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• mediocre Atk stat for a Fighting-type Pokemon, meaning it suffers from a cruel lack of offensive pressure on bulky Pokemons, sometimes even with a +2 boost. Gligar, Suicune, Arcanine, heck even Aggron do what they want
While he does have a mediocre base 90 Atk, you can't forget he have a great setup move in Sword Dance nor that Close Combat is a 120 BP move, which certainly helps aiding his low atk.
• bad SpD: it sadly can't switch into Pokemons it's supposed to check, such as Empoleon, Florges, Whimsicott
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 148-175 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
a 3HKO tbh while
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 186-222 (51.6 - 61.6%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So a healthy Cobalion (or even a flinch lucky one) is a counter to Florges. Whimsicott is even weaker than Florges so it's certainly a solid check. About Empoleon,
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 124-147 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 338-398 (91.1 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
While not sporting the finest SpD stat, Cobalion is bulk enough to survive most attacks from the mons he is supposed to check. Cobalion might only have trouble against Empoleon because Scald is a shit broken move that hinders every physical attacker in this tier, but it's not a Cobalion problem.
• while its typing is pretty good, it still leaves Cobalion with disgusting weaknesses to the most common types (Ground, Fighting and Fire), limiting its role as a pivot
Krookodile and Mamoswine, two of the three premier ground types in UU, doesn't beat Coba 1v1, while Shuca Berry Coba has been a thing lately, surviving hits even after -1 from CC. No fighting type can check Cobalion without taking some damage, while ScarfShao can only revenge kill it at its best. The same can be said about suppose Fire types.
I'd like to point that all those weakness will probably be covered in any serious competitive team. Btw, type alone they can all be covered by Salamence, which shows how easy it would be to cover all of Coba "disgusting weaknesses".
• is complete setup fodder for dangerous Pokemons, too often leading to an ennemy killing spree: Doublade gets a free SD, Chandy can sub or CM, Reuni can CM or focus blast, Suicune sets up or spread free burns, even Salamence and Feraligatr can set up without fearing much from Coba (unless +2 or lucky flinches). That's way too much
Altho Coba isn't supposed to do all the work your team needs, you can always use Taunt on Coba, which is a legitimate option, if needs be. You can also volt switch out for your respective counter while dishing some little damage.
I don't know, while Coba sure have that role compression that imo guarantees it an S rank, you can't just ask it to do anything your team needs. Most of those problems are UU meta problems that every team needs to account, like having a Fire/Fighting resist or a Suicune counter. Coba just happen to help with (almost) everything else.
Well, i've been reading again all the Cobalion discussion to check if anyone has talked about the Magnet Rise set. While that move don't make him a Mamo's switch in, it makes him a great anti-lead vs Mamoswine or Krookodile. I'm on the fence about his rank as he has not a great set who centralize the meta like Suicune had back in his days, it's so versatile it's hard to say he's not on the top 5 mons in UU right now. Something like Clefable in OU.
And again, I'd like someone to explain me why my nomination on Weezing from C to B- was ignored. Weezing is one of the best Clear Smog users for Semi-stall and balance teams, being able to set down any set-up sweeper. I guess he suffers competition vs Amoonguss as he has a better mixed bulk and reliable recovery on Synthesis or Regenerator, Weezing has a much better support movepool on Will-o, Destiny Bond, Memento, or Toxic Spikes (as I explained on my last post) while Amoonguss "just" can Spore once, making Weezing a much less passive mon. Poison type along levitate allows him to check better physical attackers like Darmanitan, Entei, Heracross, or Mamoswine. The extra power on Fire Blast over HP Fire is huge to deal with steel types. I feel like Weezing's niche is bigger than everyone thinks.
Also I'll be trying to use Scyther and repost on the next days. Seems to be a potential Scarfer mon along Tecnician's Aerial Ace STAB, hitting harder than (non-mega) Aero
Has anyone tried Assault Vest Cobalion? That was my go-to set for a long time. It eats up uninvested neutral hits like nobody's business. It also beats almost every Hydreigon, especially since Fire-coverage has become extremely rare for it, and can actually switch in on anything but Modest Life Orb Fire Blast and is almost guaranteed to live.
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 100-118 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 84-99 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 265-315 (81.7 - 97.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Has anyone tried Assault Vest Cobalion? That was my go-to set for a long time. It eats up uninvested neutral hits like nobody's business. It also beats almost every Hydreigon, especially since Fire-coverage has become extremely rare for it, and can actually switch in on anything but Modest Life Orb Fire Blast and is almost guaranteed to live.
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 100-118 (30.8 - 36.4%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 84-99 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 265-315 (81.7 - 97.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The problem is that almost all of cobas best roles rely on support/setup moves or items that give it longevity/help it check threats. Among the move list we have rocks, double dance, and magnet rise, while on the item list we see LO, lefties, shuca, etc. Overall I would say AV coba is a huge misuse of the mon especially since it really doesn't have the natural power to support an AV set.
I don't agree with Cobalion to S. It does have the ability to fulfill multiple roles, but it is not particularly good at any of them. "Jack of all trades, master of none" describes Cobalion decently, except "jack of like four trades" would be more accurate.
Cobalion is depressingly weak. 90 base attack is plain terrible and a high base power STAB is not enough to change that. Note that it really cannot afford running Adamant, because being slower than Kyurem and everything higher is not worth the slight power increase. Sword Dance does boost Cobalion's attack to decent levels. However, without a boost it is far from threatening and even at +2 stopping it isn't particularly hard, as it isn't that hard to revenge kill and fails to OHKO a huge amount of Pokemon.
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 554-654 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 294-348 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
That's how weak it actually is. Before anyone decides to mention it isn't weak because it OHKOes the offensive Ice-type Pokemon with STAB Close Combat if SR are up: Those 3 calcs are there for reference and nothing else.
Now let's see some calcs at +2
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 226-268 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (X-scissor is insanely uncommon and situational. Cobalion is better off running Stone Edge for coverage)
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 236-278 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 342-404 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 235-277 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 162-192 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gligar: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 94-112 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 214-254 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 95-112 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 19.9% chance to 3HKO
Those are only walls and fat Pokemon. Now let's show something more offensive and frail
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cobalion could run Life Orb for more power, but that comes with significantly less longevity or increased vulnerability to statuses. I don't think Life Orb gains any notable KO anyway. (It OHKOs healthy Blissey with CC!)
So yeah, Cobalion is relatively weak for UU standards. Note that this doesn't mean Cobalion is bad, just that its power is fairly mediocre for an offensive Pokemon.
Defensively Cobalion has the typing, bulk and Speed to check a good amount of the Pokemon, which makes it good in offensive-ish teams. But imo it's a bit like Bulky Toxicroak: Checks many things, but only particularly good at dealing with a handful of them. You can patch up some weaknesses and make some threats more manageable with Cobalion, but most Pokemon can wear it down fairly fast or play around it.
How does Cobalion fare against top UU threats?
