Fine, it could rise to C, but let's wait until his run is over first. Let's not make this the Pansear In-Game Tier List Discussion, please.
Discussion Slate: Sawk, Sewaddle
Discussion Slate: Sawk, Sewaddle
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Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)
- Thread starter DrumstickGaming
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What? it's already in B, that's the thing. The whole point of my post earlier was pointing out that you mistakenly said that Pansear is going to stay in D, even though it's not there in the first place. I thought that was just a little typing error on your part or something. But now instead of correcting that mistake you 'rise it to C', even though it is in B at the moment. Not to be rude, but you might have to take another look at the situation for the sake of preventing more confusion.
Yes, I know it's in B at the moment. I'm gonna drop it to C for now, and we'll wait and see what happens.
Y tho? Why drop it now for no reason and then see what happens. Wouldn't it be more logical to wait for Turdterra to finish his test first?
Either way, I guess this:
solves the confusion at least.
I still disagree with Pansear in C, but I'll wait for Turdterra to finish his run before defending Pansear.
Apologies for inconsistencies. This shouldn't be a problem once this smooths out. For the most part, things seem to be pretty uncontested outside of the S rankings from my perceptions.
I also want to add that my current run will likely be my final one, unless anybody wants me to test some more stuff.
Well, at Victory Road, now. Not much changes with the Route 10 Cheren fight, save for his starter having finally evolved.
If Oshawott was chosen, Leavanny has the potential to chew through Cheren's entire team bar Unfezant with its STABs. Serperior has Coil and Leftovers, though, which meant mine barely missed the 2KO after Leftovers recovery. Liepard and Simipour are weak to its STABs, though the latter can complicate things with Scald.
Which leads me to agree on the general assessment of Panpour so far. While not fantastic on its own, access to Scald would definitely make up for it. I can't say much more than that, however, as I'm not currently using it. (and don't plan to in my next play through as I want to test Sewaddle again and don't want to choose Snivy just to get Panpour at the Dreamyard)
Did we ever decide when it's appropriate to assume when Karrablast can evolve? Can it be evolved right away assuming one can trade to another copy that has Shelmet, or do we wait until Icirrus City when Shelmet becomes available? (i.e. we have to provide the Shelmet to trade)
If Oshawott was chosen, Leavanny has the potential to chew through Cheren's entire team bar Unfezant with its STABs. Serperior has Coil and Leftovers, though, which meant mine barely missed the 2KO after Leftovers recovery. Liepard and Simipour are weak to its STABs, though the latter can complicate things with Scald.
Which leads me to agree on the general assessment of Panpour so far. While not fantastic on its own, access to Scald would definitely make up for it. I can't say much more than that, however, as I'm not currently using it. (and don't plan to in my next play through as I want to test Sewaddle again and don't want to choose Snivy just to get Panpour at the Dreamyard)
Did we ever decide when it's appropriate to assume when Karrablast can evolve? Can it be evolved right away assuming one can trade to another copy that has Shelmet, or do we wait until Icirrus City when Shelmet becomes available? (i.e. we have to provide the Shelmet to trade)
Right away was the consensus, but it doesn't really get good until the X-Scissor TM (44 otherwise by level up).
I see. Still better than carrying Karrablast the entire time, I think. I may use it either in the next run or a run after. (somehow having two Pokemon 4x weak to Fire on the same team doesn't seem wise, so I probably won't use it in the same run as the second go of Sewaddle)
Want to say that I haven't forgotten about this tier list or anything. I tested Drayden earlier, but might do another test to refresh my memory, and combine that with giving feedback on Cheren + Victory Road stuff.
That being said, unless someone posts a lengthy nomination that I want to comment on, discussion is probably gonna slow down. A lot of the initial testers seem to be (understandably) burned out after multiple runs too. Not only this, but my schedule is heating up toward the end of the semester and I have a lot of ground to make up, so that will eat up a lot of my free time over the next two months. I also feel like I'm turning this into an echo chamber sometimes by repeating stuff.
I'm not trying to make anyone guilty, just trying to be transparent so this thread won't totally die off. I'm going to try to keep an eye on this tier list, but my novel-length posts will be more infrequent. Thank you all for your support. I will update when I can.
Discussion Slate: Who are the most borderline S or A tiers? (This also includes stuff potentially dropping to B.)
That being said, unless someone posts a lengthy nomination that I want to comment on, discussion is probably gonna slow down. A lot of the initial testers seem to be (understandably) burned out after multiple runs too. Not only this, but my schedule is heating up toward the end of the semester and I have a lot of ground to make up, so that will eat up a lot of my free time over the next two months. I also feel like I'm turning this into an echo chamber sometimes by repeating stuff.
I'm not trying to make anyone guilty, just trying to be transparent so this thread won't totally die off. I'm going to try to keep an eye on this tier list, but my novel-length posts will be more infrequent. Thank you all for your support. I will update when I can.
Discussion Slate: Who are the most borderline S or A tiers? (This also includes stuff potentially dropping to B.)
I happen to know for a fact that some of them are not, in fact, burned out. Rather, I they have been put off the point of not wanting to involve themselves in this project by your ongoing rudeness and condescension, which has continued even after you have been told you are doing it, and your incessant attempts to micromanage everything about this project, from the way people play their own games (which, I may add, is hilariously hypocritical considering you then go on to treat your own runs as more valid when you hardly play efficiently yourself) to the rankings people select for the Pokémon they have used.
Curious if anyone agrees with this here (as far as I know, it’s from your words that people are not burned out and they rather not work with him) As far as I know, you are more or less the only one attacking him and haven’t added anything useful to the conversations at hand, calling him out on things he is trying to correct. You can go ahead and attack me, I don’t really care if you do or not. While his words can be standoffish, he HAS been working on this, I’ve seen your name pop up twice in this thread. And twice are they attacks.
I do not wish to cause tension in this thread nor any discord as I have already, but you’ve been attacking him and him alone. People have pointed out his flaws and has gotten feedback on how to control this. You could tell him how to efficiently use Pokémon instead of blasting him.
you know yourself so well
To diverge a little from the current topic...
This is less of an argument than an inquiry - why is Sawk only A and not S? Sawk seems to easily fulfill the given criteria:
This is less of an argument than an inquiry - why is Sawk only A and not S? Sawk seems to easily fulfill the given criteria:
Sawk is able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents thanks to incredibly strong base stats and a solid movepool. Sawk doesn’t really rely on items at any point in the game, and Sawk is made available as soon as before the second gym. The only flaw that Sawk really has is the occasional poor major match-up, especially against Caitlin. Other than that, Sawk is extremely valuable and seems worthy of S, unless there’s something I’m missing here.
Back to the run. Gonna be brief and speed to the end to have slightly lower levels. Time for Drayden. Everyone was level 46 save Whimsicott and Audino at 45.
Druddigon: Even without Dragon Fang (which, off the main path, so probably shouldn't be considered) you OHKO both Fraxure and Haxorus (his own Druddigon barely lives) but didn't use Dragon Tail. Should be a neutral-positive matchup.
Whimsicott: I really hate saying this again, but Charm + Leech Seed once more. Typical Whimsicott strats. I want to like this thing, but it just isn't suited for the sweeper mentality that this thread seems to lean toward (as I test each mon individually, and typically not as an ensemble as that invites comparisons)
Arcehops: The game finally starts catching up. You OHKO Fraxure while knocking Druddigon to red (though you can 2HKO the latter with Rock Slide). Haxorus is OHKOed by Acrobatics so overall good matchup.
Emboar: You OHKO Fraxure with Hammer Arm with a favorable roll. Hammer Arm takes Haxorus and Druddigon roughly to Hyper Potion range. You're likely to faint when Haxorus comes out.
Excadrill: SD EQ Katamari Damacy
Audino: 3 Work Ups OHKOs Fraxure. 4 OHKOs everything else. I didn't want to get Blizzard for just one fight. They seem to DD three times and then Dragon Tail, though my successful attempt had him DD 4 times. Notably, Audino lives a +3 Dragon Tail from Fraxure with half health. Overall, it can at least kill Fraxure, and from my experience the other two usually go second/use Dragon Tail.
Final Cheren will be just Druddigon because you can infer how the other matchups go at this point. Not using Dragon Fang.
Rock Slide knocks Unfezant to red. Mostly does useless things like Detect, Taunt and Razor Wind. Liepard used Taunt and was OHKOed by unboosted Revenge (mine crit though, but Liepard is frail regardless). Starter is iffy. You kinda 3HKO Samurott, though Simisear is a damage range on rather it will kill you (my Druddigon was 7 HP after the fight).
So I'd say good matchup, it can likely take out three members easily. Next update is the League.
I apologize on being dismissive of others' opinions in the past. I will strive to be more objective and judge each user's posts as fairly as my own from here on out.
Druddigon: Even without Dragon Fang (which, off the main path, so probably shouldn't be considered) you OHKO both Fraxure and Haxorus (his own Druddigon barely lives) but didn't use Dragon Tail. Should be a neutral-positive matchup.
Whimsicott: I really hate saying this again, but Charm + Leech Seed once more. Typical Whimsicott strats. I want to like this thing, but it just isn't suited for the sweeper mentality that this thread seems to lean toward (as I test each mon individually, and typically not as an ensemble as that invites comparisons)
Arcehops: The game finally starts catching up. You OHKO Fraxure while knocking Druddigon to red (though you can 2HKO the latter with Rock Slide). Haxorus is OHKOed by Acrobatics so overall good matchup.
