2HKO on armaldo even after 3 bulk ups. OHKO Meta and Aggron of course.
Volbeat (S) F -> E
I am nomming Volbeat in Sapphire to E tier on the grounds that the 1% RE encounter versus the 18% S encounter makes Volbeat actually usable. It also lets you more easily find one with Swarm, a helpful ability in some cases. Volbeat's weakest period is probably right when you catch it, where it enjoys the attention of an EXP. Share and nonexistent Wattson matchup. It is able to partake in Double team/confuse ray/moonlight shenanigans though, which makes it not totally helpless. Once you beat Watson, Volbeat will love that Shockwave TM and should know Tail glow and signal beam. Unlike Ryota MitaraiI didn't teach mine Thief.
The combination of signal beam, tail glow and shockwave/tbolt is what makes Volbeat not complete gutter trash in my opinion. Signal beam is a great STAB and Volbeat's 73 base attack is not too dreadful, letting it easily kill a lot of the early game NFEs. Even off its miserable special attack stat, Volbeat can take care of mons weak to electric and even whole route trainer teams if you tail glow first, especially when you get out to sea. Volbeat's 85 base speed is also respectable, causing it to outspeed more untrained opponents than you'd think.
Matchup-wise, it's not a total deadweight either except for the first 2 gyms you have it, but even then it easily takes down aqua grunts. In fact, I didn't do this, but Volbeat learns Protect at lv. 29 so Norman isn't a total wash theoretically, even if a 3 tail glow shockwave is a 3-4HKO on Slaking. Not very efficient, but not a total loss either. Winona is a pretty good matchup with tail glow and tbolt however it can't totally sweep because of Altaria, but it can make a nice dent. Tate&Liza are sorry leaders in RS but signal beam does pretty good damage. Wallace can be nearly swept if you teach Volbeat giga drain for Whiscash, but after 3 tail glows Milotic is only a 2HKO.
In the E4 it can handily take care of Sydney as long as you don't get intimidated. Cacturne is a OHKO. If you equip a persim berry then Sharpedo's swagger will let you OHKO it and Shiftry. Pheobe is not good, but it can at least 1v1 the first Dusclops with tail glow and maybe 2HKO a Banette if lucky. Glacia is not too great either but after a Tail glow it can 2HKO the seals, but doesn't like Surfs/Ice beams too much. Drake sucks just don't, and it can almost stand up to Steven's Skarmory. Actually, Claydol's ancientpower was a 3HKO on me while my signal beam was also a 3HKO, but after it got me into swarm range and healed up you can 2HKO it, then do some good damage to Cradily.
Point is, this thing isn't a world (vol)beater, but its much better encounter rate in Sapphire should be enough to bring it out of the trash tier. It's not a total deadweight and can contribute to many matchups, even if it's only 1v1ing a single mon on the team. Tail glow + tbolt + signal beam is all you need imo. Other moves are just nice to have once in a while like giga drain, brick break, and maybe thief. Quick attack was useful, too.
Wattson - lv. 20: can cheese with double team, confuse ray, and weak quick attacks and can possibly beat Voltorb, and if lucky Magnemite, but not both.
Flannery - lv. 25: no
Norman - lv. 27: gets killed too fast, tail glow shockwaves suck. I didn't level up mine for Protect (lv29), but probably would have made this a little better here.
Winona - lv. 33: can beat Swellow, Pelipper, and Skarm.
T&L - lv. 36: pretty good, signal beam does good damage
Wallace - lv. 39: Luvdisc confuse and attract is annoying but can set up at least 1 tail glow for OHKO Tbolt and can clean sweep if has giga drain and gets 3 tail glows. Can survive a water pulse here and there. Milotic is 2HKO even with 3 tailglows.
E4 - lv. 46
Sydney: signal beam destroys cacturne and shiftry, can also beat sharpedo if you don't hit yourself with swagger/use persim berry. one time mightyena kept sand-attacking pinsir so I switched in volbeat where it got it into swarm range for a OHKO signal beam on it, absol (outsped), and cacturne. sharpedo outsped.