- Feraligatr: If it sets up, Cobalion loses. Can setup on Cobalion in a pinch
- Hydreigon: Fears Fire Blast, Draco Meteor does a ton if LO / Specs boosted, tanks Dark Pulse fairly well, doesn't care about U-turn. Additionally Cobalion outspeeds and OHKOes non-Scarf sets
- Reuniclus: Loses
- Salamence: Loses unless Scarf Mence locked into Dragon-type attack
- Suicune: Loses
- Mega Aerodactyl: EQ comfortably 2HKOes. Aerial Ace does about 37%. Realistically it can switch into Aero a couple times max
- Mega Beedrill: Comfortably deals with U-turn and Drill Run, which not all of them run, barely 2HKOs. Decent check
- Entei: With prediction Cobalion could sorta check Entei, but risky. Also it loses to Ass Vest
- Florges: Florges basically 2HKOes with Moonblast, it isn't OHKOed by Iron Head and it is the kind of Pokemon you run in teams that don't care about Cobalion.
- Krookodile: Needs to stay away from EQ, but even then it avoids the KO. Shuca makes switching in easier.
- Mamoswine: Basically the same as Krook, except it KOs, unless Shuca, or the Suicide lead set, which Cobalion doesn't like facing anyway.
- Mega Swampert: Loses
Overall, it's pretty bad at dealing with S and A+ Pokemon. If you go lower in the rankings you find better matchups like Mega Sharpedo, Mega Abosmanow, Mandibuzz, Snorlax, etc but it'll also have plenty of bad matchups.
Cobalion lacks the raw power to be considered S on that alone, it matches up poorly against S rank and other A+ Pokemon, and it doesn't even threaten most Pokemon lower than that. I don't exactly see why it deserves the S rank. The only other thing Cobalion has going for it is that it is somewhat versatile, which doesn't mean much when all its sets (all 3 of them: SD, support, RP. If every moveset combination counted as completely different set, Salamence would have 100~ viable sets) check / setup / beat / lose against practically the same Pokemon with a small amount of exceptions.
I don't agree with Cobalion to S. It does have the ability to fulfill multiple roles, but it is not particularly good at any of them. "Jack of all trades, master of none" describes Cobalion decently, except "jack of like four trades" would be more accurate.
Cobalion is depressingly weak. 90 base attack is plain terrible and a high base power STAB is not enough to change that. Note that it really cannot afford running Adamant, because being slower than Kyurem and everything higher is not worth the slight power increase. Sword Dance does boost Cobalion's attack to decent levels. However, without a boost it is far from threatening and even at +2 stopping it isn't particularly hard, as it isn't that hard to revenge kill and fails to OHKO a huge amount of Pokemon.
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 554-654 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 294-348 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
That's how weak it actually is. Before anyone decides to mention it isn't weak because it OHKOes the offensive Ice-type Pokemon with STAB Close Combat if SR are up: Those 3 calcs are there for reference and nothing else.
Now let's see some calcs at +2
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 226-268 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (X-scissor is insanely uncommon and situational. Cobalion is better off running Stone Edge for coverage)
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 236-278 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 342-404 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 235-277 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 162-192 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gligar: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 94-112 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 214-254 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 95-112 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 19.9% chance to 3HKO
Those are only walls and fat Pokemon. Now let's show something more offensive and frail
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cobalion could run Life Orb for more power, but that comes with significantly less longevity or increased vulnerability to statuses. I don't think Life Orb gains any notable KO anyway. (It OHKOs healthy Blissey with CC!)
So yeah, Cobalion is relatively weak for UU standards. Note that this doesn't mean Cobalion is bad, just that its power is fairly mediocre for an offensive Pokemon.
Defensively Cobalion has the typing, bulk and Speed to check a good amount of the Pokemon, which makes it good in offensive-ish teams. But imo it's a bit like Bulky Toxicroak: Checks many things, but only particularly good at dealing with a handful of them. You can patch up some weaknesses and make some threats more manageable with Cobalion, but most Pokemon can wear it down fairly fast or play around it.
How does Cobalion fare against top UU threats?
- Feraligatr: If it sets up, Cobalion loses. Can setup on Cobalion in a pinch
- Hydreigon: Fears Fire Blast, Draco Meteor does a ton if LO / Specs boosted, tanks Dark Pulse fairly well, doesn't care about U-turn. Additionally Cobalion outspeeds and OHKOes non-Scarf sets
- Reuniclus: Loses
- Salamence: Loses unless Scarf Mence locked into Dragon-type attack
- Suicune: Loses
- Mega Aerodactyl: EQ comfortably 2HKOes. Aerial Ace does about 37%. Realistically it can switch into Aero a couple times max
- Mega Beedrill: Comfortably deals with U-turn and Drill Run, which not all of them run, barely 2HKOs. Decent check
- Entei: With prediction Cobalion could sorta check Entei, but risky. Also it loses to Ass Vest
- Florges: Florges basically 2HKOes with Moonblast, it isn't OHKOed by Iron Head and it is the kind of Pokemon you run in teams that don't care about Cobalion.
- Krookodile: Needs to stay away from EQ, but even then it avoids the KO. Shuca makes switching in easier.
- Mamoswine: Basically the same as Krook, except it KOs, unless Shuca, or the Suicide lead set, which Cobalion doesn't like facing anyway.
- Mega Swampert: Loses
Overall, it's pretty bad at dealing with S and A+ Pokemon. If you go lower in the rankings you find better matchups like Mega Sharpedo, Mega Abosmanow, Mandibuzz, Snorlax, etc but it'll also have plenty of bad matchups.
Cobalion lacks the raw power to be considered S on that alone, it matches up poorly against S rank and other A+ Pokemon, and it doesn't even threaten most Pokemon lower than that. I don't exactly see why it deserves the S rank. The only other thing Cobalion has going for it is that it is somewhat versatile, which doesn't mean much when all its sets (all 3 of them: SD, support, RP. If every moveset combination counted as completely different set, Salamence would have 100~ viable sets) check / setup / beat / lose against practically the same Pokemon with a small amount of exceptions.
You bring up a ton of fair points here. Although, I disagree with you saying that is has a bad matchup vs other S and A+ rank mons, because frankly, it does not. I get that at +2 Cobalion cannot kill every pokemon in the world but that does not mean it doesn't fair well versus the pokemon it does not 1HKO at +2. Just because Cobalion cannot do a ton of damage to Suicune or Reuniclus does not mean Cobalion has bad matchup. Cobalion is especially great at getting Stealth Rock up, setting up an SD, and breaking one of the key defensive components to someones team(Like Suicune, Swampert, and Reuniclus). As for other pokemon in the VR like Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, etc, Cobalion has a great matchup. That does not necessarily mean Cobalion can switch into these pokemon with ease but it can however check almost the entire tier very well. The only pokemon that I think give an offensive Cobalion a poor matchup would be Defensive Slowking, T wave Cress, Doublade, and Gligar(Prob a few more dont kill me). If you look through the whole VR, Cobalion isn't deadweight to any team at all. I personally stick by my opinion on thinking Cobalion is S rank due to its versatility and compression, although I do respect your opinion as it is very fair.
I don't agree with Cobalion to S. It does have the ability to fulfill multiple roles, but it is not particularly good at any of them. "Jack of all trades, master of none" describes Cobalion decently, except "jack of like four trades" would be more accurate.
Cobalion is depressingly weak. 90 base attack is plain terrible and a high base power STAB is not enough to change that. Note that it really cannot afford running Adamant, because being slower than Kyurem and everything higher is not worth the slight power increase. Sword Dance does boost Cobalion's attack to decent levels. However, without a boost it is far from threatening and even at +2 stopping it isn't particularly hard, as it isn't that hard to revenge kill and fails to OHKO a huge amount of Pokemon.
