Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[PeekoTheBoy]

Also where did u get the notion that this checks mzor close combat actually heals it.

M-Scizor doesn't have anything to touch Coba (except Superpower, which is why Cobalion is a check) without setting up, and Roar can fix that. But like you said, it can't do everything at once which means that packing Roar would be dropping a move that checks other mons.

 

[Josh Morales]

M-Scizor doesn't have anything to touch Coba (except Superpower, which is why Cobalion is a check) without setting up, and Roar can fix that. But like you said, it can't do everything at once which means that packing Roar would be dropping a move that checks other mons.

Bulky SD Mega Scizor could set up to +6 and sweep your whole team by roosting off the damage, of course given that you don't have roar.

 

[PeekoTheBoy]

Bulky SD Mega Scizor could set up to +6 and sweep your whole team by roosting off the damage, of course given that you don't have roar.

Cobalion gets SD too, he can set up and OHKO Sciz. Bulky SD M-Sciz at +6 gets a 38% chance to 2HKO after leftovers on a 4 HP/0 Def Coba

 

[thesecondbest]

Garchomp and Clefable need to be in the same rank. Why? Well, let's see why Clefable is in S. It's one of the most splashable mons on balance. Its bulk is somewhat underwhelming, and yet it is in S. Sure, it greats great utility moves, but I think, especially because Metagross has fallen, it is apparent that Chomp is the new top dog. Metagross annihilated the old type of teams with Clef, Tran, Lando, and other stuff, but now, to quote OST finalist blunder, 'metagross is on the decline... he can just go to his helmet chomp, kill it, and get up rocks." This is why it dropped from A+ (part of it, although I disagred I can see that chomp destroys it). Check the latest usage stats, this thing is at a crisp 30% in the 1835 stats. It is just so versatile. Clef has like 3 sets, magic guard cm, unaware, and sr twave. But they all have similar spreads and two/three moves in common (moonblast, softboiled/moonlight, calm mind in some). Chomp actually has different sets. It can go draco fire blast to smash through teams (that set can even mega), it can be sr dragon tail, it can run rest or even rest talk, it can use fire blast on the fat sets too, it can abuse evasion and set up sds, it can be scarfed, and more. It's unequivocally better than Lando-T and, in my opinion, the new clefable. It has offensive presence too and cripples so much stuff with phasing and helmet. The only unfavoable meta trend is the prominence of weavile. I think it belongs in S. Thoughts?
And don't just say it was rejected earlier don't be stupid; I nommed ampharos to rise, AM rejected it, but the rest of the ranking team realized it was good. Make counterarguments, don't just say no.

 

[Karxrida]

Garchomp isn't S because it is easy to wear down due to lacking any recovery on its flagship set. It's a good glue mon because it's splashable but isn't meta-defining like Clefable. It just sits there tanking hits, damaging contact attackers, and not being that threatening.

 

[Flamer]

Can I just make something clear please?

I think often-times with the nominations to drop something we often don't realize that it isn't 1v6. It's 6v6. Whenever nominations are made to drop something I often see that same reasoning behind nearly every drop and it's because of weaknesses and not being able to beat a specific threat that hits them super-effectively. Team support is an actual thing. It's impossible for a singular Pokemon to cover every single bane to its existance. Sometimes its because of their speed, bulk, or simply because they don't have enough moveslots. That's where your other 20 moveslots come in handy. No Pokemon can perform efficiently unless their checks and counters are effectively removed and team support is the answer to formulating a Sweep. Like for real. People often follow the thought that if it's A / S Rank it requires no team support whatsoever but that isn't the case.

tl:dr Please don't suggest that something like Alakazam drops because it can't outrun and beat Weavile or Serperior drops because it can't Sweep since Mega Venusaur can wall it. You've got 20 other moveslots and 5 more Pokemon to choose from.

