Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[CloudyNeonz]

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 252-300 (60 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 142-168 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As long as you don't switch into an ice punch tankchomp will always beat Lopunny straightout. it needs minimum of 2 hits to kill chomp (3 if Lop uses fake out) dealing 60% residual damage from rough skin+ rocky helmet which along with an Earthquake is a KO.

But the thing is, garchomp lacks any recovery, so after a bit of Sr damage and such, it'll soon die to a ice punch and your Lopunny weak team will fall apart

 

[Punchshroom]

TankChomp operates on the fact that (most of) the mons it checks do not have reliable recovery of their own, or at the very least it does enough chip damage to them so that they can be revenge killed. Sure, TankChomp would get worn down overtime, but the likes of MLopunny, MMetagross, Tyranitar, etc. do not have reliable recovery either and get worn down alongside TankChomp. TankChomp is also the biggest factor of CB Talon's decline, as any Talon that does not carry Roost these days will be kamikazing themselves into TankChomp with zero hope of outlasting it.

While TankChomp is very unlikely to outlast the mons it checks, if it has inflicted like 87.5% of damage (the overall damage it inflicts via Rough Skin + helmet after 3 contact hits) on the foe without lifting a finger it's already kind of done its job. MLop teams would be foolish to employ TankChomp as their lone response without deploying some priority users, which is how they keep MLop (and stuff like MMetagross) in check in the first place.

 

[Flamer]

My main issue with chomp is that while it is a great way for offense to deal with dangerous mons like lopunny and talon, it's never going to be a reliable way of stopping them while still having the vitality to take on anything else after that. People kind of downplay this all the time but having no recovery whatsoever really blows, mons like latias and latios have roost, allowing them to switch into mons like zardY and keldeo repeatedly without too much fear of being whittled down by entry hazards and other stuff (other that pursuit trapping of course). Chomp on the other hand is pressured from the start of the match to ensure it keeps enough health to stop the mons it should while also setting rocks up at some point. Any competent player can weaken chomp just by making switches in conjunction with entry hazards, every percent counts for chomp. Even mons in a similar boat, like heatran are far more well off as they have the liberty of running lefties and being able to stall for hp, rocky helm is pretty much a must for defensive chomp. Obviously garchomp has other sets running for it, such as offensive SD (which is underrated as hell) and scarf which might be able to push him to S on the basis of versatility but I feel like rocky helmet chomp is way to easily whittled to be a means of justification for a bump to S, I mean its good and all but hardly something I feel is the crem de la crem of ORAS OU like the rest of S is.

 

[Dread Arceus]

why are we arguing about Chomp not going to S because of a single set? Clearly the Tank set alone isn't S rank in and of itself (although it's helped see a slight shift in the meta from physical to specially based offense). Its tank sets are so offense, specifically HO, doesn't have a 100% loss rate every time they see a Mega Lopunny piloted by a half-decent player. No, it doesn't beat it all the time, but it stops it from spamming Fake Out and will generally at least get chip damage on it so that something can rkill with priority. It doesn't have to consistently counter MLop, just keep it from blowing up long enough that you can sufficiently damage the opponent's team.
Let's not forget either that it also soft counters a ton of physical threats, including Mega Metagross, non-Ice Fang Mega Gyarados, Mega Scizor, and Talonflame, just to name a few-all of which are pretty significant threats to offense teams.
At any rate, Chomp has a number of impressive sets, including SD, Sash lead, Scarf, mixed, and hell, even Band and Hone Claws are pretty solid [explanation on hone claws set]. It's just overall a super versatile mon that's easy to slap on teams and pretty much single-handedly keeps HO from being a garbage playstyle in the current meta.

 

[Anduril]

IIRC wasn't the Tank set the reason why Garchomp went to A+ in the first place? I'm pretty sure that people deemed that even though the other sets are viable (and SD is rather good from my experience), there are nowhere near as viable as the Tank set.

The other sets are plenty viable and just add to Chomp's unpredictable nature. Chomp is fantastic on offense and the combination of its sets make it S worthy imo

 

[thesecondbest]

Azumarill to S : Agree. Has 0 switchins on offense. Checks the big dogs like Zard-X and Keldeo. Very good Excadrill check for offense. BD is underused at the moment, but is very effective as a win condition. Great mon and can fit on almost everyting except stall (sap sipper anyone).

How does Azu check Zard-X? Bulky Zard-X with willowisp is a counter to azu. And belly drum is not underused. It's the set that every team has to anticipate and check.

Reuniclus B+ -> B: Agree. Yes, the cell undergoing mitosis (?), has regenerator, but it's weak to Knock off. Can't really all anything with its weak typing.

99% of the time reuniclus will have magic guard. That is what makes it amazing. I agree the typing is bad, but it is way bulkier than clefable and on teams that already have knock off and u-turn switchins, reuniclus serves as a great wincon. It also has a good life orb trick room cleaner set, something clef dreams of doing effectively.

And it doesn't matter that chomp doesn't have reliable recovery. It is amazing vs offense (talking about the tank set). Mons on offense that it checks like lop, meta, and hoopa also don't have recovery, so it can still check those. Then when you switch out it gets dragon tailed back in. Then take into account the other sets Garchomp has as well. S worthy overall.

 

[MattyBrollic]

I actually think that garchomp should move up to S. At first I was skeptical because the tank chomp set alone isn't necessarily S rank worthy.

However, the tank chomp set is one of if not the easiest Pokemon to just slap on a team and perform multiple rolls efficiently.

With offense on the rise, offensive variants of garchomp whether it be sash, lum, or life orb sets, can really perform well against offensive teams that can easily take out the tank chomp set.

Its move pool can be somewhat unpredictable and its stats are very well rounded. Garchomp's versatility, consistency, and unpredictablitiy, make it as just as viable as the S-ranked mons

- Garchomp to S

 

[Slayerblade]

Garchomp is up there with Azumarril and Mega Scizor as the best mon in A+, but S seems a bit too much. It can run a variety of sets but only the truly good sets are obviously Bulky helmet and possibly Berry SD; But even they have their weaknesses such as the lack of recovery and being easily picked off by the plethora of faster threats with ice moves.

The choiced sets are very situational and easy to play around. Being easy to slap on teams doesn't make a mon S rank. If the criteria for S rank was "easy to slap on teams" Ferrothorn, Rotom and Lando-T would be S rank.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Chomp should move to S. The tank set is borderline S, but the other sets, imo, push it where it should be. Be it offensive SD, Scarf or mixed, Chomp is definitely one of the most versatile mons.

Most of what TankChomp provides defensively has already been mentioned, so I'll focus on a very underrated set, the mixed one. It's able to break through mons such as Hippo/Lando-T and bulky steel-types way more easily than its other sets due to Draco Meteor and a much stronger Fire Blast (due to the SpA EVs). I personally prefer Life Orb because I'd really like to outspeed Mega Gardy and other base 100s, but you can run Garchompite for impressive overall bulk and no recoil. It also helps against opposing TankChomp because you take no recoil damage. Overall, really solid set that helps Chomp meet the standards for an S-rank mon.

Garchomp: A+ ----> S

 

[4daptability]

How does Azu check Zard-X? Bulky Zard-X with willowisp is a counter to azu. And belly drum is not underused. It's the set that every team has to anticipate and check.

99% of the time reuniclus will have magic guard. That is what makes it amazing. I agree the typing is bad, but it is way bulkier than clefable and on teams that already have knock off and u-turn switchins, reuniclus serves as a great wincon. It also has a good life orb trick room cleaner set, something clef dreams of doing effectively.

And it doesn't matter that chomp doesn't have reliable recovery. It is amazing vs offense (talking about the tank set). Mons on offense that it checks like lop, meta, and hoopa also don't have recovery, so it can still check those. Then when you switch out it gets dragon tailed back in. Then take into account the other sets Garchomp has as well. S worthy overall.

Azu fares well against DD Charizard X, which is what I think he was trying to say. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Azumarill counters every Charizard X set, but against the DD set, which I believe is the most common set (correct me if I'm wrong here), it can actually RK (if it's healthy enough with Play Rough), or at least prevent it from setting up (252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 104 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 163-193 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

 

[Machi]

I have a question, why did mega Latias drop down to b+? Sure hoopas come and ruined it's life but it's
certainly a - worthy

The loss of Lando-I is another big reason, since it was a fairly good answer to said mon which is was one of the bigger reasons for using it. The loss of Lando-I and Hoopa-U just pretty much compounded the issues.

 

[DragonAscent]

God, can we not have another chomp to S discussion for 20 pages? The mods said it wasn't gonna happen. Talk about some of the lower ranks; they're the ones that could use polishing, not the cream of the crop super duper 3EZ mons on the border of A+ and S.


Edit: fair enough, I haven't been keeping up with this thread as much as I should. Sorry!

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

God, can we not have another chomp to S discussion for 20 pages? The mods said it wasn't gonna happen. Talk about some of the lower ranks; they're the ones that could use polishing, not the cream of the crop super duper 3EZ mons on the border of A+ and S.

Klefki to A, Azu to S, Garchomp to S and Reuniclus to B are discussion points as well as anything else a ranking team member decides.

The mods said otherwise.

 

[branflakes]

I've been a bit torn on garchomp, but a rise to S sounds pretty reasonable right now. I don't mean to echo people who have made similar points before me, but one of Garchomp's strongest qualities is that it can fit easily on almost every kind of team. Two things allow garchomp to have this kind of easy splashability: all of its sets require very minimal support, and between only a couple sets (SD lum and balky helmet) it can function well against any kind of team. It's capable of both threatening and fitting on semi-stall, balance, full offense, rain offense, baton pass, bulky offense, sand anything, and even full stall -- though it's not quite passive enough to be considered a candidate for full stall i suppose. I know the comparison argument is highly dependent on the assumption that other pokemon are correctly placed, but Garchomp really seems to have a bit more utility, versatility, splashability and offensive presence than average for A+ mons. Idk why I keep use the term "splashable" because i think it's dumb but i really can't think of a better term atm.


also

I love AM so much, he's my idol and is correct about everything. Don't deny him and his spiritual love

Just want to remind everyone where my inspiration comes from.

edit: >:I

 

[Goodra]

Gonna echo others and say Garchomp should be risen to S. Tankchomp alone is a great mon in this current meta that checks a lot of the prominent threats. The fact though it has a lot of other good sets is what pushes it into S rank for me. Sash, Mixed, Scarf are all viable sets that general excel at what they are supposed to do and can make prediction for this guy tough at times if it's not Tankchomp which even then Tankchomp itself has a lot of options for it's fourth slot including Toxic, Endure, Stone Edge, etc so you can't always bring in your own check. This maybe giving to much credit with this next statement but I feel like Grachomp is the Dragon Type version of Clefable when it comes to fitting him on teams. I feel he is just that versatile in this current meta!

 

[Josh]

I strongly support seeing Klefki rise to A. It's viable in both Ubers and AG as well, and for good reason. These swaggy ass keys are just absolutely amazing support mons. With a terrific typing and a great ability in prankster, screens, fairy lock, spikes, foul play, thunder wave and other support moves in general, this thing is just a beast. Want 1 of the 2 weaknesses gone? Hello magnet rise with PRIORITY assuring this magnet does indeed rise. It also has the ability to run a fairly offectivr offense set rather than support as a surprise, which can be quite effective. In general Klefki is just such a great mon and fits well on so many teams, it's a clear candidate for a promotion. It also is definitely on par with other A mons.​

 

[Dragongroudon9]

Klefki: A- ----> A, Agree. Klefki is very good at it's job setting up spikes and spreading skillful yellow magic. It can run Magnet Rise allowing it to set up Spikes even on EQ spammers. Having a decent last slot option in Play Rough/Dazzling Gleam/Flash Cannon, allowing Klefki to beat MDiancie and MSab kind of. Klefki is also a good Lati switch in as well as a non Heat Wave Torn switch in. It may not be the best mon in A if it gets moved up, but I think it does its job well enough to get the promo.

Azumarill: A+ ----> S, Agree. This thing has 2 actual counters. Mega Venusaur and Mega Aggron. Both take up a mega slot so if you don't build around these, you do not have a 100% safe switch in to this thing. Tentacruel is seen as a guaranteed switch in, which I don't get. It is 3HKO'd by a band Play Rough and takes around 60% from a CB Knock Off. And Tenta has no recovery making it shaky. 3 main sets that are all very effective and almost beat the entire metagame, worthy of S rank.

Garchomp: A+ ----> S, Disagree. I like using Garchomp, but I dislike using it at the same time. Imo, and I am probably going to get heat for this, but I think chomp is overhyped. Yes it is amazing at its job as a rocker and defensive pivot and a phazer. It punishes U-Turners like no other Pokemon in the game, and with it being so common this is amazing for chip damage. It just has a lot of checks that force a switch which can lead to set up/a hard hit. Garchomp does have other sets including offensive and scarf, which are nice sets but again I don't think they are S worthy. Probably a lack of description here, but it is because I am bad.

Reuniclus: B+ ----> B, Disagree. Though I do not have enough experience facing/using this thing, after watching enough battles with this thing putting in the finest of work setting up CM's and cleaning late game, I don't think this thing deserves to drop at all. It is on par with other B+ ranks for sure... And God forbid it falls in the same rank as Bludz!!!


That's all I have to say for now, I am sorry if this seems a bit lack of description, I just came on and saw the discussions were this, and I would like to have my opinion known. :]

 

[Flexxen]

First post in this thread so pls bear with me ^^

We already had many posts on this but I'm also gonna support Klefki rising to A. The metagame shifting more towards offense due to Hoopa-U's introduction really benefitted Klefki from what I've seen and experienced by using it myself. It is not only one of the most annoying mons for offense to face, it is also easily one of the best support mons for offensive teams. Not gonna ramble too much on everything Klefki can do because most ppl are probably tired of that but I think the ability to have a 100% safe way to stop most setup-sweepers or severely cripple most offensive threats is more valuable than ever in this metagame. It just takes a lot of pressure of offensive teams when dealing with dangerous setup-sweepers, they can't just take advantage of a potential mispredictions or a choiced mon locked into an unfavourable move as long as Klefki is still around, which allows you to play more recklessly and aggressively. Spikes are an other thing which are really good at the moment imo and out of the mons which fit well on offensive teams Klefki is the most reliable and most viable setter. The rise of bulky grounds like Garchomp and Hippowdon is ironically also something which really benefits Klefki because it can either abuse them as Spike fooder with Magnet Rise or Toxic them to wear them down for stuff like MegaLopunny especially on obvious pivot switches to dodge the expected T-Wave.

I don't have that strong of an opinion on Garchomp but I wouldn't mind seeing it rise to S. Priority moves are more important ever and TankChomp punishes the fuck out of these moves. What also makes TankChomp so valuable is that its very presence, even if it's at a low amount of health, makes your opponent reluctant to go for any contact move, which is something you can definetely take advantage of and this is also one of the reasons why Chomp's other sets like LO or offensive SD are better than ever because they do exactly that.
Sure, TankChomp can and will definetely be pressured especially due its lack of recovery but in return it also puts a significant amount of pressure on your opponent with the potential recoil from any contact move. The switching/playing around it argument also works both ways imo, you can expect a competent player to pressure TankChomp as much as you can expect a competent player to force his opponent to use contact moves and punish it or take advantage of his reluctance to use contact moves.

 

[CloudyNeonz]

The loss of Lando-I is another big reason, since it was a fairly good answer to said mon which is was one of the bigger reasons for using it. The loss of Lando-I and Hoopa-U just pretty much compounded the issues.

But shouldn't normal Latias drop aswell I know I didn't check Lando-I aswell but it was a solid answer and Latias also loses to hoopa

 

[Flygonial]

But shouldn't normal Latias drop aswell I know I didn't check Lando-I aswell but it was a solid answer and Latias also loses to hoopa

Latios also loses to Hoopa-U - albeit less badly. The thing is, Latias generally fills in a different role from Mega Latias. MLatias takes your mega slot and is generally seen running a bulky set rather than an offensively biased one, which usually is Calm Mind. Latias still fills in the role of a solid offensive defogger that can take its fair share of hits and Healing Wish support is also really, really nice. That's another thing that Mega Latias usually won't run - as the bulkier builds its found on generally don't appreciate it nearly as much as an offensive team. The two aren't really all that comparable - they fill different roles and one takes up a mega slot. If Latias is to drop, then Hoopa-U probably wouldn't be the entire reason as it's not as much of a concern.

 

[Machi]

But shouldn't normal Latias drop aswell I know I didn't check Lando-I aswell but it was a solid answer and Latias also loses to hoopa

Except for most part you don't exactly play MLatias the same was you do normal Latias. You don't actually need Hoopa-U out of the way to perform what Latias is normally expected to do so, namely Defog/Healing wish whereas you do need Hoopa-U out of the way to perform the more offensive niche of MLatias as a win-con, CM-Stored Power etc.

