ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread

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I've got a couple of nominations, a bit controversial perhaps so no h8 plz.

Beedrill down to B+: I've been playing with beedrill quite a lot and in comparison to other mons in A, I just don't think it fits the bill. Firstly, to this support of its placement: "it's the best momentum grabber in the tier", I would say it would be more accurate to say that it simply has the strongest u-turn in the tier (by far, indeed). "Momentum grabber" to me implies a pivoting role which beedrill most certainly is not with its minimal bulk and zero defensive utility coupled with its heavy hazards weakness. In fact, even as a momentum grabber in its most basic sense of forcing something out and getting some free damage and a switch, it is still heavily impaired by two factors, namely its reliance on protect before mega-evolving and the fact that u-turn isn't able to scare much out, only non scarfed dark types without sucker punch, grass types and normal alakazam which, is about 6 fairly commonly used pokemon in UU.

As for its role as a sweeper, there are a ton of things holding beedrill back. Firstly, it is out and revenge killed by what are probably the two best megas in the tier at the moment (aero and zam) the former of which can switch in to any of its moves and the latter of which can actually set up a sweep by tracing adaptability if it manages to come in on it. It is also beaten by the most common scarfers in the tier (though, in fairness, it isn't guilty of this vice as much as mega zam who also packs a u-turn weakness) and pretty much anything with priority. But more problematic is its inability to do anything to something with a high defense stat as well as things that can handle its rather poor coverage and have some recovery other than u-turn which is not a satisfactory solution in my view. This puts another notch below things like megadactyl which can use taunt or adapt its coverage quite well for its team's needs. There are a lot of these pokemon that are viable several common. Here's a list: crocune, crobat, gligar, hippowdon, mega aggron, bulkydactyl, mega luvdisc (all of which nearly always carry recovery apart from mega aggron).

On top of this, it requires a lot of support including hazards on the opponents side and hazards off its own because all its counters are less hazard weak than itself. Which forces you to run rapid spin without megatoise leaving you with donphan, forretress, starmie, or xatu (the former two aren't great choices as they are easy defog opportunities for the opponent).

So to summarize my rambly rant, no defensive utility at all, very predictable move set including a reliance on protect, a lot of common counters that teams will usually be packing anyway, inability to break walls and sweep and its price as your mega slot really mark beedrill as lower than A ranked in my opinion.

My second nomination has been mentioned by others but I don't recall it being reacted to and that is: Crobat to S it honestly has so much utility at the moment, checking more pokemon in the tier than I think anything else which is still able to carry recovery and with multiple utility options to boot on the same set as well as good coverage with one move and ability to run 3 sets effectively, defog, choice band, and stallbreaker toxic, the latter of which shines really well in a tier with things like crocune and subcoil zygarde running rampant. It really fits the S rank description "Reserved for Pokemon that are almost flawless in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and almost always brings a high reward. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are more than made up for by numerous positive traits."
 
Agreeing with Crobat to S and Beedrill drop (but not all the way to B+, but to A or maybe A-), but I'm here to nominate something else.

from B --> B+ or A-

Now, everybody knows that Toxicroak has Dry Skin, so it basically cockblocks most of the common bulky waters in the tier barring Extrasensory Suicune (which is uncommon because Ice Beam is usually the better choice) and Swampert which I somehow forgot about while originally writing this post. However, it also hits like a truck. With an Adamant Nature and a Life Orb, there are no switchins to this thing. The only relevant things Adamant Croak misses out on outspeeding are Nidoking and Chandelure, the former of which it would speed tie with anyway and the latter dies to a sucker punch and runs Modest a lot of the time. In addition, Croak doesn't even fear scald burns and gets a free switchin every time a bulky water comes in, which is pretty often if you run a fire type like Entei or Darmanitan. Swords Dance is nice for dealing with more defensive teams but is usually unnecessary against offense because it is so slow and relies on sucker punch. I personally feel that Ice Punch is better because it bops stuff like Gligar, Zygarde, the Nidos and Crobat on the switch in.

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 330-393 (101.5 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 94-111 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock (ok that actually is a counter)

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 292-344 (80.2 - 94.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 239-282 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (not a switch in, but prevents a wish when it is at less than half)

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 208-246 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 239-286 (71.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 244-289 (65.4 - 77.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 229-270 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 160 HP / 4 Def Fletchinder: 174-205 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (nice revenge m8)

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 134-159 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Edit @ below: obviously Toxicroak has its flaws and counters but I still think it deserves to be higher than it is. Also the reason I didn't advocate the SD set was because I don't have much experience with it tbh. also i meant that when it runs jolly it only speed ties nidoking which isn't worth it IMO

Not gonna touch on this much but Chesnaught to B+. More to come.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Assuming you are using any possible combination of:

Drain Punch/Ice Punch/Sucker Punch/Gunk Shot/Swords Dance there are still plenty of things that can switch on you so Toxicroak does have counters.