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 554-654 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 294-348 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
That's how weak it actually is. Before anyone decides to mention it isn't weak because it OHKOes the offensive Ice-type Pokemon with STAB Close Combat if SR are up: Those 3 calcs are there for reference and nothing else.
Now let's see some calcs at +2
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 226-268 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (X-scissor is insanely uncommon and situational. Cobalion is better off running Stone Edge for coverage)
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 236-278 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 342-404 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 235-277 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 162-192 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gligar: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 94-112 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 214-254 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 95-112 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 19.9% chance to 3HKO
Those are only walls and fat Pokemon. Now let's show something more offensive and frail
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cobalion could run Life Orb for more power, but that comes with significantly less longevity or increased vulnerability to statuses. I don't think Life Orb gains any notable KO anyway. (It OHKOs healthy Blissey with CC!)
So yeah, Cobalion is relatively weak for UU standards. Note that this doesn't mean Cobalion is bad, just that its power is fairly mediocre for an offensive Pokemon.
Defensively Cobalion has the typing, bulk and Speed to check a good amount of the Pokemon, which makes it good in offensive-ish teams. But imo it's a bit like Bulky Toxicroak: Checks many things, but only particularly good at dealing with a handful of them. You can patch up some weaknesses and make some threats more manageable with Cobalion, but most Pokemon can wear it down fairly fast or play around it.
How does Cobalion fare against top UU threats?
- Feraligatr: If it sets up, Cobalion loses. Can setup on Cobalion in a pinch
- Hydreigon: Fears Fire Blast, Draco Meteor does a ton if LO / Specs boosted, tanks Dark Pulse fairly well, doesn't care about U-turn. Additionally Cobalion outspeeds and OHKOes non-Scarf sets
- Reuniclus: Loses
- Salamence: Loses unless Scarf Mence locked into Dragon-type attack
- Suicune: Loses
- Mega Aerodactyl: EQ comfortably 2HKOes. Aerial Ace does about 37%. Realistically it can switch into Aero a couple times max
- Mega Beedrill: Comfortably deals with U-turn and Drill Run, which not all of them run, barely 2HKOs. Decent check
- Entei: With prediction Cobalion could sorta check Entei, but risky. Also it loses to Ass Vest
- Florges: Florges basically 2HKOes with Moonblast, it isn't OHKOed by Iron Head and it is the kind of Pokemon you run in teams that don't care about Cobalion.
- Krookodile: Needs to stay away from EQ, but even then it avoids the KO. Shuca makes switching in easier.
- Mamoswine: Basically the same as Krook, except it KOs, unless Shuca, or the Suicide lead set, which Cobalion doesn't like facing anyway.
- Mega Swampert: Loses
Overall, it's pretty bad at dealing with S and A+ Pokemon. If you go lower in the rankings you find better matchups like Mega Sharpedo, Mega Abosmanow, Mandibuzz, Snorlax, etc but it'll also have plenty of bad matchups.
Cobalion lacks the raw power to be considered S on that alone, it matches up poorly against S rank and other A+ Pokemon, and it doesn't even threaten most Pokemon lower than that. I don't exactly see why it deserves the S rank. The only other thing Cobalion has going for it is that it is somewhat versatile, which doesn't mean much when all its sets (all 3 of them: SD, support, RP. If every moveset combination counted as completely different set, Salamence would have 100~ viable sets) check / setup / beat / lose against practically the same Pokemon with a small amount of exceptions.
Okay first off, I want to say this a very good post and you make many good points that you have backed up with calcs ect. However, I dont think that this analysis is a fair representation of Cobalion. Maybe Cobalion cant beat top tier threats 1v1 but thats why pokemon is a team game. You have 5 other pokemon on your team to compliment Cobalion. I think what everyone is trying to point out is that Cobalion is an asset to any team because of its ability to fill multiple roles and condense roles into one mon slot. Also Cobalion has access to Volt Switch which greatly minimizes its its weaknesses. If you see a team with Cobalion and Banded Krook, are you going to switch your Cress or Slowking into that Cobalion? You might, but its a risk. Its unfair to point out that losing 1v1 matchups makes a pokemon not worthy of S rank because S rank isnt about 1v1ing top threats. Its about being a versatile asset in teambuilding and constantly being of use battle after battle. Like look at Cobalions move pool. It has rocks, SD, CM, taunt, rock polish, volt switch, thunder wave. How many mons have that many viable sets? None. Maybe mathematically Cobalion isnt the strongest mon in the tier but I would agrue that it is, by far, the most versatile and that versatility is what makes it deserving of S rank.
The inability to 1v1 top tier threats means you give free turns to top tier threats which is generally a BAD IDEA.
(Note: the following is by no means directed at any specific poster or nomination)
The old definition of viability for S rank that clearly defined what "fantastic in the UU metagame" means read as follows.
S Rank: Reserved for pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little
support, and pokemon who can support other pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free
turns"). Also the home of pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing
their versatility and unpredictability. If the pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are
thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Which leads me to a semi bizarre nomination...
Can we swap back to this style of viability description? It's way easier to objectively debate a mons' viability based on an accurate definition of what makes a pokemon effective in a given metagame. As is we seem to be devolving into "I used x and it was good". To be completely fair this is a legitimate argument for moving up and down the +/- grades but arguing this for entire ranks is a pretty huge logical fallacy.
What jjosh said is absolutely correct. Mega Aero held its spot in S for such a long time because it could reliably solo entire Hyper Offense teams (ironically in this conversation, Cobalion's rising popularity hurt Aero's standin in the tier). Requiring team support when faced with the best Pokemon in the tier is damning evidence, not supporting. Any time you have to mention team support (outside of something like Stealth Rock), that's a mark against a Pokemon in a VR thread.
The inability to 1v1 top tier threats means you give free turns to top tier threats which is generally a BAD IDEA.
(Note: the following is by no means directed at any specific poster or nomination)
The old definition of viability for S rank that clearly defined what "fantastic in the UU metagame" means read as follows.
S Rank: Reserved for pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little
support, and pokemon who can support other pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free
turns"). Also the home of pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing
their versatility and unpredictability. If the pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are
thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Which leads me to a semi bizarre nomination...
Can we swap back to this style of viability description? It's way easier to objectively debate a mons' viability based on an accurate definition of what makes a pokemon effective in a given metagame. As is we seem to be devolving into "I used x and it was good". To be completely fair this is a legitimate argument for moving up and down the +/- grades but arguing this for entire ranks is a pretty huge logical fallacy.
The definitions of the rank will not stop these types of arguments, as a matter of fact the new definition for S is basically the same thing just worded differently. The reason that neither definition will give us a more strict basis to judge on, is that VR has been, and always will be, extremely subjective. How many mons does it have to wall, how many mons it gives free turns to, what it beats, how you use it, etc. Hell half the conversations we see in this thread go somewhere along the line of "well if you have hazards up" or "if your opp lets their checks get weakened" or even "If you keep momentum" none of these are bad arguments, all of them apply to the viability of a mon and are realistic scenarios, however you can't prove certain conditions will be met every battle. This is just the way pokemon is, the game we play has such a variety of tactics, outcomes, sets, and more that when discussing a mons position in the tier it will almost always be semi vague.
As for coba to S I have to disagree, I think coba is the most splashable mon in the tier but that does not make it S material. Hikari said it so well that there is almost no point in me saying it but frankly coba allows too many mons to have free turns. Other S rank mons have a similar flaw however their set variety allows them to check different things while coba sets are usually checked by the same group of mons. I would say more on the subject but hikari literally posted everything I would say just figured I would say I agreed with him since I was posting anyway.
