Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Of Moose & Men]

I don't know why Garchomp is brought up for discussion when the viability council said it won't move just 3 weeks ago. The lack of recovery is much bigger than some of you make it out to be, because you can't continually keep switching in against Scizor, Lopunny, Talonflame, Bisharp etc. and this is a really big argument not in favor of Garchomp because the lack of recovery can easily be taken advantage of because 1. uninvested chomp lacks power so there are quiet a few pokemon that can switch in and force it out 2. chomp can easily be overwhelmed by stuff like bish+talonflame and 3. it wears itself down quicklier by continually switching in against pokemon like Scizor and Talonflame because they are able to roost off the chip damage from rocky+roughskin.
Though the offensive sets are kinda underrated, those sets don't even make chomp A+ worthy; it doesn't provide the defensive utility of tankchomp and only based off defensive sets Garchomp is not a S rank threat.

Except 3 weeks ago the qualifications for S rank were a lot more strict. Also, contrary to what you're saying, a lack of recovery is also not nearly as big of a hindrance as you make it. I mean, yea, it'd prefer recovery, but it's not holding it back in any way. I mean, you make it seem like coming in on things like tflame, mlop, megagross, Mega zor, etc. Isn't one of its main jobs. It's almost exclusively in existence right now to punish physical attackers, so saying those things wear it down as a downside shows you're completely ignoring what comes with that. Again, I can understand why it wouldn't move up, however, is it not one of the most, if not THE most, viable Pokemon in OU? It's capable of pulling off so many roles, one of which is absolutely amazing at what it does, set rocks and punish physical Mons. No other Pokemon does that, and what it does is not only unique, but extremely appreciated. We can sit here and say "but it's missing X", but if you want to grasp at straws no Pokemon should be S.

EDIT:Ah, you're right, my apologies to the overlords. Let us not forsaken them.

 

[DropAcidSeeArceus]

I'd like to address not the nomination of Garchomp -> S but the ability to discuss it. I feel like this is genuinely a good topic because while it isn't the end all be all master of one set, it is without a doubt one of the most viable amd centralizing mons in the tier.

In an offensive meta centralized around volt-turn allowing slow yet powerful attackers/potentaial sweepers to come in for free, Garchomp immediately provides u-turn and volt switch punishment. If the volt switcher isn't running hp ice you have an incredibly efficient stop to volt turn that pairs incredibly well with clerics, specifically the lord known as Clefable which can provide excellent wish support.

Hazards are a serious focus in the meta with Stealth Rocks (potentially now more than ever) being the best move in the singles format (at least in my opinion) Tankchomps ability to get up rocks and shuffle the opponents team is incredible, especially with chomps diverse moveset.

Offensive Garchomp sets are truly outclassed by tankchomp in this meta, but the surprise factor alone warrants talk, especially with all other chomp variants being undeniably useful regardless of their effectiveness compared to one another.

All of this being said, I'd like to nominate the open discussion of Garchomp -> S and not the movement itself, because I believe no mon is more deserving of the discussion than Garchomp. If Lando-T hit S rank (albeit for not that long) we should at least have the right to discuss the placement of everyone's favorite (and only) land shark.

Thank you for hearing me out, and please be merciful Lord AM.

 

[AM]

Landot hit S rank due to a loooot of hype, more than it ever actually deserved, in a similar case to hoopa-u. So I think throwing that comparison out isnt actually fantastic and continuing discussion thats already been decided on by team initially seems kind of pointless to talk about when it really isnt going anywhere at this point in time, when there is clearly more or less off place stuff in need of moving as well.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

when there is clearly more or less off place stuff in need of moving as well.

See, now this I can get behind. There are several Pokemon that are in spots that just aren't fitting (WOBBUFFET). So, I can see why the discussion can be deflected for this. I can't even be upset about it. I can't be for it being deflected because some people don't agree with it therefore we must drop it.

With that said, about my numerous Wobbuffet nominations. . . Lol, it's been ignored lately, and it's rather agonizing to read all these petty back-and-forths about Pokemon that are just fine where they are, but the taker of lives gets no love outside of mine. ;~; Lol, went completely ignored (neither raised nor was shown to be denied to raise) in the last rerank.
In all seriousness, Wobbuffet does not belong in C+, at all, B- I even feel is a bit low, but I understand how progression works. Hopefully this time some people will actually discuss it instead of liking my post and moving on. ._.

I'm hoping I don't have to quote myself yet again to get my point across. But in case I do:

Hide

Wobbuffet C+ -> B- minimum

I honestly have no clue how this thing is C+. I feel as though people undersell it far too often, and that may be a reason for it's low ranking. I've gone over this in other threads, and I've expressed my feelings towards trappers in multiple different areas. Trappers are some of the best support Pokemon in the game. Every single one is ran on a team exclusively to beat out specific key threats, Wobbuffet is no different. With everyone saying Offense is taking off all over again, I honestly have no idea how the ever living hell this thing is C+. Wobbuffet is an absolute terror to offense, getting at least a guaranteed Kill, and in the right hands multiple. With that said, since it is a support Pokemon, it takes out the biggest threat on any offensive team, kills it, encores it, or even tickles it, and leaves way for X mon to set up and sweep or pursuit it, either way, Wobbuffet does its job, and does it well. Wobbuffet just has the absolute best moves it could possibly ask for, bar maybe a few things, like recovery, but other than that, it is absolutely perfect for taking out Pokemon that otherwise really threaten your team. With offense on the rise, I just cannot possibly see Wobbuffet in C+, and therefore, should move to B- at minimum.