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 133-156 (31.6 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 82-97 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 42.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 322-382 (84 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 77-91 (23 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 118-140 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

All of these guys can OHKO or burn you.

Adamant Toxicroak doesn't really "tie" with Nidoking because Nidoking almost always use Timid or else they are usually better off as Nidoqueen. Granted a boosted Sucker Punch will KO but you don't really seem to be advocating SD on the set anyways.

Toxicroak doesn't get a free switch in on /all/ bulky waters. Swampert as I just showed is a clear example. Quagsire is in the same boat if that guy is still legal. Mega Blastoise if you consider that guy a bulky water can do serious damage with Dragon Pulse. Only Empoleon Vaporeon and Suicune give you very good chances but even then it is not a sure win, I for one use CM Extrasensory Suicune.

This is another reason why Spiritomb should be A+ or S rank.
 
Moreover, I think we can look at Beedrill's placing just a little more. Mega Alakazam was a premier check to it, now it has one less thing to worry about revenging it.
 
Now with 2 S rank mons leaving and with Rachi most likely leaving next cycle, that ranking seem kinda lonely. Thoughts on anything S rank worthy atm? I think M Aero is probably the closest to moving up with it being the fastest non scarfer in the tier now. Obviously not gonna nom anything just for the sake of filling vacancies, but those are just my thoughts.
 

Lord Wallace

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What about Hydreigon? I'm actually still not very clear on why it left S in the first place, it pretty much fits the description, theres hardly any risk in using it and it demolishing 95% of the metagame with Life Orb Dracos and Dark Pulses is the reward. It hardly needs any support to function and can run several sets though LO Roost and Scarf are imo its best, but Stallbreaker has its merits. Florges and other Fairy types aren't nearly as prevalent on teams as they used to be to counter this monster thanks to Mega Bee, Crobat, Nidoqueen, and Jirachi running rampant right now. I guess AV Machamp is also an issue for it but that thing is ass compared to CB Champ imo so yeah.
It's odd speed and vulnerability to Mega Beedrill (if not Scarfed) and Fairy types kind of falls into the category of "few flaws made up for by numerous positive traits", such as being the Pokemon with perhaps the most limited pool of switch ins in Underused, great offensive stats, crisp natural bulk (making it hard to RK with neutral hits), decent typing with many useful resistances, a great overall movepool that includes moves such as Superpower and Iron Tail to get past usual checks and a reliable recovery move so it isnt worn down as easily as other offensive threats, and an ok speed stat that is just fast enough to dismantle balanced and defensive teams, and just fast enough with a Scarf to break hyper offensive threats.
The banning of Mega Zam was also pretty big for Hydreigon as it lost a common potential revenge killer.
I'm satisfied with A+ Hydreigon but seeing it return to S would not surprise me either.

Another Pokemon I'd like to see rise is Mega Ampharos. It's pretty much a hard check to Crocune, Tentacruel, Crobat (a Pokemon many want to see in S, and I don't disagree), some Aerodactyl, and many Jirachi. Again It's one of those Pokemon with great natural bulk and that sweet and powerful slow Volt Switch is too good to pass up for any offensive teammates, and any Ground types that want to switch in fear Dragon Pulse (and considering it can easily be EV'd for Relaxed Pert, this is pretty big for it). And again Fairy types aren't the best thing right now so I think Amphy deserves A-. Plenty of reason to use it over another Mega on certain teams.
 
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To be honest, I don't know if anyone's getting the same feeling as I am, but ORAS UU's starting to feel like the latter half of XY UU (with a few extras ofc), so I wouldn't be surprised if Amph went back up to A+.
 

Lord Wallace

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To be honest, I don't know if anyone's getting the same feeling as I am, but ORAS UU's starting to feel like the latter half of XY UU (with a few extras ofc), so I wouldn't be surprised if Amph went back up to A+.
well my best team is still my late XY team so yeah that may be lol
 

dingbat

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Time to address some stuff

I'm perfectly fine with Beedrill dropping a little, but I don't see it anywhere below A rank. Beedrill's role never had anything to do with sweeping the opponent; it neither has the move slot nor the bulk to utilize Swords Dance. Its role was to do a lot of chip damage with its Adaptability-powered U-Turn and, given the right circumstances, clean the opposing team. However, I'm in on the opinion that this meta is really prepared for it right now than it has been since the start of ORAS meta, and I'm taking into account megazam/zyggy's deaths.

Celebi definitely deserves A+ rank; it has been performing solidly in many playstyles, whether used in stall, balance, or offense.

I have no problem with Croak and Chesnaught going to B+. Draggy too since two big threats to it are gone

Sheep is fine in A-

I'd like to see more input on s rank candidates

Changes will probably be made tomorrow, and they won't be limited to the ones addressed here
 
Agree completely with the celebi nomination, celebi definitely deserves A+. I'd also like to bring up raising mega swampert up a notch or two. It's completely underrated, and with rain set up for it, it can sweep entire teams. In addition, it has the perfect partner in tornados, making the two a very powerful duo. Swampert for A.