To say any Mon dosent require team support is wrong in my opinion. Every single S rank mon requires team support to fuction. Being able to have team support is a good thing when a mon is functioning on a pivot and using a momentum gaining move (such as uturn/volt switch.) Which goes back to then point of Cobalion being able to fill multiple roles. You build a team and Cobalion can fill the holes because it can do so many things.
You cannot just build a team and throw a random S rank mon on it and expect it to do well. In that case a team with all 5 S rank mons would by default be the best team possible to build. You always build with a goal in mind. So each mon has to do its part to make the team function as a unit. Every single S rank mon has a role on the overall team. You have to build around them taking into account their strengths and weaknesses. So giving something a free turn could literally mean nothing if you have a counter for them on your team.
Like all those calcs dont mean anything if you are using Cobalion as a taunt rocker utility pivot. Its the same as how all DD Mences calc dont mean anything if you are using it as a defogger. Now you can build a team specifically to help Cobalion do anything. Thats why people want Cobalion S because it can do so many things. Like Teal showed how deadly Double Dance Cob can be in his open matches. But his teams were built to allow Cobalion to fill that role. Thats the beauty of Cobalion, its ability to fill so many possible roles for your team.
I guess I dont understand the thread because I thought the term "viable" (which means capable of working successfully) would favor mons that are viable in different roles and not just mons who are win cons. I understand Win Cons WIN the game but still. Like maybe we can make a different thread called "Mons you use to win the game" then yeah maybe Cobalion isnt as good in that thread.
Hello although im not as "adapt" at uu as the rest of you i thought i might drop by and i see everyone on a basic 50/50 split on cobalion to S rank.
What prevents it from being S is basically every point Hikaria made (amazing post btw)
best rebuttle is done by Im Actually Cash
What makes that such an excellent rebuttle to Hikaris post is that simple we have all designated cobalion....so who are the other 5 mons? Cobalion functions on almost every play style from stall to balance to hyper offense and everything in between. It brings a lot of versatility able to run quite a few sets which always provide a little surprise factor on how you will have to play against it. Team Support is the biggest argument for this because in the end if a pokemon can not support even one other pokemon in anyway it generally hampers your ability to win. Cobalion provides support in its sweeping/wall breaking capabilities/sr and thunder wave support/volt switch momentum/Check and Counter its own array of pokemon easiest example for myself being Mbee. That is its personal versitility and the support these sets can bring to many assortment of teams and play styles is definitely something to consider
Apologies if this post is at all scattered and unprofessional i am still fairly new to uu.
You bring up a ton of fair points here. Although, I disagree with you saying that is has a bad matchup vs other S and A+ rank mons, because frankly, it does not. I get that at +2 Cobalion cannot kill every pokemon in the world but that does not mean it doesn't fair well versus the pokemon it does not 1HKO at +2. Just because Cobalion cannot do a ton of damage to Suicune or Reuniclus does not mean Cobalion has bad matchup. Cobalion is especially great at getting Stealth Rock up, setting up an SD, and breaking one of the key defensive components to someones team(Like Suicune, Swampert, and Reuniclus). As for other pokemon in the VR like Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, etc, Cobalion has a great matchup. That does not necessarily mean Cobalion can switch into these pokemon with ease but it can however check almost the entire tier very well. The only pokemon that I think give an offensive Cobalion a poor matchup would be Defensive Slowking, T wave Cress, Doublade, and Gligar(Prob a few more dont kill me). If you look through the whole VR, Cobalion isn't deadweight to any team at all. I personally stick by my opinion on thinking Cobalion is S rank due to its versatility and compression, although I do respect your opinion as it is very fair.
It definitely matches up poorly with them, especially if you consider one of the main argument for Cobalion for S is that "it checks top threats". Most Pokemon at the top (S and A+ rank) beat or play around Cobalion without much issue (For example, Aero and Beedrill are one prediction away from beating Cobalion without losing any health and they can wear it down to the point they won't need to predict to win). It doesn't even check a significant amount of lower rank Pokemon:
(didn't want to make this long ass list, but fuck it)
- Mega Abomasnow: Checks it nicely. Takes 40% from Blizzard tho
- Azelf: No
- Mega Blastoise: No
- Chandelure: No
- Doublade: No
- Empoleon: Can sorta switch into defensive versions. Offensive versions do 71% min with unboosted Hydro Pump. Scald
- Heracross: Can switch into Megahorn and some coverage moves if Choice Heracross. Non-choiced version wins because Iron Head does 50% max
- Mandibuzz: Mandi can't touch Cobalion
- Mienshao: Can switch into some moves, but doesn't like HJK or U-turn
- Nidoqueen: No
- Porygon2: Doesn't get 2HKOed by anything (even HP Fire) and Lum help with status. Status are a problem tho, because unboosted Cobalion barely 2HKOs with CC
- Rotom-C: Cobalion can switch into Scarf Leaf Storm. Specs does 55% min
- Mega Sharpedo: Waterfall doesn't 2HKO. EQ is definitely a problem.
- Shaymin: Can switch into Scarf Shaymin if it avoids the drops
- Slowking: No
- Snorlax: Choice Band EQ can be a problem, but requires prediction and that set is relatively uncommon. Cobalion deals with Curse Lax nicely.
- Whimsicott: Moonblast practically 2HKOs, U-turn gains momentum. It can switch into Giga and Encore
- Mega Aggron: Aggron consistently 1v1s Cobalion
- Mega Ampharos: No
- Cresselia: No
- Crobat: No
- Dragalge: Dragon Pulse 2HKOs. Draco Meteor does 85%~. Coba can switch into Sludge Wave / Bomb
- Forretress: "Yes". Forry Spins and Volt Switches on Coba's face tho
- Froslass: No
- Infernape: No
- Kyurem: Can switch into its STABs at least once. Ok check
- Lucario: Coba can't switch in directly, but one of the few Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill +2 Attack Lucario in offense, as it doesn't care about Extreme Speed or Bullet Punch. Useless against NP Luke
- Machamp: No
- Mega Sceptile: Can switch into Leaf Storm to make Sceptile more manageable, but -2 Focus Blast kills after Leaf Storm damage.
- Slurpuff: +6 252 Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 380-448 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Without a boost Cobalion doesn't care about Drain Punch
- Swampert: No
- Tangrowth: No
- Toxicroak: No
- Tyrantrum: x4 resists Head Smash. That alone means it is a good Tyrant check
- Venomoth: Doesn't get 2HKOd by +1 Insect Plate Bug Buzz, but Iron Head doesn't KO after SR. Still a fairly good check
Do I need to do Bs to show it doesn't check a significant portion of the tier? And I'm just lowering the bar there, your statement implies it checks almost all of it, which is not even remotely close to be true.
"The only pokemon that I think give an offensive Cobalion a poor matchup would be Defensive Slowking, T wave Cress, Doublade, and Gligar(Prob a few more dont kill me)."
Poor matchup doesn't mean it can't do absolutely anything against those Pokemon. It's just that under reasonable battle conditions Cobalion consistently loses to them or cannot switch in, which means it doesn't reliably check them.
If what you are looking is Cobalion counters that beat +2 Cobalion almost 100% of the times you have: Cresselia, Slowking, Reuniclus, Doublade, Gligar, (Mega) Swampert, Nidoqueen, Tentacruel, Chesnaught, Jellicent and more uncommon stuff. But that's not "matching up poorly", that's "horrendous, borderline unwinnable matchup".
Okay first off, I want to say this a very good post and you make many good points that you have backed up with calcs ect. However, I dont think that this analysis is a fair representation of Cobalion. Maybe Cobalion cant beat top tier threats 1v1 but thats why pokemon is a team game. You have 5 other pokemon on your team to compliment Cobalion. I think what everyone is trying to point out is that Cobalion is an asset to any team because of its ability to fill multiple roles and condense roles into one mon slot. Also Cobalion has access to Volt Switch which greatly minimizes its its weaknesses. If you see a team with Cobalion and Banded Krook, are you going to switch your Cress or Slowking into that Cobalion? You might, but its a risk. Its unfair to point out that losing 1v1 matchups makes a pokemon not worthy of S rank because S rank isnt about 1v1ing top threats. Its about being a versatile asset in teambuilding and constantly being of use battle after battle. Like look at Cobalions move pool. It has rocks, SD, CM, taunt, rock polish, volt switch, thunder wave. How many mons have that many viable sets? None. Maybe mathematically Cobalion isnt the strongest mon in the tier but I would agrue that it is, by far, the most versatile and that versatility is what makes it deserving of S rank.
Cobalion has team support, that's a given, but you are ignoring that team support has to deal with the opposite team support. So statements like this:
"If you see a team with Blissey and Chestnaught, are you going to switch your Cobalion into that Blissey? You might, but its a risk"
Are pointless.
Using "team support" as an argument is silly, considering that affects almost all Pokemon equally and nothing is really guaranteed. It's not like we are talking about "Gothitelle trapping half of the UU tier" levels of support here.
Being S isn't only about 1v1ing Pokemon. But if part of the argument for Cobalion for S is based on "it checks many top threats", pointing out how poorly it deals with top threats is a good counterargument.
I also mentioned how overrated its versatility is. If having a decent amount of moveset combinations or being "unique" was enough to make it S, things like Empoleon (Scald, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Scald, Flash Cannon, Stealth Rock, Roar, Defog, Knock Off, Agility, Sword Dance, Aqua Jet, Drill Peck, Waterfall) would be S. Salamence and Hydreigon are fairly versatile, but they wouldn't be S if they didn't threaten almost every single Pokemon in the tier without even needing to setup. Reuniclus is the least versatile Pokemon in S, but it only needs 2 sets to be one of the most consistent win conditions against all playstyles. All offensive Cobalion sets that have basically the same significant amount of checks and counters, and the support set is fairly situational, hard to fit in most teams, and drastically less useful than the other two.
To say any Mon dosent require team support is wrong in my opinion. Every single S rank mon requires team support to fuction. Being able to have team support is a good thing when a mon is functioning on a pivot and using a momentum gaining move (such as uturn/volt switch.) Which goes back to then point of Cobalion being able to fill multiple roles. You build a team and Cobalion can fill the holes because it can do so many things.
You cannot just build a team and throw a random S rank mon on it and expect it to do well. In that case a team with all 5 S rank mons would by default be the best team possible to build. You always build with a goal in mind. So each mon has to do its part to make the team function as a unit. Every single S rank mon has a role on the overall team. You have to build around them taking into account their strengths and weaknesses. So giving something a free turn could literally mean nothing if you have a counter for them on your team.
Like all those calcs dont mean anything if you are using Cobalion as a taunt rocker utility pivot. Its the same as how all DD Mences calc dont mean anything if you are using it as a defogger. Now you can build a team specifically to help Cobalion do anything. Thats why people want Cobalion S because it can do so many things. Like Teal showed how deadly Double Dance Cob can be in his open matches. But his teams were built to allow Cobalion to fill that role. Thats the beauty of Cobalion, its ability to fill so many possible roles for your team.
I guess I dont understand the thread because I thought the term "viable" (which means capable of working successfully) would favor mons that are viable in different roles and not just mons who are win cons. I understand Win Cons WIN the game but still. Like maybe we can make a different thread called "Mons you use to win the game" then yeah maybe Cobalion isnt as good in that thread.
I'm just going to focus on the last paragraph because I don't want to repeat myself.
All Pokemon in the OP are "viable". Low rank Pokemon can fulfill multiple roles, for example Porygon Z (NP, Agility, Dual Dance [just like Cobalion!], Specs, Scarf, Mix) and Kingdra (Sub DD, Chesto Rest, Critdra, RD Special, Mix RD), and high rank Pokemon can fulfill a small amount of roles, for example Reuniclus (CM, OTR) and Mega Beedrill (U-turn ?_?). Having many sets doesn't mean anything, because the thread favors Pokemon that can effectively use their tools to win.
Pokemon is about winning. The only goal in mind when you teambuild is winning. Why would the system favor the Pokemon that can run "multiple" viable sets (In Cobalion case, it can run 3 decent sets) over a Pokemon that is a massive threat to most of the metagame and consistently creates win conditions, directly or indirectly. Don't get me wrong, Cobalion can definitely create win conditions, but not on the same level as Pokemon such as Suicune, Salamence or Reuniclus, or other A+ Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Swampert.
No viability ranking has the most versatile Pokemon of the tier at the top.
It definitely matches up poorly with them, especially if you consider one of the main argument for Cobalion for S is that "it checks top threats". Most Pokemon at the top (S and A+ rank) beat or play around Cobalion without much issue (For example, Aero and Beedrill are one prediction away from beating Cobalion without losing any health and they can wear it down to the point they won't need to predict to win). It doesn't even check a significant amount of lower rank Pokemon:
(didn't want to make this long ass list, but fuck it)
- Mega Abomasnow: Checks it nicely. Takes 40% from Blizzard tho
- Azelf: No
- Mega Blastoise: No
- Chandelure: No
- Doublade: No
- Empoleon: Can sorta switch into defensive versions. Offensive versions do 71% min with unboosted Hydro Pump. Scald
- Heracross: Can switch into Megahorn and some coverage moves if Choice Heracross. Non-choiced version wins because Iron Head does 50% max
- Mandibuzz: Mandi can't touch Cobalion
- Mienshao: Can switch into some moves, but doesn't like HJK or U-turn
- Nidoqueen: No
- Porygon2: Doesn't get 2HKOed by anything (even HP Fire) and Lum help with status. Status are a problem tho, because unboosted Cobalion barely 2HKOs with CC
- Rotom-C: Cobalion can switch into Scarf Leaf Storm. Specs does 55% min
- Mega Sharpedo: Waterfall doesn't 2HKO. EQ is definitely a problem.
- Shaymin: Can switch into Scarf Shaymin if it avoids the drops
- Slowking: No
- Snorlax: Choice Band EQ can be a problem, but requires prediction and that set is relatively uncommon. Cobalion deals with Curse Lax nicely.
- Whimsicott: Moonblast practically 2HKOs, U-turn gains momentum. It can switch into Giga and Encore
- Mega Aggron: Aggron consistently 1v1s Cobalion
- Mega Ampharos: No
- Cresselia: No
- Crobat: No
- Dragalge: Dragon Pulse 2HKOs. Draco Meteor does 85%~. Coba can switch into Sludge Wave / Bomb
- Forretress: "Yes". Forry Spins and Volt Switches on Coba's face tho
- Froslass: No
- Infernape: No
- Kyurem: Can switch into its STABs at least once. Ok check
- Lucario: Coba can't switch in directly, but one of the few Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill +2 Attack Lucario in offense, as it doesn't care about Extreme Speed or Bullet Punch. Useless against NP Luke
- Machamp: No
- Mega Sceptile: Can switch into Leaf Storm to make Sceptile more manageable, but -2 Focus Blast kills after Leaf Storm damage.