Emboar: You OHKO Fraxure with Hammer Arm with a favorable roll. Hammer Arm takes Haxorus and Druddigon roughly to Hyper Potion range. You're likely to faint when Haxorus comes out.
Excadrill: SD EQ Katamari Damacy
Audino: 3 Work Ups OHKOs Fraxure. 4 OHKOs everything else. I didn't want to get Blizzard for just one fight. They seem to DD three times and then Dragon Tail, though my successful attempt had him DD 4 times. Notably, Audino lives a +3 Dragon Tail from Fraxure with half health. Overall, it can at least kill Fraxure, and from my experience the other two usually go second/use Dragon Tail.
Final Cheren will be just Druddigon because you can infer how the other matchups go at this point. Not using Dragon Fang.
Rock Slide knocks Unfezant to red. Mostly does useless things like Detect, Taunt and Razor Wind. Liepard used Taunt and was OHKOed by unboosted Revenge (mine crit though, but Liepard is frail regardless). Starter is iffy. You kinda 3HKO Samurott, though Simisear is a damage range on rather it will kill you (my Druddigon was 7 HP after the fight).
So I'd say good matchup, it can likely take out three members easily. Next update is the League.
I apologize on being dismissive of others' opinions in the past. I will strive to be more objective and judge each user's posts as fairly as my own from here on out.
S Noms get treated pretty seriously (Drumsticks words). However, it seems everyone who has used it has nommed it for S. I believe Drumsticks should test to see for himself. This is not disregarding everyone's noms or experiences, but I believe the Tier List Leader should also test to make an accurate assessment for himself as well to make ABSOLUTELY sure that is were it should be placed. But it looks like it's on track for S Tier. Can't speak for Drumsticks
I'd say Sawk can be in S tier, though not yet. I've used him fairly recently, but I think I'll reassess him in a further one now that the idea has gathered steam before I move him. I'd like to see what some of the mods think on Sawk if possible, as like Turdterra said I do treat S noms pretty seriously. We've had...like 3 users to nom Sawk up there to my memory. The only reason I want to use it again is to avoid the knee-jerk reactions (like that Joltik to B one) I've had in the past.
So give it a little more time. I'm well aware that Sawk is easily one of the best mons you can get, easily on par with the desert stuff.
Speaking of S...Drilbur has a case to be moved up there. Like Darumaka, it also has a rut period on top of being hard to find. Unlike Darumaka, however, Excadrill truly destroys the game; I think I've only had like one mon survive a (IIRC) unboosted EQ that wasn't immune. It rarely misses OHKOs, outspeeds pretty much anything, and more than earns its keep to S by destroying the game. If you test it, early doubts you might have aren't unfounded, but I assure you once you are Excadrill even with Dig nothing threatens you like ever.
It's worth noting that the rut period can actually be skipped by picking it up in Chargestone; even if you miss Elesa, the other matchups are kinda iffy/bad if you aren't Excadrill for Clay. This is not to discredit Its_A_Random's opinion of moving it down to A in any way.
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I recently completed a run of this game (hadn't played it in awhile) so I figured I'd share a few thoughts on what I used. My team was Tepig/Drilbur/Audino/Druddigon/Ducklett/Sewaddle.
Tepig: A-rank is fine. As others have said it has a strong early-game and starts off good mid-game before slowly falling off due to bad Speed and awkward STAB options. That said it is always helpful. Has no issues taking out route trainers, handles most of the gyms fine barring Clay and Skyla (it can beat Elesa with Eviolite and a potion or two, it can also beat Drayden with Work Up and Flame Charge setup because his AI/movesets are terrible), E4 contributions are lackluster on the whole but it does well against Grimsley and can take some stuff out against N and Ghetsis. It's strong and consistently useful, but unless you are soloing, it is not a world-beater like some starter options in other games.
Drilbur: S rank. The worst things you can say about Drilbur is that it has sketchy bulk early (Eviolite and evolution largely fix it) and a slightly awkward starting moveset, which is helped by L15 Metal Claw and once it gets to that sweet L19 Dig it snowballs from there. Once it evolves into Excadrill it dominates. Route trainers and Team Plasma don't really stand a chance, and it can easily solo all of the gyms barring Lenora and Burgh's Leavanny. E4 contributions are overall very good - Shauntal folds without much resistance, Grimsley is mostly favorable (Krookodile kills you if its faster, but Scrafty can't OHKO and Liepard/Bisharp die), and it handles Caitlin well (Reun Focus Blast is annoying but you can just hope for the miss, nothing else on her team stands a chance). Marshal is Excadrill's only boss matchup that isn't favorable, but it can still win with some support (kamikaze a different mon into Throh to get it into Full Restore range, SD on the Full Restore, win). N and Ghetsis are cleanly swept, if playing Black both of their leads are SD bait and a single X item for both (N wants an X Defend to tank Carracosta Waterfall, Ghetsis wants an X Speed to ensure you move before Hydreigon) ensures you'll be able to bring home the bacon.
I know some people have said Drilbur was underwhelming for an S-rank Pokemon, but I personally didn't really see the issue when I was playing. Let's take a look at the definition of S rank:
Audino: Audino might be juuuust good enough for C rank. It does have very good availability, coming right after gym 1. Its raw offenses and Speed are poor, though access to Work Up coupled with solid bulk means most opponents can't defeat Audino before it defeats them. Secret Power/Retaliate around Nacrene and Return at Nimbasa help greatly with its ability to clear routes against neutral targets and its huge TM movepool means it can adapt its moveset to cover different opponents pretty well. Audino actually has pretty good boss matchups - it can actually reasonably take on every gym leader in the game, while only needing items against Lenora really, which is pretty impressive for a mon currently in D rank. The main strike against Audino aside from its lack of raw strength - and this is a big one - is that its usefulness falls off a cliff when you get to Victory Road. It struggles to get 2HKOes lategame and more opponents become capable of ripping through its bulk. Audino's E4 performance is abysmal - it can beat Shauntal with Work Up and Shadow Ball but needs to chug a lot of Full Restores to do so, and against everyone else (including N and Ghetsis) it isn't going to be doing much more than taking a hit so you can heal a teammate or paralyze something with TWave before it dies. Overall Audino has a mediocre start, a good midgame, and a terrible endgame. Still, its bulk and wide movepool do go some way towards compensating for its weaknesses, and it is a surprisingly good boss killer for most of the game. It's a borderline C/D mon imo, but I think it leans more towards C - it is at least better than things like Foongus and Golett.
Druddigon: Druddigon is okay. Late joiner, has good typing and moves alongside high power, decent bulk, and useful abilities. Catches up easily in Dragonspiral Tower and beats Drayden without much fuss, and is a solid enough route sweeper through Victory Road. My main beef with it is that its endgame performance is pretty mediocre, and it is pretty much entirely due to its dreadful Speed. It is too slow to sweep and not THAT tanky so it will end up drinking a lot of potions. It can 1v1 a lot of Pokemon in the league, but isn't really sturdy enough to go for a second round against anything. Its notable contributions for me were taking out Caitlin's Reuniclus and trolling Marshal with Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet. C rank is probably fair, I personally think it is borderline because of its need for potions and late join but I can't in good conscience put it on the same level as stuff like Patrat.
Ducklett: Ducklett is...also okay. Ducklett has pretty terrible stats, but can take a bit of punishment with Eviolite and the Scald TM gives it good enough damage output to 2HKO things and deal with Clay's gym trainers. It can even conceivably beat Clay on its own with Featherdance buffering his Pokemon's onslaughts, though it will take some time and its odds of beating Excadrill cleanly are kinda sketchy. It struggles a bit to train in Chargestone Cave but does well enough against Plasma Grunts that tend not to use Electric mons. Evolving into Swanna is a considerable improvement and it is quite a good route sweeper in caves and in rainy routes. It can beat Skyla and most of Brycen (you might not have enough HP to deal with Cryogonal after killing Beartic) by making use of Rain Dance boosted attacks, and it can also handle Drayden just fine with Air Slash, an X Special, and his garbage movesets, though you may need to flinch Druddigon to avoid getting Dragon Tailed out. Its E4 performance was mediocre, but it can still do some stuff. It can take out the half of Shauntal's and Grimsley's teams that are weak to its STABs and hurt Marshal pretty badly (though Marshal having Rock coverage on everything hurts because Swanna's bulk is awful). However, it's pretty awful against Caitlin (bulky mons and Electric coverage) and doesn't do anything of note against N or Ghetsis. On the whole, Ducklett is statistically weak but can quickly compensate w/ Eviolite and Scald, and as Swanna is a reasonable if not outstanding fighter for the latter part of the game. C rank fits fine I'd say.