The viability of a mon is often based on how self sufficient it is. You could base an entire team around trying to make something like Malamar sweep but just because team support is avaliable, doesn't mean that any flaws in a mon can be completely discounted. Thats the entire reason why a mon like Mega Altaria is S while mons like Mega Sharpedo are B, higher ranked mons are generally less reliant on a team to do the work for them. If the support a mon requires is too much for it to be seriously considered worth your time to use, then it should have a lower viability, hence a drop nomination would be justified. Your whole point that people expect too much is actually the reverse of what happens. Too many people assume a mon should rise because its flaws can be mitigated by teammates, which explains all the shitty raise nominations that come up all too often.

 

[MikeDawg]

P.S. nominations are much more successful if you argue why it should move up or down rather than why it is a good or bad pokemon.

That is, a change in rank needs to be accompanied by a change in the metagame. For example, venusaur was a somewhat lacking choice in the bird spam meta. Once bird spam became less popular, venusaur became more viable. Change elicits change.

On the contrary, just saying "venusaur should move up. It is very bulky, it has a good typing, it checks a lot. Here's some calcs" doesn't address why venusaur is suddenly better (ie. bulkier, better typing, checks more in the context of the current meta) than it was prior, which is the argument that you are trying to pose in the first place.

 

[AM]

And don't just say it was rejected earlier don't be stupid; I nommed ampharos to rise, AM rejected it, but the rest of the ranking team realized it was good. Make counterarguments, don't just say no.

I rejected earlier cause the logic you used made my brain hurt. I could've, and did, ask ranking team for a better opinion on it in the long run. Don't just assume things -.-

Also what MikeDawg and Flamer said pretty much.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Yeah at this point Klefki should more or less be A seeing the overall utility it provides onto many teams that it fits on - balance and offense, mostly. You have Spikes support which benefits a lot of Pokemon such as Charizard and Kingdra in their sweeping, and hazard stacking is pretty cool in this metagame when you have good partners for Klefki such as Mega Sableye and Garchomp to cover its weaknesses / keep Spikes on the field / hazard stack alongside Klefki, Thunder Wave which is literally beautiful to beat fast sweepers such as Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X that will otherwise destroy your team. Godly typing as bludz mentioned a while ago for stuff like Ferrothorn, Mega Sableye, Hoopa-U, Mega Gardevoir, Lati@s, Weavile etc., while being able to set dual screens for sweepers and easy setup in general. One other thing that Klefki really benefits from is Magnet Rise, allowing it to turn the tables on Ground-types or Ground-type users such as Landorus-T, Mamoswine, and Mega Diancie. Just a really good mon and general and more or less deserves to rise to A.

Im gonig to nom gliscor for a drop to A-. Gliscor is honestly just outclassed right now at alot of what it does,it has severre competition as a wall/stallbreaker from things like hoopa u manaphy keldeo and even tyrantrum....In a metagame FILLED with powerful water types and weaviles running EVERYWHERE I just dont see how it can be on the same rank as things like mega charizard y and others in A rank.... Wallbreakers/stallbreakers are running EVERYWHERE right now and 99 percent of them steamroll through gliscor..... its typing was much better in x and y and the meta just hasn't been kind to gliscor its more on the level as something like volcarona than zard y.....it has some niches like forcing mega metagross to run ice punch to win a 1v1 against it but its become set up bait alot more now and im team preview I NEVER find myself worrying about gliscor....
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal (this is special d gliscor...)