Edit: A battle showing celebi's potential:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-199876938
 
I'm going to agree with Celebi as well - it just handles itself so easily, deals with things like Swampert, and is an ideal Nasty Plot or Swords Dance passer to almost anything. Not to mention that it's got solid recovery options unto itself, with Giga Drain and Recover both in the movepool, and Natural Cure means that Burns and Toxic get shrugged off.

I'd add more but it's late.
 

mael

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I would like to see Mega Ampharos moving up to at least A-. In my opinion it should even be A or higher.

All the pokemon that are commonly used at the moment are either checked by Ampharos, or very useful in Combination with Ampharos. Crobat, Pidgeot, Jirachi, Suicune and Empoleon are all easily handled by Ampharos in most cases. And most of them can be used in combination with Ampharos for Voltturncores and they form a solid core, that has been used a lot in late XY UU. There is close to no drawbacks when you are using Ampharos, except that you use your megaslot. It is in my opinion the most antimeta Pokemon and just so easily to fit on teams. People are talking about Beedrill as an momentumgainer, but Amphy is so much better at that, because it can actually switch into moves. Good typing, good stats and so much utility, with close to no drawbacks and very little support required, isn't that enough for A?
 
Amph would be good in A- for now. I don't know about "close to no drawbacks" however as his volt switch is incredibly slow and cannot get him out of situations in a pinch vs. fast, hard hitting physical mons. While his slow volt switches are also one of his best traits for pivoting, offensively electric typing isn't particularly amazing in a meta where Swampert, Krook, Nidoqueen, and Gligar are everywhere.

Great mon, completely agree with A-, but would probably wait till the metagame shifts a little more to move it up to A as electric isn't really that good at the moment.
 
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Now that M Alakazam is gone and Rachi is leaving I can agree with Crobat moving to S. The only real threats to Crobat at this moment are M Aero, scarfers and maybe sash Alakazam. It's perfect support mon which can completely shut down annoing tanks like CroCune and Blissey. Even the most popular scarfers can't OHKO it:
252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 271-321 (72.6 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery <--you can just spam roost here
252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 256-302 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
From offensive standpoint it's also nice CB user which counters sub-stallers like Whimsicott.
Also I agree with M Ampharos going to A-. It has huge sp. attack and decent bulk. Ability while not the best may be handy, especially because it allows you to paralyze M Sceptile and M Absol. Slow volt switch can be handy to gain momentum against faster mon who uses u-turn/volt switch.
 
Alright, here's where people are going to start hating me, but I feel it's time that I actually get up and say something.

From C to B- or B.

I know that a lot of people don't like Flygon, but truth be told, it's severely underrated. Taking minimal damage from rocks, completely ignoring other hazards, Flygon poses enough threat with minimal setup due to the fact that it hits rather like a truck regardless - any time I see one I actually wish I had a Scarfrachi. Currently, I run an Adamant Flygon, and it still outspeeds almost everything sans Scarfers. And some calcs for those who think that it's a waste of time for me to say, here's some ideas.

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Aggron: 448-532 (130.2 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 446-528 (110.3 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That last one is rare unto itself from what I've seen. I'd pull up more, but it's all the same - if it outspeeds and lives, it typically one / two shots everything that I can think of.
Not to mention that it can u-turn ko Celebi with minimal health loss:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celebi: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It might need a layer of rocks up, but once this thing gets moving it really can be harder to stop.

please don't hurt me i'm new to smogon
 
On the contrary, Flygon with an adamant nature only outspeeds 18 of the most common sets out of the 40 'mons in A- through S ranks, and that's assuming none of them wear a scarf (many of which only become a speed tie with a Jolly nature but still).

Flygon's problem is that it's outperformed in any role it could ably do. As a Choice Banded ground-type, Krookodile outperforms it; Hydreigon and Haxorus are better wallbreaking Dragons; Crobat is a better offensive Defog user and Gligar is better as a defensive one. it has slight niches over each of those things, but its middling stats overall just don't do it any favors.
 
I guess that makes more sense. Looking back on it, I also tend to throw it more at slower walls where it does do a decent chunk of damage, but I guess it's a valid point that it gets outsped. I suppose the best thing it might have going is the role to do all of these things at the same time, perhaps. Otherwise, I'm not really sure anymore.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
On the Choice Band aspect I would argue it faces competition from CB Hydreigon which has a more spammable move in Crunch which hits just a little less hard. Also it has big time surprise value. As for your calcs we can only wish Chansey was legal again in UU :(
 

boltsandbombers

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On the Choice Band aspect I would argue it faces competition from CB Hydreigon which has a more spammable move in Crunch which hits just a little less hard. Also it has big time surprise value. As for your calcs we can only wish Chansey was legal again in UU :(
CB Hydreigon? What?? I know I probably shouldnt say anything here, but thats possibly the worst thing you could do to a hydreigon.
 
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