Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[yohoE]

while the above is true, and i do agree that ferrothorn should rise, it's also bait for 2 of the biggest threats in oras, pdon and ho-oh--which makes team-building a tad bit tougher.

 

[Hack]

Ferro is a shit SR user, it's a good spiker tho.

If has a distinct niche in being able to check most Kyogre variants really well these days, and often walks in easily on Latis to boot. It's easily A- for me although its SPL win-rate might say differently.

 

[QueenOfHax]

SPL is a really small sample size and shouldn't be used as basis for viability ranking.
Also, if you're a good spiker you're automatically an even better SR user, so I don't get why Ferrothorn shouldn't run it.

 

[Freeroamer]

SPL is a really small sample size and shouldn't be used as basis for viability ranking.
Also, if you're a good spiker you're automatically an even better SR user, so I don't get why Ferrothorn shouldn't run it.

I disagree with both points, first of which about SPL, while yeah it shouldn't be the only determining factor, we've seen enough games between the players at the very top of the metagame to get an insight into what the current metagame looks like, and the viability rankings should reflect that.

On the second, the limited distribution of Spikes compared to Stealth Rock is part of what makes Ferro a good spiker, off the top of my head the only viable Spikes users I can think of in Ubers are Deoxys, Greninja, Klefki, Skarmory and Ferrothorn. The first two are generally seen as suicide leads, and thus not suited to the defensive teams Ferro is found on. Klefki is more suited to balance teams which require a utility check to dangerous offensive threats, and can make some use of the Spikes it lays down when it finds a free turn. In reality, the only Spikes user it's competing with on defensive teams is Skarmory and it has several distinct niches such as being able to beat pretty much every viable defogger in the tier without having to run a status move, beaing able to beat one of the two Magic Bounce users and in general it provides more defensive utility than Skarm i've found. Why would you use rocks on this when so many other things can use rocks and you can add to hazard pressure with spikes?

 

[PISTOLERO]

Changes

Mewtwo A+ to A
Mega Mewtwo Y A+ to A
Deoxys-Attack A- to B+
Deoxys-Speed A- to B+
Arceus-Water B to B+
Ferrothorn B to B+
Clefable B to B+
Skarmory B- to B
Heatran C+ to C, on the way to being removed
Terrakion C- to Unranked
Victini C- to Unranked
Bronzong C+ to C, on the way to being removed

Should:

Arceus-Rock move down to B+ ?
Ferrothorn move up to A- ?

 

[Hack]

SPL is a really small sample size and shouldn't be used as basis for viability ranking.
Also, if you're a good spiker you're automatically an even better SR user, so I don't get why Ferrothorn shouldn't run it.

Can you please think about the awkward generalization you made and get back, because it's really too much to explain how wrong that logic is. It is actually a more interesting matter (what makes a good SR user/spikes user etc) so I'm willing to explain it if you just could phase out that notion...

PS. incase you didn't understand my post, I didn't base my argument for Ferrothorn's ranking on SPL stats (although I certainly could if I wanted to).

To make this post less useless I'd like to bring up some non uber mons that could be removed from the list:

Bronzong- Personally I already QC rejected this, you can find reasoning on it's page in CC forums.

Heatran- What do you guys think? I personally find 0 reason using this as it occupies very little defensive niche (loses to GeoXern even more frequently now, Pdon/Pogre comes in almost for free etc). Some discussion of just dropping this from the list is probably suitable at the very least.

Hippo- Can't wall much notable stuff these days. Don't see why this deserves to be on the last.

Mega Metagross- Honestly it might be pretty ill timed to remove if it's getting the boot from OU. Mega Metagross holds extremely high opportunity cost, is outclassed in many roles (think pursuit and xern checking mostly) and has several very prevalent mons that wall it, some even do regardless of what set you run. I saw Fireburn use it in SPL but I wasn't too impressed with why it was on the team in the first place. Was it because it was less shit vs Ho-oh than other niche steels?

Gothitelle- Hello? Do you want to throw away a precious team slot on a mon that not only is bad vs any offensive team, but also gets set up on by virtually any sweeper and forces your team to carry more solid checks to stuff? I am not interested in hearing what it can do, of course it would trap the occasional support Arceus like always. The problem is, it's not worth it because it will inherently shit up your team's match up vs anything else. It's a gimick at best now and at worst it's an excuse for not wanting to play or build properly.

Terrakion- This thing is exactly a good scarfer in my eyes, and it was never a good SR user. It is limited to revenge killing Arceus Normal/Dark and that's not much of use when it is very easy to exploit.