Yeah Gliscor could potentially drop to A-, to me it's kinda borderline, but your reasons justifying a drop aren't the most convincing. First off, stallbreaker Gliscor fits on balance / stall builds, not offensive teams, which rules out the possibly of Hoopa-U and Tyrantrum outclassing it. Hoopa-U also doesn't outclass Gliscor lol when Gliscor has much better Defense as well as reliable recovery in Roost. Not all wallbreakers or stallbreakers outright beat Gliscor either, you have the likes of Gengar, Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye, Landorus-T, Heatran, Alakazam, Mega Alakazam, and Dragalge that Gliscor can deal very well with, alongside other Pokemon such as Assault Vest Tornadus-T and Clefable. Having Roost is a huge perk as it allows Gliscor to potentially stall out the likes of Latios (when using Draco Meteor). Water-types such as Keldeo being everywhere doesn't necessarily spell doom for Gliscor as it's definitely bulky enough to take at least one Scald. Swords Dance stallbreaker isn't the only set as well, you've got stuff like Taunt + Toxic that surprises Unaware Clefable, Breloom, Slowbro etc., physically defensive with Stealth Rock and U-turn to gain momentum, set vital entry hazards, and check Talonflame, Mega Lopunny, Excadrill, and Mega Metagross. Gliscor isn't really setup bait when not much wants to get their item Knocked Off or in turn set up and dealt a lot of damage to via Swords Dance + Earthquake or crippled by Taunt + Toxic. Nice finding a calc that doesn't really hold true when Tornadus-T mostly runs 180 Special Attack now and Gliscor runs 200 Special Defense, and many variants are Assault Vest which lose straight on to Gliscor.

180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 179-212 (50.8 - 60.2%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 135-160 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- 59% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

 

[teamsnickers]

I'd also like to point out to AllJokesAside that Azumarill isn't much of a Tyrantrum answer considering that it gets flat-out OHKO'd at +1 and can't even guarantee a 2HKO with Band AJ (But it will get it most of the time with a max roll of around 58%), and Thundy isn't that much of a concern on Lum Berry variants. Still, I would much rather have the band set most of the time as well, considering how while it can stomach priority, its not exactly hard to get prior damage off on it, and most scarfers can take it out although I haven't been seeing that item around that much anymore. The immediate power can punch holes through teams more easily with the right coverage move rather than needing fatter 'mons weakened.

Also, I don't find that Mega T-Tar outclasses DD Tyrantrum that hard really, considering that it takes up a mega slot and misses out on some vital KOs that it would need to run an Adamant nature for - which still doesn't guarantee them. On the contrary, DD Tyrantrum can afford to run a Jolly Nature and still get most 1HKOs, those being Azumarill, BandZor, can actually OHKO Keldeo at +1 with Outrage although that does have its own backlash, and has a somewhat easier time with Hippowdon and Chesnaught. Of course though, Mega Tyranitar is undoubtedly a better pokemon overall, but I wouldn't really say outclassed all that much.

Mega ttar has a 700 bst and AMAZING BULK.,..mega ttars biggest thing holding it back is its lackluster speed tier.... but it can tank legit everything thats not a 4k weakness also while tyrantrums head smash is REALLY powerful tyrantrum is also much weaker to priority than mega ttar, the mega vs no mega argument ain't the best since most mega ttar teams are made AROUND mega ttar because its unprepared for in this metagame and can catch alot of teams by surprise..... tyrantrum even after a ddance is just meh and choiced is by far its best set rn because it doesnt have the bulk to pull off a ddance with that meh speed mega ttar can also run ALOT more sets and moves while all tyrantrums pretty much run the same move and once you find out what item its holding the surprise is gone.. Tyrantrum is a extreme niche mon and while its not nessarcy bad, there's just better options for a ddancer.. Where tyrantrum gets the most usage is as a antimeta wallbreaker
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 240-284 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-172 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(of course tyrantrum wuld be running head smash this is just to show the power difference

 

[Flygonial]