- Slurpuff: +6 252 Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 380-448 (117.6 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Without a boost Cobalion doesn't care about Drain Punch
- Swampert: No
- Tangrowth: No
- Toxicroak: No
- Tyrantrum: x4 resists Head Smash. That alone means it is a good Tyrant check
- Venomoth: Doesn't get 2HKOd by +1 Insect Plate Bug Buzz, but Iron Head doesn't KO after SR. Still a fairly good check
Do I need to do Bs to show it doesn't check a significant portion of the tier? And I'm just lowering the bar there, your statement implies it checks almost all of it, which is not even remotely close to be true.
"The only pokemon that I think give an offensive Cobalion a poor matchup would be Defensive Slowking, T wave Cress, Doublade, and Gligar(Prob a few more dont kill me)."
Poor matchup doesn't mean it can't do absolutely anything against those Pokemon. It's just that under reasonable battle conditions Cobalion consistently loses to them or cannot switch in, which means it doesn't reliably check them.
If what you are looking is Cobalion counters that beat +2 Cobalion almost 100% of the times you have: Cresselia, Slowking, Reuniclus, Doublade, Gligar, (Mega) Swampert, Nidoqueen, Tentacruel, Chesnaught, Jellicent and more uncommon stuff. But that's not "matching up poorly", that's "horrendous, borderline unwinnable matchup".
Cobalion has team support, that's a given, but you are ignoring that team support has to deal with the opposite team support. So statements like this:
"If you see a team with Blissey and Chestnaught, are you going to switch your Cobalion into that Blissey? You might, but its a risk"
Are pointless.
Using "team support" as an argument is silly, considering that affects almost all Pokemon equally and nothing is really guaranteed. It's not like we are talking about "Gothitelle trapping half of the UU tier" levels of support here.
Being S isn't only about 1v1ing Pokemon. But if part of the argument for Cobalion for S is based on "it checks many top threats", pointing out how poorly it deals with top threats is a good counterargument.
I also mentioned how overrated its versatility is. If having a decent amount of moveset combinations or being "unique" was enough to make it S, things like Empoleon (Scald, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Scald, Flash Cannon, Stealth Rock, Roar, Defog, Knock Off, Agility, Sword Dance, Aqua Jet, Drill Peck, Waterfall) would be S. Salamence and Hydreigon are fairly versatile, but they wouldn't be S if they didn't threaten almost every single Pokemon in the tier without even needing to setup. Reuniclus is the least versatile Pokemon in S, but it only needs 2 sets to be one of the most consistent win conditions against all playstyles. All offensive Cobalion sets that have basically the same significant amount of checks and counters, and the support set is fairly situational, hard to fit in most teams, and drastically less useful than the other two.
I'm just going to focus on the last paragraph because I don't want to repeat myself.
All Pokemon in the OP are "viable". Low rank Pokemon can fulfill multiple roles, for example Porygon Z (NP, Agility, Dual Dance [just like Cobalion!], Specs, Scarf, Mix) and Kingdra (Sub DD, Chesto Rest, Critdra, RD Special, Mix RD), and high rank Pokemon can fulfill a small amount of roles, for example Reuniclus (CM, OTR) and Mega Beedrill (U-turn ?_?). Having many sets doesn't mean anything, because the thread favors Pokemon that can effectively use their tools to win.
Pokemon is about winning. The only goal in mind when you teambuild is winning. Why would the system favor the Pokemon that can run "multiple" viable sets (In Cobalion case, it can run 3 decent sets) over a Pokemon that is a massive threat to most of the metagame and consistently creates win conditions, directly or indirectly. Don't get me wrong, Cobalion can definitely create win conditions, but not on the same level as Pokemon such as Suicune, Salamence or Reuniclus, or other A+ Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Swampert.
No viability ranking has the most versatile Pokemon of the tier at the top.
"If you see a team with Blissey and Chestnaught, are you going to switch your Cobalion into that Blissey? You might, but its a risk"
This statement is completely different because doubling is different then volt switching.
But overall I see how you dont see Cobalions worth and you make a lot of fair statements. I guess its like in football. I dont have indisputable evidence that Cobalion is S worthy. So ill just leave it for now
I think everything that I wanted to say about Coba has been said, so I'm not going to touch on it that much or get into specifics. Honestly, everyone's right, and it could go either way, (I'm leaning in favor of the bump up, personally, but I'd be OK with it staying, as well). It all depends ultimately on how we want to define S Rank. Cobalion's not like Gatr or Reuniclus or Hydreigon, in that there's not necessarily that "oh shit" moment whenever it hits the field. That is to say, compared to those mons, Cobalion's ability to threaten and overpower is very limited. So if we're judging S Rank just by the ability to immediately and directly threaten, then Coba shouldn't get the bump. However, it has so much more supporting potential than those mons, on top of its offensive potential, all potentially in one set, that it arguably makes up for it. Cobalion has the potential to be anything and everything, and be pretty damn good at it, but not necessarily to an overwhelming degree in any particular way. I think Hikari was right to point out that Coba's a jack of all trades, but a master of none. So, if we deem the ability to potentially threaten in myriad ways simultaneously to be S Rank worthy, then Coba should move up. And regardless of which definition you go by, there is, at the very least, no denying Cobalion's "universal goodness," as YABO puts it. It's literally always useful, although not exceedingly so in any one particular way. If we're going just by that, then it should deinifitely move up. It's all ultimately a matter of perspective.
Beedrill for A / A-
Uhhhh no? Beedrill is retardedly strong, pressures every playstyle, and almost guarantees momentum for offense. It more than makes up for its frailty since it loses nothing by just clicking U-Turn most of the time, meaning it barely has to worry about its counters if you've prepared for them properly. It deserves every bit of hype it's getting right now. Moving on.
That said, we've been throwing out nominations left and right this week so I thought I'd make my own:
(Note to self: Don't ever Google Mienshao again.) Mienshao for A-
Hate to say it, but Mienshao just isn't as good as it was several months ago. The meta's recent shift towards bulky offense has made it so Scarfers and dedicated revenge killers aren't as useful as they have been. That means Mienshao is a lot more pressed for a team slot than it used to be, especially considering the ubiquity of Fighting resists that nullify its main niche, as well as that of insanely fast mons like Sceptile, Beedrill, and Aero, which can act as revenge killers / cleaners and then some. All this taken together means that Mienshao's primary niche of Scarf HJK just isn't as threatening as it used to be, especially compared to all the other options you have to fill the exact same role. Whenever there's a Doublade or a Crobat or a Florges around, it pretty much always has to click either U-Turn or Knock just to keep momentum. And that sounds fine, until you realize you could just as easily put that on something that's not a Scarfer and have the same effect (looking at you, Beedrill), but not lose momentum and / or 50% of your health if you predict incorrectly. Pretty much the only time Mienshao gets to truly shine, i.e. spam HJK, is late-game, which even then is relatively hard to do since stuff like Doublade and Crobat and Florges tend to last all game. I'm putting so much emphasis on the Scarf set and not Life Orb since IMO that set is outdone by Cobalion and Infernape, which both have more Speed, versatility, and setup opportunities (MFW I'm implying SD Shao), as well as secondary STAB's that make up for their comparative lack of immediate power. Coba also has consistent defensive utility so it can aid in its own setup later on. Scarf HJK is still a strong niche for offense, but IMO it's not as consistently terrifying or applicable as, say, Blastoise or Chandelure.
