Pokemon of the Week #7 Dragonite

[alexwolf]

252 SpA Timid Ninetales using Fire Blast (Sun) vs 252 / 252 + Hippo: 45.23 - 53.57%

Ninetales fails to OHKO, or even 2HKO, while Hippo OHKOes back.

252 SpA Timid Ninetales using Fire Blast (Sun) vs 252 / 4 + Hippo: 66.66 - 78.57%

Hippo still survives and OHKOes back. Dugtrio can never revenge kill Hippo after Tales dies btw, as EQ does 21.5% max to physically defensive Hippo.

 

[alkinesthetase]

Why would you want to lower physical bulk on Hippowdon just to be Genesect? It just seems like you either EV/IV Hippowdon to beat Genesect or EV to beat physical attackers; personally I'd prefer the latter.

pdef hippo has its uses, but sdef is a lot more useful in general right now imo, and if you're gonna run sdef hippo, you might as well go all the way and beat genesect while you're at it (seeing as the bastard is up at the top of stats, it's no small concern).

sdef has an easier time coming in on the usual shit in this metagame - while it's a less effective wall overall (seeing as generally if you wanna wall things, you'll be doing so on the side where you have more resistances and neutralities - hippo's main weaknesses are special), you gain the ability to switch in on weak stuff like scalds to nab that weather change.

also, in case it was not emphasized enough, the careful nature and 25 defense IV lets you !!BEAT GENESECT!! one on one. seriously that is freaking huge. instead of hippo getting crippled by a single +1 ice beam and never being able to switch in again, you take less than 50% and can actually kill genesect with eq (thanks to lefties adding up). every point of damage i get on that bastard is a moral victory for this metagame. i actually run 4 game plans for genesect, on one of my current teams (twave latias, sdef rotom-W, sdef lefties tran - cause shed shell SUX, and ofc the sdef hippo).

ofc in general though pdef hippo does a better job of walling stuff. most of ground's resistances and neutralities are on the physical side; you need the extra physdef to take stuff like mence outrages. it's harder to get in that hippo what with all the hydro pumps and fire blasts flying around though, which is what i appreciate about the special defense. it's not like hippo will be eating specs hydro pumps and walking away any time soon, but in general, it's easier to get into play that way.

 

[chimpact]

i understand that you take physical hits a lot worse if you don't invest in the defenses at all, but you have 5 other pokemon on your team that can potentially take those hits for hippo anyway. There's no reason for you to run spdef hippo without any answer to MoxieMence's outrages, CB Scizor etc.

The great thing about spdef hippo is that it takes hp ices from pokemon like Zapdos/thundurus and psychic from jirachi really well. Although you can't do much back to flying type (unless you carry ice fang) at least you can rack up hazard damage with whirlwind.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Echoing what Alkinesthetase (who finally changed his avatar lol) said. Lowering down ivs is to not give Genesect a special attack boost from download. Genesect is currently the number 1 ou pokemon in usage so changing ivs exclusively for Genesect isnt as bad as it sounds. Especially seeing as it is only 6 ivs. Anyway keep up the discussoin people are there any other Hippowdon sets people have been using aside from the def and sp def ones?

 

[yee]

Without Genesect in the metagame, I would never go further than to run 252 HP / 4 def / 252 SpD Impish on my Hippo. This is already enough to survive a Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor which is the most extreme useful thing Hippo can do on the special side. It's not just losing 6 IVs to beat Genesect, running Careful is a compromise as well by eating away at that defense for no other reason. However, it is very worth it to beat Genesect and until we get around to banning it I would recommend that spread on most Hippos. Being able to set up Stealth Rock risk free early in the game is incredibly valuable.

 

[Dracule Mihawk]

I have to agree with Yee, I've found great use for Sdef Hippodown nowadays. As already mentioned by others, it has reliable recovery and be quite a bane to the standard sun teams running Genesect + Dugtrio. But the lack of defense can be quite annoying, for example now Lucario can OKHO you with a +2 Close Combat. But I would normally run a physical wall anyway so it's not too much of a problem. I will always prefer to choose Hippo over tar just for the fact he can not be trapped by trio can be quite potent against sun.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

I personally find that phys. def Hippo works great in tandem with any T-tar variant, because they can take hits from both sides and change the weather while doing so, which gives really solid weather control. The only problem is their combined Grass/Water weakness, so putting them with a dragon or a grass type is a good idea. Celebi / Latias; with Twave and / or HP Fire to bait and catch Genebitch.

 

[Dracule Mihawk]

I do quite like Dual sand as well, I've had good success with double sand teams. I generally use Band tar and physical def hippo in tandem. Keldeo makes a good partner as tyranitar takes out the lati@s, while hippo provides a strong defensive backbone. And the best thing is that if tar is lost, the weather war is not lost as hippo is in the wings.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Not absolutely on topic, though I've had a great idea for this thread.