Mega ttar has a 700 bst and AMAZING BULK.,..mega ttars biggest thing holding it back is its lackluster speed tier.... but it can tank legit everything thats not a 4k weakness also while tyrantrums head smash is REALLY powerful tyrantrum is also much weaker to priority than mega ttar, the mega vs no mega argument ain't the best since most mega ttar teams are made AROUND mega ttar because its unprepared for in this metagame and can catch alot of teams by surprise..... tyrantrum even after a ddance is just meh and choiced is by far its best set rn because it doesnt have the bulk to pull off a ddance with that meh speed mega ttar can also run ALOT more sets and moves while all tyrantrums pretty much run the same move and once you find out what item its holding the surprise is gone.. Tyrantrum is a extreme niche mon and while its not nessarcy bad, there's just better options for a ddancer.. Where tyrantrum gets the most usage is as a antimeta wallbreaker
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 240-284 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-172 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The point was that DD Tyrantrum is not completely outclassed by Mega Tyranitar for the role. Additionally, I did acknowledge that Mega T-Tar is better overall, and that you should probably be running band.

 

[procrastinat]

+1 252+ Atk Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-172 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What reason does Tyrantrum have to run Stone Edge? It should always be running Head Smash.

+1 252+ Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[teamsnickers]

The point was that DD Tyrantrum is not completely outclassed by Mega Tyranitar for the role. Additionally, I did acknowledge that Mega T-Tar is better overall, and that you should probably be running band.

Right but honestly dd Tyrantrum IS completely outclassed by mega ttar for that role... Mega ttar can literally set up on half the tier while tyrantrum is much harder to set up and once you do set it up its still weak af to priority... DD Tyrantrum compared to mega ttar is COMPLETE BOOTY, just because mega ttar is so good at setting up,



Anyway im going to make a nom for azumarill to S. Azumarill is honestly just stupid right now... Its a complete monster against two VERY POPULAR types of teams rn,dual weather and hippo Azumarill surprise factor is just a pain in the ass to deal with, the threat of bdrum is always something to watch out for and insome cases you can be so wery of it that you let a mon die so it doesnt get the chance to set up,AV is another great lure to tank hits from thundurus mega manectric (even thou mega manectric could be volting out) and even things like tornadus t....VERY FEW THINGS can come in on azumarills 4 attack sets(aqua jet waterfall play rough and spower)(mega venusaur,and amoonguss if it doesnt have ice pucnh....) and its water/fairy typing is just stupidly good.... While azumarills speed is terrible, it makes up for it with its superior defensive typing and priority.It can be forced out by things like serperior and other grass/electric types that outspeed it, but thats a minimal price to pay for the vast amount of things that lose to azumarill and its also one of the FEW answers to zard x in this meta.... Azumarill automatically gives your team a vast amount of momentum in most cases and is being vastly underrated in A+ rn

 

[Flygonial]

Right but honestly dd Tyrantrum IS completely outclassed by mega ttar for that role... Mega ttar can literally set up on half the tier while tyrantrum is much harder to set up and once you do set it up its still weak af to priority... DD Tyrantrum compared to mega ttar is COMPLETE BOOTY, just because mega ttar is so good at setting up,



Anyway im going to make a nom for azumarill to S. Azumarill is honestly just stupid right now... Its a complete monster against two VERY POPULAR types of teams rn,dual weather and hippo Azumarill surprise factor is just a pain in the ass to deal with, the threat of bdrum is always something to watch out for and insome cases you can be so wery of it that you let a mon die so it doesnt get the chance to set up,AV is another great lure to tank hits from thundurus mega manectric (even thou mega manectric could be volting out) and even things like tornadus t....VERY FEW THINGS can come in on azumarills 4 attack sets(aqua jet waterfall play rough and spower)(mega venusaur,and amoonguss if it doesnt have ice pucnh....) and its water/fairy typing is just stupidly good.... While azumarills speed is terrible, it makes up for it with its superior defensive typing and priority.It can be forced out by things like serperior and other grass/electric types that outspeed it, but thats a minimal price to pay for the vast amount of things that lose to azumarill and its also one of the FEW answers to zard x in this meta.... Azumarill automatically gives your team a vast amount of momentum in most cases and is being vastly underrated in A+ rn