EDIT: This is a hard case to argue since you can't really compare it to other Pokemon in either C+ or B- but if you honestly don't believe Wobbuffet fits in a rank with Mandibuzz, Sylveon and Chesnaught, then I've got to question a few things. Honestly, I feel it should be higher than B-, but I don't want to over shoot it too soon.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

If I may comment on an unrelated topic, I might be the only person here to believe that Excadrill should be dropped to A.

I know what you're thinking right now. "Excadrill is a Rapid Spinner and a sweeper in one. It is leagues above Starmie and cannot easily be stopped." Hold the phone a moment because I have a list of reasons why Excadrill is a touch...bad. He's still a badass and a monster but not A+ material to me.

1. Rapid Spin will almost always compromise a sweeper set running Life Orb...and to a lesser extent, even the Air Balloon variant. When using Excadrill as a sweeper, coverage is important (having a pseudo EdgeQuake is funny and REALLY good) and losing either the coverage move or your boosting move leaves you open. Without Rock Slide, Talonflame and Charizard Y laugh at this thing, even in Sandstorm. Without Swords Dance, Skarmory and TankChomp wall this thing to no end. Not to mention that with Life Orb, Rapid Spinning means taking 10% off your health, leaving you even more open.

2. Excadrill's speed is so sad. To even be a decent sweeper, you either need to cover that with Scoliopede (remember that Baton Pass exists) or have a Tyranitar on your team. Either way, it compromises your team more than helping it, adding to the weaknesses more than the resists. Scoliopede may add a Fight Resist, but it adds another Fire Weakness. Tyranitar may give a Fire Resist, but it adds a Water, Ground, and Fight Weakness, once again limiting teambuilding to just supporting those two Pokemon. Requiring support is something every Pokemon needs, yes, but sounds like so much work just to build a sweep to clean late-game. It could be for nothing if you lose it or your direct Speed Support. Finally, if your plan is to Sand Rush through a team, you better have an answer to Rotom-W packed and ready or you're going down quick.

3. Excadrill's bulk sucks. HP is nice but everything else is so low. It's worse when you realize that the best way to run Rapid Spin is a bulky set, which loses to Offense in a heartbeat. Earthquake, Flare Blitz, Scald, Close Combat/Mach Punch are common in this meta (not to much Close Combat anymore, but still a threat). Excadrill loses to Special Attackers like Zard-Y, Keldeo, Fire-Coverage Altaria, etc., while still losing to Physical Attackers that can exploit the weaknesses like Azumarill and Landorus-T. TankChomp laughs at this Rapid Spinner because it beats it 1v1. Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Earthquake keep this one away (thankfully, Earthquake makes no contact). On the other hand, Starmie can opt for Ice Beam and defeat the best Stealth Rocker in the tier. Excadrill can beat Heatran easier, but doesn't even like switching into it. Starmie also has Recover to keep it alive longer, while Excadrill cannot heal itself.

I cannot deny the good, though. Immunity to Toxic AND Thunder Wave means, outside of burn and sleep, status is not a worry. Offensively, Excadrill is a powerhouse thanks to its coverage. Resists to Normal, Electric, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Dragon, Steel, and Fairy are definite pluses, allowing some forms of switch-ins against particular Pokemon, but it is destroyed by other coverage moves. If you're covered for Scizor, you're typically covered for Excadrill (unless you're Magnezone). Excadrill is best switched in on Diancie, Gardevoir, and Klefki. That's about it. Everything else poses too much a threat. Sandstorm is mandatory for a sweep, but remember that a team based around it has to be tight packed and ready for anything...and for me, that's too much support for a Pokemon in A+

Am I missing anything here? Am I too harsh on this thing? I love Excadrill but I think it should be either A or A-. Then again, I'm known to be part of an opinion minority.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I think you're using Excadrill a bit wrong, the sets I've used are LO SD and Air Balloon/LO Rapid spin, and you really shouldn't depend on it as your hazard removal, it's not reliable as it lacks recovery and speed outside of sand. Which brings me to the second point, you're not really supposed to be using Excadrill outside of Sand, most offensive teams fear Excadrill immensely as very little wants to switch in, it's usually just Landorus-Therian, which can't reliably counter Excadrill as its in trouble if its already taken an Iron head. Excadrills power comes from how immensely threatening it is with sand up, effectively solving its Speed issue.

And you're not really mentioning it's best parts, while a toxic and t-wave immunity is great its resistances doesn't really matter as between LO and switching into even resisted hits you're not going to be living very long... Now what is great for Excadrill is its speed and power, it's ability to run adamant pretty much effortlessly and punching huge holes in offensive teams, how long has it been since you saw an Excadrill in team preview when using offence and thought for yourself "Pfff, whatever"?

 

[procrastinat]

If I may comment on an unrelated topic, I might be the only person here to believe that Excadrill should be dropped to A.

I know what you're thinking right now. "Excadrill is a Rapid Spinner and a sweeper in one. It is leagues above Starmie and cannot easily be stopped." Hold the phone a moment because I have a list of reasons why Excadrill is a touch...bad. He's still a badass and a monster but not A+ material to me.

1. Rapid Spin will almost always compromise a sweeper set running Life Orb...and to a lesser extent, even the Air Balloon variant. When using Excadrill as a sweeper, coverage is important (having a pseudo EdgeQuake is funny and REALLY good) and losing either the coverage move or your boosting move leaves you open. Without Rock Slide, Talonflame and Charizard Y laugh at this thing, even in Sandstorm. Without Swords Dance, Skarmory and TankChomp wall this thing to no end. Not to mention that with Life Orb, Rapid Spinning means taking 10% off your health, leaving you even more open.

2. Excadrill's speed is so sad. To even be a decent sweeper, you either need to cover that with Scoliopede (remember that Baton Pass exists) or have a Tyranitar on your team. Either way, it compromises your team more than helping it, adding to the weaknesses more than the resists. Scoliopede may add a Fight Resist, but it adds another Fire Weakness. Tyranitar may give a Fire Resist, but it adds a Water, Ground, and Fight Weakness, once again limiting teambuilding to just supporting those two Pokemon. Requiring support is something every Pokemon needs, yes, but sounds like so much work just to build a sweep to clean late-game. It could be for nothing if you lose it or your direct Speed Support. Finally, if your plan is to Sand Rush through a team, you better have an answer to Rotom-W packed and ready or you're going down quick.

3. Excadrill's bulk sucks. HP is nice but everything else is so low. It's worse when you realize that the best way to run Rapid Spin is a bulky set, which loses to Offense in a heartbeat. Earthquake, Flare Blitz, Scald, Close Combat/Mach Punch are common in this meta (not to much Close Combat anymore, but still a threat). Excadrill loses to Special Attackers like Zard-Y, Keldeo, Fire-Coverage Altaria, etc., while still losing to Physical Attackers that can exploit the weaknesses like Azumarill and Landorus-T. TankChomp laughs at this Rapid Spinner because it beats it 1v1. Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, and Earthquake keep this one away (thankfully, Earthquake makes no contact). On the other hand, Starmie can opt for Ice Beam and defeat the best Stealth Rocker in the tier. Excadrill can beat Heatran easier, but doesn't even like switching into it. Starmie also has Recover to keep it alive longer, while Excadrill cannot heal itself.

I cannot deny the good, though. Immunity to Toxic AND Thunder Wave means, outside of burn and sleep, status is not a worry. Offensively, Excadrill is a powerhouse thanks to its coverage. Resists to Normal, Electric, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Dragon, Steel, and Fairy are definite pluses, allowing some forms of switch-ins against particular Pokemon, but it is destroyed by other coverage moves. If you're covered for Scizor, you're typically covered for Excadrill (unless you're Magnezone). Excadrill is best switched in on Diancie, Gardevoir, and Klefki. That's about it. Everything else poses too much a threat. Sandstorm is mandatory for a sweep, but remember that a team based around it has to be tight packed and ready for anything...and for me, that's too much support for a Pokemon in A+

Am I missing anything here? Am I too harsh on this thing? I love Excadrill but I think it should be either A or A-. Then again, I'm known to be part of an opinion minority.

1. The simple solution to this is to not run Rapid Spin on the sweeper set. It's a horrible option that either severely limits coverage or gives up the the ability to boost.

2. Did you actually say Excadrill needs Baton Pass support? Furthermore, are you saying that having one of 2 A ranked pokemon on your team is a bad thing? Also, they may share weaknesses, but you have 4 other teamslots to cover that with, and that same logic applies to Rotom-W (Which doesn't like taking boosted Rock Slides and has rather sketchy recovery). You also don't seem to realize just how threatening Excadrill is to many common teams. It can just run through faster, frailer teams with little problems (HO), threaten balance with a Swords Dance under it's belt, and even put in work against stall (which is it's worst match up). The support Excadrill needs pales in comparison to what it can do if given the chance.

3. It's bulk may not be the best, but it's decent for a pokemon that's so fast and powerful when its in it's element. I'm not saying that it's going to be tanking any SE hits, but it's typing allows it to set up on certain things like the Lati's after a draco, and clefable, while scaring out many other very common pokemon like M-Altaria, Zard-X, etc. It does have it's counters, but many of them ca be easily worn down throughout a match, think Landoge and Garchomp. Skarmory is an issue, but it's an issue for most physical attackers, and there are ways of trapping/luring it. And again, please stop mentioning Rapid Spin on Sweeper sets.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

To make matters worse, Excadrill has poor type synergy with Hippowdon and Tyranitar, which are required as partners in order to set up sand.

This is what makes Excadrill difficult to use in the first place. It requires an awful synergy with another Pokemon in order to work as a sweeper. Is it devastating? Under the correct circumstances, yes. Is it difficult to get those circumstances for long? I would say yes. This is why I made the post to begin with. I won't even try to quote and argue with people right now--maybe a later time when I'm not as frustrated at home with other things, but I want to get one thing out there: Rapid Spin in the sweeper set is bad. I said this. Restating this isn't a good counter-argument. It's RESTATING, hence the word's meaning. I'm saying that Excadrill is difficult to get off the ground (wait, is that a pun?) and is VERY high risk-high reward. It's why I wouldn't make a team based around it, but that's it. That's why I wanted it move down in the first place. It's not as splashable as other Pokemon are in A+ and requires a bit more support than most of them.

 

[Clair]

This is what makes Excadrill difficult to use in the first place. It requires an awful synergy with another Pokemon in order to work as a sweeper. Is it devastating? Under the correct circumstances, yes. Is it difficult to get those circumstances for long? I would say yes. This is why I made the post to begin with. I won't even try to quote and argue with people right now--maybe a later time when I'm not as frustrated at home with other things, but I want to get one thing out there: Rapid Spin in the sweeper set is bad. I said this. Restating this isn't a good counter-argument. It's RESTATING, hence the word's meaning. I'm saying that Excadrill is difficult to get off the ground (wait, is that a pun?) and is VERY high risk-high reward. It's why I wouldn't make a team based around it, but that's it. That's why I wanted it move down in the first place. It's not as splashable as other Pokemon are in A+ and requires a bit more support than most of them.

Splashability =/= viability. Excadrill's in A+ because its ability to check fast threats and clean lategame is second to none. RockyChomp being the go-to physical wall for offensive teams at the moment also helps it. On top of that, it gets the option of Rapid Spin to improve its matchup against defensive archetypes. While it's true that Tyranitar doesn't synergise well defensively with Excadrill, it tends to have similar counters which it can help wear down. Excadrill's just the definition of an A+ threat.

See, now this I can get behind. There are several Pokemon that are in spots that just aren't fitting (WOBBUFFET). So, I can see why the discussion can be deflected for this. I can't even be upset about it. I can't be for it being deflected because some people don't agree with it therefore we must drop it.

With that said, about my numerous Wobbuffet nominations. . . Lol, it's been ignored lately, and it's rather agonizing to read all these petty back-and-forths about Pokemon that are just fine where they are, but the taker of lives gets no love outside of mine. ;~; Lol, went completely ignored (neither raised nor was shown to be denied to raise) in the last rerank.
In all seriousness, Wobbuffet does not belong in C+, at all, B- I even feel is a bit low, but I understand how progression works. Hopefully this time some people will actually discuss it instead of liking my post and moving on. ._.

I'm hoping I don't have to quote myself yet again to get my point across. But in case I do:

Sorry Moose. Uh, I haven't used Wobb in a while but it has its share of problems which I think you're underselling. First of all, it does lack defensive presence, and against the typical Unaware stall it's almost dead weight besides using Shadow Tag to prevent double switches. Second, the influx of offensive Dark types hurts it (although they also partner well with Wobb to remove Keldeo). Third, there aren't that many weak all-out attackers of the kind Wobb predates in the meta (Raikou, M-Man, Keldeo, AV Azu, Zam, some Thundurus...what else?). More generally, though, it's just a hard Pokemon to put on a team. It's not at all reliable in terms of what it takes out, which makes it difficult to plan its teammates, and again, the fact that it checks so few threats if it's not at full health puts pressure on the rest of the team.

That said, it is a serious threat, and I have seen it used fairly effectively recently. I could probably get behind a move to B-, but it would be nice if other people who've used it could weigh in.

 

[procrastinat]

This is what makes Excadrill difficult to use in the first place. It requires an awful synergy with another Pokemon in order to work as a sweeper. Is it devastating? Under the correct circumstances, yes. Is it difficult to get those circumstances for long? I would say yes. This is why I made the post to begin with. I won't even try to quote and argue with people right now--maybe a later time when I'm not as frustrated at home with other things, but I want to get one thing out there: Rapid Spin in the sweeper set is bad. I said this. Restating this isn't a good counter-argument. It's RESTATING, hence the word's meaning. I'm saying that Excadrill is difficult to get off the ground (wait, is that a pun?) and is VERY high risk-high reward. It's why I wouldn't make a team based around it, but that's it. That's why I wanted it move down in the first place. It's not as splashable as other Pokemon are in A+ and requires a bit more support than most of them.

It may require more support than many other A+, but the payoff for using it is substantially higher, as you get to run through entire teams (occasonally without a even a SD), or at least clean up weakened ones. Besides, the amount of support isn't even that huge, as the 2 sand setters in Tyranitar and Hippowdon are A and A+ respectively. They do compound weaknesses but that's why you have 4 OTHER TEAMMATES. Finally, Excadrill really isn't that difficult to get off the ground. All you need to do is switch in either you're Tyranitar or Hippowdon (Those are downright easy to get in), and either exploit Excadrill's resistances (It has 8 of them, plus 2 immunities) or bring it in after your opponent gets a kill if you want to play it safe, as in sand it can revenge most fast pokemon in the tier. In practice, getting in Excadrill in is not as hard as you make it out to be.

 

[micahclay]

I'd like to nominate Klefki to rise to A Rank from A-. It is one of the best, if not the best spikers in the tier (Ferrothorn is its only competition). It has an incredible defensive typing, being able to check the most common offensive attacks like flying, ice, fairy, and poison. It's even able to completely eliminate one of its weaknesses with Magnet Rise, and set up spikes on the things that are supposed to beat it (Garchomp, Landorus-T, Hippowdon). It's able to easily wear these down (barring Landorus-Therian of course) with spikes. There are a few things that can safely switch in, such as fire types like Mega Charizard X. However, these are immediately crippled by Thunder Wave. Because of the offensive shifts occurring in the metagame, and because of the plethora of bulky ground types like Garchomp and Hippowdon, Klefki finds itself beating exactly what it needs to beat (and more), as well as effortlessly laying multiple layers of spikes. It also has a few other moves it can run as well. It can run fairy lock, to trap things before it dies, so that you guarantee the switch in to what you want. It can also run toxic to hit bulky walls, and add to the residual damage.

EDIT: Good point Talenheim, although I still think it's inferior to Ferro and Klefki as a spike stacker, as it doesn't fit on multiple play styles as well as Ferro (stall + balance) and Klefki (offense + balance)

 

[Taliheim]

Quick note:

[Klefki] is one of the best, if not the best spikers in the tier (Ferrothorn is its only competition)

This thing still exists. I'm neutral on the nomination itself, though.

 

[Vert]

oh yea. excadrill is pretty hot right now because of the influx of sand balance with mega alakazam or manaphy. it gets lots of opportunities to switch-in too if you are running air balloon as well. life orb is simply a disaster for offense because garchomp is their primary tank and it gets 2hkoed by earthquake. the one thing about excadrill is that people forget you can simply tweak a set to get past some of its checks. return nets a stronger hit on rotom-w which is pretty nice. you still check thundurus and talonflame after stealth rock. swords dance breaks past a lot of the physical walls and you can either run life orb + swords dance for great initial power and mind boggling strength or air balloon + swords dance, so superpower-less landorus-t and stuff like hippowdon can no longer check you. people need to stray away from the fact in which sand rush is its only set. choice scarf is seeing a huge surge in usage if you haven't been following olt or been laddering recently. mold breaker turns a lot of offensive teams into clean bait when there flying types are gone. specially defensive isn't that great, but it has a niche to keep in mind. finally, excadrill has a neat typing (comes on to latias, clefable, raikou,...), so getting it in is not as hard as you think. i think it is personally fine once you look at all these traits in the big picture.

last thing w/o being mean to anyone is that tyranitar + excadrill having bad defensive synergy doesn't really matter when tyranitar can run some neat sets to lure in excadrill's counters such as the mixed set with ice beam / fire blast / crunch / rocks or even be mega dragon dance which has about 4 different variations n_n. hippowdon + excadrill isn't so bad too considering how hippowdon is one of the bulkiest glue 'mons right now for balance.

garchomp is fun, but not s rank worthy

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Sorry Moose. Uh, I haven't used Wobb in a while but it has its share of problems which I think you're underselling. First of all, it does lack defensive presence, and against the typical Unaware stall it's almost dead weight besides using Shadow Tag to prevent double switches. Second, the influx of offensive Dark types hurts it (although they also partner well with Wobb to remove Keldeo). Third, there aren't that many weak all-out attackers of the kind Wobb predates in the meta (Raikou, M-Man, Keldeo, AV Azu, Zam, some Thundurus...what else?). More generally, though, it's just a hard Pokemon to put on a team. It's not at all reliable in terms of what it takes out, which makes it difficult to plan its teammates, and again, the fact that it checks so few threats if it's not at full health puts pressure on the rest of the team.

That said, it is a serious threat, and I have seen it used fairly effectively recently. I could probably get behind a move to B-, but it would be nice if other people who've used it could weigh in.

I actually use Wobbuffet quite often, it's one of the most used 'mons in my teams, next to Hippo of course. Anyways, I can't begin to argue against what you're saying, because sadly, all those things are true. As far as being a defensive presence goes, well, that's not really what it's meant to be, so if anyone is using it for its defensive attributes, consisting of it's HP stat and nothing else lol, then they should probably remove it and replace it for Mew. Against stall, you're absolutely right it is near dead weight, but when you consider stall is hardly existent in a meta with Wall/stallbreakers galore, it's not too big of a hindrance for a Pokemon that is capable of taking out multiple Pokemon on offense and balance. And when did Wobb have to take on weak offensive 'mons to be effective? I mean, it takes a +1 Flare Blitz from Adamant mega Charizard X and in turn kills it. And that's Wobbuffet's job, to take out problematic Pokemon. From turn 0 you know what Wobbuffet's main objective is, and that's to kill X Pokemon on the opponents side of the field. If you fail to do that (not you per se, that's more of a generalized statement) then that is entirely your fault. No one builds around Wobbuffet, Wobbuffet is used to blanket check the majority of offensive pokemon in OU such as, Zard X, Clefable, Manaphy, Mega Alakazam, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Mega Diancie, Excadrill, Garchomp, Heatran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Talonflame, Tornadus, Thundurus, Mega Gardevoir. . . you get my point I'm sure. Now, you're absolutely right, it isn't taking all of those out in one match, however, if you're weak to literally any of these, or a combination of about 2-3 of the Pokemon mentioned above, you have a way of taking them out. As I stated, going into a match, you know what Pokemon Wobbuffet is taking out, and nine times out of ten, when you're using Wobbuffet, you are using it to take out the Pokemon that otherwise clean sweeps your team, or severely hinders your own sweeper. I built a team that used Wobbuffet to the best of its abilities here. Wobbuffet is far from a "Plug n' Play" Pokemon, which is why I'm not nomming it for B+ or something stupid. However, it is an absolute monster nabbing 2-3 kills a game in the hands of a competent player.
Without getting too long winded, I feel if Gothitelle can be B and have the same problems Wobb has, Wobbuffet should at least move to B- at minimum.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

I actually use Wobbuffet quite often, it's one of the most used 'mons in my teams, next to Hippo of course. Anyways, I can't begin to argue against what you're saying, because sadly, all those things are true. As far as being a defensive presence goes, well, that's not really what it's meant to be, so if anyone is using it for its defensive attributes, consisting of it's HP stat and nothing else lol, then they should probably remove it and replace it for Mew. Against stall, you're absolutely right it is near dead weight, but when you consider stall is hardly existent in a meta with Wall/stallbreakers galore, it's not too big of a hindrance for a Pokemon that is capable of taking out multiple Pokemon on offense and balance. And when did Wobb have to take on weak offensive 'mons to be effective? I mean, it takes a +1 Flare Blitz from Adamant mega Charizard X and in turn kills it. And that's Wobbuffet's job, to take out problematic Pokemon. From turn 0 you know what Wobbuffet's main objective is, and that's to kill X Pokemon on the opponents side of the field. If you fail to do that (not you per se, that's more of a generalized statement) then that is entirely your fault. No one builds around Wobbuffet, Wobbuffet is used to blanket check the majority of offensive pokemon in OU such as, Zard X, Clefable, Manaphy, Mega Alakazam, Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Mega Diancie, Excadrill, Garchomp, Heatran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Talonflame, Tornadus, Thundurus, Mega Gardevoir. . . you get my point I'm sure. Now, you're absolutely right, it isn't taking all of those out in one match, however, if you're weak to literally any of these, or a combination of about 2-3 of the Pokemon mentioned above, you have a way of taking them out. As I stated, going into a match, you know what Pokemon Wobbuffet is taking out, and nine times out of ten, when you're using Wobbuffet, you are using it to take out the Pokemon that otherwise clean sweeps your team, or severely hinders your own sweeper. I built a team that used Wobbuffet to the best of its abilities here. Wobbuffet is far from a "Plug n' Play" Pokemon, which is why I'm not nomming it for B+ or something stupid. However, it is an absolute monster nabbing 2-3 kills a game in the hands of a competent player.
Without getting too long winded, I feel if Gothitelle can be B and have the same problems Wobb has, Wobbuffet should at least move to B- at minimum.

My problem with Wobb is that stuff just hits too hard for him in this meta. Yeah he can take a CharX flare blitz at +1 and kill with counter (assuming no rocks), but what if Zard dances again instead of uses flare blitz? Then you're facing a +2 ZardX, losing Wobbuffet, and likely getting swept. Because the threat of getting swept is real, you're almost forced to encore and sacrifice Wobb just to get out of that situation. It's the same even if CharX is +0 to start with. You can encore assuming he goes for the dragon dance, or you can counter expecting a flare blitz. Choose wrong and your Wobbuffet is basically dead. CharX isn't the only example here -- while Wobb can check most things if he's at full health, any damage Wobb takes from hazards & switching in can bring him to the 2hko range for many of the mons you mentioned. Then it's just a 50/50 choice whether between encore and counter: choose wrong and you lose Wobbuffet for nothing (at best) or you get swept (at worst).

I like Wobb and support a rise, but people are overselling him.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

My problem with Wobb is that stuff just hits too hard for him in this meta. Yeah he can take a CharX flare blitz at +1 and kill with counter (assuming no rocks), but what if Zard dances again instead of uses flare blitz? Then you're facing a +2 ZardX, losing Wobbuffet, and likely getting swept. Because the threat of getting swept is real, you're almost forced to encore and sacrifice Wobb just to get out of that situation. It's the same even if CharX is +0 to start with. You can encore assuming he goes for the dragon dance, or you can counter expecting a flare blitz. Choose wrong and your Wobbuffet is basically dead. CharX isn't the only example here -- while Wobb can check most things if he's at full health, any damage Wobb takes from hazards & switching in can bring him to the 2hko range for many of the mons you mentioned. Then it's just a 50/50 choice whether between encore and counter: choose wrong and you lose Wobbuffet for nothing (at best) or you get swept (at worst).

I like Wobb and support a rise, but people are overselling him.

Lol, my statement on taking the Flare blitz was just a testament on how much bulk it actually has, because it seemed as though Clair was making it seem like it only takes light hits. I also said it's not a "Plug n' Play" Pokemon. It does require some thought process, and I recognise that. But what doesn't?

 

[Deleted User 268985]

Lol, my statement on taking the Flare blitz was just a testament on how much bulk it actually has, because it seemed as though Clair was making it seem like it only takes light hits. I also said it's not a "Plug n' Play" Pokemon. It does require some thought process, and I recognise that. But what doesn't?

He pretty much does only take light hits. Keldeo, Offensive Lando-T, mega Altaria, mega Gardevoir, offensive Excadrill, and others are among the mons you listed that Wobb checks but can 2HKO Wobb with rocks damage. That means switching in Wobb is difficult without volt turn support or after a kill. U-turners can't be checked (especially if they're teamed with a ghost type who is immune to counter) and neither can volt-turners (especially when paired with a dark type who is immune to mirror coat).

Again, I like Wobb and I'm in support of a rise, but he's far from a one-sized fits all check to everything. Even when he does check things, he can't switch in against them.

 

[viol and bass]

Sorry Moose. Uh, I haven't used Wobb in a while but it has its share of problems which I think you're underselling. First of all, it does lack defensive presence, and against the typical Unaware stall it's almost dead weight besides using Shadow Tag to prevent double switches. Second, the influx of offensive Dark types hurts it (although they also partner well with Wobb to remove Keldeo). Third, there aren't that many weak all-out attackers of the kind Wobb predates in the meta (Raikou, M-Man, Keldeo, AV Azu, Zam, some Thundurus...what else?). More generally, though, it's just a hard Pokemon to put on a team. It's not at all reliable in terms of what it takes out, which makes it difficult to plan its teammates, and again, the fact that it checks so few threats if it's not at full health puts pressure on the rest of the team.

That said, it is a serious threat, and I have seen it used fairly effectively recently. I could probably get behind a move to B-, but it would be nice if other people who've used it could weigh in.

I've used it pretty extensively. First of all, I'm gonna assume you mean "offensive presence" because in no way does Wobbuffet lack defensive presence. LO Weavile fails to KO with Knock Off, for instance. Lackluster defensive typing doesn't mean a thing when 1) you have such enormous defensive stats and 2) the only time the opponent gets to choose what pokemon to switch into Wobb is when Wobb's just killed a member of their team. Moving on, I can add to your list a bit. Mega Medicham, Mega Metagross, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Lopunny are all screwed by Wobb if they're AOA sets, which they generally are. These are just the threats that Wobb beats without even clicking Encore. These are big threats, which take up the mega slot, that Wobb can eliminate very consistently. And they're all present on offensive teams, which is not even the variant that Wobb is best against. He can hold his own against offensive teams, but excels even more against more defensive teams where he can use Encore and possibly Safeguard to facilitate free setup for his teammates. Anyway, to this AOA category, we can also add stuff like Conkeldurr, Kyurem-B (Encore then Mirror Coat or reflect. You will not be 2HKOed), and Tornadus-T (Use Counter; they will always choose either Knock Off or U-turn).

Now, let's add more to the list of mons Wobb preys on: "any choice user" is a pretty nice big category. Let's also allow mons which don't use AOA sets, but whose status-category moves are functionally useless against Wobb, which will eventually more or less force them to attack, such as the latis (and keep in mind that if they don't attack, you can encore Defog or whatever and switch in your BD Azumarill and go to town).

Now, let's add the biggest prey of all for Wobb, defensive mons like Clefable. You switch in and use Encore. Clefable is functionally useless right now because it cannot switch out to pass wishes, Thunder Wave means nothing against Wobb and facilitates setup by Wobb's teammates if Wobb uses Encore then Safeguard, and Moonblast is doing 20-something percent and thus Mirror Coat will 2HKO it. So do you see how Wobb turns this S-ranked threat into complete setup bait, if not removing it entirely? This is the largest category of Wobb-victims. I can list many more of them. So in conclusion, Wobbuffet threatens to remove outright a large portion of the tier, and threatens to turn most of the rest of it into fodder for completely free setup by his teammates. He's a monster if used correctly and deserves a higher rank.

 

[bludz]

I think the issue with wobb is how team specific its support (primarily the way it functions) is. To compare it to another low ranked pokemon - Seismitoad is a team specific pokemon because its attributes lead it to often be outclassed by other water and ground types. However the support that it offers is not team specific because every team wants Stealth Rock and water absorb is welcome on most teams as well.

Wobbuffet's support is a very unique one: it is a trapper, revenge killer and creator of free turns. Other trappers like Dugtrio can be revenge killers but what they revenge is specific to the degree that Wobbuffet performs the role quite differently (this is also apparent in its execution of this role).

These are desirable qualities in a pokemon but issues with Wobb lie in its inability to switch into all the things you want to use it for. This is strange for a passive pokemon that relies on bulk and ability to perform its job and means that you often only bring it in after losing something.

The combination of attributes that Wobbuffet has makes it difficult to fit on teams outside of specific types of builds. Yes it can revenge a long list of things but isn't as easily thrown into a team as less passive pokemon particularly since it is often found on offense.

That said, Wobbuffets distinct role is fairly strong and I don't see it as on par with C+ rank mons. I believe B- is a more suitable rank given its ability to get a kill in almost every game against offense while still providing the utility of encore and Shadow tag against certain fatmons.

 

[Analytic]

A+>A

Excadrill is a pretty lacklustre spinner. It loses to pretty much every hazard setter out there, Garchomp, Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Ferrothorn, and these pokemon pretty much come in for free on the Rapid Spin, and get back hazards again. I feel that its spinner set isn't what makes it worthy of A+, but the combination of its SD set+functioning vs offensive team archetypes/some balance team archetypes. SD+Air Balloon is really nice at the moment, allows it to set up on Hippowdon without Whirlwind, and puts a lot of pressure on common Sand balance builds. The combination of its performance vs offensive builds+some balance builds make it worthy of A+, great pokemon overall.

Neutral(Leaning toward S)

This thing can run a multitude of sets pretty effectively in OU. The most popular set, RockyHelmet(I believe this to be alone more than worthy of this nom), is pulled off so effectively by it. The amount of residual damage that it racks up on physical threats like Bisharp, M-Metagross, Scizor(M), Talonflame, M-Lopunny, is just insane. HO team archetypes are such that they're often left vulnerable to these pokemon, and Garchomp is a really vital cushion for these teams to fall back on when threatened by the likes of them. Yeah, the lack of recovery hurts, but it does its job very nicely, almost all the time.

Another set that I tried out the other day was SD+LO/Lum Berry which really worked well. It had that surprise factor which really helped because of the fact that users of Manaphy, Kyurem-B, Charizard-X, Volcarona, M-Gardevoir, expect the TankChomp set and don't expect to be outsped, resulting in me netting a kill. LO Chomp also puts a lot of pressure on Slowbro, Clefable, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus, after one SD.

These are the two sets that it can pull off really well atm, and I feel like it definitely defines the metagame and is worthy of S Rank.

 

[EternalSnowman]

A+>A

Excadrill is a pretty lacklustre spinner. It loses to pretty much every hazard setter out there, Garchomp, Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Ferrothorn, and these pokemon pretty much come in for free on the Rapid Spin, and get back hazards again. I feel that its spinner set isn't what makes it worthy of A+, but the combination of its SD set+functioning vs offensive team archetypes/some balance team archetypes. SD+Air Balloon is really nice at the moment, allows it to set up on Hippowdon without Whirlwind, and puts a lot of pressure on common Sand balance builds. The combination of its performance vs offensive builds+some balance builds make it worthy of A+, great pokemon overall.

Neutral(Leaning toward S)

This thing can run a multitude of sets pretty effectively in OU. The most popular set, RockyHelmet(I believe this to be alone more than worthy of this nom), is pulled off so effectively by it. The amount of residual damage that it racks up on physical threats like Bisharp, M-Metagross, Scizor(M), Talonflame, M-Lopunny, is just insane. HO team archetypes are such that they're often left vulnerable to these pokemon, and Garchomp is a really vital cushion for these teams to fall back on when threatened by the likes of them. Yeah, the lack of recovery hurts, but it does its job very nicely, almost all the time.

Another set that I tried out the other day was SD+LO/Lum Berry which really worked well. It had that surprise factor which really helped because of the fact that users of Manaphy, Kyurem-B, Charizard-X, Volcarona, M-Gardevoir, expect the TankChomp set and don't expect to be outsped, resulting in me netting a kill. LO Chomp also puts a lot of pressure on Slowbro, Clefable, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus, after one SD.

These are the two sets that it can pull off really well atm, and I feel like it definitely defines the metagame and is worthy of S Rank.

Gotta say Garchomp can run quite a few more sets that work effectively in this Meta, most notably the Choice Scarf and the SubSD Sand Veil set, both of which can run effectively due to their unique traits, Choice Scarf can outspeed +1 ZardX regardless of Jolly (Something Kyube fails to do). It also outpaces common threats and it's STABs are quite abusable after certain mons are eliminated. SubSD SandVeil with something like Lum or Brightpowder may be considered cheese, but it is quite effective at setting up due to it's evasion, so it can would be checks and KO back after getting a SD up.