Cobalion is an amazing pokemon in our current meta. Although I am very glad Cobalion's rise in popularity stopped the Snorlax spam, I do not believe it has the qualities to maintain a position as an S rank pokemon. I have been quietly lurking and reading all the discussion on this rise and have finally made up my mind. Hopefully I can bring some things up that contribute to the argument that, 'Cobalion is not S rank material.'
I am going to start out by bringing up some of Cobalion's great qualities and from there see what Cobalion fails to do and ultimately why Cobalion is not worth of S rank. Cobalion:
Has great defensive typing to resist primary stabs from other pokemon
Has great offensive typing to deal neutral or super effective damage to a lot of pokemon
Has great physical bulk and speed
Can set up Stealth Rocks
Can Taunt and T-wave set up sweepers
Can set up Sword Dance, Rock Polish, or Calm Mind and sweep
Is the best Dark type switch in the tier
Alright lets address Cobalion's typing. There is no coubt about it that Cobalion possesses a superb fighting and steel typing. This allows Cobalion to wall a significant amount of stab moves, but does it allow Cobalion to wall the pokemon completely? No, Cobalion is often prone to take super effective hits from the coverage that a lot of pokemon run. For example, Cobalion may seem like a great switch into Mega Beedrill, but an adamant Drill Run can 2Hko Cobalion after lefties (53 - 62.9%). I know Cobalion has the habit of running shuca berry effectively, but it, of course, only has one use. Beedrill can either take the iron head, which it can, and go for another or it simply U-turns out and starts the cycle over again with the consequence of rocks or damage on another pokemon. Thats with shuca, all other cobalion just die in that situation. This is not only with Beedrill but with other pokemon that are 'checked' by Cobalion. Mega Abomasnow has EQ and Focus Blast, Mega Aerodactyl has EQ, Mega Sceptile has Focus Blast, and Hydreigon has Fire Blast. Hikari already went through a lot of this and I don't want to repeat, but do keep in mind that a lot of pokemon that Cobalion 'checks' can die on switch to a prediction.
Offensively, Cobalion provides great typing being able to use a 120bp fighting stab and have a stab iron head for the fairy resists. Sure it has nice stabs but having an attack stats that is less than Nidoqueens is nothing to brag about. The argument that it has Close Combat does not change a thing. Once again, Hikari addressed this so I wont go in too deep but this low attack does mean Cobalion fails at being a really effective sweeper. Although you don't have to knock out a pokemon in one hit to sweep, Cobalion is prone to taking a hit while it SDs and then taking one from the pokemon it fails to knock out. This usually results in a failed sweep. Yes, iron head can flinch, you can win, but does a 30% chance to win sound good? There are also a few pokemon Cobalion can not break through right off the bat. Doublade does not even have to be preserved to stop Cobalion and it's popularity grows along side it. On a side note, CM Cobalion actually beats Doublade on the switch if you are running Hidden Power Dark which I find really cool.
Cobalion's support options are on point. T-wave is an underrated option that can ruin the opponent's Salamence or Feraligatr sweep. It's great because you can take a hit from those coverage moves and discipline your opponent with yellow magic. Cobalion's ability to be an effective offensive stealth rocker is what a lot of teams want and, to be honest, that is why we like Cobalion. It fits our teams so well being a knock off switch, a set up sweeper, and a stealth rocker. It gives us more freedom to build how we like. I believe this infatuation with Cobalion's splashabilty has blinded our evaluation. Cobalion is a fantastic pokemon, but it does not have the qualities of an S rank pokemon. Versatility is a building relief, not a S rank qualification. Cobalion should stay at A+ rank! This does not mean Cobalion is anything less than fantastic. Simply put, Cobalion is underwhelming at times.
I think the main thing that's colouring people's judgment of Cobalion, as others have pointed out, is that it is just so splashable. It's definitely not as versatile as some are saying in terms of the sets it can run because when you see Cobalion you can be pretty sure of what you're going to get, unlike say Salamence or Hydreigon, and the counters to its main sets are pretty much the same. But the part of Cobalion that is impressive is just how easily it fits on teams due to its particular attributes:
Ability to be a solid win condition or Stealth Rocker.
Brilliant typing and great Defense which makes it a very nice Dragon resist and Knock Off absorber.
High Speed that in combination with its typing allows it to naturally check some really important threats like Hydreigon, Mega Sharpedo, Snorlax, Salamence, Mega Aerodactyl, Mamoswine, Lucario, Krookodile, Mega Abomasnow, even Gatr in a pinch. And this is just looking at the top three ranks in VR.
Both balanced and offensive teams absolutely need all of these attributes, and this is where Cobalion's greatest success lies - its role compression. Okay so it cannot recklessly switch into some of these threats for fear of coverage moves like Fire Blast and Earthquake, but the fact that it can check all of these Pokemon reliably once it is in makes teambuilding a hell of a lot easier. You can easily slap Cobalion on an offensive team and say "OK, that's SD Lucario and Hydrei taken care of" and you'd be quite right. These Pokemon are never going to achieve a sweep while Cobalion is still on the field. It's a great failsafe and it doesn't need even need sky-high offenses to do this because the great coverage offered by its STABs remedies this.
All this, however, isn't what makes an S rank Pokemon. It supports teams well enough but S rank Pokemon, from the definition, either do one role extremely well or various roles effectively. Like Hikari put it, jack of all trades but master of none describes Coba aptly. It's a decent support Pokemon, but it's not amazing. If you consider its sweeping ability, it has mediocre power and even after a Swords Dance it loses out on some key OHKOs. Magnet Rise remedies this to an extent as it renders a number of its checks like Gligar and Nidoqueen setup bait, but there's still a sizable number of Pokemon that Cobalion is never going to get past like Doublade, Slowking, Reuni, Jellicent, Swampert, and Tentacruel. Crippling weaknesses to Fire, Fighting, and Ground that don't make it very difficult to revenge kill it doesn't help either.
Coba simply lacks the sheer power that several other S ranked Pokemon have (Salamence, Gatr, Hydrei), and it doesn't have the ability to be a consistently threatening win condition like Suicune and Reuni. It is for sure an excellent Pokemon which is why it is A+ in the first place, but for me it just doesn't have the attributes of an S rank Pokemon. Keep it in A+.
Hugely support Mega Aero moving back to S. Blinding fast Speed means it naturally checks almost every single offensive threat and demolishes offense, and that Attack stat is high enough to cause some real distress to more defensive teams after a Hone Claws boost. Crunch is an excellent recent popular choice that lets it get past some of its checks like Slowking, Doublade, and Cress, while Pursuit means that your team doesn't have to worry about the antics of Mega Bee, Hoopa, and Chandelure. Its typing is also pretty underrated defensively, offering teams a secondary Fire resist and a cool Flying resist.
Definitely don't think Gatr should move down. People have said that it's not a very splashable Pokemon and I agree as it doesn't offer the same defensive utility as other Waters, but it's still an extremely dangerous sweeper with two setup moves that have two very different sets of checks. Until you find out what set it is it's very dangerous to try switching around because of its massive power, and you could easily find yourself down a Pokemon if you mispredict. Tangrowth is the only thing that counters it outright. Other Grass-types are destroyed by DD Ice Punch and I don't think Roar RestTalk Suicune can be called a reliable counter with +2 Crunch doing a solid 45ish while the most Cune can do is phaze it out for it to come back in later or fish for a burn. If Cune is sleeping then you need to hope for a roll in your favour too. DD is easier to check for fat teams but it's absolute hell to face for bulky or pure offense, while fat teams are very hard pressed to deal with SD. It's hands down the most dangerous physical sweeper in the tier and I definitely don't support dropping it. Keep Gatr in S.
I support cobalion staying in a+it's lacks natural power and cannot take special hits and its not s rank material imo
(Tentacruel from b+ to b) while it has a good movepool it has a hard time being a wall its physical defense makes earthquake its biggest enemy and with the rise of psychic types and espeon is not as medicore as it was a few months ago and to top it all it can't make much use of its high speed do to its investments being put to defenses its not terrible but I see it on the same level as pangoro and mega absol
I just don't understand how a pokemon that fits on nearly every team is considered not on the top rank of viability. Shouldn't that be one of the primary metrics to how we evaluate viability? If you look at the definition of viable in a dictionary, you find practicable and workable alongside synonyms such as usable, feasible, and adaptable. It's far easier to make a good team with Cobalion than to make a good team with Feraligatr. If you need an example why then just look at usage statistics where over the past few months, Cobalion has risen from #13 to #4. Meanwhile, Feraligatr has dropped from #6 to #17. I know that usage doesn't necessarily equate to viability but there is certainly a strong correlation when you look at something like 1760 stats or else we wouldn't consistently see Hydreigon and Salamence on almost 50% of teams. Why doesn't this get reflected in the viability rankings? Under most circumstances, Cobalion is a more viable choice than Feraligatr for a whole myriad of reasons. Among them is the much superior defensive utility that it possesses while maintaining a workable offensive presence. While Cobalion itself has downsides (honestly they're all pretty minor), there is hardly ever a downside when adding Cobalion to a team due to its absolutely impeccable typing for the tier and ability to consistently perform its job in every matchup.
I swear this thing is good. It is a super fat piece of shit in the same mold as Swampert, that exists to set up Stealth Rock, spread status, and not die. Stunfisk has some annoying weaknesses to Ground, Water, Grass, and Ice but it makes up for this with some great resistances and ability. Static is the main draw as every physical pokemon that touches this thing has a 30% chance of being paralyzed- that's HUGE. OK- it is relying on luck, but you can say the thing about scald, and that doesn't even auto-burn on physical contact. Due to its typing, Stunfisk can switch into so many pokemon reliably- Heliolisk, Crobat, Infernape, Cobalion, Doublade, Honchkrow, etc..but what makes this different from other fat blanket-check pokemon is Static makes every move your opponent hits you with a massive gamble, constantly giving you the mental advantage.
What's more, it can reliably get up rocks in most games because it doesn't fear the hazard removers. Crobat just flat-out loses, Mence is repeatedly pressured with Discharge para, Mandibuzz just loses lol, Forretress just loses.
Here's the set you should be running:
Ebola (Stunfisk) @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave/Toxic
- Earth Power
- Discharge
Some Calcs:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 138-164 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
228 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 173-204 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 114-135 (27 - 31.9%) -- 40.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 338-400 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'll make a more detailed post later with a lot of replays. Won 4 matches in a room tour with this, but forgot to save replays unfortunately :/
When you are a team captain for recess basketball, you pick the star players first. After that, you pick the player that works with them the best. This player is generally not the best player but one that works well with others.
Bananas are great sources of potassium, easy to maintain and access, and come with a protective layer, but does that make them the best fruit? No! The best fruit is determined by how good it tastes.
A+ is a great rank for a pokemon such as Cobalion. I think most of you are seeing this as 'Cobalion is a good pokemon' vs 'Cobalion is a bad pokemon.' This is not the case. Also if we are basing this rise off of splashability, then Entei, Mamoswine, and Empoleon should move up as well. If we are basing it off of versatility then why isn't Tangrowth, Abomasnow, and Meloetta moving up as well? Lets look at S rank qualification S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are almost flawless in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and almost always brings a high reward. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are more than made up for by numerous positive traits.
Now if you look at this is may seem fine at first but there is a difference in qualification between S rank and A rank that has been left out probably due to suggestiveness.
A rank: These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
Support. I believe what S rank would have said was, 'these pokemon need next to no support to be effective in the UnderUsed tier.' This describes every pokemon currently in the S rank tier. That includes Suicune with its rest talk roar set which is highly effective. Hydregion drops dracos, darkpulses, flashcannons and fireblasts fairys, and superpowers umbreon and empoleon. The rest are the same... and Cobalion does not fit this. A true example of how effective a pokemon can be without support is the 1v1 scenario. In a 1v1 scenario you rely on no support from your team mates. As Hikari demonstrated, Cobalion is not too good at 1v1s, therefore, its a pokemon that needs some support.
I'm also completely for MAero moving back to S. It has just so many options to make itself useful and is almost guaranteed to get a kill or 2 per game. It's probably the most independent mon in the tier, having the highest speed, a good ability for some of its moves, a great movepool, and just raw power. I was pretty surprised when this thing dropped to begin with, being basically the definition of an S rank mon.
Agreeing with Coba and Gatr staying where they are, for the same reasons stated above.
I would have added this in my initial nom-post but I did not realize this until now. Regular Swampert ----> A rank. Not exactly sure why Swampert is A- right now. It most likely has to do with Mega Swampert hype making it seem like regular Swampert is irrelevant although they are two different sets. Swampert is nothing but viable in UU and I do not think the meta has exactly shifted in Swampert's benefit to be worthy of a raise but it shouldn't have been A- in the first place.
Swampert is extremely viable in UU. It serves as a Volt Switch Immunity, Fire Resistence, is the most reliable Stealth Rocker in the tier, it checks a numerous amount of pokemon due to its natural bulk and only having one resistance, and it has access to Roar which lets it not be set up bait. Swampert is very, very splashable and there is really no downside to having it on your team(unless you have another Stealth Rocker already on your team ofc). There is nothing unviable about Swampert since its one quad resistance is so easy to cover one wouldn't even have to try. Swampert obviously cannot wall the entire tier but it checks the mons its suppose to and it does it very well and very consistently.
TL;DR
Swampert is the most reliable stealth rock setter combined with an amazing typing that checks a lot of the physical attackers in the tier. There is no downside to running a swampert and there is nothing unviable about the pokemon at all. It does its support role amazingly.
I think it's fair to put Regular Pert in A. While it does suffer from a sort of reverse opportunity cost for not being the beast that is its Mega, it has just as much utility as Empoleon. I really see no reason why the two aren't put at the same level. It makes up for its lack of Defog with an arguably more helpful typing which, while having fewer overall resists, gives you a Fire resist (y'know, as your bulky Water type should -- not being a Fire resist is probably the biggest drawback for Empoleon) and an Electric immunity, which is huge given the popularity of VolTurn. Being your bulky Water type, VolTurn check, hazard setter, and phazer simultaneously is some stellar role compression. All these things taken together, IMO, should put Pert on the same level of viability as Empoleon.