DD Tyrantrum is not completely outclassed by Mega Tyranitar - that's an overstatement. Please refer back to my post about the things that DD Tyrantrum can do that T-Tar can't. Even then, Tyrantrum is not that weak to priority either, as very little priority even guarantees a OHKO on it, although prior damage does come sometimes, yeah. I agree that Mega Tyranitar is superior to DD Tyrantrum for the role but you're exaggerating. I have no comment on the Azu to S nomination as of now.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

I'm not particularly fond of DD Tyrantrum, but it does have significantly more power than DD Mega Tyranitar thanks to Head Smash, and that's assuming you don't run Life Orb, in which case the difference is massive. Then there's the fact that Ttar takes the Mega slot. I'd say Ttar is overall better due to its obscene bulk (particularly on the special side), but it doesn't straight outclass Trum.

 

[Dread Arceus]

S Rank

one of these things is not like the others~
one of these things just doesn't belong~
seriously though, in a meta where you have to pack multiple checks/counters just to beat Mega Altaria, I can not conceive how anybody still think Clefable is a mon that can sweep with barely any support. I've actually switched to using Sylveon on a couple more aggressive teams, simply because Clef's "CM and win" antics don't really happen anymore. Yes, it can run lure sets still, but then they become...well, lure sets. Gengar can run lure sets, Gyarados can run lure sets, Lando-T can run lure sets; MMeta, Bisharp, Azumarill, Garchomp...basically anything with a solid movepool can. While you can say that, "well it has a moveslot open for this though!", that's not really true, given that, again, the meta is so much better prepared against it right now, and it really needs something to hit Steel-types to be effective at all.

tl;dr: Clefable to A+. It's just not as big of a threat in this meta anymore.

 

[GlassVeins]

S Rank

one of these things is not like the others~
one of these things just doesn't belong~
seriously though, in a meta where you have to pack multiple checks/counters just to beat Mega Altaria, I can not conceive how anybody still think Clefable is a mon that can sweep with barely any support. I've actually switched to using Sylveon on a couple more aggressive teams, simply because Clef's "CM and win" antics don't really happen anymore. Yes, it can run lure sets still, but then they become...well, lure sets. Gengar can run lure sets, Gyarados can run lure sets, Lando-T can run lure sets; MMeta, Bisharp, Azumarill, Garchomp...basically anything with a solid movepool can. While you can say that, "well it has a moveslot open for this though!", that's not really true, given that, again, the meta is so much better prepared against it right now, and it really needs something to hit Steel-types to be effective at all.

tl;dr: Clefable to A+. It's just not as big of a threat in this meta anymore.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Clef isn't S because of just its CM set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and two amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

 

[Dread Arceus]

I'm not its biggest fan, but Clef isn't S because of just its CM set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and two amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Garchomp isn't S because of just its SD set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and two amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Heatran isn't S because of just its Specs set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Landorus-T isn't S because of just its double dance set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

Are you catching my drift here? What makes Clefable so special over the other A+ ranks? It has utility, but not an unprecedented amount. It has a sweeping set, but it's not the best. Its abilities and typing are pretty nice, but that's everything in A+ rank bar Keldeo and Hoopa-U. I just don't see how it stands out amongst other mons, and it looks pretty ridiculous, especially when it's sitting in the same rank as a mon that would flat outclass it it if it had SR.

 

[Taliheim]

I'll have to agree with Dread here. The reasoning I haven't posted in a while is because most of my biases versus the viability rankings are more feelings than anything else, which I know will just be shot down without any evidence to support it. But I can say that Clefable seems to me to be more of an A+ Pokemon than an S Pokemon. Keep in mind that A+ is still extremely strong, and that we're saying "clefable's worse", not "clefable sucks".

I'll need to relearn the current metagame before I can make any meaningful posts of my own, though.