Pheobe: can tail glow up to tbolt a bannette 1v1. doesn't take too much damage, not a bad pivot. can potentially 1v1 dusclops if it curses, shadow punch is a 4HKO while tail glow tbolt is 3HKO
Glacia: magnet can 3HKO glalie with brick break if it decides to mess around with hail and light screen. 1 tail glow 2HKOs the seals, but takes good damage from surf
Drake: nothing really
Steven: an 2HKO skarm after a tail glow with tbolt, but dies to aerial ace. if passed 2 swords dances from ninjask, was able to OHKO claydol and cradily and 2HKO armaldo before going down. one run it was just below half against claydol while a 3HKOing signal beam confused it to hit itself, next turn signal beam brought claydol to red and ancient power left volbeat with 6hp while claydol healed next turn. swarm signal beam 2HKOd after. got a crit beam on cradily right after.
Ok, those were the only 2 noms, but I just wanted to describe my experience with the rest of my party.
Surskit F -> .......F
What a cool mon, really. If Surskit wasn't total poo and was found more than 1% of the time, I'd rank Masquerain as a solid E rank. I have seen literally no discussion on this thing so if you're curious read on.
With only bubble, Surskit is essentially immune to the nonstop growls that come your way this early in the game. It can bubble against Roxanne's geodudes but that's it. Nosepass is a hard stop. Brawly isn't too great a matchup either. Once you get to it's evolution stage lv. 22, don't do it. You must evolve after you learn bubblebeam at lv. 25, your best move for a while despite not even getting STAB. Actually, Masquerain's Special attack isn't too terrible at 80, so you're going to want to dedicate it as a "special attacker". Wattson is a dumpster fire, so don't even try.
The next bizarre move you'll want is Water sport. Yes, this is the only time ever where this move is useful, and that's against Flannery. Masquerain actually is a decent matchup against her due to its time as a waterling. Water sport essentially makes it resistant to fire, undoing its natural typing. If you are strong enough, you can OHKO Flannery's Slugma and actually SURVIVE Torkoal's Overheat with about 50% remaining. Wow. Bubblebeam is a 3HKO and Torkoal is stuck wondering where it went wrong, just don't get too attracted or paralyzed. And don't fight Norman with it, your best move is still weakass bubblebeam off nonSTAB'd 80 base special, don't forget that.
After this, you will unlock perhaps Masquerain's greatest asset: Ice Beam. You could even get it earlier if you want to cough up the Pokedollars, but this is presumably the Abandoned ship one. You don't want to fight Winona without it. Masquerain can take on Swellow, Altaria, and potentially Skarm if you intimidate it first.
Oh yeah I forgot, this thing has Intimidate, causing it to survive physical attacks it has no business surviving.
Anyway, makes for a decent secondary vs. T&L even if BBeam does shit damage but at least it can survive some hits with that beefy 82 special defense.
If you give it giga drain, it can maybe do something against Wallace, but probably not. Whiscash outspeeds and can amnesia to make giga drain a 3-4HKO. Yikes.
Once you get to lv. 47 it learns Silver wind... I didn't do that though since it can already 2HKO Sydney's Sharpedo, Cacturne and Shiftry with its special moves. During Pheobe it will sit on the bench. Glacia, is good for absorbing hits to heal your more useful mons while it giga drains Sealeo.
And then comes Drake, the reason I had to see Masquerain through to the end with its awesome Ice moves... yeah it can't sweep without some XSpeed and XSpecial support, but it only really needs 1 XSpecial and 2 XSpeeds at the level I was at (46). Very satisfying to sweep Drake with a Masquerain after setting it up. Intimidate is very helpful here since it can survive a Shelgon Tomb and Flygon Fly.
Can't do diddly squat against Steven.
What I'm trying to say is... Masquerain is actually an OK Pokemon, it just suffers largly from the 1% encounter rate and endurance test of getting to lv. 25 as a Surskit. Ignoring the Surskit phase, Masquerain performed on an E-rank level, and honestly was more impressive than Beautifly. If you want something fun to run, use this.
I would nominate it to E in a second if its encounter rate were better. And if Surskit sucked less eggs
Roxanne - lv. 15: 2HKO (red damage) Geodudes, Geodudes 2HKO (red damage) back. No change against Nosepass; bubble does so little.
