Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Grim]

I'm not sure about defending Rhyperior's drop, I think it should drop too, but here's a neat thing about Rhyperior.
+4 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 354-417 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It completely destroys Mega Charizard X. That thing is +4 and it lives and kills it with Earthquake. Hell, there's no way anyone's gonna let a Charizard get away with even a +2 Dragon Dance, it's more for comparison.
That's all I really wanted to say. It's a Zard X check. Nice.

Dragon Claw actually does more than Earthquake because of Solid Rock, so the actual calc looks like this:

+4 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 375-442 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Still a solid answer though, especially since Zard X is usually Jolly. No opinion on where it should go.

 

[Flarowak]

Dragon Claw actually does more than Earthquake because of Solid Rock, so the actual calc looks like this:

+4 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 375-442 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Still a solid answer though, especially since Zard X is usually Jolly. No opinion on where it should go.

When did zard x start running jolly? I almost always see adamant.

 

[Kurona]

When did zard x start running jolly? I almost always see adamant.

Jolly started being run to outspeed jolly scarf lando-T, which was - or still is - extremely common.

I find Rhyperior to be a very good option to consider on teams that are weak to Talonflame and Charx regardless; something that makes it worth considering for this role over, say, Slowbro or Rotom-W (hahaha I don't actually know if they check Talon/Charx my mind is fuck right now) is that Rhyperior can also be your rock setter and cause a lot of damage; so even if it's not against Talon or Charx it's still doing some damn good work. Hell, it's not as if they're the only physical attackers it checks. I think it should stay in B- due to the fact that it's easy to consider for burd/charx weak teams without compromising your team too much. I can't see it on the level of consideration as a C+ or lower Pokémon.

 

[jzplr]

When did zard x start running jolly? I almost always see adamant.

Well, it's what the calculator gave me. It wasn't really an actual calc, more of a comparison. :P

 

[Aragorn the King]

When did zard x start running jolly? I almost always see adamant.

It tends to run Jolly now to outspeed Scarf Lando-T. Adamant is still viable, however, if you have alternate answers to Lando and/or would prefer the power.

Anyway, I'll quote / slightly edit one of my old posts on why I think Rhyperior should stay B- in my opinion.

I don't agree with dropping Rhyperior. By virtue of its massive bulk, solid typing, Solid Rock ability, and movepool, it's able to fill a lot of roles for defensive teams. First, yes, all-out birdspam is on the decline. However, solo SD Talonflame is on the rise, and while many of CB Talonflame's checks cannot handle the SD set, Rhyperior still handles it impeccably. Second, again, while Mega Pinsir is on the decline, it's still a big threat, and Rhyperior is a great check to it. Additionally, Rhyperior is able to check other threatening Pokemon in the tier such as Mega Manectric, Superpower Tornadus-T, Mega Beedrill, and Raikou. However, I think the most important reason I still consider Rhyperior a B ranked threat is how well it handles Mega Charizard X, which, like firehusky said, is very hard to 100% counter. Rhyperior may not check any of the S ranked threats, but it's still capable of handling a unique array of hard-to-check, while simultaneously acting as a reliable Stealth Rock setter, and I don't think a drop to C+ is right.

 

[pika pal]

I don't think Rhyperior deserves to drop to C+. Being such an outright sturdy physical tank is a nice asset, and while it's not the best defensively, STAB EdgeQuake really helps his damage output. Being able to check virtually every Physically oriented sweeper bar a few like BD Azumarill helps, and he's one of the only mons I've seen that beats Zard-X regardless of set.

The reason though that I think Rhyperior should stay in B- is because of the difference in how I at least perceive the ranks. C-Rank is reserved for Pokemon that "require significant support to be effective" and face extreme competition. Rhyperior might qualify for the latter because of mons like Hippowdon, but the former doesn't stick with me. Rhyperior isn't a niche tank stopping specific mons for teams like Doublade was in Post-Aegi XY. You'd probably use him to check Talon and Zard-X, but he's still perfectly serviceable thanks to decent coverage and high physical bulk even outside that role.

C-Rank mons are Pokemon I think of that, while they can contribute, you have to build around them to get the most out of them. They limit your teams options to bring a very specific set of traits over their competition.

B-Rank Pokemon, while not centralizing or the immediate first choice for a role, offer enough that I don't feel like using them inherently compromises your team just for choosing them. Rhyperior over Hippowdon might cost you the latter's longevity and mixed bulk for a sturdier Physical tank, but Rhyperior can still put in work even if his greater bulk isn't needed in every match.

 

[yuruuu]

I would like to nominate Jellicent for C+ rank.

As quoted by Escarlata:
After this metagame shift, Ghost and Dark type attacks are much less that it previously did. But more importantly, there is a huge rise in the threats that Jellicent beat. In a metagame dominated by sand, Jellicent beats a lot of common stuff on sand teams if played well. Support Ttar only hits for 27 - 32.2% with a burned Crunch, Ferrothorn without Power Whip loses to the combination of Taunt and burns, Keldeo get hard countered unless it has Specs HP Electric, Excadril and Landorus-T don't like getting WoWed after their first hit, and after being burned you lose the ability to 2HKO.