 

[Wuhu]

I'm not its biggest fan, but Garchomp isn't S because of just its SD set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and two amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Heatran isn't S because of just its Specs set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Landorus-T isn't S because of just its double dance set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

Are you catching my drift here? What makes Clefable so special over the other A+ ranks? It has utility, but not an unprecedented amount. It has a sweeping set, but it's not the best. Its abilities and typing are pretty nice, but that's everything in A+ rank bar Keldeo and Hoopa-U. I just don't see how it stands out amongst other mons, and it looks pretty ridiculous, especially when it's sitting in the same rank as a mon that would flat outclass it it if it had SR.

Well I mean they don't have the greatest movepool ever. Clefable has all it needs to be a great support mon: TWave, Wish, Softboiled, Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, Toxic, Knock Off, etc. What does Landorus have? Stealth Rock. What does Garchomp have? Stealth Rock + recoil, and maybe Toxic. What does Heatran have? SR + Toxic. I just don't think the degree of support they give is as good as Clefable when it has more support options.

And that's not all. Out of all the mons you mentioned, none of them have reliable recovery. Garchomp will eventually die. Landorus will eventually die. Heatran will eventually die. Clefable? Just give it any of Moonlight, Softboiled, or Wish and it's set. It's able to stick around for much longer, and it's helped with immunity to weather, entry hazards, and two forms of status thanks to Magic Guard.

But wait, there's more! Clefable's movepool not only lets it support its team and stick around for longer to keep supporting, it can use these moves to BS past it's checks. Even though the pokemon you mentioned have "great" typing, they all get destroyed by common moves. Lando+Garchomp? Ice Beam, Icicle Crash, Scald, Hydro Pump, Ice Shard, Surf, Waterfall, Hyper Voice, Outrage, etc. Heatran? Any Water, Ground, or Fighting move will do. Clefable? It's only weak to two types, both of which are seldom used offensively except on Metagross, Scizor, and Gengar. And two of those pokemon are highly susceptible to TWave, a move which Clefable commonly carries. You can argue that Heatran has Power Herb Solar Beam and Landorus has Smack Down, but how well do those work? Landorus has to give up a powerful or utility move to run Smack Down, and usually is also forced to run SD for the wallbreaking power, and Heatran's Solar Beam is a one-time use. Clefable? Not only can it TWave its own threats multiple times, it can TWave threats to its teammates as well, all while healing itself up. A paralyzed Metagross won't be doing much anymore. Neither is a paralyzed Gengar. Neither is a paralyzed Charizard. Neither is a paralyzed Tornadus. Neither is a paralyzed Hoopa. Neither is a paralyzed Weavile.

I'm not saying that Heatran, Garchomp, and Landorus are bad at supporting. But I am saying that Clefable does it better with more support options and reliable recovery. This is what IMO sets it above the other support mons in OU, making it a cancerous S in my eyes.

 

[Sliver25]

S Rank

one of these things is not like the others~
one of these things just doesn't belong~
seriously though, in a meta where you have to pack multiple checks/counters just to beat Mega Altaria, I can not conceive how anybody still think Clefable is a mon that can sweep with barely any support. I've actually switched to using Sylveon on a couple more aggressive teams, simply because Clef's "CM and win" antics don't really happen anymore. Yes, it can run lure sets still, but then they become...well, lure sets. Gengar can run lure sets, Gyarados can run lure sets, Lando-T can run lure sets; MMeta, Bisharp, Azumarill, Garchomp...basically anything with a solid movepool can. While you can say that, "well it has a moveslot open for this though!", that's not really true, given that, again, the meta is so much better prepared against it right now, and it really needs something to hit Steel-types to be effective at all.

tl;dr: Clefable to A+. It's just not as big of a threat in this meta anymore.