Brawly - lv. 16: bubble does crap damage to Machop and Makuhita and they kill faster.
Wattson - lv. 19: no
Flannery - lv. 30: can OHKO both Slugma. Survives Torkoal overheat at 50% after water sport. 3HKO with bubblebeam, have to not get paralyzed/attracted too much since body slam is a 4ishKO.
Norman - lv. 30: can take a few hits but not doing much back
Winona - lv. 33: can 1v1 Swellow, Altaria, possibly Skarm after intimidate.
T&L - lv. 36: decent secondary and can survive hits, but bubblebeam isn't great damage
Wallace - lv. 38: Whiscash outspeeds and can amnesia so giga drain becomes a 3-4HKO
E4
Sydney: giga drain 2HKOs sharpedo, takes minimal damage from its moves. ice beam 2HKOs shiftry, extrasensory does minimal damage, swagger sucks tho. maybe it could get some OHKOs if it had silver wind on cac and shif.
Pheobe: sucks
Glacia: sucks. can take a couple hits while healing the team. giga drain is a 4HKO on sealeo
Drake: blizzard barely OHKOs shelgon and ice beam is 2HKO. on the flygon with sandstorm, passed an xspecial and speed from ninjask to sweep the rest of the team. flygon was weakened with an intimidate, but still outsped after +1 speed. on one run ninjask only passed +1 spd and spatt, but used potions to use one more of each when flygon flew up. not sure if 2 xspecials are needed, everything was OHKOd with ibeam and altaria blizzard with only 1. +2 OHKOs altaria ice beam.
Steven: Intimidates stuff
Speaking of Beautifly..
Wurmple E -> ...E
Straight up this Pokemon is not very good at all. Like I said, I feel that Masquerain is more useful in the long term. And raising a Wurmple is annoying if you didn't get a Silcoon. How exactly is this better than wading around for a Surskit?
But once you get a Beautifly at the low level 10, it goes to work. You can Harden up and pray that Nosepass' rock tomb keeps missing while you absorb it to death.
Brawly is its peak moment, absolutely destroying everything in sight with the powerful gust and brushing off everything that hits it.
And then Beautifly becomes nothing more than a measly route sweeper. There are pretty much 0 decent matchups after this. Giving it Psychic doesn't help it that much in my experience. You could teach it Aerial ace or even shadow ball if you really wanted to. Giga drain through level up is nice though.
It's not a totally weak and useless mon, it just has mostly unfavorable matchups after Brawly. T&L is OK and for Wallace it can take down at least 1 non-Milotic with Giga drain. It can handle itself against a few of Sydney's mons, and can giga drain Glacia's Sealeos. That's about it. Even Masquerain had better matchups than this thing, but at least it has an encounter rate greater than 1%.
I'm just gonna talk about both Ninjask and Shedinja at once.
Both E -> E
Nincada is terrible until lv. 25 when you'll want to evolve it after learning Swords dance, assuming you want to use Shedinja. If not, get out ASAP with Ninjask only at lv. 20.
Nincada is useless against Roxanne and useless against Brawly. Wattson was actually not a terrible matchup for Ninjask. If you are able to SD 3 times, you can 2HKO Magneton and Voltorb and Magneton is a 3HKO, but shockwave will OHKO Ninjask. Shedinja can attempt fighting the Mags due to its Wonderguard, but between Thunder wave and supersonic you're probably gonna hit yourself. Voltorb has rollout, so no.
Flannery is a no-go for Shedinja, but Ninjask can score some KOs with Dig.
Norman is a no-go for Shedinja since everything has faint attack, but Ninjask can Dig against Slaking to whittle it down on its off-turns.
Winona eats both for brunch.
T&L resists all of Ninjask moves. Sometimes I got lucky with Sheddy where they didn't attack it and it did some good damage with Shadow ball.
Shedinja is actually decent against Wallace if it doesn't hit itself against Luvdisc. SD up and Shadow ball everything. Ninjask is too weak to take ice beams, but can also SD up and do some work.
Against the E4, Shedinja is mostly useless except against a few choice mons. Namely Walrein if there's no hail up. Ninjask is a nice E4 support mon since it should have Baton pass by now to pass on speed and dances. Together, they can sweep Pheobe with the right setup. Ninjask can pass boosts during any of the E4 matchups, which can be very handy.