Sewaddle: Sewaddle seems to be a discussion topic at the moment. Overall, it was not terribly impressive, but not bad either. It has a lot of good qualities: comes fairly early and close to evolution, has fairly good power with Razor Leaf/Bug Bite/Return until it gets Leaf Blade/X-Scissor, natural Swords Dance to help in sweeping, and as Leavanny has pretty good Attack and Speed. However, Leavanny has one huge flaw: its defensive typing is garbage. It sometimes has to switch out of route trainers because of its weaknesses, and most of its boss matchups mediocre to bad. It can take out Burgh's Leavanny and maybe Dwebble, does nothing against Elesa, almost beats Clay but disappointingly doesn't quite solo him (Excadrill beats Leavanny 1v1), loses hard to Skyla, and has a rough time against Brycen. The only boss it can really solo is Drayden, which is whatever because basically anything can solo that man he gives you so much setup time. It has a few good E4 matchups but is more often than not disappointing here too. It can't quite beat Shauntal's Cofagrigus, but it can set up on Golurk or Jellicent and beat everything else (+2 Spell Tag Shadow Claw KOed Chandelure). It can beat Grimsley, but setting up is difficult: Scrafty has Poison Jab and doesn't quite die to +2 Leaf Blade, and you need an X Speed to cleanly sweep because Liepard is faster and has Aerial Ace. It can't quite cleanly sweep Caitlin either: Reuniclus does too much damage to have more than one turn of setup, and Sigilyph ended up outspeeding Leavanny and putting it down (though if you can outspeed Sigilyph, Leavanny probably does sweep). Marshal is difficult because of all the rock coverage. N matchup is poor because his whole team either walls or has the coverage to murder Leavanny. Ghetsis is also bad, though it can at least KO Seismitoad I guess. Overall, Sewaddle is pretty good for when you get it, but its typing makes it fairly brittle and its major battle matchups are more negative than positive. I don't think it is quite good enough for B - the typing just causes it too many problems - but C seems fair for it.
tl;dr
Tepig: A
Drilbur: S
Audino: D->C possible
Druddigon: Borderline C/D, leaning C
Ducklett: C
Sewaddle: C
May do another run with Sawk, not entirely sure yet. I think it is very possible it could be S rank, but it could use further testing since its bad matchups are really bad and that might be its Achilles Heel.
Tepig: A-rank is fine. As others have said it has a strong early-game and starts off good mid-game before slowly falling off due to bad Speed and awkward STAB options. That said it is always helpful. Has no issues taking out route trainers, handles most of the gyms fine barring Clay and Skyla (it can beat Elesa with Eviolite and a potion or two, it can also beat Drayden with Work Up and Flame Charge setup because his AI/movesets are terrible), E4 contributions are lackluster on the whole but it does well against Grimsley and can take some stuff out against N and Ghetsis. It's strong and consistently useful, but unless you are soloing, it is not a world-beater like some starter options in other games.
Drilbur: S rank. The worst things you can say about Drilbur is that it has sketchy bulk early (Eviolite and evolution largely fix it) and a slightly awkward starting moveset, which is helped by L15 Metal Claw and once it gets to that sweet L19 Dig it snowballs from there. Once it evolves into Excadrill it dominates. Route trainers and Team Plasma don't really stand a chance, and it can easily solo all of the gyms barring Lenora and Burgh's Leavanny. E4 contributions are overall very good - Shauntal folds without much resistance, Grimsley is mostly favorable (Krookodile kills you if its faster, but Scrafty can't OHKO and Liepard/Bisharp die), and it handles Caitlin well (Reun Focus Blast is annoying but you can just hope for the miss, nothing else on her team stands a chance). Marshal is Excadrill's only boss matchup that isn't favorable, but it can still win with some support (kamikaze a different mon into Throh to get it into Full Restore range, SD on the Full Restore, win). N and Ghetsis are cleanly swept, if playing Black both of their leads are SD bait and a single X item for both (N wants an X Defend to tank Carracosta Waterfall, Ghetsis wants an X Speed to ensure you move before Hydreigon) ensures you'll be able to bring home the bacon.
I know some people have said Drilbur was underwhelming for an S-rank Pokemon, but I personally didn't really see the issue when I was playing. Let's take a look at the definition of S rank:
Drilbur has:
- No issues OHKOing or 2HKOing a majority of opponents (once you get Dig, which comes early enough for this to not be too much of a problem)
- Can take a hit when it needs to thanks to good HP and Eviolite/typing compensating for otherwise lackluster defensive stats
- Has great availability, coming shortly after Gym 1.
- Does not require items beyond the occasional potion or maybe an X Speed or two for N/Ghetsis, which, honestly, is fine. Minimal reliance on items is not the same as zero reliance on items, and one X item to clean sweep an endgame boss is more than reasonable. It does want Soft Sand or Eviolite at times but like...what opportunity cost is there in hold items? You can swap them around as needed. They are passive and don't cost time beyond a few seconds to equip. The only opportunity cost here is that time spent holding Soft Sand or Eviolite is time not spent holding the Lucky Egg, which you can pass around as needed and isn't really significant enough of a problem to be concerned about when you get it.
Audino: Audino might be juuuust good enough for C rank. It does have very good availability, coming right after gym 1. Its raw offenses and Speed are poor, though access to Work Up coupled with solid bulk means most opponents can't defeat Audino before it defeats them. Secret Power/Retaliate around Nacrene and Return at Nimbasa help greatly with its ability to clear routes against neutral targets and its huge TM movepool means it can adapt its moveset to cover different opponents pretty well. Audino actually has pretty good boss matchups - it can actually reasonably take on every gym leader in the game, while only needing items against Lenora really, which is pretty impressive for a mon currently in D rank. The main strike against Audino aside from its lack of raw strength - and this is a big one - is that its usefulness falls off a cliff when you get to Victory Road. It struggles to get 2HKOes lategame and more opponents become capable of ripping through its bulk. Audino's E4 performance is abysmal - it can beat Shauntal with Work Up and Shadow Ball but needs to chug a lot of Full Restores to do so, and against everyone else (including N and Ghetsis) it isn't going to be doing much more than taking a hit so you can heal a teammate or paralyze something with TWave before it dies. Overall Audino has a mediocre start, a good midgame, and a terrible endgame. Still, its bulk and wide movepool do go some way towards compensating for its weaknesses, and it is a surprisingly good boss killer for most of the game. It's a borderline C/D mon imo, but I think it leans more towards C - it is at least better than things like Foongus and Golett.
Druddigon: Druddigon is okay. Late joiner, has good typing and moves alongside high power, decent bulk, and useful abilities. Catches up easily in Dragonspiral Tower and beats Drayden without much fuss, and is a solid enough route sweeper through Victory Road. My main beef with it is that its endgame performance is pretty mediocre, and it is pretty much entirely due to its dreadful Speed. It is too slow to sweep and not THAT tanky so it will end up drinking a lot of potions. It can 1v1 a lot of Pokemon in the league, but isn't really sturdy enough to go for a second round against anything. Its notable contributions for me were taking out Caitlin's Reuniclus and trolling Marshal with Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet. C rank is probably fair, I personally think it is borderline because of its need for potions and late join but I can't in good conscience put it on the same level as stuff like Patrat.
Ducklett: Ducklett is...also okay. Ducklett has pretty terrible stats, but can take a bit of punishment with Eviolite and the Scald TM gives it good enough damage output to 2HKO things and deal with Clay's gym trainers. It can even conceivably beat Clay on its own with Featherdance buffering his Pokemon's onslaughts, though it will take some time and its odds of beating Excadrill cleanly are kinda sketchy. It struggles a bit to train in Chargestone Cave but does well enough against Plasma Grunts that tend not to use Electric mons. Evolving into Swanna is a considerable improvement and it is quite a good route sweeper in caves and in rainy routes. It can beat Skyla and most of Brycen (you might not have enough HP to deal with Cryogonal after killing Beartic) by making use of Rain Dance boosted attacks, and it can also handle Drayden just fine with Air Slash, an X Special, and his garbage movesets, though you may need to flinch Druddigon to avoid getting Dragon Tailed out. Its E4 performance was mediocre, but it can still do some stuff. It can take out the half of Shauntal's and Grimsley's teams that are weak to its STABs and hurt Marshal pretty badly (though Marshal having Rock coverage on everything hurts because Swanna's bulk is awful). However, it's pretty awful against Caitlin (bulky mons and Electric coverage) and doesn't do anything of note against N or Ghetsis. On the whole, Ducklett is statistically weak but can quickly compensate w/ Eviolite and Scald, and as Swanna is a reasonable if not outstanding fighter for the latter part of the game. C rank fits fine I'd say.
Sewaddle: Sewaddle seems to be a discussion topic at the moment. Overall, it was not terribly impressive, but not bad either. It has a lot of good qualities: comes fairly early and close to evolution, has fairly good power with Razor Leaf/Bug Bite/Return until it gets Leaf Blade/X-Scissor, natural Swords Dance to help in sweeping, and as Leavanny has pretty good Attack and Speed. However, Leavanny has one huge flaw: its defensive typing is garbage. It sometimes has to switch out of route trainers because of its weaknesses, and most of its boss matchups mediocre to bad. It can take out Burgh's Leavanny and maybe Dwebble, does nothing against Elesa, almost beats Clay but disappointingly doesn't quite solo him (Excadrill beats Leavanny 1v1), loses hard to Skyla, and has a rough time against Brycen. The only boss it can really solo is Drayden, which is whatever because basically anything can solo that man he gives you so much setup time. It has a few good E4 matchups but is more often than not disappointing here too. It can't quite beat Shauntal's Cofagrigus, but it can set up on Golurk or Jellicent and beat everything else (+2 Spell Tag Shadow Claw KOed Chandelure). It can beat Grimsley, but setting up is difficult: Scrafty has Poison Jab and doesn't quite die to +2 Leaf Blade, and you need an X Speed to cleanly sweep because Liepard is faster and has Aerial Ace. It can't quite cleanly sweep Caitlin either: Reuniclus does too much damage to have more than one turn of setup, and Sigilyph ended up outspeeding Leavanny and putting it down (though if you can outspeed Sigilyph, Leavanny probably does sweep). Marshal is difficult because of all the rock coverage. N matchup is poor because his whole team either walls or has the coverage to murder Leavanny. Ghetsis is also bad, though it can at least KO Seismitoad I guess. Overall, Sewaddle is pretty good for when you get it, but its typing makes it fairly brittle and its major battle matchups are more negative than positive. I don't think it is quite good enough for B - the typing just causes it too many problems - but C seems fair for it.
tl;dr
Tepig: A
Drilbur: S
Audino: D->C possible
Druddigon: Borderline C/D, leaning C
Ducklett: C
Sewaddle: C
May do another run with Sawk, not entirely sure yet. I think it is very possible it could be S rank, but it could use further testing since its bad matchups are really bad and that might be its Achilles Heel.