. There is just no way clefable is dropping anytime soon it fits in S as a support with two abilities that give it no reliable counters since one prevents passive damage and the other stops boosts from having an effect on it these two abilities are both perfectly viable and either can be used to make it better than any other supporter in the tier keeping that in mind it also makes so you can't boost to kill it or you can't wear it down making any boost way to easy for it as you have to waist a turn checking to see what it's ability is by status ailment or by trying to hit it with a boost if anything it is more dangerous than charizard x and altaria though it really shouldn't be compared with either since they perform completely different roles

 

[Dread Arceus]

Well I mean they don't have the greatest movepool ever. Clefable has all it needs to be a great support mon: TWave, Wish, Softboiled, Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, Toxic etc. What does Landorus have? Stealth Rock. What does Garchomp have? Stealth Rock + recoil, and maybe Toxic. What does Heatran have? SR + Toxic. I just don't think the degree of support they give is as good as Clefable when it has more support options.

And that's not all. Out of all the mons you mentioned, none of them have reliable recovery. Garchomp will eventually die. Landorus will eventually die. Heatran will eventually die. Clefable? Just give it any of Moonlight, Softboiled, or Wish and it's set. It's able to stick around for much longer, and it's helped with immunity to weather, entry hazards, and two forms of status.

But wait, there's more! Clefable's movepool not only lets it support its team and stick around for longer to keep supporting, it can use these moves to BS past it's checks. Even though the pokemon you mentioned have "great" typing, they all get destroyed by common moves. Lando+Garchomp? Ice Beam, Icicle Crash, Scald, Hydro Pump, Ice Shard, Surf, Waterfall, Hyper Voice, Outrage, etc. Heatran? Any Water, Ground, or Fighting move will do. Clefable? It's only weak to two types, both of which are seldom used offensively except on Metagross, Scizor, and Gengar. And two of those pokemon are highly susceptible to TWave, a move which Clefable commonly carries. You can argue that Heatran has Power Herb Solar Beam and Landorus has Smack Down, but how well do those work? Landorus has to give up a powerful or utility move to run Smack Down, and usually is also forced to run SD for the wallbreaking power, and Heatran's Solar Beam is a one-time use. Clefable? Not only can it TWave its own threats multiple times, it can TWave threats to its teammates as well, all while healing itself up. A paralyzed Metagross won't be doing much anymore. Neither is a paralyzed Gengar. Neither is a paralyzed Charizard. Neither is a paralyzed Tornadus. Neither is a paralyzed Hoopa. Neither is a paralyzed Weavile.

I'm not saying your mons are bad at supporting. But I am saying that Clefable does it better with more support options and reliable recovery. This is what IMO sets it above the other support mons in OU, making it a cancerous S in my eyes.

So your argument is literally just that Clefable has Twave. You also argue about "limited movepool" of others, but I mean almost every A+ rank mon has a vast movepool. You also forget like half the shit the example mons have, Landorus-T having access to U-turn, Garchomp having access to Dragon Tail and a massive offensive movepool, and Heatran having Magma Storm, Torment, Taunt, Substitute, and a pretty significant offensive movepool. Being able to heal oneself while being support isn't uncommon either - Latios, Manaphy, Mega Sableye, and Talonflame can all do it.
As far as "BSing by it's checks", that's at least half the shit in A+. The argument that "other pokemon have weaknesses" is pretty dumb, and "uncommon offensive types" isn't true at all-they're mandatory offensive types if you want a ghost of a chance against Mega Altaria. Bisharp, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Magnezone, MMetagross, Scizor, Gengar, Mega Venusaur, Skarmory, and Talonflame can all beat it, so I'm just gonna go ahead and ignore the fact you cherry picked only 3 checks to artificially reinforce your argument. Many of these don't mind being thunder wave'd-and no, you're not getting Fire Blasted if the moveset is Twave/SR/Softboiled/Moonblast.

 

[Reisuke]

I'm not its biggest fan, but Garchomp isn't S because of just its SD set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and [/B]two amazing[/B] abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Heatran isn't S because of just its Specs set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Landorus-T isn't S because of just its double dance set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

Are you catching my drift here? What makes Clefable so special over the other A+ ranks? It has utility, but not an unprecedented amount. It has a sweeping set, but it's not the best. Its abilities and typing are pretty nice, but that's everything in A+ rank bar Keldeo and Hoopa-U. I just don't see how it stands out amongst other mons, and it looks pretty ridiculous, especially when it's sitting in the same rank as a mon that would flat outclass it it if it had SR.