Putting aside the offensive niche of MLatias, being more capable of setting up, the defensive/supportive niches basically overlap and that is where the slot as a mega comes into play, meaning less opportunity cost for the same route. Whereas for the offensive route well... the other does tend to have more immediate power with LO and EV spreads, but I would say this tends to come secondary since primary reason would still be support.

There is the other route of the bulky support that MLatias can fulfill nicely but I think this is where Hoopa-U comes into the picture again, since it won't appreciate taking a SE hit from those offenses.

 

[Firer4]

I feel somewhat uncomfortable with Medicham moving up and Mega Hera not. Hera is alot bulkier while sporting a better typing and far better coverage moves.

Medichams perks are of course the speed, priority and hitting slightly harder. But I find the latter coming rarely into play, whereas the speed difference isnt that important in the current meta. Most base 80s run adamant anywhay, so its mostly Heatran (which u outspeed pre mega, you can even delay mega if u want), cube (same story) and not tying with base 100 and we all hate to rely on ties anywhay.

Priority is a pretty huge deal imo, helping medicham out alot vs offense, but with heracross bulk and the fact that landot can barely touch him you usually get at least a 1 for 1 out of it anywhay.

What I find a huge letdown in Medicham is that albeit its enomourus power and its wallbreaking role it is hard walled by very common defensive pokemon, most notably Sableye. I'm not sure how common Tpunch and Slowbro are atm (or celebi) but that just more stuff you cant handle. The mindgames if the opponent has a Ghost or Protect are just the icing on the cake.

Hera on the other hand gets plenty of opportunities to switch in vs defense and has no counter whatsoever. Something is going to die when he enters (well aside from doublade but meh. that thing rekts medi as well anywhays).


Now even though it might sound so, I am not trying to say that Heracross is a better version of medicham, thats just not true. I just think that Hera can get a similiar job done and is on par with Medicham.




Btw I am assuming a Jolly SD Heracross for my statements.

 

[Jaroda]

Fairy types have a lot to do with it. Medicham can actually dispose of numerous faster Fairies with combination Fake Out/Bullet Punch, great for Altaria, Gardevoir and Diancie. Psychic and Fire types are also far more common offensively which Medicham is not weak to. Heracross also risks self-destruction against Tankchomp with its multi hit contact moves, or CC defense drops. Then there's the fact Hoopa-U sits at a higher speed tier, is arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier, and doesn't cost a mega slot.

 

[procrastinat]

Fairy types have a lot to do with it. Medicham can actually dispose of numerous faster Fairies with combination Fake Out/Bullet Punch, great for Altaria, Gardevoir and Diancie. Psychic and Fire types are also far more common offensively which Medicham is not weak to. Heracross also risks self-destruction against Tankchomp with its multi hit contact moves, or CC defense drops. Then there's the fact Hoopa-U sits at a higher speed tier, is arguably the best wallbreaker in the tier, and doesn't cost a mega slot.

None of Heracross' multi-hit moves actually make contact, aside from Arm Thrust which should never be used.

Just so this post isn't just a one-liner, Klefki should definitely move up. The little key ring will pull it's weight in pretty much every match with priority Spikes and T-Wave. It's also the best Dual-Screener in the tier with the ability to set them up against pretty much everything before taking a hit, which can be just as life saving as Thunder Wave.

 

[henry]

New slate to discuss :D

Azumarill: A+ -> S
Ferrothorn: A -> A+
Gengar: A+ -> A
Klefki: A- -> A
Hydreigon: B+ -> B
Reuniclus: B+ -> B
Azelf: B -> B-
Nidoking: D -> C-/C
Nidoqueen: D -> C-/C
Venusaur: D -> C

AM Edit: Been asked for these and approved by ranking team as added points of discussion.

Crawdaunt: B > B-
Goodra: C > C+
Shaymin: D > C-

End of Edit

VR somewhat unanimously decided that garchomp doesn't deserve s-rank. pretty much the only argument that I saw was that garchomp is too easy to use and can run a variety of sets on different playstyles. while this is all true it has little to do with whether it should be s-rank or not. with that logic pokemon like heatran are, to me and others, indisputably more qualified for s-rank than garchomp is. even if we used the arguments others used as valid garchomp nominations it wouldn't deserve its spot. its no doubt one of the best pokemon in A+, but is honestly not up to par with the rest of S in the least bit. this is a short explanation about it but if more people ask i can post about it more later.