How about adding more of a competitive edge for this topic - make it a challenge to ladder as high as you can on the leaderboard with the given PotW on your team. You'd post the sets (possibly along with the rest of your team) you had used when you had reached your peak. It would work in a similar style to the Dark Horse and Defense of the Titans projects, except you would have to use the one particular Pokémon that was being studied. The person with the highest ladder peak would win the PotW challenge for that week.

This isn't to say I dislike the current format of the thread - it's provoking some interesting discussions, though I think encouraging people to simply get out there and use the Pokémon in practice, rather than just theorymon or have a recollection of past experiences would be highly beneficial.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Attention all an important anouncement! As shown above me DarkBlazeR suggested a ladder challenge in the PotW and so did Pocket. I also noticed that the LC PotW has a ladder challenge and i really like the idea! From now on if you make it into the top 10 in Pokemon Showdown using the PotW and post proof in this thread you will be added to the PotW Hall of fame!

Also as of now good sets that get posted will be added into the OP in importable format so people can locate them easily and use them.

 

[doughboy]

:OO Hippowdon is one of, if not my favorite, Pokemon right now in the BW2 meta (and design wise too). After BW2 came around with all the Dugtrio teams Hippowdon has replaced Choice Band Tyranitar as my favorite weather inducer. Even if I could use Choice Band Tyranitar to its fullest extent, Hippowdon is among one of my favorite Pokemon to use in OU since it can win weather wars effectively and tank a variety of hits.

My opinion is pretty strong that Specially Defensive Hippowdon is a waste. IMO you sacrifice way too much of Hippowdon's ability to combat physical attackers to the point where they can overwhelm you; even though the extra special bulk is nice. The physically defensive set's ability to deter most physical threats in tier is just to damn hard to give up. Hippowdon is the best counter to physical Dragon's outside of some Steel-types. This is important because you do not have to risk your Steel-type getting fried from Salamence, Dragonite, or Garchomp to be unable to wall the next threat coming in. Effectively, Hippowdon+physically bulky Steel (especially Ferrothorn) can shut down all physical Dragons, which are everywhere right now with the drop of Chomp and the popularity of Mence (due to outpacing Gene), much like TTar+bulky Steel does to Special Dragons. Physically Defensive Hippo also counters Terrakion much more reliably now. People have forgo the Life Orb Double Dancing variant for a Substitute+Salac Berry one. Without Life Orb, Terrakion is much harder pressed to wear down and take down Hippowdon with Close Combat. At +2, Salac vs Life Orb is a very big difference. Stopping stuff life SD Lucario, CB TTar, physical Jirachi's, and the Landorus' is nice too.

Salac
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 252-297 (60 - 70.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252, 255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294, 297)

Life Orb
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Hippowdon: 328-386 (78.09 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(328, 331, 335, 339, 343, 347, 351, 355, 359, 363, 367, 370, 374, 378, 382, 386)

On the whole Ice Fang vs Whirlwind dilemma: physically defensive should use Ice Fang and specially defensive should use Whirlwind. Carrying Ice Fang really enhances your ability to combat physical dragons, which is one physically defensive Hippowdon's big perks of specially defensive. Because of Sandstorm, Hippowdon actually has an 81% chance to KO Dragonite after SR. More importantly, it means you can pick of Scarf MoxieMence locked into Outrage. Lastly, it makes sure you can beat both Dnite and Mence at last-pokemon scenarios. Since specially defensive can not combat physical boosted Dragons directly, it should Whirlwind over Ice Fang. In general it is a better phazer/shuffler than the physically defensive set is too. The specially defensive set can stay in against a wider variety of targets, which is important because you can bring anything out with Whirlwind, and it will not be taking boosted physical hits when targets only stay in for 1 turn.

Out of curiosity, has anyone used this set with Sandstream? Hippowdon has a pretty great attack stat and it would make a great deterent for bulkier Politoed's to come in. Right now Life Orb Hippowdon is hitting less than 1% usage!

Hippowdon @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 228 HP / 28 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge
- Slack Off

 

[EnterRAYZORS]

less than 1% usage![/B]

Hippowdon @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 228 HP / 28 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Stone Edge
- Slack Off

Only less than 1%? I play PO or Showdown every day, and I have never seen a life orbed Hippowdon! However it looks cool! Aswell as hitting extremely hard and having good coverage (perfect) in its edge quake but also with its ice fang as Ice is really usefull in this metagame!

 

[Dracule Mihawk]

I've used life orb Hippo, but with sand force instead. He gets more power with that ability, but the merit from double sand cannot be denied. The impressive bulk coupled with life orb is excellent, it still checks unboosted physical sweepers and is able to hit hard. That base 112 atk is very good to abuse. You also use 84 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Def / 28 Spe spread on that hippo to be more physically defensive. I can see the need for sandstream more, as tar can be easily trapped by genedug therefore sand force on hippo can be seen to be worse option in this meta.

I've had quite a good use with the standard hippo set, but without sandstream. I've run a sandforce def hippo in sun to act as my physical wall, sr setter and good check against sand hard hitters. I saw it in a thread about using mons you wouldn't normally use in a certain weather, such a sun kingdra. I have to admit the sun hippo team of mine did good, and hippo pulled its own weight.

 

[Shammas]

Hippowdon has proved to be my favorite weather inducer in this metagame. It's easily the best stand-alone pokemon of all the weather inducers and it's such a nasty physical wall. The max HP/def set counters and KOs back the following threats for me-
-Terrakion
-Jirachi
-Stoutland
-Ninetales
-Dugtrio
-Lucario
-Scizor
-Infernape
-Toxicroak
-Metagross
On top of those, there are many others that are simply walled to hell and forced out. If I use any other weather inducer I feel like I've got either a useless pokemon or I'm running a gimmick set. Hippo just perfectly fits my style and makes sand my favorite weather.

 

[PDC]

Hippowdon is a sheer boss in this metagame with the gigantic prevelance of Genesect and Dugtrio combined together to trap opposing weather a users like Tyranitar and Ninetails. Hippowdon could care less about Dugtrio unless it is very low in health, but even them Dugtrio struggles to KO if it is physically defensive. Hippowdon can also be custom tailored to defeat Genesect with some changes to his IVs, which unlike the terrible Garchomp IV lowering actually does not take much away from your bulk if using the Specially Defensive set. Hippowdon however does more than just control weather for me, it acts as an actual asset to your team by being able to laugh at Terrakion, Lucario, Choice Scarf Salamence, and Garchomp all at the same time. Hippowdon deserves a lot more recognition as a weather inducer. He plays for the team in ways that others can't and in this metagame he is much more effective at a defensive role than Tyranitar. But aside from his defensive and supporter merits Hippowdon can also do a pretty cool offensive role which was actually mentioned above. Hippowdon gets the awesome Sand Force Ability from Dream World, which allows it to play a stronger and bulkier attacker role than Landorus can. Although it does have to be paired with Tyranitar to make this effective, it works quite well in practice. I have not used this set so far in BW2, but I remember I used in in BW1 and to great success at that. It surprised everybody I used in against and was very strong too. If I remember correctly, the team was Hippowdon / Tyranitar / Latias / Scizor / Rotom-W / Hydreigon. It was very fun to use, and I liked how Hydreigon and Hippowdon could do a 1-2 punch core of sorts. Expert Belt Hydreigon could lure in Skarmory and Rotom-W pretty well by faking a Choice Scarf set. While Hippowdon killed of Jirachi and Blissey with ease.

As alexwolf has shown us Hippowdon does a great job at winning the weather war based on his calcs, and it really has a great way of wrecking most opposing ones. It is not limited to just defensive teams like many people think either. It can work on practically any type of team. As TGMD has shown us it works great on even higher grades of offense and really showed how versatile it is on choosing spots for your weather inducer. Hippowdon is still criminally underrated however, but I finally feel people are starting to learn how useful he really is in this metagame. Although usage has no reflected this yet I am sure it will soon. Hopefully Hippowdon will eventually become at least a top 30 Pokemon and take it's place as a common weather inducer among us. As mentioned above it can work as a great defensive and offensive role depending on the set you give. It has some serious bonuses with a Specially Defensive set, being able to take weaker Special attacks while still having some serious physical bulk. It can then act as more of a mixed wall than a strictly physical one, which I think is pretty good. However I think yee really hit the nail on the head with his spread, as it gives Hippowdon all the bulk it needs Specially while still managing to beat even boosted physical attacks with confidence.

 

[chimpact]

Just a little nitpick but spdef hippo should be running 252 hp / 4 atk / 252 spdef @ careful. Youre taking ivs out of defense so it would be counterproductive to run def evs.

 

[Superpowerdude]

New PotW!

Celebi
Type: Grass / Psychic
Base Stats: 100 HP / 100 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 100 Spe
Abilities: Natural Cure

Notable Moves:
- Stealth Rock
- Thunderwave
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Earthpower
- Leaf Storm
- Recover
- Leech Seed
- Calm Mind
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass

Celebi is often overlooked for its massive seven weaknesses. However with useful resists to Fighting-type and Water-type Celebi is still highly valued for its supporting roles especially with acces to moves like Stealth Rock, Thunderwave, Leech Seed and Recover. Offensivly Celebi is no slouch either having acces to Nasty Plot and Calm Mind. Celebi is also blessed with great base 100 stats all across the board which further adds to its abililty to go offensive and defensive. How have you been using Celebi?