On defensive teams, Jellicent fares really well against the Medicham and Heracross, both of which failing to 2HKO Jellicent reliably and getting WoWed in return. Cursed Body is a really handy ability to screw with Heracross, who has a 83.193% chance of getting his Rock Blast disabled (which is higher than the chance Stone Edge hits). Against other common stuff like Clefable and Suicune that screw with stall, Jellicent has a handy access to Taunt to shut down their set up and recovery. With Water Absorb, Jellicent makes a perfect counter for CroCune. Access to WoW+Taunt+Recover also meant it can serve as a makeshift Mew to break down other stall teams with ease.

Other than said niches, Jellicent is one of the few spinblockers that can block standard Starmie (since standard uses Psyshock > Tbolt). Burned AV Azumarill can barely 4HKO. Gyarados find it decently hard to get past Jellicent without being crippled in one way or another. Jellicent can even survive the 2HKO from Lati@s with zero investment. Walling a big part of rain offense is also really cool to have.

Most of this information is still true. Jellicent also beats Landorus-I, which is huge in itself, especialyl considering how much use it has gotten. It can also sort of stall-break with Taunt.

 

[Alfalfa]

I would like to nominate Jellicent for C+ rank.

As quoted by Escarlata:
After this metagame shift, Ghost and Dark type attacks are much less that it previously did. But more importantly, there is a huge rise in the threats that Jellicent beat. In a metagame dominated by sand, Jellicent beats a lot of common stuff on sand teams if played well. Support Ttar only hits for 27 - 32.2% with a burned Crunch, Ferrothorn without Power Whip loses to the combination of Taunt and burns, Keldeo get hard countered unless it has Specs HP Electric, Excadril and Landorus-T don't like getting WoWed after their first hit, and after being burned you lose the ability to 2HKO.

On defensive teams, Jellicent fares really well against the Medicham and Heracross, both of which failing to 2HKO Jellicent reliably and getting WoWed in return. Cursed Body is a really handy ability to screw with Heracross, who has a 83.193% chance of getting his Rock Blast disabled (which is higher than the chance Stone Edge hits). Against other common stuff like Clefable and Suicune that screw with stall, Jellicent has a handy access to Taunt to shut down their set up and recovery. With Water Absorb, Jellicent makes a perfect counter for CroCune. Access to WoW+Taunt+Recover also meant it can serve as a makeshift Mew to break down other stall teams with ease.

Other than said niches, Jellicent is one of the few spinblockers that can block standard Starmie (since standard uses Psyshock > Tbolt). Burned AV Azumarill can barely 4HKO. Gyarados find it decently hard to get past Jellicent without being crippled in one way or another. Jellicent can even survive the 2HKO from Lati@s with zero investment. Walling a big part of rain offense is also really cool to have.

Most of this information is still true. Jellicent also beats Landorus-I, which is huge in itself, especialyl considering how much use it has gotten. It can also sort of stall-break with Taunt.

Jelicent beats Landorus-I one-on-one, but Landorus can win if Jellicent tries to switch in on it. In addition, Medicham and Heracross have declined in usage due to metagame shifts calling for a different list of wallbreakers, such as Kyurem-B and LO Gengar. Your statement with regular Gyarados is true, but Mega Gyarados is more common than its non-Mega counterpart and can get past Jellicent easily with Substitute + Crunch. You state that Excadrill and Landorus-T dislike Jellicent, but Jellicent is not a reliable switch-in to either of them, as Jellicent dislikes taking both Earthquake and Knock Off from Landorus-T, and Life Orb + Swords Dance Excadrill runs right over Jellicent. Being able to spin-block Starmie as well as being able to stop Keldeo and Mega Slowbro lacking Psyshock is nice, that that alone is not worth C+ in a metagame where a growing trend in bulkier teams encourages the use of powerful wallbreakers like Kyurem-B, Landorus, LO Gengar, and Zard Y, which is not a trend that is favorable towards Jellicent due to its average bulk for a defensive Pokemon. Jellicent's traits and capabilities at most are not worth anything above C Rank, though if it is ranked, it should start at D or C- Rank for now.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Hmm... I must of really underestimated its physical bulk.

I guess C+ isnt the brightest rank for it. It still has a few things here and there, with a good niche that is Solid Rock. We can probably come to agreements that Hippo can probably do his job better. Faster, has recovery, and can do the same job as Rhyperior (albeit being a little harder to check things.)

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.7 - 60%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Stone edge doesnt KO, but with recoil it does.)

All in all, Hippo probably does Rhyperior's job better as a wall, but with the Solid Rock ability and SD/RP, i guess it has enough to stay where it is. I'm not gonna make an essay about it, but i guess i agree.