 

[Malheur]

I admit I did not read every single post, but I want to question Diancie-Mega ranking.
I like the Pokemon a lot, but it also seems to fail at killing common bulky Pokemon such as Hippowdon or Clefable. I find the Pokemon quite hard to use due to its typing because of the Steel and Water weaknesses.
Magic Bounce is amazing but it's usually very risky to make a good use of this ability given Diancie-Mega typing and bulk.

So I'm curious to hear some examples of successful cores with this Pokemon.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

Going to just repost some nominations I made a while back that hasn't been discussed all that much.

Also, nominating Whimsicott to C+. With OK defensive stats of 60/85/75 as well as decent typing of grass/fairy and a fantastic ability in Prankster backed up by a load of status moves, Whimsicott finds a niche as a support pokemon. As the only viable pokemon in OU to have access to prankster and encore (nobody cares about your Baton Pass Volbeat), Whimsicott can find many opportunities to come in and give another one of your pokemon to set up. This also allows Whimsicott to set up other status moves, such as Tailwind, Trick Room (Prankster does not give this priority for those wondering), Leech Seed, Stun Spore, etc. It can also pivot out with U-Turn for momentum (your opponent will probably switch if they get encore'd into a status move) as well as Memento if you really want something to come in and sweep. It also has Moonblast to prevent itself from becoming taunt bait.

Typing wise, this thing is fantastic. Thanks to it's fairy typing, it can switch into a dragon type move and encore the opponent, likely forcing them to switch. Whimsicott acts as a fantastic Dragon Check thanks to this, allowing it to come into Garchomp, Charizard X, and the Latis with a bit of prediction. It's typing allows it to wall a variety of offensive pokemon, such as Breloom, Keldeo, and Kingdra. Whimsicott can act as a fantastic member of a FWG core that usually pulls it's weight, especially when paired up with Heatran (in my experience).

To conclude, Whimsicott should go to C+. The only things holding it back are it's mediocre bulk and a somewhat unreliable source of recovery in leech seed.

Nominating Tangrowth to B+.

Tangrowth is a very interesting pokemon, having exceptional physical bulk as well as decent offensive stats, but lacking special defense and speed. The reason why I think Tangrowth should rise is because of it being able to run multiple sets that can each carry out it's own function, making Tangrowth quite versatile.

The first set, Physically Defensive, has amazing utility in Leech Seed and Knock Off and is able to beat the majority of physical attackers in all of OU that lack a STAB Super effective attack. Being able to counter Metagross, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Gyarados, and checking several others is no small feat. With Regenerator, Tangrowth finds it's job of sponging attacks and annoying the opponent with Knock Off and Leach Seed extremely easy. With pure grass typing, Tangrowth is immune to Leech Seed and Powder moves, which is also a plus. With infestation, Tangrowth can beat several things that plan to switch in just to pivot out of a leech seed or giga drain, such as Ferrothorn. Tangrowth also has access to Sleep Powder, which can really support the team a lot. Compared to fellow grass type Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth finds itself being able to switch repeatedly into battle, while Venusaur gets worn down rather quickly.

The next set, Assault Vest, makes Tangrowth's poor special defense stat noticeably better. This allows Tangrowth to check Manaphy, Starmie, and the Latis, all A rank pokemon, while also being able to check physical attackers. Like Tornadus-T, Tangrowth makes a good assault vest user due to it's ability, regenerator, which makes Tangrowth not reliant on Wish Support. While Tangrowth loses on the utility of Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, its still able to annoy the foe with Knock Off.

The last set, Choice Specs, is a very underrated set (which I may be the only person who actually uses it in OU) hits incredibly hard. With Choice Specs, Tangrowth has immediate power, easily OHKOing some of the bulkiest pokemon in the tier with the correct move. Here are some calcs displaying Choice Specs Tangrowth's power:

Hide

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 354-417 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 340-404 (114.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 220-260 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 278-328 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Choice Specs Tangrowth is an extremely powerful threat and is one of the reason why I think Tangrowth should go to B+. Just to make sure you guys don't think I'm pulling all of this from my ass, here are a few replays of Tangrowth in action.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230468735
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-230963409
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-240280197 (Battle against Tricking in the OU Mini-tour)

To conclude, do to it's sheer bulk and versatility, Tangrowth should go to B+.

 

[bludz]

Looks like there's been a bit of talk about it already but just gonna echo

Dragalge B+ -> B
I think the hype has died down a bit on the offensive t spikes set (yeah specs certainly isn't the best lol). It's a nice tspike setter but suffers from incredibly poor speed tier. It has nice typing and spdef to check things like Zard Y and Keldeo but without reliable recovery is simply worn down over time. On top of that if you consider its prediction reliance due to its bad speed it really just doesn't put in work in a lot of matches. Psychic Manaphy is also fairly popular in my experience so it's not the best check to that on those M-Sable semistall type builds. Checks Gengar okay but Gengar's less popular these days anyway

Overall still a pretty good mon with that nice utility but just not as much of a threat as the rest of B+ imo.

 

[Flarowak]

All right I have to speak up on this:

Excadrill A+ =>A I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I agree that excadrill isnt the best spinner right now, however just in the role of a sand sweeper he is incredibly hard to keep in check. With how easy it is to keep ttar or hippo alive because of their amazing bulk, you can keep samd handy at any point of a match and keep excadrill handy to come in and wreck almost everything. There are few things aside from defensive lando-t, who I dont see a lot of lately, to come in and check this thing. The sd set is really easy to set up and hits insanely hard. I just can't see a reason for it to drop.