Ladder Challenge! If you make it to the top 10 on the ladder using Celebi please post proof hear and share you experience and you will be put into the PotW hall of fame! Also any good sets of the PotW posted will go into the PotW sets!

PoTW Hall Of Fame


PotW Sets

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Celebi @ Tanga Berry
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 120 SpD / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Psychic
- U-turn

By Articblast

Celebi @ Tanga Berry
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
- HP Fire/HP Ice
- Recover
- Psychic
- Thunderwave

By X5Dragon

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 220 SDef / 252 HP / 36 Spd
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Perish Song

By Scarfwynaut

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
Careful Nature
- Giga Drain / Psychic
- U-turn / Baton Pass
- Perish Song
- Recover

By Alexwolf

 

[Arcticblast]

I made this Celebi set a couple weeks ago and posted it in the Creative Movesets thread:

A set I've been tinkering with:

Celebi @ Tanga Berry
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 120 SpD / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Psychic
- U-turn

Basically, a lead that's almost guaranteed to get SR up turn 1. With Tanga Berry it takes about 83% from Expert Belt Genesect's +1 U-Turn and about 92% from from its +1 Ice Beam (currently the EVs give it +1 SpA, I'm trying to decide which boost to give it), at which point it can safely get out and either Recover or... well, die later. Psychic lets it hurt Tentacruel and fighters such as Breloom (Speed EVs outspeed 252 Jolly Breloom), Terrakion and Conkeldurr. U-Turn is primarily for momentum purposes. Does it beat Deoxys-D? Not really, but it can U-Turn out of whatever it does and go to a setup sweeper.

Again, I'm still messing around with how to work this set, so feedback is appreciated.

 

[TheStriker]

Breloom @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Nature: Adamant
Trait: Technician
-Mach Punch
-Bullet Seed
-Spore
-Swords Dance

More Bulk, Bad Speed even with 262 sucks

 

[Superpowerdude]

@The Striker Breloom was the PotW for week one this week is Celebi.

@Articblast that set looks very interesting i am going to try it!

 

[Wizarus]

Like I said in another thread, it's extremely difficult for me to actually consider using Celebi, when I can use Latias instead.

 

[X5Dragon]

I think the TC should put hyperlinks for pages where discussions for PoTW start, for example link to page 4 when Heatran first gets discussed.

Anyway, Celebi eh?



Celebi @ Tanga Berry
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
- HP Fire/HP Ice
- Recover
- Psychic
- Thunderwave

Tank, outspeeds Loom, and with T-wave for those switch ins (watch those Genesects come at you like flies staring at a blue light) you can make the opponent cry way too many times.

* Set needs to be tidied up a bit I suppose.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I haven't used Celebi in ages, Amoonguss generally fits the role better on my teams. I am a fan of the specially defensive spread when I used it. Let me pull it out of the rack and blow off the dust.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 220 SDef / 252 HP / 36 Spd
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Perish Song

Id imagine this baby would still be ok in this meta for a defensive team. The only thing that might be dubious is hidden power fire because outspeeding scizor and roasting it isn't the thing anymore because of Genesect. One could probably put stealth rock or psychic there, maybe reflect.

Anyone use this kind of celebi on a defensive team? Is HP-fire still good? If not what moves do you use? (Alexwolf be quite about u-turn no one likes you :3 )

 

[Superpowerdude]

great sets guys! keep up the discussion and remember to ladder with Celebi!

 

[alkinesthetase]

Like I said in another thread, it's extremely difficult for me to actually consider using Celebi, when I can use Latias instead.

to some extent this is true about celebi in general - it has a lot of competition as a bulky grass (amoong), bulky psychic (boy there are tons of guys in this department), etc. i have no experience with the sweeper sets; their niche remains i suppose but i'm not sure how good they are right now in the first place.

the real reason to use defensive celebi over, say, latias or amoonguss, is the movepool - perish song and heal bell are incredibly rare and frankly i would kill for them to be more commonly distributed. that fact alone makes celebi worth considering. it is also among the best only mons in OU that learn those moves - toed and gar are the only other two perish singers in OU, and pink blobs/roserade are really the only other options for clerics. with regards to latias, having a grass stab to murder bulky waters right away is nice; natural cure is also a distinguishing factor since it means toxic does not render you useless for the rest of the game.

there's not much else to say about defensive celebi besides those two traits, but they are compelling ones. otherwise it is a fairly typical bulky grass (natural cure is nice; i'd rather have regenerator any day though >_>). invest in sdef and go. i am not a big fan of uturn on defensive sets but alexwolf has pushed hard for twave and yes it is good. celebi is extremely g-weak among bulky grasses so you need a good gameplan - hp fire on the switch is okay but twave is often even better if your team can capitalize on a slow-as-shit genesect.