 

[Flarowak]

Fair enough on jolly zard x, makes sense. Can see why you would want to outspeed lando-t, thing is a beast. I have to say that I agree with the Rhyperior drop. It's number one niche in the meta isn't even as useful due to the drop in birdspam. Although it's still great for dealing with said birdspam if you need something for it. Having trouble against pinsir or talonflame, he'd be at the top of my list of reccomendations. However, one thing I've noticed that is becoming popular that is making life hell for it...grass. Water is already relevant, but now I'm starting to see things like serperior, belly drum salac chesnaught, celebi is picking up a lot of steam, venusaur is getting big again too. Rhyperior pretty much always just has to switch out on these mons or he dies. So basically I don't think it's his lack of a niche, but his awful defensive typing that warrants his drop. As for Jellicent I can't say much. I haven't seen it at all, and I'm 1600+ atm so idk.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

nominating Blissey to be raised from C- to B (one rank below chansey)

LOOOOOOOOOL wtf is this doing so low?? its in the same rank as shit like noivern, zygarde, mega aggron, and ditto....

Blissey is incredibly useful and it is not completely outclassed by Chansey; in fact lately I've been stopping using Chansey on all my stall teams completely and replaced them with Blissey or another pokemon. Outside of stopping both Gengar, Rotom-W, and Landorus, which Chansey can't, Blissey also has the perk of not being worn down nearly as fast as Chansey.
When you're facing a good player who knows what they're doing and they know how to predict well, what usually will happen is this: they will set up SR, then go to their special attacker and bait your chansey to come in while they double switch to a physical attacker such as mega gallade, forcing you to switch and take 12% SR damage for nothing. they repeat this process again and again until your chansey becomes too weakened to deal with their special attacker, lets say LO thundurus with focus blast or something. with blissey, you no longer have to worry about this problem. You go to blissey on their special attacker while they double switch to a physical attacker, and get 6% from leftovers. then next turn you use protect, and get another 6%, recovering all the HP you have lost from SR. this is HUGE. chansey gets worn down super easily from burns and hazards, blissey with leftovers does not. quite frankly, with the general residual damage of ORAS atm and hazards, as well as the popularity of gengar and landorus atm, i'd even say blissey fares better in ORAS atm than chansey, but im just nominating it to one subrank below chansey right now because blissey atm is ranked all the way down in C- for god knows what reason rofl

 

[quagback2qc]

I would like to nomiate Skarmory for A- rank

Obviously, it still carries it's place as one of the premier Phys walls in the tier, being able to tank ridiculous hits. It can wall Megagross, as well as most of the other phys attackers in the tier. It has access to defog and taunt, allowing it to be a great support mon. It has access to counter to deal sufficient damage back as well.

All of this was enough to put it where it currently is, in B+ rank.

Now, what has changed since then? The drop in usage of Magnezone, and the release of the Custap Berry. As far as Magnezone goes, it removed skarmory by trapping it and allowing phys attackers to sweep. The Skarm users were forced to use a Shed Shell to escape Magnezone, seriously decreasing Skarmory's viability and not allowing it to use a better item, like Lefties or Rocky Helmet to punish U-turn users.

As far as the Custap Berry goes, Skarm has become one of the best suicide leads in the tier. This is due to Sturdy, high defense stats, and access to SR and Spikes. Because of these, Skarm is guaranteed to get up two layers of hazards. It can even run Iron Head to deal with Mega Diancie as a lead. It can also taunt slower leads.

tl;dr
-Great Phys Wall
-Good Support moves in Taunt, Defog, Whirlwind
-Decline in usage of Magnezone
-Custap Lead Set (Two Layers of Hazards)

 

[Snowy]

nominating Blissey to be raised from C- to B (one rank below chansey)

LOOOOOOOOOL wtf is this doing so low?? its in the same rank as shit like noivern, zygarde, mega aggron, and ditto....

Blissey is incredibly useful and it is not completely outclassed by Chansey; in fact lately I've been stopping using Chansey on all my stall teams completely and replaced them with Blissey or another pokemon. Outside of stopping both Gengar, Rotom-W, and Landorus, which Chansey can't, Blissey also has the perk of not being worn down nearly as fast as Chansey.
When you're facing a good player who knows what they're doing and they know how to predict well, what usually will happen is this: they will set up SR, then go to their special attacker and bait your chansey to come in while they double switch to a physical attacker such as mega gallade, forcing you to switch and take 12% SR damage for nothing. they repeat this process again and again until your chansey becomes too weakened to deal with their special attacker, lets say LO thundurus with focus blast or something. with blissey, you no longer have to worry about this problem. You go to blissey on their special attacker while they double switch to a physical attacker, and get 6% from leftovers. then next turn you use protect, and get another 6%, recovering all the HP you have lost from SR. this is HUGE. chansey gets worn down super easily from burns and hazards, blissey with leftovers does not. quite frankly, with the general residual damage of ORAS atm and hazards, as well as the popularity of gengar and landorus atm, i'd even say blissey fares better in ORAS atm than chansey, but im just nominating it to one subrank below chansey right now because blissey atm is ranked all the way down in C- for god knows what reason rofl

These are really solid and valid points and the jump to "B rank" is very reasonable. I think something that was left out though, was that the only real perk that Chansey has over Blissey is the added defenses gained from Eviolite, in saying that this perk may put Chansey at a high level, but with most teams carrying at least one knock off user this addition can be taken away which would reduces Chansey to a form well bellow that of Blissey. On the other hand Blissey does not suffer from this problem as it loses no stat prowess from being knocked off, therefore making it a more reliable and dependable pokemon to use on your teams.

Due to these reasons I would also like to nominate Blissey for B rank

 

[Force Majeure]

In addition to what WCAR said, there's quite a bit more sandstorm around as Hippowdon and T-Tar have gotten better. Even though Blissey/Chansey are going to switch out anyway, there's still the switch-in turn where Chansey takes damage where Blissey wouldn't. I get that it's not like gen5, where you could bank on sandstorm being up in most games, but it's still pretty common. The ability to run Ice Beam for Lando/Chomp or Fire Blast for Scizor/Ferrothorn switch-ins is nice, especially if you're not a doofus about revealing your coverage too quickly. So yeah, Blissey could use a rise.

 

[Albacore]

Funnily enough, I've actually tried Jellicent out recently and it's not even bad. C+ is probably too high for it though, given how much competition it receives from other bulky Water types, particularly Slowking. I also wouldn't really say it beats Landorus convincingly :

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (65) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and even then, you have to run a SpD spread which is IMO inferior to phys def, since most of the things Jellicent wants to check are physical. Then again, Landorus is ridiculously hard to wall and anything that does a decent job at checking it is pretty hard to find.
But all the stuff about it spinblocking Starmie (who rarely runs TBolt and usually uses a bulky set) and Tentacruel (unless it runs Toxic which I have not yet seen), walling most Keldeo variants, being a nice stallbreaker (minus M Sableye obviously) and being able to stall out a lot of physical attackers is true. And yes, you can argue that MSableye also acts as a spinblocker/stallbreaker/burn spreader and is much better at these. But MSableye not only takes up a mega slot, but is also worn down by Starmie's burns and loses to offensive variants, and is beaten by Tenatcruel 1v1. In a metagame where spike-stacking (specifically, Toxic Spikes stacking) is becoming really popular, I can see Jellicent finding legitimate use on a bunch of spike-stacking balance teams as a good spinblocker that doesn't take up a Mega slot. D or C- seems lappropriate for it, it's really not a bad mon.

Oh and speaking of Spikes+TSpikes and Keldeo checks, I'd like to suggest Roserade for D rank as well. It receives a lot of competition from Amoonguss and MVenusaur, however it distinguishes itself from them by its access to Natural Cure, which means it's less worn down by Burns from Rotom/Keldeo than Amoonguss and especially MVenu, and more importantly, TSpikes which have gained a good amount of popularity recently. Though it suffers a lot of competition from Dragalge and Tentacruel as a TSpiker, it actually handles both Keldeo and Azumarill better than these two and acts as a far better Burn absorber, and also takes the usual roles you expect from a bulky Grass type, so I think it has enough positives over them to be ranked.

 

[Relaxed Dedenne]

I Nomanate this Magnet for B rank​

3-Ton=Magnets (Magneton) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Hp / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunderbolt

So There is a few reasons i think this one of them is it still has base 120 SpA which is pretty good, Its a better scarfer then Magnezone because it has 32 more speed with scarf making it faster and it can still do some damage, (Evolite Magneton is bad so don't sass me for not having another set :LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL)

252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 300-356 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock| 252 SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after St ealth Rock|252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 80-94 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[North Gate]

I Nomanate this Magnet for B rank​

3-Ton=Magnets (Magneton) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Hp / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunderbolt

So There is a few reasons i think this one of them is it still has base 120 SpA which is pretty good, Its a better scarfer then Magnezone because it has 32 more speed with scarf making it faster and it can still do some damage, (Evolite Magneton is bad so don't sass me for not having another set :LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL)

252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 300-356 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock| 252 SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after St ealth Rock|252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 80-94 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Oh my god, a move that is x4 damage to a Pokemon deals significant damage to it! But in all seriousness, it shouldn't be risen or whatever. ((DO not remember the ranking atm.)) Simply because of its evolution losing out on popularirty, also those calcs were completely awful and offensive mega venu would probably do a good amount with HP fire, not in the mood to calc, it's late. You would never stay in on Mega Zard X, and HP Ground is an option to hit Tran better but you probably get OHKOed by Lava Plume which is bad. Venu gets forced out anyway if lacking HP Fire/Earthquake.

 

[Flamer]

C->C+ Ok so I know I'll probably be in the minority here when I make this nom but going over the viability thread I've noticed that nape has been moved all the way down to C since the start of ORAS. I remember initially agreeing with this change, there was a big increase in mons that beat nape straight out. However, I recently started using nape for a joke and surprisingly enough, its been putting in a fuckload of work. After the hype surrounding the new mega's died down and a few overcentralising mons were banned, mons like Ferrothorn and heatran began to see a rise in usage due to their ability to completely wall staples in the OU metagame. This is where nape comes in as a great fire-type, both offensively and defensively. "Defensively?" you might ask and yes, Nape actually has a pretty good defensive set that is an absolute pain in the ass for more balanced teams to handle, while also being one of the most reliable counters to bisharp in existance. The defensive set also turns several would-be counters into liabilities, mons like Azumarill and Landorus-T get burnt on the switch. It's mixed set is also pretty decent and surprisingly powerful, capable of denting unprepared teams easily, not to mention the lead set, which apparantly is the only viable set infernape has, which is simply put, untrue. That's three completely different sets, all of which have variations in their movesets, move aside Garchomp, Infernape is the new Jack-of-all trades.

On top of this, Nape has an extremely versatile movepool that basically fits whatever you want it to beat; mach punch to take down weakened speedsters/priority users, HP ice for the Lati twins on the switch, U-turn to snag momentum, grassknot for fat waters, the list goes on. I used to think it had a case of 4mss because it couldnt fit all of these on a single set but these extra moves arent really necessary at all, just with its STABs alone nape does the job pretty well, the rest is just icing on the cake.

Some might compare nape to keldeo as a "mixed" wallbreaker who beats mons like Ferro and Tran however, the are a few pluses to using the burning monkey. Keldeos movepool is mostly made up of low BP moves so while having a higher SpAtk stat, it needs specs to do really meaningful damage to both ferrothorn and tran (from memory I dont think even specs secret sword KOs Defensive Ferro while I dont think I need to even say how much damage Fire Blast will do). Furthermore, Nape actually has this thing called coverage, Scald spam can only go so far in a metagame where there are not one, not two, but three Natural Cure users, one of which also carries Heal Bell, all three of which completely wall Keldeo. Infernape might lack some of the mindless spammability of Keldeo but it makes up for it with sheer utility.

As a fire type its main competition comes from Talonflame, Victini and the zards and while all of these see more use than nape, nape has a key advantages over all of these, a lack of SR weakness. In a metagame where getting up rocks reliably is pretty easy (think Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Landorus), the fact nape doesnt lose 25-50% of its health every switch is pretty valuable. Considering at minimum the other mons are an entire category above nape even though it has a similar amount of utility to Victini is justification enough for a raise. Compared to the rest of C-rank, Infernape is leaps and bounds ahead, like cmon, M-Absol, M-Camerupt? both cost a mega slot and are pretty fucking trash even if they didnt cost one.

Infernape isn't infallible though, there are plenty of mons that can safely switch into nape without an issue and nape has trouble switching into offensive teams but a well timed double into nape absolutely penetrates a large amount of teams and honestly, C is really underselling what nape can do, C+ feels like a much better fit. Below are two replays, one showcasing defensive nape, the other offensive nape. They're not amazing battles by any means but they definately show how effective nape can be at generally harassing teams.

Offensive
Defensive

Keep in mind guys this is a pretty unorganised piece. Also, I know Infernape isnt amazing but it definitely has more perks to it compared to the rest of C, if you havent used it you dont really have any base to your arguments.

 

[Kurona]

I Nomanate this Magnet for B rank​

3-Ton=Magnets (Magneton) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Hp / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunderbolt

So There is a few reasons i think this one of them is it still has base 120 SpA which is pretty good, Its a better scarfer then Magnezone because it has 32 more speed with scarf making it faster and it can still do some damage, (Evolite Magneton is bad so don't sass me for not having another set :LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL)

252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 300-356 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock| 252 SpA Magneton Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after St ealth Rock|252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 80-94 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

I have absolutely no idea what these calcs are trying to prove; why are you bothering to say T-bolt does little damage against a Pokémon that resists it, and why on earth are you carrying HP Ice when the Magnets' entire purpose is to steel trap?
I really don't feel like going over all the reasons why Magneton being anywhere near the B ranks is ridiculous because it's been echoed a ton of times before - just read a few pages back - but your post just has me incredibly perplexed. No-one runs Eviolite; we all know it's role is as a scarfer because the only reason you'd use Magneton is as a Magnezone that can outspeed and beat Talonflame - and that one niche is nowhere near good enough to sacrifice the power and bulk Magnezone has. HP Ice, as I have said, is just plain stupid to run on Magnezone/ton unless it's some lure because the entire reason for using these 'mon is to beat steels, hence you should only run HP Fire or in some - very few - cases HP Ground.

 

[ボーイ]

Nominating Arcanine

Unranked to Rank D
I'd like to begin by mentioning that I have spoken about Arcanine previously and that I was not given a fair argument.
Here is the evidence- http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-2165.3526596/page-73#post-6089810
I would also like to quote AM to defend myself because I am a new user, and because I see how savage the forum is based on how people reacted to Pye's Taurus nomination.

"I said I would put a rule for D rank but I haven't come up with one nor will I bother unless it requires actual moderator action. Granted it might be mind numbing to read some of them for you guys but do realize we spend time reading those and everything else that goes along with it. Also the fact I don't want to ignore legitimate D rank proposals cause we've gotten some in the past that turned out better than what people thought, see Reuniclus and Heracross." -AM

Ok, lets start with the presence of Arcanine and how it proceeds itself in OU. It is solely with a niche purpose of Will-o-wisp complimented by intimidate ability, a physically defensive nature & Morning Sun longevity. No other pokemon can have these traits all at once other than Arcanine. That being said, the only thing Arcanine is outclassed by is power. Charizard-Mega-X, Talonflame, Victini, and Entei are the better choices when it comes to physical damage, but when it comes down to playstyles I believe Arcanine shines out as a breed of its own. Let's look at a couple of calcs.

Arcanine vs Azumarill:
Arcanine switches in on Azumarill.
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 176-210 (45.9 - 54.8%)
Arcanine at the minimum of 45.2% HP; proceeds to Will-o-wisp.
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 88-105 (22.9 - 27.4%)
Arcanine at the minimum of 17.8% HP; proceeds to Morning Sun.
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 45-54 (11.7 - 14%)
Arcanine at the minimum of 3.8% HP; survives and immediately recovers to the minimum of 53.8% HP.
Azumarill is very burnable.

Arcanine vs Altaria-Mega:
Arcanine switches in on Altaria-Mega.
-1 252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 59.5% chance to 3HKO
Arcanine at the minimum of 63.5% HP; proceeds to will-o-wisp.
-1 252+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 59.5% chance to 3HKO
Arcanine at the minimum of 27% HP; proceeds to Morning Sun.
-1 252+ Atk burned Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 59-70 (15.4 - 18.2%)
Arcanine at the minimum of 8.8% HP; survives and immediately recovers to the minimum of 58.8% HP.
Altaria-Mega is very burnable.

Other Relevant Calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 119-141 (31 - 36.8%) -- 73% chance to 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 136-162 (35.5 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 96-114 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Charizard Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 134-158 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 90-106 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 78.7% chance to 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
All opportunities to Roar, Toxic, or Will-o-wisp.

As you can see, these calcs prove the usefulness in Arcanine in terms of a Stall playstyle. The ability to wall and cripple some of the best OU pokemon is a great asset for stall play, and with the rise of Altaria-Mega & the drop use of scarf Landorus-Therian it gives another reason to have Arcanine back in D Rank as it once was previously. It's a fun pokemon to play with for stall players, and a very effective one too. Just take a look for yourself in some of these replays. I wish I could show you another team with Arcanine, but sadly I only have 1 team since I started playing in Showdown. Please consider my nomination?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-220826000
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-215117438
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-221460153

 

[LMay]

I don't really agree with this , the best Azu's set atm is the choice band , AV is pretty unviable now.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 264-312 (68.9 - 81.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(nice counter)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 264-312 (68.9 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
After the burn :
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power burned Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 52.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You lose to the most common set of Azu , that's not really great.

Now , Altaria... What can you do after the burn ? I mean, Altaria really doesn't care , he has just to spam DD + Roost or reveal the Heal bell set (please don't tell me Iron head Arcanine , that's not viable , the only viable set is Morning sun / Wow / Flare blitz (or flamethrower) / Espeed.)

I don't really agree with you , the only niche for arcanine is to check Megagross when SR aren't up , Stealth rocks weakness is really bad when you are a defensive mon , just use Rotom-W or ScarfTran to check Megagross or Defensive Lando-T to intimidate pressure imo. Arcanine should stay Unranked

 

[AM]

Update time so here we go....

Magneton: Down to C+
M-Latias: Up to A
Slowking: Up to B-
Weavile: Up to B+
Dragalge: Up to B+
Mandibuzz: Down to B-
Hydreigon: Up to B
Quagsire: Stays in B
M-Medicham: Stays in C+
Reuniclus: Up to B-
Alakazam: Up to C
Tyrantrum: Stays in C+
Crawdaunt: Up to B
Metagross: Unranked to D
Hawlucha: Stays in B
Honchkrow: Unranked to D
Victini: Up to B+
Rhyperior: Down to C+
Starmie: Stays in A
Manaphy: Stays in A
Mew: Up to A-
Mega Ampharos:  Up to C
Excadrill: Stays in A
Shaymin: Unranked to D
Kyurem: Unranked to C-
Mantine: Stays Unranked

Some things that weren't discussed in full

Honchkrow discussion was awhile back but during the last couple of updates didn't get a definitive ranking change as it was being discussed by ranking team. After some discussion, watching some replays of it in action, and seeing that it's not so much a niche but the fact it has some capabilities warranting D rank minimum it was decided to be voted on and as you can see is now ranked.

Mantine stays unranked because the ability to check Landorus goes out the window when the increase of Rock Slide makes this a complete liability as a check. On top of this the pool of Pokemon it's designed to check is so small that while it may warrant a team option for very select teams it isn't quite enough to hit the criteria of D rank.

Since people keep asking went ahead and confirmed Excadrill ranking. Nothing has changed for it and it was a unanimous vote to keep it in A. The necessity to maintain sand along with creating a linearity in team archetype is indeed enough for Excadrill to stay A as the support required to do its job isn't as self sufficient as the other A+ ranked Pokemon in the rankings. Excadrill favors match ups that are primarily against offense, as these are generally prone to weather offense, however in order to break balance and stall builds Excadrill needs a Swords Dance and it needs to find opportunities to actually get one in which is easier said than done if we're considering that this is what is suppose to constitute an A+ ranked Pokemon.

Anything else that was discussed but not on the slate can be considered a no change at this point in time.

Next Slate:

Empoleon: B- > B
Skarmory: B+ > A-
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B
Starmie: A to A+
Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
Alakazam: C to C+


Primarily on top of anything else that warrants discussion this will be two things we will be looking at to see move up.

ben said it best that Empoleon can be considered a "water type Heatran". Empoleons defensive capabilities and utility options allow it to provide plenty of assets on a team when needed. Stealth Rock setter, Defog, Lati switch in, Yawn, Roar and so forth are just a few elements that Empoleon is able to bring to the table on defensive cores and balance builds in the meta.

Skarmory going to A- is primarily for its Specially Defensive set along with Custap Lead. It's been discussed a bit but not to the level that can warrant a ranking change along with the fact this update was big enough to where not a whole lot was being considered at that point.

With all that said Henry took his last vote this update and has stated he will have lower activity. He will be replaced by Jukain which most of you already know as a long time contributor to the OU Viability Rankings and OU tiering in general so welcome Jukain!

All changes have been implemented so if anything else let us know.

Edit: 2500 not bad not bad

 

[Srn]

Update time so here we go....

Magneton: Down to C+
M-Latias: Up to A
Slowking: Up to B-
Weavile: Up to B+
Dragalge: Up to B+
Mandibuzz: Down to B-
Hydreigon: Up to B
Quagsire: Stays in B
M-Medicham: Stays in C+
Reuniclus: Up to B-
Alakazam: Up to C
Tyrantrum: Stays in C+
Crawdaunt: Up to B
Metagross: Unranked to D
Hawlucha: Stays in B
Honchkrow: Unranked to D
Victini: Up to B+
Rhyperior: Down to C+
Starmie: Stays in A
Manaphy: Stays in A
Mew: Up to A-
Mega Ampharos:  Up to C
Excadrill: Stays in A
Shaymin: Unranked to D
Kyurem: Unranked to C-
Mantine: Stays Unranked

Some things that weren't discussed in full

Honchkrow discussion was awhile back but during the last couple of updates didn't get a definitive ranking change as it was being discussed by ranking team. After some discussion, watching some replays of it in action, and seeing that it's no so much a niche but the fact it has some capabilities warranting D rank minimum it was decided to be voted on and as you can see is now ranked.

Mantine stays unranked because the ability to check Landorus goes out the window when the increase of Rock Slide makes this a complete liability as a check. On top of this the pool of Pokemon it's designed to check is so small that while it may warrant a team option for very select teams it isn't quite enough to hit the criteria of D rank.

Since people keep asking went ahead and confirmed Excadrill ranking. Nothing has changed for it and it was a unanimous vote to keep it in A. The necessity to maintain sand along with creating a linearity in team archetype is indeed enough for Excadrill to stay A as the support required to do its job isn't as self sufficient as the other A+ ranked Pokemon in the rankings. Excadrill favors match ups that are primarily against offense, as these are generally prone to weather offense, however in order to break balance and stall builds Excadrill needs a Swords Dance and it needs to find opportunities to actually get one in which is easier said than done if we're considering that this is what is suppose to constitute an A+ ranked Pokemon.

Anything else that was discussed but not on the slate can be considered a no change at this point in time.

Next Slate:

Empoleon: B- > B
Skarmory: B+ > A-

Primarily on top of anything else that warrants discussion this will be two things we will be looking at to see move up.

ben said it best that Empoleon can be considered a "water type Heatran". Empoleons defensive capabilities and utility options allow it to provide plenty of assets on a team when needed. Stealth Rock setter, Defog, Lati switch in, Yawn, Roar and so forth are just a few elements that Empoleon is able to bring to the table on defensive cores and balance builds in the meta.

Skarmory going to A- is primarily for its Specially Defensive set along with Custap Lead. It's been discussed a bit but not to the level that can warrant a ranking change along with the fact this update was big enough to where not a whole lot was being considered at that point.

With all that said Henry took his last vote this update and has stated he will have lower activity. He will be replaced by Jukain which most of you already know as a long time contributor to the OU Viability Rankings and OU tiering in general so welcome Jukain!

All changes have been implemented so if anything else let us know.

Edit: 2500 not bad not bad

Mandi still went down? Come on guys :[

Well that aside, i don't think empoleon as a water type heatran is a very valid assesment for one main reason: its not stopping clefable.
heatran has taunt and lava plume to slowly wear it down while still being able to take boosted moonblasts with a 4x resist.
Perhaps empoleon has yawn and roar and all that crap but its really not forcing Cm clefable to lose, if anything clefable is setting up vs it. Empoleon ultimately isn't even a check to Cm clefable, and that's one of the biggest reasons people would even want a steel.