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Sawk is pretty good, certainly. Even better if you can get one with Sturdy, as Inner Focus is virtually useless. (albeit still niche) It does sometimes arrive holding a Black Belt if one would like a little more power up front with its Fighting STAB.
Is it S good? That I can't say as I only recall using it during my first play through of White when the games had only recently come out, and I'm not even going to try fooling myself that that's usable for judging its tier placement. (especially as I wasn't at all focused on getting through the game efficiently at the time - I wasn't even a member of Smogon then!)
Wanna say I pretty much agree with all these rankings. I actually forgot to give my Pignite Work Up (in my defense, Tepig does not get it when I checked earlygame but Pignite and Emboar do, and one of my problems has been the lack of an offense boosting move) so that might have solved some issues. Even though it's not too hot midgame (maybe I'll retest it sometime) I trust both your and It's_A_Random's opinions on it so it's staying A. Even in weak matchups it can still Rock Tomb with Eviolite or whatever.
Drilbur is definitely S power-wise, though finding it in the small Wellspring Cave wasn't exactly quick (at least for me). Still shouldn't detract from its ranking with the rare Sigilyph in A.
Audino-Yeah, color me surprised; I was surprised this thing was so good! I'll push it up to C because it's just such a consistent boss cleaner until the very end of the game. It does start falling off, but remember nothing is stopping you from using it as Reflect/Light Screen fodder endgame (yeah it helps the team more but it can easily get a couple off).
Druddigon: Yeah, it's C the way mine's been going. After a few levels, it's actually not too shabby, although has minimal contributions for coming so late. If you read some of my earlier posts, Druddigon can take on Brycen decently despite how bad it seems on paper. Overall, despite seeming outclassed, it's a fine generic beatstick if you need one (starting with great moves helps, and it can relearn Hone Claws)
Ducklett seems better tanking wise than I thought. Yeah, I can see C tier, though you kinda hit like a wet noodle as Ducklett. I do remember it being okay as a Swanna though. Might have to use this sometime.
Sewaddle: It's a shame this thing's E4 potential isn't as good as it is on paper. As bad as those boss matchups are, it has a solid start movepool wise so I think it should definitely be C as outside bosses I think it's STABs work fine. May use but I think it wouldn't change, like with Ducklett really.
I will do another run with Sawk too, whenever my current one is done (just got to Victory Road recently).
Thanks for these tests, I found your writeups very nice to read!
__
Now for the endgame. I did grind a bit in Victory Road to make my levels somewhat balanced (I think I still skipped a trainer or two). I know I skipped every trainer on Route 10 save for Cheren.
Archeops, Whimsicott, Audino - Level 47
Emboar, Druddigon, Excadril - Level 48
Everyone has their STAB-boost item save Audino with Spell Tag. Reformatted it's moveset to Light Screen, Substitute, Shadow Ball and Work Up for Shauntal and Caitlin.
Shauntal:
Druddigon: This is actually a great matchup with BlackGlasses! Substitute on Cofagrigus as it fails to burn you. In three tests it went for another Will-O-Wisp the second turn like a moron, which is when you X Attack/Hone Claws (I didn't have it as Drudd's coverage is so good). You seem to 2HKO once Sheer Force is removed, or just 2HKO in general with Sheer Force and no boosts. Once you beat the coffin, Golurk comes in. Outsped and OHKOed it. When it lived it went for Curse on me. Chandelure outspeeds with Shadow Ball...but it just breaks Sub and is OHKOed. Jellicent is outsped and OHKOed. I will admit this might be my Naive Druddigon and it's near perfect Speed (Druddigon has 48 natural Speed, Golurk has 55 and Jellicent has 60. HOWEVER, in one attempt Golurk did live and use Curse by just barely, as did Chandelure. So I'd say you'd need to be at +2 Attack for a reliable sweep (still pretty easy to get). I'd still wager that if you can't sweep, you should at least kill two members with Substitute use.
Emboar: While you can only fight Jellicent, you should outspeed and smack it with Wild Charge. Mine was not item boosted but still knocked Jellicent to about low yellow/20% health. While you are finished off with Surf, for an apparently useless matchup, it's not totally useless.
Excadrill: SD EQ is a range to kill Cofagrigus without Soft Sand. You should be able to Sub and barely take a Shadow Ball. It's Ai seems variable, first time it Shadow Ball'd twice but next time it spammed Will-O-Wisp after a Sub. Either way, you should sweep without having to heal as you outspeed and OHKO everything at +2 with EQ (Shadow Claw isn't recommended due to Flame Body and Cursed Body having potential to screw you over).
Archeops: You outspeed and 2HKO Cofagrigus with Acrobatics to remove Defeatist, but Jellicent lives in red and kills with Brine. I'd imagine you can take Chandelure fine with Rock Slide (Golurk has Heavy Slam).
Whimsicott: Not as good as you'd think against Golurk and Jellicent. With Miracle Seed, you 2HKO Golurk fine but Jellicent is likely gonna be a 3HKO unless you have the Modest traded Cottonee (which I don't). If Cursed Body activates even once, you lose. Doesn't help both foes roughly 2HKO you either.
Audino: Cofagrigus doesn't even break your Sub with Psychic even without Light Screen, haha. Sometimes it can burn you first turn instead, so again variable. Would reccomend using Sub, then Light Screen, then boost up and win (don't bother setting up Light Screen after Cofagrigus falls). Make sure you have a Sub up, then heal to full for subsequent foes. Golurk outspeeds and breaks Sub with EQ. Chandelure's Fire Blast takes you to like 65/165 health so you live easily. You outspeed and OHKO Jellicent (though mine crit I'd assume you can do it fine at +6). Little tricky but fine with proper planning.
Gonna post about the other members when I get the time to edit this post.
Caitlin:
Druddigon: You 2HKO Reuniclus and it 2HKOs you. Against Sigilyph at full health, you can barely live and Ice Beam and one-shot back with Crunch. I'm gonna assume you 2HKO Gothitelle and Musharna.
Emboar: You smash Reuniclus into low yellow with Charcoal-boosted Heat Crash, but die in return. You can barely live a Psychic at full health from Sigilyph assuming you are decently leveled (once I lived at 9 HP, once I lived at 1 HP with a Special Defense drop as well rofl). Charcoal Blaze boosted Flame Charge 2HKOs while you outspeed next turn. With Charcoal, Blaze, and Heat Crash you smack Musharna into yellow before dying. Not great, but not as bad as you'd think (at worst you hit one threat into yellow health with Heat Crash).
Whimiscott: Pretty pathetic. Unless you set Light Screen, they 2HKO with Psychic, while you like...4-5HKO them with Miracle Seed. Nothing much it doesn't do in other neutral matchups.
Excadrill: This one is weird. You should have SD, Substitute, EQ, and X-Scissor, with BrightPowder to help dodge Focus Blast and set up a Sub. After an SD, Reuniclus is OHKOed by EQ (remember no Soft Sand) or an X-Scissor. Sigilyph may seem dangerous by outspeeding...until you realize it only like 4 or 5HKOs you with Ice Beam, while you 2HKO with X-Scissor or OHKO with Rock Slide if you forego Substitute. You outspeed and OHKO both Gothitelle and Musharna.
Archeops: You 2HKO Reuniclus with Acrobatics (hoping you dodge Thunder). Sigilyph is outsped and OHKOed by Rock Slide. Gothitelle is 2HKOed by Acrobatics, however Thunderbolt knocks you into Defeatist range and thus you miss the kill on the second hit despite comfortably living. Gonna assume Musharna is also a 2HKO given the other bulky mons damage.
Audino: Isn't sweeping barring the most absurd circumstances. You can Light Screen and Protect stall out Focus Blast Reuniclus, but at best you are only killing it and Sigilyph (Gothitelle can outspeed and Calm Mind to live a +5 Shadow Ball)
Grimsley:
Druddigon: Pretty great here with Expert Belt! If you Substitute on Scrafty, it seems to just Sand Attack repeatedly, while you 3HKO with Revenge or Dragon Claw (Revenge isn't boosted bc it seems to never hit you). Sub negates Krook's Intimidate, while you 2HKO it. Krook will break your sub first turn, but fail to kill with Dragon Claw (remember you should be around 75% health by beating Scrafty, so this isn't a range) while you kill it. You should heal, live any of Bisharp's attacks (it 3HKOs you even with Night Slash) and OHKO with Revenge. Heal on Liepard (it also 3HKOs with Night Slash) and OHKO with Revenge. All in all, you can do this with 2 healing items, or less if you Hone Claws on Scrafty (who you outspeed, but I didn't have Hone Claws). Even if you don't setup, you can easily take both Bisharp and Liepard (you might have to heal once though).