Overall, I'd say Ninjask is the better of the two (or at least more consistent). For the first half of the game I was thinking Shedinja should drop to F, but it sort of redeemed itself in the end. Still, not a wonderful mon, and Ninjask has a bit more utility. I would say Ninjask is on the upper end of E and Shedinja on the lower end of it. Shedinja is simply too gimmicky and frankly its gimmicks are few and far in between. The crappy Nincada phase doesn't help either.
Summary:
Pinsir D -> B: Should not have been as low as D. C at the lowest, but A is too high since it's not a real showstopper like the other A tiers.
Volbeat (S) F -> E: 18% encouter rate in Sapphire up from 1% in Ruby/Emerald makes it a bit more efficient to pick up. It is admittedly a decent mixed attacker with its nice STAB signal beams and tail glow electric coverage. Make a good appearance in many matchups.
Masquerain F: Like I said, I would nom this to E if you could catch it as a Masquerain with an encounter rate much higher than 1%. A decent early game mon that can actually contribute for the whole game. Actually can take on Drake with some support. The fact that it is still not too great and so hard to find keep it bottom tier for now, unfortunately.
Beautifly E: Not great by any means but it will get you by for the super early game. I can't justify it dropping but I lean towards lower E.
Ninjask E: Probably one of the upper E ranks that is let down by the slog of a raising Nincada. Can decently support the team during the E4 with baton passing and can also take down some opponents itself after a swords dance or two.
Shedinja E: Gimmicky whatever mon. Lower end of E. For the first majority of the game honestly I'd put it in F. It's not the easiest to train and keeping it until the end for a couple autowins is pretty inefficient.
Help convince me that Masquerain is not E or that Beautifly and Shedinja are not F. I found Masquerain's performance to be better throughout than Sheddy or Beautifly's, which potentially offsets it's terrible encounter rate. Nincada stage is debatably worse or equal to Surskit. Wurple -> Silcoon farming can potentially be just as time consuming to get that 1% encounter.
Any other opinions on Masquerain? Just curious since I haven't seen a single other run in this thread with it.
Did a run on Sapphire with Treecko, Ralts, Skarmory and Kyogre.
Treecko seems like a clear C tier to me. It's equal to a B tier until the first gym and after it gets Leaf Blade, but the period in the middle is just super disappointing. It even had problems beating Plusles and Minuns at a certain point of the game (I think it 4-5hkod, while getting hit by Thunder Wave a bunch of times). You would think it was because I didn't pickup Miracle Seed or had a bad nature/Ivs... but I had all of that! It even had a Modest nature with 30-31 ivs in special attack(no idea how I got that lucky), but Bullet Seed is just a truly awful move for that point of the game. I was actually thinking this while playing the game "man, level 27 is such a ridiculous level for Leaf Blade", but then I got there and realized it was actually 29, ouch. It needs to roll high with Bullet Seed to do well in the 2nd gym, it sucks against the 3rd, 4th and 6th... I would lean closer to B if it was more consistent against the Elite 4, but it legitimately has a lot of issues dealing with accuracy drops among other things, while not having enough raw power to make up for it. (for the record, I don't think the detour to get Dragon Claw should be considered a negative. since it's so short. I also found Earthquake to only make a difference against Tentacruels, who still get handled fine by Leaf Blade).
Ralts should not be S tier. It 100% performs like an S tier, but only starting from level 26 when it gets Psychic and should already have access to Shock Wave. Now, I don't think the 2 level grind makes any difference at all (3 fights and it gets Confusion, so whatever), but it has way too many issues to be S tier:
-It has a slow level up rate
-It consistently gets out sped as Ralts (Pokemons like Zigzagoon just out speed it every time).