1. You're mostly basing your statement on mons with more offensive presence and less support options then clef. That's something you shouldn't.
2. Clef is unpredictable, has a wide movepool, splashable in every concept of the word. that's what many pokemon in the A+ mons can only dream of. It even has SR and you literally state "IF they had SR" but that's not the case.
3. Clef has a sweeping set. Yes it's not the best but it's used as a wincon. Something you're probably gonna use late game when all it's checks and counters are gone. And magic guard even prevents passive damage from hurting it and makes the job even easier to pull of.

 

[Dread Arceus]

1. You're mostly basing your statement on mons with more offensive presence and less support options then clef. That's something you shouldn't.
2. Clef is unpredictable, has a wide movepool, splashable in every concept of the word (ok it doesn't have splash but who cares). that's what many pokemon in the A+ mons can only dream of. It even has SR and you literally state "IF they had SR" but that's not the case.
3. Clef has a sweeping set. Yes it's not the best but it's used as a wincon. Something you're probably gonna use late game when all it's checks and counters are gone. And magic guard even prevents passive damage from hurting it and makes the job even easier to pull of.

I'm basing my argument around mons that have the utility of being both support and offensive, much like-you guessed it-clefable.
Clefable is unpredictable-just like literally every other mon in A+. The only things that really keep a consistent moveset on there are Mega Scizor, Mega Gyarados, and Excadrill, and even they have some play to their sets. It just sounds like an A+ rank mon. It's not even that splashable anymore; it barely beats MLop and MAlt (and doesn't beat special set at all), and when I think "Support mon that can beat MLop and DD MAlt [and Charizard X] while setting rocks" the best solution just comes to Hippowdon as it's much more consistent. As far as a sweeping set, again, it's not exactly catching anybody off guard these days and is pretty mediocre. MAlaria, Exca, Tran, Lando-T, Sableye, Talonflame, and Thundurus can all provide a sweeping set while giving utility (albeit a gimmicky one on tran), and they're generally less prepared for - or, at least, not a must on pretty much every team.

 

[Reisuke]

I'm basing my argument around mons that have the utility of being both support and offensive, much like-you guessed it-clefable.
Clefable is unpredictable-just like literally every other mon in A+. The only things that really keep a consistent moveset on there are Mega Scizor, Mega Gyarados, and Excadrill, and even they have some play to their sets. It just sounds like an A+ rank mon. It's not even that splashable anymore; it barely beats MLop and MAlt (and doesn't beat special set at all), and when I think "Support mon that can beat MLop and DD MAlt [and Charizard X] while setting rocks" the best solution just comes to Hippowdon as it's much more consistent. As far as a sweeping set, again, it's not exactly catching anybody off guard these days and is pretty mediocre. MAlaria, Exca, Tran, Lando-T, Sableye, Talonflame, and Thundurus can all provide a sweeping set while giving utility (albeit a gimmicky one on tran), and they're generally less prepared for - or, at least, not a must on pretty much every team.

Well what does clef make different?
Clef has;
-2 great abilities
-a great movepool
-offensive and defensive capabilities

What do they have;
-most of time 1 great ability
-either less defensive capabilities or offensive capabilities
-less support options or less offensive options

Clef gives you what tran and thundy (partly) would do in one slot, clef spreads para and sets rocks. She even has relaible recovery for repeating the job throughout the match. She can act as a cleric or a wincon (yeah Malt can do both in one slot but at what cost?) and in both jobs she excels mainly due to her abilities and decent bulk while clef can't beat mega lop or others you can combine multiply roles in ONE mon. And the slots that are availble can now be used for other purposes and there is gonna be a team mate who can do that.

This has been said before. Pokemon is 6v6 not 1v6