Emboar: Expert Belt this time. You can set up Flame Charge on Scrafty while it 3HKOs you with Brick Break. With 2 you outspeed Krookodile, but barely fail to kill it at -1 unless you have Expert Belt, and even then, it's a range. You can even 2HKO Scrafty with Heat Crash..
Honestly, the best strat is to 1v1 everything save Krookodile instead of sweeping. Outspeed and OHKO Scrafty (this is never a range with Expert Belt, I tested it like 3 times). Against Bisharp, Flame Charge twice while it knocks to just above Blaze range on the first hit. Outspeed and OHKO Liepard with Hammer Arm (Heat Crash is a range unless you use Charcoal). If you are 75 Speed you outspeed Scrafty.
Whimsicott: Ugh. You can beat Scrafty with Charm, Leech Seed, and Giga Drain, but if he uses healing items twice on Scrafty you literally lose all your Giga Drain PP to beat it. You 2HKO Krookodile while it can't do much back (especially if you Charm it as it goes for Foul Play). Don't even THINK about Bisharp (Night Slash crits, X-Scissor and Aerial Ace, Defiant negates Charm). You outspeed and 2HKO Liepard while it doesn't quite 2HKO you thanks to Giga Drain healing.
Excadrill: Soft Sand. 2HKO Scrafty while it uses Sand-Attack or fails to kill you. Avoid Krook. Outspeed and OHKO Bisharp. Live a hit easily from Liepard and OHKO with EQ. Don't try and sweep here-Krookodile outspeeds and OHKOs unless you have a Sub or boosted Speed (good luck).
Archeops: Outspeed and OHKO Scrafty with Acrobatics. Honestly, you shouldn't tango with BIsharp or Krookodile, unless you have Dig or Focus Blast (and the latter is super risky). I doubt Dig would OHKO Bisharp anyway. Seeing as you 2HKO Krook with -1 Acrobatics and don't even come close to OHKOing it without Intimidate, you should probably avoid it unless you like losing momentum with U-Turn and sacking stuff. You outspeed and OHKO Liepard.
Audino: Avoid Scrafty (it's unlikely you'll speed creep it anyway, mine was 71 Speed with a high Speed IV). Also avoid Bisharp and Krookodile (you can't even 2HKO the latter with Miracle Seed Grass Knot). You can beat Liepard but so can anything. Honesty, just use Audino in this fight to set up a Reflect for the other team members as it can safely live it a hit (though Scrafty's Brick Break and Liepard's as well as Bisharp's Night Slash kinda sucks for that strat).
Marshall:
Druddigon: Should take out one mon (it roughly 3HKOs Throh with Dragon Fang-boosted Dragon Claw). Barring crits, you 2HKO Sawk, 3HKO Conkeldurr and probably 2HKO Mienshao.
Emboar: Assuming you get favorable ranges on Throh's Bulldoze, you can Flame Charge twice then use Charcoal-boosted Heat Crash to 1v1 Throh. Sawk still outspeeds at +2. With this knowledge, I'd imagine you can take out one of his Pokemon but not much else if you don't heal.
Whimsicott: Even it Whimsicott's best matchup it still kinda sucks. Throh takes an eternity to kill, though it almost never uses Storm Throw (which 2HKOs btw). Every other move is crit city, and Bulldoze makes your Speed awful. You can beat Throh and Mienshao (it missed with Jump Kick lol but Charm prevents it from killing you). But suddenly...
Sawk used Retalitate!
A critical hit!
Whimsicott fainted! (from full HP).
It's burst utility isn't worth it for this one fight. Throh takes forever, Mienshao can potentially U-Turn out of Charm, Sawk has crit moves everywhere, and Conkeldurr also has Stone Edge and just titanic bulk.
Excadrill: Soft Sand. 2HKO Throh, 2HKO Sawk, 2HKO Conkeldurr. Mienshao outspeeds and kills. Decent.
Archeops: You may barely fail to OHKO Throh with Acrobatics, though it is possible to kill it via a damage range (which seemed to be favorable more often than not). Sawk is iffy due to Sturdy. You outspeed and OHKO both Conkeldurr and Mienshao. If you want to possibly sweep you'll need RNG on your side (good ranges/at least two Stone Edge misses while using Substitute, or one if you can flinch Sawk with Rock Slide lol). Still though, anything at worst sweeping half of Marshall's team is invaluable given how difficult he is.
Audino: Lol. You can maybe setup a Reflect on Throh or Conkeldurr (though it appears to have Speed IVs). Still bad because of high-crit moves.
N:
Druddigon: Tricky. With Dragon Fang/Expert Belt you should 2HKO either legend. Zekrom had a tendency to Fusion Bolt (did it all three times I tested) for less than half, then Giga Impact to confirm a kill. If you Sub on Fusion Bolt, Giga Impact only breaks the sub next turn, letting you safely hit it. After you heal post Zekrom's recharge, you should live another Giga Impact easily and fire off a Dragon Claw next turn to kill. It'd probably go the same way with Reshiram, though that does have Reflect (Zekrom only used Light Screen once so idk). I'd imagine you could take on Zoroark or Klingklang with Revenge. Either legend hits too hard to setup on effectively, as does Carracosta.
Emboar: You can setup on Vanilluxe, Klinklang, or Zoroark (shakier due to Night Slash crits or Focus Blast Special Defense drops), but the problem is Carracosta. Unless you are at like...near full health with a Sub up or Hail going, you can't really beat it due to Aqua Jet. You can live an Aqua Jet in high yellow but there's so much prep it's hard to pull off, and Archeops wrecks you anyway. Confirmed that Hammer Arm OHKOs Klinklang Vanilluxe and Zoroark, so it's best to 1v1 again.
Whimsicott: You can safely stall out Zekrom if you can avoid crits. You beat Carracosta, though Stone Edge almost OHKOs you.
Excadrill: You can't outspeed or OHKO Zekrom with Soft Sand EQ, though since it lives in red I'd imagine you OHKO Reshiram due to its lower base Defense. Make sure you have a Sub up, are at +6 Attack via Swords Dance, use an X Speed, and are close to full health before you kill Zekrom. Carracosta isn't all that bad because it only used Waterfall on me. Scary initially but doable with preparations.
Archeops: Eh. Even Reshiram is kinda debatable (I couldn't KO the lvl 50 one I was supposed to catch with Rock Slide) though DragonBreath may not put you in Defeatist. Otherwise, a lot of things have a type advantage or outspeed you. His Archeops outspeeds yours, and Zoroark also outspeeds you. I guess you can beat Vanilluxe. Notably, his Zekrom somehow outsped Archeops and OHKOed it, so even in White this matchup seems really shaky.
Audino: A slow burn, but one you can accomplish. Get to +6 with Work Up and Substitute. If you can, try to have a Sub up by the time you beat the legend (possible due to 90% accuracy moves save DragonBreath, I've seen Zekrom miss Giga Impact twice in a row). At +6, you hit Zekrom into low yellow with Return (read: healing range) so you can kill it from there. Even with unfavorable circumstances like Focus Blast Zoroark, you can wait for it to miss and clean house. You OHKO Zoroark and Vanilluxe with Silk Scarf Return, Klinklang with Fire Blast, and knock Archeops into red with Return (Acrobatics should be a 3HKO on you which is incredible). Carracosta is 2HKOed by Silk Scarf Return at +6. You may need to spam healing items, but Audino is far from dead weight here (you could even just 1v1 Vanilluxe and Klinklang with Fire Blast if you don't want to setup).
Ghetsis:
Druddigon: You barely miss the 2HKO on Cofagrigus (who breaks Sub so that doesn't work) and even if you setup, Hydreigon outspeeds and Dragon Pulse OHKOs. It should probably take on Bisharp fine.
Emboar: Mine was level 48. If you get a low range on Surf you should live and fire off a Hammer Arm, which knocks Hydreigon into red-it'd probably KO with Expert Belt but I don't have the patience to beat N to test this/lose to Ghetsis. As for the others?
Hammer Arm fails to beat Bouffalant, but if it uses Head Charge it's a double KO. Probably OHKOs Bisharp.
Whimsicott: Beats Seismitoad. Can setup screens, Tailwind, or maybe paralyze Hydreigon which can help, but if you are sufficently leveled a lot of top tier stuff should beat it okay even without support.
Excadrill: Super easy. Get to +6 with a Sub up before you kill Cofagrigus (easy because 1 Shadow Ball doesn't break your Sub and sometimes it wastes turns with Protect). Hydriegon comes out, breaks Sub, but Ghetsis has already lost; you OHKO it with Brick Break, then outspeed and OHKO everything else. With Excadrill, you turn a normally hard fight into one that can be beaten in roughly 15 turns by one Pokemon.
Archeops: I think it gets outmuscled here. Hydreigon outspeeds, and the others can take a hit, so at best you smack something and die.
Audino: Sub, +6, then Fire Blast. Cofagrigus barely lives, but you can use an X Accuracy to make sure you hit, or PP items before you kill it if needed. Hydreigon is OHKOed by +6 Return. Boufallant is outsped and OHKOed. Seismitoad is awkward because it can use Rain Dance, making Fire Blast on Bisharp (who outspeeds you) unviable. However, assuming Night Slash doesn't crit, it is a 3HKO, and you can stall out the rain with Substitute and healing. Return puts Bisharp in low yellow, though it is risky if it uses Metal Burst (it never did on me). Eelektross suprisingly outspeeds you, though it only did Acrobatics which you easily live. Given that I soloed Ghetsis and N on my first attempts, I would assume these matchups are reliable (N slightly less so due to things like Zoroark and Carracosta). You could even X Speed on Cofagrigus to make the matchup even easier.
Also, you should live a Hydreigon Focus Blast from full.
FINAL RANKINGS:
Easy C. It can do some things in the final fights decently but is obviously inferior to Axew. On it's own merits though, it's pretty good and can sweep despite it's low Speed (most notably Brycen of all people).
Probably A if only for some prominent forum members supporting it. The main problem is being meh as Pignite once you get past Burgh, mostly because it has eh moves for awhile and its matchups peter out. It's not amazing at the endgame, but can do some things despite the matchups on paper.
Honestly, I can see Whimsicott as a D tier. On paper, it looks great with the ability to debuff bosses and set-up buffs. In practice and pretty much everywhere else, it struggles pretty much the whole game. Even in its best matchups it's very, very inefficient and isn't even guaranteed victories because so many things can go wrong. I'd rather use a Grass like Leavanny or Sawsbuck then put this on my team; at least the others can do something against mooks or land a solid hit when at a disadvantage. I don't see this as a C tier, it's mediocre at killing things which would be fine if its matchups like any Grass type weren't by and large terrible. I can sort of live with it in C, but I just can't see it on the level of even some of the other iffy Grass types like Leavanny in my opinion and I think it should drop. It's support moves aren't really that great outside of bosses either, there's plenty of things that can set Light Screen (Sigilyph naturally, Audino, etc). If you want a bulky supporter that can actually do things, just use an Audino (which, while not great, is just better).
Yeah, this should go back to S. It's hard to setup in a few of the final fights, but even then it has a solid EQ and coverage to fall back on. Finding it and the early rut kinda sucks, but once you get Excadrill the last few Gyms might as well not exist.
Not sure about this one, really. It's very solid up until the League, but once there, it's not great. In theory, it has super-effective moves on them. In practice, you fail to one-shot a lot of things, and against the last two Plasma battles it doesn't do much at all. It's one saving grace is that it's probably the most solid counter to Marshall, which pretty much everything else struggles with.
Can Archeops be S? I kind of want to say A because, while not useless, it doesn't have the sweeping potential Scrafty or Excadrill have. I'll think on this for a bit.
Honestly? I think Audino might have a shot at B. While you need to setup to do much with it, Serperior needs to as well and it is also in B. Since Serperior has a largely lacking maingame (and turns around a bit for the E4) while Audino has a pretty amazing maingame (only really fearing Clay) and falls off only slightly for the E4, I could see it in B (not to mention Audino gets an actual movepool to use). I can live with C but it is just so solid for 85% of the game, and has pretty great availability. The only things that kinda hold it back other than low offenses are having to rely on DoubleSlap until level 20, but since you should be 20 for Lenora anyway it's not that much of an issue since nothing early is ever killing you, as well as being a bit of an item hog as it comes with the territory of a bulky booster. However, many B tiers also have movepool issues (Deerling lacks Grass STAB for awhile, Seismitoad misses EQ, etc) or rely on items (Serperior). I wouldn't really say Audino is "matchup-based" like C-tier is described, as it only kinda sucks in like 3 battles and is great in all the others. Even then, you can sweep Ghetsis relatively easily with this thing (N is much more shaky due to 4MSS) so it isn't even terrible at endgame.
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THE UPDATE THAT IS THE NUMBER 4(the birbs and the bee..celegors)
Landing in Celestial Tower after our romp through the fields of Route 7, Kya and Mitosis cleaned house in the area. Getting to the unimportant and insignificant plot bell that does nothing other than to waster your time with positive reinforcement. Crashing into the Gym, Strawberry forze here sights on the leader: BIRB GURL.
VS JOLTIK GRIND(skyla)
Turn 1- Acrobat does 30% while the Cream Beam OHKO's
Turn 2- lol taunt, OHKO
Turn 3- Tanking an Air Slash for 20-25%, Cream Beam does over 50 fucking percent.
Turn 4- Flinched
Turn 5- Beam'd out by Vanilish
Honestly, this is great for everyone barring Callie and Kya. BossCass and Unfezant can spam Return and Mitosis fucks up everything but Swoobat, and even that is a 3HKO. Also what the actual fuck Unfezant doesn't get ACROBATICS?!
Crossing Route 7 yet again, Cheren stops us to see which is stronger. After wondering how his Liepard beat a Flying Gym, I went into Twist Mountain. Kya and Callie crushed their way through the competiton to make it to Icirius City(oh yeah, team plasma plasma free beezy whiy rival yadda yadda). I went over to buy Thunder and Blizzard for Mitosis and BossCass respectivley and went over to DragonSpiral's Tower grass to grind Kya to 39.
Befor fighting Brycen, i made sure to fight all the Trainers in the Gym to get Mitosis to evolve at Lvl 41. Now that I don't need the Eviolite for her, Strawberry gets it all to themselves to use. Of course, anybody whose played this game know what happens next.
VS. Brycen
So now that that's over withn it's time for a TEAM UPDATE
BossCass the Samurott(Hardy, Lvl 39)
Moves: Surf, Blizzord, Return, Revenge
This things just kinda hit's a rut when it just becomes OK and that's that. Nothing special, and it honestly doesn't hit very hard nor does it have a colorful movepool. This is a B Tier for me folks.
Mitosis(Lvl 41, Modest)@Quick Claw
Moves; Psychic, Flash Cannon, Thunder, Hidden Power
It took a Flare Blitz, mind you as an Eviolite Duosion from a Darmanitan.
If that isn't S Tier material, then what is?
Callie the Whimsicott(Modest, Lvl 39)@Amulet Coin
Moves: Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Growth
Honestly, I don't see 1/2 the hate for this. On one hand, the burst utility and the decent power it has is great, and it never needs to use it's support to fight regular trainers, and it has the bulk to work with it's moves. On the other hand, it's useless for the 2 Gyms i did, and the power loss is very noticeable(3HKOng a Wild Gurdurr). Still has a case for B Tier seeing the burst utility it has.
Unfezant(Hasty, Lvl 39)@Scope Shit
Moves: no acrobatics why u no give
Yeah, it doesn't get fucking Acrobatics. This is actually fucking worse than fucking Purrloin, at least that prick gets some nice moves to work with while this bitch here gets LOL RETURN/FLY. So many things live a hit and then take 50% away from it's health. E/Z Tier.
Strawberry the Vanilish(Hardy, Lvl 39)@Eviolite
Moves: Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, Acid Armor, Return
This thing gets wayyyy better when it evolves. It actually has some bulk and can hit fairly hard. Soloing Skyla isn't exactly a big feat(even fucking 50 Spa Joltik and 45 Spa Tynamo can do it). Still, it does it's job fairly well, so C Tier is a fair place for this.
Kya the Scrafty(Impish, Lvl 41)@Shell BEll
Moves: HJK, Brick BReak, Crunch, Work Up
S Tier lol.
Hopefully IRL doesn't stop UPDATE 5 FROM ENTERING THE PICTURE!
Edit: Quick question, does anything in the Battle Subway count for a mon's viability(EX. Life Orb for Sigilyph)
Landing in Celestial Tower after our romp through the fields of Route 7, Kya and Mitosis cleaned house in the area. Getting to the unimportant and insignificant plot bell that does nothing other than to waster your time with positive reinforcement. Crashing into the Gym, Strawberry forze here sights on the leader: BIRB GURL.
VS JOLTIK GRIND(skyla)
Turn 1- Acrobat does 30% while the Cream Beam OHKO's
Turn 2- lol taunt, OHKO
Turn 3- Tanking an Air Slash for 20-25%, Cream Beam does over 50 fucking percent.
Turn 4- Flinched
Turn 5- Beam'd out by Vanilish
Honestly, this is great for everyone barring Callie and Kya. BossCass and Unfezant can spam Return and Mitosis fucks up everything but Swoobat, and even that is a 3HKO. Also what the actual fuck Unfezant doesn't get ACROBATICS?!
Crossing Route 7 yet again, Cheren stops us to see which is stronger. After wondering how his Liepard beat a Flying Gym, I went into Twist Mountain. Kya and Callie crushed their way through the competiton to make it to Icirius City(oh yeah, team plasma plasma free beezy whiy rival yadda yadda). I went over to buy Thunder and Blizzard for Mitosis and BossCass respectivley and went over to DragonSpiral's Tower grass to grind Kya to 39.
Befor fighting Brycen, i made sure to fight all the Trainers in the Gym to get Mitosis to evolve at Lvl 41. Now that I don't need the Eviolite for her, Strawberry gets it all to themselves to use. Of course, anybody whose played this game know what happens next.
VS. Brycen
Were you expecting something. That's what they call Fake Out. Anyway, Kya is a Fighting-Type with a 130 BP move and Moxie, take a guess.
BossCass the Samurott(Hardy, Lvl 39)
Moves: Surf, Blizzord, Return, Revenge
This things just kinda hit's a rut when it just becomes OK and that's that. Nothing special, and it honestly doesn't hit very hard nor does it have a colorful movepool. This is a B Tier for me folks.
Mitosis(Lvl 41, Modest)@Quick Claw
Moves; Psychic, Flash Cannon, Thunder, Hidden Power
It took a Flare Blitz, mind you as an Eviolite Duosion from a Darmanitan.
If that isn't S Tier material, then what is?