-It is horrible against the first gym
-While it technically can sweep the 3rd gym after 6 Calm Minds, confusion and paralysis makes the setup very annoying to do (and even then you don't 1hko the last one), so that's one less potential good match up
-Before becoming Gardevoir, its power is a lot weaker than what any S tier has (it also struggled with Minuns and Pluses at the exact same point of the game as Treecko, for the same reasons)
-Since Confusion is its only good move for a long time, it can run into pp issues (happened twice)
-Before getting Shock Wave and Thunderbolt, it always has to switch against the Poochyenas that grunts love using
-Much later on, as Gardevoir, it has issues against the first two E4 members (Evasion+Accuracy Drops makes the first one awkward to setup against, while the second one just hits too hard with Shadow Ball/Shadow Punch)
Those are far more issues than the current S tiers (Mudkip and Alakazam) have. Zangoose (who should be S, imo) also has a number of issues similar to those 2, while having pretty much the same boss performance as Ralts (Ralts does surprisingly well against the 2nd gym, where Zangoose isn't available; Zangoose smashes the 2 E4 members Gardevoir has issues with; Gardevoir does a lot better against the Champion; in other match ups they both sweep pretty effortlessly, with both only having a little bit of issues against Norman, but still getting the sweep regardless). So with all that in mind, Ralts should be A tier at best, as it is far too flawed.
Skarmory seemed like a C tier for the longest time, but just borderline. What makes me lean on D is its fairly unimpressive E4 performance. Its route sweeping was actually a lot better than I expected, especially when it got Air Cutter and then Fly+Aerial Ace to complement the Steel Wing tm. However, in boss fights it's far too inconsistent, due to its really weak coverage. Sometimes it does well against half of the opponent's team and can't do anything against the rest.
Kyogre is significantly better than Groudon, thanks to the ridiculousness that is Surf/Ice Beam/Thunder(tm)/Calm Mind, but still not as crazy as Rayquaza due to the level gap. A tier, as expected.
So for the ones I ran recently (and only those), for the sake of having a quick comparison of my own opinions:
S: Zangoose, Alakazam
A: Torchic, Kyogre, Groudon, Ralts
B:
C: Treecko
D: Skarmory
Can you provide a bit more information on your experience with Ralts? What you're reporting is pretty significantly more negative than what I've experienced. I'm wondering if the Emerald/Sapphire gap influences this at all, or if there were some gaps in use that could have been overcome with a different strategy (Ralts can beat Roxanne for example), or if the lesser number of trainers in S influenced the Exp available which cascaded down a bit. Certainly I can't say I had the same experience as you did regarding Zigzagoons etc, my experience was that Ralts/Kirlia were entirely self-sufficient from around level 13 on, and mostly so once it got confusion. The only down period I experienced outside of the initial two levels was the 27-29 gap. Particularly since Kirlia can comfortably sweep Brawly, Wattson, and Flannery (stick a Cheri Berry for Wattson and Voltorb can't do anything to you), I'm not sure what distinction you're seeing between Ralts and Abra, trading off a stronger Ralts period for a weaker ten levels of Kirlia they're functionally equivalent in my view, with the stronger phys def more than trading off fairly for the extra speed.
Just more information on your experience would be beneficial (levels, strategy), I can't say I had many of the experiences you seem to have had (e.g. running out of Confusion).
It's certainly possible that playing on Sapphire might have led to less experience compared to playing on Emerald. But regarding the other points:
Roxanne: I understand that Ralts can win, but it seems relatively luck reliant to pull off since Rock Tomb is a clean 2hko. I guess "horrible" is an exaggeration, but I wouldn't call it a good match up at all.
Getting out sped by Zigzagoons as Ralts: This is something I very clearly remember. Though the number of trainer difference between Sapphire and Emerald could certainly have contributed to it, by making me stay at a lower level. It's worth noticing that until I got Gardevoir I was fighting every trainer available (including the ones in the Trick House and in the Cycling Road, though those were already as Kirlia). It couldn't have been a problem of having a party that's too big, since the only other Pokemon at the time was Treecko (I was like level 28-29 when I caught Skarmory If I am not mistaken).
Brawly and Flannery: No arguments against this. My experience was the same.
Wattson: Well yeah, but Wattson from my experience just kept spamming Thunder Wave+confusion status, so a Cheri Berry, while helpful (and I honestly should have remembered to equip one, since I ended up just using them as battle items to cure it), wouldn't have changed too much I believe. While it sweeps, it needs the setup to do it, and the setup just takes a while because of Wattson interfering+using steel types.