To expand upon its steel typing, another reason people want steels is to stop dragons, char-x and garchomp mostly. Well heatran does a pretty ok job of stopping char-x, and skarm does a mostly good job of stopping garchomp and altaria (without fire blast ofc), ferro and zor can kinda stop kyu-b. But what dragons does empoleon stop? Its getting nuked by flare blitz from char-x, decimated from eq from garchomp and altaria, and fusion bolt/earth power from kyu-b.

So while its water/steel typing may look attractive, it can't stop either dragons or fairies. And that's pretty much the reason people even use steels...

Properties that you'd expect of a bulky water, such as being able to stop other fires and waters, aren't really there with empoleon either. Its obviously neutral to fire and the two most common water attackers, keldeo and azu, can blow past it pretty easily with secret sword or superpower, respectively. It can't check any of the new megas either, despite resisting mmetas stab's it just dies to hammer arm.

The somewhat useful grass neutrality is once again kinda destroyed when you realize the relevant grass type mons in the tier (breloom, chesnaught, mvenu, amoong, celebi, ferrothorn) are either too bulky for anything you do to matter or just destroy you with their secondary stab.
If i had to use emopoleon i'd rather go with some weird ass specs set of hydro/ib/flas cannon/hp grass or some shit.

So while it has utility and all that, it doesn't use its typing well. I don't think it should raise.

 

[Baharoth]

You forgot 2 important dragons. The Latis. And Empoleon is a better switch in to them than Heatran because he isnt ohkoed by EQ and takes nothing from Surf. Tbolt would be a problem but thats a rare coverage move. Also Empoleon can switch into Azu without Super Power with ease. He isnt quite as good as Ferro against Azu but much better than Heatran, its also not ohkoed by Diancies EP and can tank an EQ from Altaria better than Heatran ever could. Yes it doesnt stop Chomp or Zard but Heatran cant do that either against Chomp and against Zard only if Zard forgoes EQ for Roost. Against Metagross it can avoid the 2hko from Hammer Arm after one round of protect (look at the calcs). It can also check Gyarados, Gengar, Clefable (as long as Clef isnt the last mon), Talonflame and Starmie. With protect it can even take advantage of choiced Keldeo sets.

252 Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Empoleon: 184-218 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Empoleon: 214-254 (57.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 192+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Empoleon: 184-218 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Empoleon: 129-152 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Empoleon: 127-151 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- 43.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Do what you want with it but that post basicly "forgot" to mention every single positive trait Empoleon has.

 

[Srn]

You forgot 2 important dragons. The Latis. And Empoleon is a better switch in to them than Heatran because he isnt ohkoed by EQ and takes nothing from Surf. Tbolt would be a problem but thats a rare coverage move. Also Empoleon can switch into Azu without Super Power with ease. He isnt quite as good as Ferro against Azu but much better than Heatran, its also not ohkoed by Diancies EP and can tank an EQ from Altaria better than Heatran ever could. Yes it doesnt stop Chomp or Zard but Heatran cant do that either against Chomp and against Zard only if Zard forgoes EQ for Roost. Against Metagross it can avoid the 2hko from Hammer Arm after one round of protect (look at the calcs). It can also check Gyarados, Gengar, Clefable (as long as Clef isnt the last mon), Talonflame and Starmie. With protect it can even take advantage of choiced Keldeo sets.

252 Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Empoleon: 184-218 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Empoleon: 214-254 (57.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 192+ Atk Altaria Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Empoleon: 184-218 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Empoleon: 129-152 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Empoleon: 127-151 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- 43.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Do what you want with it but that post basicly "forgot" to mention every single positive trait Empoleon has.

oh yea i did forget the latis.
Regardless, empoleon is 2hko'd by eq from latios, so its still not a great switch-in to that. Yeah, its better than heatran which is ohko'd by it, but its still not really a safe one, especially considering you do almost nothing back. If you wanted a better switch-in to lati, you'd try clefable or tyranitar.

As far as azu goes, empoleon is checking the narrow percent of azus that are both not CB and don't have superpower. BD variants can easily destroy you with a +6 knock, and AV super power or CB knock is putting a big dent in you (that you can't heal back up without wish support). Not to mention youer' doing practically nothing but hoping for scald burns anyway.

Zard-x hardly ever runs eq anyways, its mostly running roost/dd/flare biltz/dclaw.
For mmeta, you may be able to extremely narrowly avoid a 2hko from hammer arm, but what then? Do you scald for 30% then proceed to die? Doesn't seem like a fantastic solution to me.

And how exactly is it checking gyarados? It can't break subs, can only roar (which doesn't solve the problem) and it can't take boosted crunches from mega. The normal can still beat you very easily 1v1 and you're forced to roar. If that's your only check, then you still run the risk of losing to it; the only way you don't is if you can limit its switch-ins with every single other mon on your team, which would then force you to not bring in empol for fear of gyara switching in and setting up.
Seriously, half of empoleon "checking" things is relying on a scald burn turn 1 lol.

idk what gengar check you'er referring to:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 60 SpD Empoleon: 320-377 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

And the same problem with gyara applies to clefable as well: you're just taking hits an pretending you're a check when in reality you do nothing back.
Talon/starmie check is pretty valid but there are things that do it better, like scarftar.