Callie the Whimsicott(Modest, Lvl 39)@Amulet Coin
Moves: Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Growth
Honestly, I don't see 1/2 the hate for this. On one hand, the burst utility and the decent power it has is great, and it never needs to use it's support to fight regular trainers, and it has the bulk to work with it's moves. On the other hand, it's useless for the 2 Gyms i did, and the power loss is very noticeable(3HKOng a Wild Gurdurr). Still has a case for B Tier seeing the burst utility it has.
Unfezant(Hasty, Lvl 39)@Scope Shit
Moves: no acrobatics why u no give
Yeah, it doesn't get fucking Acrobatics. This is actually fucking worse than fucking Purrloin, at least that prick gets some nice moves to work with while this bitch here gets LOL RETURN/FLY. So many things live a hit and then take 50% away from it's health. E/Z Tier.
Strawberry the Vanilish(Hardy, Lvl 39)@Eviolite
Moves: Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, Acid Armor, Return
This thing gets wayyyy better when it evolves. It actually has some bulk and can hit fairly hard. Soloing Skyla isn't exactly a big feat(even fucking 50 Spa Joltik and 45 Spa Tynamo can do it). Still, it does it's job fairly well, so C Tier is a fair place for this.
Kya the Scrafty(Impish, Lvl 41)@Shell BEll
Moves: HJK, Brick BReak, Crunch, Work Up
S Tier lol.
Hopefully IRL doesn't stop UPDATE 5 FROM ENTERING THE PICTURE!
Edit: Quick question, does anything in the Battle Subway count for a mon's viability(EX. Life Orb for Sigilyph)
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No; it is inefficient, though possible.
Also Solosis isn't S tier. It is certainly very good, good enough to be A, but S tier inherently implies a stellar sweeper with the Speed that entails or stellar matchups (Scrafty). Not bashing it, I just don't see it in S.
Interested to see how Whimsicott fairs lategame.
UPDATE 5(FINALE)
After zooming past even more worthless fucking dialouge, I found my way to Opulecid City. Using Route 10 and the Gym. I trained everyone to 43, as they would all try a solo at the Gym.
Vs. NegativePriority using everyone as the only mon
Mitosis- Fraxure goes for Assurance Turn 1 to deal roughly 30 damage and I barely miss a one-shot, indicating a possible roll. Interestingly, the Quick Claw activates before Iris uses the Hyper Potion and my theory about the roll proves right as I one-shot it. Druddigon comes in and uses Night Slash for 50% of my health and I crit it to OHKO. I use a MooMoo Milk as Haxorus comes in to Slash for 40 damage. It then goes for Dragon Tail as i do 70% with Psychic and it does 50 damage. Shadow Ball finishes it off before it can spam negative priority.
Matchup- positive. Needs 1-2 healing items but can easily solo.
Kya- Fraxure is outsped and eats a HJK to live at 5% to DD. I take the Hyper Potion to use Work Up. Fraxure derps with DD and is one-shot. Druddigon is outsped and OHKO’d by a +2 HJK, and Haxorus derps with Dragon Tail and is one-shot.
Matchup- lol ez, no damage taken other than Rough Skin
Unfezant- Crit Return OHKO’s Fraxure and Druddigon. Haxorus takes 3 Returns, but considering Dragon Tail’s priority and Air Slash, one flinch is all that it takes to win this fight.
Matchup- Luck-dependent, but positive anyways.
BossCass- Blizzard OHKO’s Fraxure, but barely misses a OHKO on Druddigon and Haxorus. Surf puts them in the kill range though. One miss can kill this match, as Cass isn’t that bulky against their attacks.
Matchup- Heavily Luck-Dependent and not much PP to use, so average
Strawberry- Outspeeds and OHKO’s Fraxure. Druddigon does 90% with Revenge while i do the same with Ice Beam. Haxorus does 30% with DT, so Ice Beam spam wins
Matchup- If Druddigon doesn’t crit, then it’s easy peasy.
Callie- Leech Seed makes it so that Fraxure cannot possibly break you down with Dragon Tail, freeing me to spam Growth to +3. Shadow Ball takes it out while Druddigon also can’t do much and I 2HKO it with Shadow Ball. Haxorus nearly dies to SB but a SpDef drop seals the match
Matchup- Suprisingly easy. Just goes to show how much these guys are a pushover.
Victory Road was a pushover. Everyone swept clean except for Unfez who keeps dying. Making it to the Elite 4, I went out to train everyone to Vaniluxe’s evolving level of 47 for the Elite 4. I also taught Hurricane over Leech Seed for Callie, as the recovery won’t be neccesary for the Elite 4(yes i’m using Whimsy offensivley).
Edit: I actually almost got swept by a Lvl 40 Durant. Hustle got a crit and OHKO'd Cass and Kya, and it swept Unfezant, Callie and Strawberry. Mitosis managed to live at 1HP to OHKO with Thunder lol.
Will update with the Elite 4 as i go!
PART 5.33(E4)
Catlin: Everyone is Lvl 47
Using Strawberry as ameatdairyproductshield, I banked on taking a Focus Miss and it missed. Two fucking times. It finally hits and i get to OHKO with Mirror Coat. Gothy comes out and I heal, expecting a CM. It goes for Tbolt, and I use Ice Beam for ¼ of it’s health. SB crits and gets the FUCKING drop, and i’m forced to switch out to Kya to avoid a OHKO. Not having any of that CM bullshit, I C R U S H it with a crit Crunch. Sigilyph comes out and is promptly OHKO’d by Ice Beam from Strawberry, can't say anything else other than Air Slash has 95% accuracy. Berry hits 48 as Musharna realizes it’s F U C K E D as Unfezant comes in to only 3HKO with Return and dies to 2 Psychic’s(useless piece of shit birb). Strawberry Ice Beam’s it out.
Description: Vaniluxe is suprisingly good in this fight, as it can get a guarnteed kill on Reuni and Sigilyph, and can dent the other 2. Everyone else does OK except for Cass(THUNDER) and Unfezant.
Shauntal: Strawberry is 48, everyone else is 47
Callie leads using Growth on Cofagrigus as it derps with WOW, but it can 2HKO with SB. With proper healing with 2 Max Potions, it’s possible to get to +3 at which point SB OHKO’s Chandelure and DESTROYS Cofagrigus, and Giga Drain wrecks Jellicent and fucks up Golurk.
Without setting up, Callie leads to 3HKO with SB, but dies to 2 Shadow Balls. Kya comes in on the heal and uses the opportunity to set up to +1 and sweep with Crunch, barring a Flame Body burn(my luck)
Description : Still incredible that Callie can completely sweep this fight, but Shauntal’s Cofagrigus is far from set-up bait. Dennis’s Cofagrigus on the other hand….
IM BACK! Marshall(Using Callie, Mitosis and Unfezant)
Callie: Throh does shit with Bulldoze and can easily be exploited with Growth. One X accuracy is used to make Callie’s sweep more consistent. Throh dies to a +2 Hurricane, Mienshao derps with U-Turn and Sawk comes to eat a HURRICANE to the face. Marshall wastes his items as i finish it off. Mienshao misses Stone Edge and dies to Hurricane. Conkeldurr can’t outspeed.
Mitosis: Payback does about 30% to you while Psychic misses out on a OHKO. Marshall is stupid tho and wastes his 2 Full Restores on Throh while you simply spam Psychic to win. Full Restore on the Mienshao while U-Turn does 65% while it goes to Sawk. Stone Edge derp as Psychic brings it down to Sturdy and it misses AGAIN while Hidden Power finishes it off. Mienshao seems to like Reuniclus as it comes in again to spam Jump Kick for no fucking reason(it did this 2 TIMES) and Retaliate on T3 wtf while I bop it with Psychic. Conkeldurr can’t hit a move for it’s life and dies to Psychic.
Unfezant:FD T1 to help cushion the Stone Edge’s while it does 30% at -3 ohmagud. Fly gets a crit and OHKO’s Throh. Sawk comes in and is outsped and put at -3 while Stone Edge does 90% at -3 are we serious. Had to bring in Mitosis to take care of this boi while wasting his 2 Full Restores. Mienshao in and Unfez outspeeds and OHKO’s with Fly. Conkeldurr comes in and is promptly gets OHKO’d by a crit Fly.
BossCass: Surf does 25% to Throh while it spams Payback and c r i t s. FR while it goes for SE to do 35%. Tried Return which did even less while Bulldoze lowered speed and did 30%. Surf manages to kill the bulko while it’s SE does 35%. Sawk comes in on a FR while KC does 32% of my health. Sawk can’t hit a Stone Edge for it’s life but I barely miss a 2HKO on Sawk. After healing and attacking for 50%, Sawk missies the Stone Edge again and the cycle repeats again this time without healing. After landing the move, Sawk finally succumbs to Surf as Conkeldurr comes in. Outsped and taken out. Revive Cass by sacking Kya to a Hammer Arm. HA does 70% FLAT, so winning this battle is out of the question. Brought in Strawberry to sack and heal, and Mitosis to finish it off. Brought in on a clean switch to Mienshao who does Jump Kick for ½ of my health and Surf does the same but Mienshao’s speed means I lose this one.
Grimsley; Kya Strawberry and Cass at 48, rest at 47.
BossCass: Revenge has never tasted this sweet. Scarfty’s Crunch does about 35% while Revenge comes to a 2HKO, which can be maximized thanks to Surf. Krookodile can’t handle Surf, and it’s EQ does about 50%. Despite a need to heal, Bisharp is checked by our Fighting spirit and Liepard is.. well Liepard. Another heal and a Revenge to seal this match.