Victini- Again this is the kinda mon I just don't see anyone running on a serious team. It also gained a pretty solid universal answer in Primal Groudon, which at the same time pumped up the opportunity cost for using regular Groudon's sun. I did try this but eh, I think this mon is too limited vs any offensive team regardless of what you do.

Edit: got sniped

 

[Nayrz]

Changes

Mewtwo A+ to A
Mega Mewtwo Y A+ to A
Deoxys-Attack A- to B+
Deoxys-Speed A- to B+
Arceus-Water B to B+
Ferrothorn B to B+
Clefable B to B+
Skarmory B- to B
Heatran C+ to C, on the way to being removed
Terrakion C- to Unranked
Victini C- to Unranked
Bronzong C+ to C, on the way to being removed

Should:

Arceus-Rock move down to B+ ?
Ferrothorn move up to A- ?

ctrl + f "gengar" (0 results)
any reasons for this? it seems the idea of gengar moving down is accepted judging from the support and no argument about my earlier post.

 

[PISTOLERO]

ctrl + f "gengar" (0 results)
any reasons for this? it seems the idea of gengar moving down is accepted judging from the support and no argument about my earlier post.

Sorry Nayrz, I must have missed it

S- Rank created

Mega Gengar and Ho-Oh moved to S- rank

This seemed to have a fair amount of support before. Some people also wanted Latias and Latios to move to S, so this could work for that as well.​

 

[Fireburn]

Mega Metagross- Honestly it might be pretty ill timed to remove if it's getting the boot from OU. Mega Metagross holds extremely high opportunity cost, is outclassed in many roles (think pursuit and xern checking mostly) and has several very prevalent mons that wall it, some even do regardless of what set you run. I saw Fireburn use it in SPL but I wasn't too impressed with why it was on the team in the first place. Was it because it was less shit vs Ho-oh than other niche steels?

It's a good check to some notable things (Xerneas, Lati, Mega Diancie, non DD Ray) and isn't bait for PDon/Ho-Oh thanks to Earthquake/Rock Slide. I was also running a Scarf Xerneas on that team so I felt Mega Metagross would be useful to help soften up Fire-types for potential late-game cleaning by deer. I do agree that the opportunity cost is large and things like Klefki and Mega Scizor serve as better Xerneas checks, but if you need a Xern check that doesn't give easy switch-ins to Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh it's pretty good. C+ rank fits it fine imo

I support removing Heatran (it's too much of a liability for what it can do) and Gothitelle (it just sucks in ORAS).

I also don't agree with putting Lati@s in S - between Arceus-Dark/Ghost, Yveltal, Xerneas, Tyranitar, and the majority of bulky Steels in the tier (Keys/Scizor/Ferrothorn/Aegislash/MMeta) most teams do have a way to beat them and their Pursuit weakness is very annoying. You can run HP Fire to be bait for fewer Steels but then you have to give up one of Defog, Roost or HW/Memento which decreases their general utility.

 

[Prinz]

I have seen we should discuss about Arceus Rock and Ferrothorn so yeh my thoughts on them are:

About Arceus Rock I think it should drop, it completely sucks as a Defog user as it loses to PDon that is the #1 SR setter, it also loses p badly against Kyogre and doesn't even stop Mence that well because +1 EQ does a ton. Guess having an Arceus form being able to run CM without using bad options like Ancient Power to not being murdered by Ho-Oh is cool and stuff but tbh I guess it just got worse in ORAS and therefore deserves to drop to B+ rank

Regarding Ferrothorn instead, I don't think it's that bad as it's a good spiker and can annoy stuff with Leech Seed but being setup fodder against PDon is quite bad tbh, it also loses to Geo Xern now that every xern runs Focus Blast and can't really check Kyogre very well due to Scald (you need to use it with an Heal Bell / Aroma user). It's also cool at checking Lati Twins tho (HP Fire is rare) and as I said before it's incredibily annoying with Leech Seed but I'm not that sure it deserves A- rank (if SPL usages count anything guess only Hack used it, even if with good results).

 

[Minority]

About Arceus Rock I think it should drop, it completely sucks as a Defog user as it loses to PDon that is the #1 SR setter, it also loses p badly against Kyogre and doesn't even stop Mence that well because +1 EQ does a ton. Guess having an Arceus form being able to run CM without using bad options like Ancient Power to not being murdered by Ho-Oh is cool and stuff but tbh I guess it just got worse in ORAS and therefore deserves to drop to B+ rank

Arceus-Rock wins against P Don over time as Judgment can wear it down. It loses to Kyogre, but Kyogre is far less common this generation with better checks to it around (many Arceus loose to Kyogre anyways). It does stop Mence, in fact Arceus-Rock is just about the best Mega Salamence check around (Lugia auto loses if SR is up, Klefki must be sacked, Arceus-Fairy takes more from STAB Aerialte, ttar just dies, etc.). Don't really see why it should drop, especially considering far less viable stuff like Groudon, Blaziken, Landorus-T is sitting in B+.