Abra vs Ralts: Well, assuming Abra is level 9 (all you need to do is enter the first stairs in the cave to guarantee that, so no need for Flash), that means 7 levels of babying. However, as soon as you evolve it, it 1hkos everything that isn't a resist/immunity for a while, which is in a completely different level than what Ralts/Kirlia is doing at that point (it also 2hkos the steel types in the Cycling road iirc, while Kirlia was slowly chipping away at them). Until you get Gardevoir at level 30, that's 30-16=14 levels of being outclassed a lot (or 26-16=10, if we go by getting Psychic), with a slightly faster experience growth on top of that. I do think Gardevoir and Alakazam are relatively similar power wise though, and I actually prefer Gardevoir by a bit late game.
Running out of Confusion: From catching it up to Rustboro City it got out of pp at the later part of it (The way I play is always trying to keep everyone at the same level, so it was fighting a lot more than Treecko to make up the level difference, which I guess could have been the reason?). The 2nd time was going from Slateport to Mauvile (didn't run out, but I was close to so I had to backtrack to a Pokemon center to heal).
This is a pretty brief period anyway, not to mention mons like Zig are even that threatening; I don't mind the likes of Zigzagoon and Meditite outrunning Ralts but I end up beating them anyway. That said, I don't think I even suffered from this issue as much as you claimed, so I suspect this may be a low Speed IV in play.
It beats the Geodudes just fine so the bad matchup is kinda exaggerated, but honestly most mons at this point can't (comfortably) 1v1 Nosepass without evolving first, so I wouldn't put Ralts down for this. That said, even Ralts could potentially 1v1 Nosepass with enough Growl spams if Nosepass doesn't click Rock Tomb often.
-While it technically can sweep the 3rd gym after 6 Calm Minds, confusion and paralysis makes the setup very annoying to do (and even then you don't 1hko the last one), so that's one less potential good match up
Yeah I would say Wattson is one of Kirlia's low points in the game; there are too many variables like paralysis, confusion, Sonicboom, or even Voltorb's Rollout that can easily throw a wrench into the setup plan that I usually sit Kirlia out of this. The only easy setup fodder that Wattson has is Emerald Electrike, but even I sometimes feel pressured to kill it quick if it sets up too many Howls, which puts me at a worse spot vs Magneton/Manectric later.
-Before becoming Gardevoir, its power is a lot weaker than what any S tier has (it also struggled with Minuns and Pluses at the exact same point of the game as Treecko, for the same reasons)
I can definitely understand Kirlia having down periods: while Texas Cloverleaf 's down period is lv 27-29, mine is the road to Shock Wave. That said, I don't feel like these down periods are enough to drag down the smooth sailing Kirlia has once it reaches Psychic, and especially more so once it evolves.
-Much later on, as Gardevoir, it has issues against the first two E4 members (Evasion+Accuracy Drops makes the first one awkward to setup against, while the second one just hits too hard with Shadow Ball/Shadow Punch)
To be fair, Sidney's Mightyena is almost designed to counter turn 1 setup strategies, but his Shiftry is a pushover for being set up on as long as you have the Yellow Flute. Gardevoir would prefer to sit out the Phoebe fight, but if it has to Garde could try stacking some X Defends to withstand Sableye's Shadow Balls as best it can and try to set up (and your Garde had to be female on top of that), or even try to get lucky and hope her lead Dusclops never clicks Curse and set up on that instead.
I can understand some gripes about Ralts's underwhelming early-game performance, but having some of the best prospects for mid-game and especially late-game is absolutely worth the tradeoff. It's an early game investment that already starts showing results by earlyish-mid-game and pays increasingly greater dividends as you progress.
Treecko drops from B to C
Machop (No Trade) drops from C to D
Trapinch drops from C to D
Oddish (Bellossom) drops from C to D
Kecleon drops from D to E
Pinsir rises from D to B
Meditite rises from C to B
Seviper rises from E to D
Nosepass rises from F to E
Most of these have been gone over in the last few pages.
