The only real problem here is that somehow a mon who missed being banned by a hair is now somehow only A+ worthy after a few adaptions on mons that always were solid stops to it in the past.
the evolution of the metagame to the state that it is in now why metagross isnt nearly as effective as it used to be back when it was suspected. i already (albeit briefly) explained this above but when metagross was suspected, hippo was still uu, tankchomp didnt exist, and fat cores consisting of ferro, sd gliscor, and slowbro were literally everywhere. see early spl for reference. metagross ate these teams up for breakfast because at that point in time it only needed 4 moveslots to cover everything. such is not the case anymore. the rise in usage of the mons i listed above means that metagross is unable to plow through teams anymore. its simply just the progression of the metagame, and the metagme is right now less favorable to metagross.
You make it seem like mega scizor was just released, that mon has been used since XY so this isn't new.
no, but what is new is its recent rise in usage. its a lot more prominent now than before because recent metagame trends favor it. examples include the rise of weavile and dd mega altaria becoming the number one set (so basically stuff that scizor eats for breakfast). it always existed but now its used more than before.
hippo balance means nothing when metagross carries grass knot.
hippo balance is a general term i use. one of the most standard and effective defensive cores right now consists of hippo + spdef skarm, in which metagross needs both thunder punch AND grass knot in order to break it.
for reference, when i say hippo balance, i mean teams that are defined as balance teams that use hippo. its a catch all term that defines many, many teams. i mention it because grass knot is needed on metagross to break hippo. otherwise, hippo balance teams (usually) automatically beat it bar hax / poor playing.
skarmory is a 2hko by thunder punch and pretty much needs counter to beat it 1v1 or otherwise must phaze it out with whirlwind which really is just delaying the inevitable rather than actually dealing with it.
counter is a good option on skarm. thunder punch is a nice move but metagross rarely carries it, and if skarmory is physically defensive, its barely 2HKOed depending on rolls. regarding whirlwind, dont forget that in an actual game skarmory will be setting up spikes and it will not allow itself to be killed by hammer arm. ive played and seen plenty of games where skarmory stacks spikes, then whirlwinds metagross out before it can get the SE hammer arm hit off, then switch out. skarm then comes in later vs. something else it walls and recovers its health.
rocky helmet is also a viable option that wear metagross down significantly.
Jirachi doesn't do anything back realistically other than para it and start flinching it and go behind a sub which more so cripples it than actually stopping it, and can get bopped by EQ.
a crippled metagross is eons easier to handle than a healthy one. paralyzing metagross and getting up a sub/whittling it down is a win for rachi and loss for gross. eq is cute but rarely run.
All you really are saying is that atm megagross isn't as good at sweeping the meta as zard x and mega alt are which is true except those need to be given a setup turn and have lower immediate speed tiers. Char x has the explotiable SR weakness and flare blitz recoil. Mega altaria also appreciates running roost over a ddance 3 attacks set which is still stopped by mega venu and some talon flame sets if rocks arent up. Then it has to choose between EQ and fire blast which can leave it walled by a few things such as that mega scizor hype train, ferro, heatran , jirachi , ironically many of the same mons that can give gross trouble, so this stops this 4mss argument that came out of who knows where for dropping gross, or we should start dropping mega alt too by this logic.
i think we're at a misunderstanding here. metagross is a wallbreaker, and i will stand by that fact throughout all my posts. altaria and char x are sweepers. they are all s ranks for the roles they perform. metagross is a less effective wallbreaker than char x/malt are sweepers. therefore, i do not believe having metagross in s rank is fair to the other two s megas because they are overall more effective at their roles. i was not directly comparing them; i simply said that they were able to beat gross after a boost. i probably wasnt as clear as i wanted to be when saying that but thats what i get for typing the whole thing in between doing other stuff.
basically, i believe that malt and char x are better mons than gross, and i do not feel gross has enough redeeming qualities to be compared to them in terms of being s rank. as such i believe a drop is warranted.
You say keeping it in S overrates its abilities but somehow putting it in A + with mega scizor isn't underrating it? I mean the last argument from a post earlier i saw for dropping gross from S was bulky chomp , so by extension we should drop mega scizor from A + to A because it cant even lure it out chomp like gross can with ice punch.
yes, i believe s rank is overrating metagross's abilities. therefore i do not believe a+ rank is underrating it. it would simply be one of the better mons in a+. i said that tank chomp
and everything else i mentioned are reasons to drop gross. scizor really isnt very comparable to gross for a multitude of reasons. really, the only similarities they share is access to bullet punch and a steel typing. they play completely differently both in practice and in theory.
gross using ice punch means its not carrying grass knot or hammer arm. a fair trade off, but a trade off nonetheless.
Weavile cant even beat megagross 1v1, Zam cant beat 1v1, and tornadus surely cant do so either so these are non- factors since while they all can damage gross they all either get ohkoed 2hkoed in the process by an appropriate move and sure as hell cant switch into it.
they dont have to beat it 1v1. they keep metagross out, and they revenge kill metagross after a teammate has weakened it down to about 70%. keep in mind that they all 2HKO metagross with knock off / shadow ball / heat wave respectively, and they all outspeed metagross. torn t can even switch in if its healthy enough.
Klefki is an annoyance yea except it can also annoy zard x and mega alt as well with prankster wave.
not only that, but the spikes it lays down means metagross is being punished every time it switches in. this residual damage on top of these fast attackers with super effective moves is why metagross is less effective against offense. both zard x and malt have roost, which lets them offset that damage, and they also have ways of sweeping offense with dd. metagross does not.
You say megagross doesn't get a free turn on clefable yes as it gets paralyzed, same can be said about char y, talon flame, and mega scizor who otherwise would appreciate the free turn clefable gives them. Clefable is Also S rank for a reason in that it more less cripples all switchins between t wave and fire coverage , so this annoyance isn't even exclusive to gross.
clefable spams t wave whenever its given a free turn. if gross gets hit on the switch with it, then its crippled. sure, it has a free turn, but clefable is always paired with something that can take on metagross, such as hippo. hippo also outspeeds a paralyzed metagross and wins 1v1, grass knot or not.
[quoteAll you have proven is that gross possibly doesn't deserve a ban, but this does not equal a drop from S rank.[/quote]
i guess this is a start but i honestly feel a lot of people still resent gross because they were vehemently pro ban on it and it barely escaped, but there are also people who have gotten over this and realize that metagross simply isnt as effective anymore, and that its no longer the go-to mega because of recent metagame trends. all i can say is that ive presented my case and urge people to look at this discussion with an open mind, rather than dwell on the past and how it used to perform.