 

[Prinz]

Fine in A- then, didnt remember all these mons were B+. It does lose to Groudon tho, Judgement wears it down but Arceus Rock has an hard time to defog hazards away if the SR setter is PDon anyways.

 

[ChipButty]

Just a minor point, but is there a reason for the absence of Mega Altaria on the rankings?

 

[Nayrz]

it was rejected for an analysis. mons usually need to be accepted for an analysis in the c&c forum by qc members before they can be placed on these rankings (some are still here because of xy and that may change)

 

[ChipButty]

Ah ok, thanks for that Nayrz.

 

[Asmodean]

How about moving Arceus-Ground a little up the rankings?

It checks loads of things and can run special or SD sets very comfortably. Ground is also an amazing offensive type in this meta. Thoughts?

 

[Prinz]

I don't rly like CM variants tbh because being walled 100% by Ho-Oh is p bad (unless you use Ancient Power but thats it), SD variants are def better but they can't switch safety on PDons cus Lava Plume would just destroy Arceus.

It's true however that it's a cool PDon revenge-killer and stuff and it can be A rank (also why Dialga is still A rank? idk I just feel it got a bit worse in ORAS and A- rank would be better for it)

 

[Spyro Chris]

Arceus-Ground CM/Defog are definitely not so viable. The SD set is clearly the best one. I believe it's fine where it is, at the moment. I agree about Dialga, though. It needs to drop to A-.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Dialga is good because it's a soft check to quite a lot of things. With a status move it can check arceus ghost as well as annoy other formed with roar. On hyper offence its very nice to have a stealth rocker that isn't primal groudon because you can run something like rock polish or twave+sd. Specially bulky sets switch in on latios' draco, and slightly less bulky variants deal with latias. It has great offensive coverage, dragon resist are commonly things that wall the latis (scizor, klefki, ferrothorn etc) and they die to fire blast. More offensive spreads actually hit really hard because of this, it only really has to worry about getting walled by things like defensive kyogre. Its a decent check to offensive kyogre as well jic you arent running a lati and it's important to keep your groudon at high health! A team that showcases dialga well is for example evuelf's week 3 (or 4? idr) SPL team if you are looking for a team with it. Nevertheless, I also support it in A- (but not any lower). Some stuff should also move up, or we could get rid of A mid all together n_m

 

[Kyuzeth]

Since A is getting a bit barren, here's another nomination.

Rayquaza (A-) -> A | I believe this has been brought up earlier, but it was buried under discussion for other Pokémon. Anyway, I feel like Rayquaza should seriously move up to A. ORAS has given it a fantastic new signature move in Dragon Ascent, a brutally strong STAB with 100 accuracy, that it can often run over Dragon-type STABs. Not only that, but Air Lock now has the niche of ignoring the effects of Desolate Land and Primordial Sea, meaning Rayquaza will take less damage from Primal Groudon's Fire-type STABs and Primal Kyogre's Water-type STABs. Its 150/150 offensive stats are fantastic as ever and it can put that Attack to fantastic use in the revived Dual Dragon core, now with Mega Salamence. Rayquaza is excellent at wallbreaking the threats that need to go for Mega Salamence to pull off a clean sweep; due to its raw power, this offensive core is nigh impossible to wall, but does come at the cost of defensive synergy.
What's remained bad for Rayquaza, however, are its middling 95 Speed stats (outpaces base 90s, but not that great), its average 105/90/90 defenses and Xerneas still being fucking everywhere (though the deer does NOT want to switch in on Dragon Ascent).
Generally, though, things are looking up for Rayquaza, which is why it should ascend to A.

 

[Laurel]

Whys Arceus-E C rank same with Arceus-I, isnt E better lol

 

[Worthlessnoob]

Whys Arceus-E C rank same with Arceus-I, isnt E better lol

It's too easily checked by PDon, Gira-O and Dialga. On top of that, I don't think I've seen a legitimate team without PDon yet (not that they don't exist), so Arc Electric is seeming pretty bad right now.

 

[Fireburn]

Bronzong C+ -> Removed
Rejected for analysis.

Yar.