Re: Zangoose - keep in mind the Pokemon in A are all really damn good. Kadabra is probably the worst of the lot so Zangoose sits with Pokemon who are either earlier than it and perform to similar levels for a longer period or come late but completely trivialize the entire remaining game. Zangoose is outstanding and I'm not too strongly opposed to S but I do think it better fits with the A rank mons.
I know I said I am gonna be on hiatus, however, since Heracross was put in A (I personally thought B was fine), I'd like to give some spotlight to Machop (Trade) -> A. I personally believe Machamp is much better than Heracross, as it comes earlier and is good both for Flannery and Norman. For me, it's a huge killer to be consistently good against Norman. Machamp should still be performing on a similar level like Heracross and I cannot really think of huge differences. I think my Machamp even managed to do somewhat ok against Drake. Link to first logs of Machamp. I did raise the possibility of an A-tier there, but given Machamp wasn't really discussed in the thread as a whole, it was somewhat difficiult to really come up with an appropriate tier.
Also, is there a particular reason you didn't put Pinsir in the same tier as Heracross? I believe I mentioned a few times that they both performed pretty much identically. I know I nommed it to B when I ran with it, but that was because Heracross was B-tier at that time and I said they should just be lumped in the same tier.
But anyways, I think what I layed out for Machamp could still make it an A-tier, but I am gonna leave it up to you. I am not gonna push for it too much.
Having a bad matchup vs Emerald Wattson shouldn't be considered a downside. If anything, having a good match vs Wattson should be praised highly. I can literally count the mons that do well in that match in one hand: Combusken, Marshtomp, Breloom, Geodude, Hariyama. Everything else crumbles to Magneton or gets hosed badly from Voltorb's SelfDestruct or Manetric's absurd SpA+Thunderwave. I wouldn't even call Combusken and Hariyamas as clean counters since they don't absorb Shockwaves well at all and don't appreciate getting Static hacked all day .
I admit that Hariyama is worse than Breloom. But do Hariyama's speed, lack of water resistance, inability to hit Duskull (none of which hinder it in major battles), and weaker STAB attack in the late game really justify separating them by a whole tier? Why do people say Hariyama's late game performance is underwhelming when it's at least as good as Breloom against just about every late-game gym and Elite 4 member (and significantly better against Winona, Phoebe, and Glacia)?
Why does Absol remain in B when the swords dance set can solo the last 4 gyms, Sidney, and Phoebe? I'm aware that 2 people used Absol and said it wasn't good enough for A, but none of them used swords dance.
Hariyama is slow. Hariyama gets hit a lot. Hariyama has problems killing more than one thing at a time without sucking potions. Hariyama will often get hit before it puts in a Bulk Up. These all compound with each other to make Yama have a comparably bad end game. Water/elec/grass resist is generically useful too.
I think Absol is getting penalized for late arrival but I agree it could be A
So what if Hariayma gets hit a lot? Does it faint a lot? It didn't when I used it. If it's because my Hariyama had unusually high defense IVs, do IVs really make that much of a difference?
Hariyama has problems killing more than one thing at a time without sucking potions.
Unless you're referring specifically to Tate and Liza or Wallace, this is false. I used Hariyama in Emerald last year and logged the major battles. Between Flannery and Glacia (inclusive, but excluding Tate and Liza), Hariyama was able to take out at least 3 Pokemon against every major opponent (and soloed a bunch of them) without using any bag items during battle. Did you ignore my logs? If you read them, do you think I accidentally did something unfair to my Hariyama, or am I outright lying?
Water/elec/grass resist is generically useful too.
Outside of Wallace team, are there any specific Pokemon that actually threaten Hariyama with water or grass attacks? If both Breloom and Hariyama can OHKO or 2HKO every water or grass attacker outside Wallace's team, then those resistances are not generally useful.
Another advantage that Breloom has over Hariyama is Mach Punch, which not only can help alleviate the need for X Speed to sweep with Breloom, but emphasizes the difference between one cleanly sweeping without taking damage and the other needing to be a Potion/X Speed sponge to achieve the same (especially during the period where Hariyama is stuck with Vital Throw for its main STAB, which also hinders its route clearing efficiency). Sure, Hariyama has a sizeable advantage over Breloom vs Flannery and Glacia, but Breloom is decidedly more efficient in matchups that favor Fighting power, such as Wattson, Norman, Sidney, and to a lesser extent Steven.
D to C
I believe I made this nomination before, and I'm still supporting it since Girafarig is a underrated mon imo. While it requires sizable investments in both the Psychic and Thunderbolt TMs and later the Calm Mind TM, but otherwise it is quite efficient for immediate use upon being picked up. Thunderbolt allows Girafarig to contribute vs Winona and in general is a solid advantage vs its fellow Psychic brethren that don't get Thunderbolt as it gives Girafarig better sweeping prospects vs 8th Gym and the Elite 4, with its Normal-typing giving it a uniquely positive matchup vs Phoebe as well. But I've said all this before; the new gimmick I've found recently with Girafarig testing is that it's the best user of Early Bird Rest, which complements its Calm Mind boosting very well on top of being an effective Potion-saver, further boosting its efficiency. Early Bird Rest allowed Girafarig to clean sweep Wallace/Juan, Phoebe, (Emerald) Glacia, and (Ruby & Sapphire) Drake without having to waste a single healing item, which is just stupidly efficient.
Another advantage that Breloom has over Hariyama is Mach Punch, which not only can help alleviate the need for X Speed to sweep with Breloom, but emphasizes the difference between one cleanly sweeping without taking damage and the other needing to be a Potion/X Speed sponge to achieve the same (especially during the period where Hariyama is stuck with Vital Throw for its main STAB, which also hinders its route clearing efficiency).
Breloom is better against Wattson, but I think I've already established that both Breloom and Hariyama can sweep Norman and Sidney without using potions or X items. So what if Breloom takes 3 or 4 fewer turns to do it, or doesn't lose as much HP in the battle? Doesn't everyone heal their team immediately after each gym or Elite 4 battle? Also I've never played RS, but I'm pretty sure that after teammates take out his Skarmory and Metagross, both of them can easily set up and sweep Steven's remaining 4 Pokemon.
Another advantage that Breloom has over Hariyama is Mach Punch, which not only can help alleviate the need for X Speed to sweep with Breloom, but emphasizes the difference between one cleanly sweeping without taking damage and the other needing to be a Potion/X Speed sponge to achieve the same (especially during the period where Hariyama is stuck with Vital Throw for its main STAB, which also hinders its route clearing efficiency). Sure, Hariyama has a sizeable advantage over Breloom vs Flannery and Glacia, but Breloom is decidedly more efficient in matchups that favor Fighting power, such as Wattson, Norman, Sidney, and to a lesser extent Steven.
D to C
I believe I made this nomination before, and I'm still supporting it since Girafarig is a underrated mon imo. While it requires sizable investments in both the Psychic and Thunderbolt TMs and later the Calm Mind TM, but otherwise it is quite efficient for immediate use upon being picked up. Thunderbolt allows Girafarig to contribute vs Winona and in general is a solid advantage vs its fellow Psychic brethren that don't get Thunderbolt as it gives Girafarig better sweeping prospects vs 8th Gym and the Elite 4, with its Normal-typing giving it a uniquely positive matchup vs Phoebe as well. But I've said all this before; the new gimmick I've found recently with Girafarig testing is that it's the best user of Early Bird Rest, which complements its Calm Mind boosting very well on top of being an effective Potion-saver, further boosting its efficiency. Early Bird Rest allowed Girafarig to clean sweep Wallace/Juan, Phoebe, (Emerald) Glacia, and (Ruby & Sapphire) Drake without having to waste a single healing item, which is just stupidly efficient.
I'm seriously skeptical about whether dedicating a moveslot to a recovery move on any mon can be considered efficient. To me that moveslot would be better used on Shadow Ball or Return, abusing Girafarig's mixed capabilities and complementing its coverage greatly. Even if those moves aren't really necessary I doubt the title of "potion saver" is all that impressive. Maybe RSE's budget is a bit tighter but even in the stingiest of pokemon games buying potions is rarely ever an issue. If you need a filler move, I'd go to a screen or status move long before Rest, even factoring in Early Bird (Girafarig can also have Inner Focus, and it's a safari mon already, which further complicates your strategy), and I don't even think Girafarig needs a filler option. Aside from that though, I like your Girafarig analysis a lot.