Mitosis: Bisharp is clean as HP Fighting OHKO’s and you eat the Slashes. Not anything else lol.
Strawberry: lolscraftylolbisharp. Liepard and Krookodile stand no chance to STAB BEAMS OF DEATH as they both get OHKO'd.
Kya: lol
Callie: Hurricane can only 2HKO Scrafty and Sand Attack’s a bitch. A +1 Hurricane can OHKO though, and you’ll need Growth anyways. Bisharp shits on your face saying “learn some actual coverage lmao”. Krook get’s wrekt by Giga Drain, and Liepard’s Aerial Ace stands no chance against the healing powers of CALLIE!
Unfezant: Crit Fly destroys Scrafty. Krookodile’s Intimidate is painful and it’s a healfest praying that he doesn’t go for the 2HKO Crunch and plays around with the 3HKO Foul Play and you get a FeatherDance off. and Liepard is slow af. Bisharp however just says “fuk birds imma slash”.
After zooming past even more worthless fucking dialouge, I found my way to Opulecid City. Using Route 10 and the Gym. I trained everyone to 43, as they would all try a solo at the Gym.
Vs. NegativePriority using everyone as the only mon
Mitosis- Fraxure goes for Assurance Turn 1 to deal roughly 30 damage and I barely miss a one-shot, indicating a possible roll. Interestingly, the Quick Claw activates before Iris uses the Hyper Potion and my theory about the roll proves right as I one-shot it. Druddigon comes in and uses Night Slash for 50% of my health and I crit it to OHKO. I use a MooMoo Milk as Haxorus comes in to Slash for 40 damage. It then goes for Dragon Tail as i do 70% with Psychic and it does 50 damage. Shadow Ball finishes it off before it can spam negative priority.
Matchup- positive. Needs 1-2 healing items but can easily solo.
Kya- Fraxure is outsped and eats a HJK to live at 5% to DD. I take the Hyper Potion to use Work Up. Fraxure derps with DD and is one-shot. Druddigon is outsped and OHKO’d by a +2 HJK, and Haxorus derps with Dragon Tail and is one-shot.
Matchup- lol ez, no damage taken other than Rough Skin
Unfezant- Crit Return OHKO’s Fraxure and Druddigon. Haxorus takes 3 Returns, but considering Dragon Tail’s priority and Air Slash, one flinch is all that it takes to win this fight.
Matchup- Luck-dependent, but positive anyways.
BossCass- Blizzard OHKO’s Fraxure, but barely misses a OHKO on Druddigon and Haxorus. Surf puts them in the kill range though. One miss can kill this match, as Cass isn’t that bulky against their attacks.
Matchup- Heavily Luck-Dependent and not much PP to use, so average
Strawberry- Outspeeds and OHKO’s Fraxure. Druddigon does 90% with Revenge while i do the same with Ice Beam. Haxorus does 30% with DT, so Ice Beam spam wins
Matchup- If Druddigon doesn’t crit, then it’s easy peasy.
Callie- Leech Seed makes it so that Fraxure cannot possibly break you down with Dragon Tail, freeing me to spam Growth to +3. Shadow Ball takes it out while Druddigon also can’t do much and I 2HKO it with Shadow Ball. Haxorus nearly dies to SB but a SpDef drop seals the match
Matchup- Suprisingly easy. Just goes to show how much these guys are a pushover.
Victory Road was a pushover. Everyone swept clean except for Unfez who keeps dying. Making it to the Elite 4, I went out to train everyone to Vaniluxe’s evolving level of 47 for the Elite 4. I also taught Hurricane over Leech Seed for Callie, as the recovery won’t be neccesary for the Elite 4(yes i’m using Whimsy offensivley).
Edit: I actually almost got swept by a Lvl 40 Durant. Hustle got a crit and OHKO'd Cass and Kya, and it swept Unfezant, Callie and Strawberry. Mitosis managed to live at 1HP to OHKO with Thunder lol.
Will update with the Elite 4 as i go!
PART 5.33(E4)
Catlin: Everyone is Lvl 47
Using Strawberry as a
Description: Vaniluxe is suprisingly good in this fight, as it can get a guarnteed kill on Reuni and Sigilyph, and can dent the other 2. Everyone else does OK except for Cass(THUNDER) and Unfezant.
Shauntal: Strawberry is 48, everyone else is 47
Callie leads using Growth on Cofagrigus as it derps with WOW, but it can 2HKO with SB. With proper healing with 2 Max Potions, it’s possible to get to +3 at which point SB OHKO’s Chandelure and DESTROYS Cofagrigus, and Giga Drain wrecks Jellicent and fucks up Golurk.
Without setting up, Callie leads to 3HKO with SB, but dies to 2 Shadow Balls. Kya comes in on the heal and uses the opportunity to set up to +1 and sweep with Crunch, barring a Flame Body burn(my luck)
Description : Still incredible that Callie can completely sweep this fight, but Shauntal’s Cofagrigus is far from set-up bait. Dennis’s Cofagrigus on the other hand….
IM BACK! Marshall(Using Callie, Mitosis and Unfezant)
Callie: Throh does shit with Bulldoze and can easily be exploited with Growth. One X accuracy is used to make Callie’s sweep more consistent. Throh dies to a +2 Hurricane, Mienshao derps with U-Turn and Sawk comes to eat a HURRICANE to the face. Marshall wastes his items as i finish it off. Mienshao misses Stone Edge and dies to Hurricane. Conkeldurr can’t outspeed.
Mitosis: Payback does about 30% to you while Psychic misses out on a OHKO. Marshall is stupid tho and wastes his 2 Full Restores on Throh while you simply spam Psychic to win. Full Restore on the Mienshao while U-Turn does 65% while it goes to Sawk. Stone Edge derp as Psychic brings it down to Sturdy and it misses AGAIN while Hidden Power finishes it off. Mienshao seems to like Reuniclus as it comes in again to spam Jump Kick for no fucking reason(it did this 2 TIMES) and Retaliate on T3 wtf while I bop it with Psychic. Conkeldurr can’t hit a move for it’s life and dies to Psychic.
Unfezant:FD T1 to help cushion the Stone Edge’s while it does 30% at -3 ohmagud. Fly gets a crit and OHKO’s Throh. Sawk comes in and is outsped and put at -3 while Stone Edge does 90% at -3 are we serious. Had to bring in Mitosis to take care of this boi while wasting his 2 Full Restores. Mienshao in and Unfez outspeeds and OHKO’s with Fly. Conkeldurr comes in and is promptly gets OHKO’d by a crit Fly.
BossCass: Surf does 25% to Throh while it spams Payback and c r i t s. FR while it goes for SE to do 35%. Tried Return which did even less while Bulldoze lowered speed and did 30%. Surf manages to kill the bulko while it’s SE does 35%. Sawk comes in on a FR while KC does 32% of my health. Sawk can’t hit a Stone Edge for it’s life but I barely miss a 2HKO on Sawk. After healing and attacking for 50%, Sawk missies the Stone Edge again and the cycle repeats again this time without healing. After landing the move, Sawk finally succumbs to Surf as Conkeldurr comes in. Outsped and taken out. Revive Cass by sacking Kya to a Hammer Arm. HA does 70% FLAT, so winning this battle is out of the question. Brought in Strawberry to sack and heal, and Mitosis to finish it off. Brought in on a clean switch to Mienshao who does Jump Kick for ½ of my health and Surf does the same but Mienshao’s speed means I lose this one.
Grimsley; Kya Strawberry and Cass at 48, rest at 47.
BossCass: Revenge has never tasted this sweet. Scarfty’s Crunch does about 35% while Revenge comes to a 2HKO, which can be maximized thanks to Surf. Krookodile can’t handle Surf, and it’s EQ does about 50%. Despite a need to heal, Bisharp is checked by our Fighting spirit and Liepard is.. well Liepard. Another heal and a Revenge to seal this match.
Mitosis: Bisharp is clean as HP Fighting OHKO’s and you eat the Slashes. Not anything else lol.
Strawberry: lolscraftylolbisharp. Liepard and Krookodile stand no chance to STAB BEAMS OF DEATH as they both get OHKO'd.
Callie: Hurricane can only 2HKO Scrafty and Sand Attack’s a bitch. A +1 Hurricane can OHKO though, and you’ll need Growth anyways. Bisharp shits on your face saying “learn some actual coverage lmao”. Krook get’s wrekt by Giga Drain, and Liepard’s Aerial Ace stands no chance against the healing powers of CALLIE!
Unfezant: Crit Fly destroys Scrafty. Krookodile’s Intimidate is painful and it’s a healfest praying that he doesn’t go for the 2HKO Crunch and plays around with the 3HKO Foul Play and you get a FeatherDance off. and Liepard is slow af. Bisharp however just says “fuk birds imma slash”.
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What would you say is the best moveset for Whimsicott? For me I used Charm, Giga Drain, Tailwind and Leech Seed pretty much the whole game.
In retrospect, I realize I could have relearned Growth for the E4, most likely replacing Tailwind. Still though, even with Growth, I can't see it above C in good conscience, primarily because other Grass-type boosters exist and its performance pre-E4 isn't really anything to write home about.
Is anyone else still interested in doing testing for this tier list?
I will be back once I take out some irl stuff and have more free time and interest in the games themselves.
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