Mega Blaze B+ -> C+
With Mega cost becoming increasingly high especially for offensive Pokemon it is hard to justify using Mega Blaziken in ORAS.

I don't think opportunity cost alone is a good argument here since Blaziken is still quite good, it's obviously not as good with Latis and Mence around but it has the coverage to deal with checks (Latis are 2HKOed by STABs if they try to switch in, Ho-Oh is beaten if SR is up or you have Stone Edge, Mence is beaten by Stone Edge/HP Ice). It also blows through Mence checks like Skarm/Dialga/Rock-types so its not entirely inferior to the lizard. It can also act as a pseudo-Scarf with Speed Boost to check stuff like Darkrai or Mewtwo which Mence can't do. B+ is a good place for it, it's strong and has decent utility but suffers from notable opportunity cost i.e. the description of B rank.

Groudon B+ -> C
With Primal Groudon very common and Primal Kyogre common as well the sun support is generally useless. In almost all roles it is outclassed by P Don due to sheer role compression.

Lack of Ground weakness makes it a far better check to Primal Groudon, EKiller, and Mega Salamence than PDon which merits at least B- imo.

Wobbuffet B -> C+
Honestly I haven't even tried to integrate this thing onto a team, but I never see it on the ladder or in tours so that must say something. Does anyone actually use this thing with choice mons even less common?

Sweep used it quite recently in an SPL game so I would withhold judgment on it for now.

Heatran C+ -> C-
I've only used it for a single team and it's not very good. It's very hard to justify use at all since it can't even check Xern now that most are running Focus Blast and you can't really afford to run Chople. You can try to run Air Balloon to mess with the likes of Ho-Oh, Mence, and P Don, but again you miss out on valuable Leftovers recovery.

I'd probably just remove it but C- seems like a fair spot.

Arceus-Ice / Dragon / Fire / Flying / Psychic C -> C-
Electric and Steel are pretty poor but not as bad as these. Even though Electric and Steel are bait to several powerful threats they can still check others.

Iceceus is good at C-rank, wouldn't mind moving the rest down to C-

Mega Lucario C -> D
It wastes a Mega and in general Scizor or even Metagross is a superior choice. I don't really consider this thing viable, especially after its only niche was eliminated.

Again I don't think Mega Lucario is bad enough to be among the likes of Arceus-Bug and Deoxys-N (though I agree its mediocre). It's not directly outclassed by Scizor (not bait for PDon or Ho-Oh) or Metagross (can check Yveltal somewhat and outspeed Lati, also hits harder since Adaptability > Tough Claws) so putting it in D on the basis of it being 100% outclassed wouldn't quite be accurate.

aside: D-Rank should be saved only for things like Bugceus/Deo-N that are Uber in name only and have literally no niche.

 

[dice]

Minority Suspect i actually rly like wobbuffet, albeit it's rather niche. its only real defensive niche is checking mewtwo to an extent, but giving opportunities to the setup sweepers like arceus, xerneas, etc. is pretty cool. sweep used my wobb team against mm2 in spl and it kinda demonstrated how wobb could make a mon set up fodder (waterceus) and open up holes pretty well altho u could argue kyogre did that earlier in the bat as well. its restraint is having to use it on heavy heavy offense just because wobbuffet can't function elsewhere effectively. if you don't run it alongside several set up sweepers, you're just wasting its potential imo. the addition of custap has made it much more potent as a last second encore or feigned destiny bond is pretty nifty.

e: log

 

[Owen Xekrain]

Darkrai A+ -> S-

and


Lugia A-> A+

Darkrai reasoning:

A Dark Void/Nasty Plot sweeper set with a sash can set up on practically anyone, and the only pokemon who really wall it are Klefki and Ho-Oh. Xern is a check, but not a true counter to this set.

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Ability: Bad Dreams
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot

+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. +2 104 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 226-266 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 322-381 (86.3 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (all calcs done w/ full health) (almost guaranteed OHKO with one turn of Bad Dreams, or with any hazards)
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence: 358-423 (108.1 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Another High threat in the tier, MM gets ANNIHILATED by Darkrai
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 253-298 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 614-726 (234.3 - 277%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Lugia: A SubMind set can make Lugia hold up to any pokemon in terms of pure walling, also can sit there and toxic teams to death with its stalling capabilities

Lugia@Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpD
Bold Nature
-Calm Mind
-Substitute
-Ice Beam
-Toxic





+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 156-185 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 92-109 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 140-165 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 19.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 113-133 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- 41.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 105-125 (25.2 - 30%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 141-166 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- 28.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery