Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Ares]

Artwork by Sunfished

NU VIABILITY RANKING

Welcome to the official NU Viability Ranking thread. These rankings have been revamped to meet a new stricter set of criteria as to avoid over inflation and Pokemon being placed in a rank that doesn't denote their appropriate abilities. The concept of this thread is that we will organize the Pokemon in our tier into ranks, varying on how good they are. You are encouraged to post your thoughts on where Pokemon should be ranked. Please note that each section is going to be in alphabetical order.

To make ranking these Pokemon easier the NU Viability Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank. Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup. However, something to remember while ranking is that filling criteria is not a black and white process. Pokemon A might have a stronger effect on the metagame compared to Pokemon B, but Pokemon B might still influence teambuilding a lot. Take into account the varying degrees of these criteria as you reflect on a nomination.

In order to cut down on shitposting, please do not bandwagon post. Unless you have new or different experiences to share, you are defending a nomination, or if the nomination has not been discussed for ~3 days, try to avoid repeating the same information someone else said before you. Posts asking for your favorite Pokemon to jump ranks and don't fill the above criteria will be deleted.

If you click on an sprite it will take you to the dex page :)

Last Update:​

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NU Rankings

S Rank:
Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.​

S
Rhydon
Samurott
Sawk
Tauros

​

A Rank:

Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back.​

A+
Archeops
Audino (Mega)
Garbodor
Lanturn
Lilligant
Magmortar
Pyroar
Shiftry


A
Combusken
Jynx
Kangaskhan
Mesprit
Musharna
Rotom
Scyther
Vivillon


A-
Carracosta
Ferroseed
Kabutops
Klinklang
Ludicolo
Malamar
Skuntank
Swellow
Vileplume
Xatu​

B Rank:

Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.​

B+
Aurorus
Cacturne
Floatzel
Gourgeist-XL
Hariyama
Haunter
Hitmonchan
Mawile
Rotom-Fan
Torterra
Weezing
Zangoose


B
Articuno
Barbaracle
Claydol
Electivire
Exeggutor
Golurk
Gourgeist-S
Gurdurr
Jumpluff
Liepard
Mismagius
Piloswine
Poliwrath
Primeape
Quagsire
Roselia
Sandslash


B-
Chatot
Gorebyss
Kadabra
Linoone
Misdreavus
Ninetales
Pawniard
Pelipper
Prinplup
Regirock
Tangela
Vanilluxe​

C Rank:

Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.​

C+
Arbok
Bouffalant
Cradily
Crustle
Cryogonal
Grumpig
Huntail
Kecleon
Leafeon
Miltank
Mr. Mime
Stoutland
Ursaring
Victreebel


C
Beheeyem
Dodrio
Flareon
Fraxure
Gogoat
Hippopotas
Marowak
Raichu
Regice
Sawsbuck

Servine
Simisage


C-
Basculin
Ditto
Golem
Mantine
Metang
Muk
Ninjask
Rotom-Frost
Shedinja
Swanna
Volbeat
Vullaby
Zebstrika
Zweilous​

D Rank:

Pokemon in this rank struggle to fill criteria. These are Pokemon who are usually so bogged down by their negative criteria that they become hard to justify for any serious team.​

D

Ariados
Audino
Avalugg
Drifblim
Dusknoir
Frillish
Frogadier
Kricketune

Lapras
Leavanny
Lickilicky
Quilladin
Rampardos
Rapidash
Relicanth
Simipour
Stunfisk
Torkoal
​

E Rank:

Pokemon in this rank have been determined to be more trouble than they are worth. Any positives a Pokemon in this rank may have is usually eclipsed by their excess in negative characteristics. This rank indicates all Pokemon not represented and lists any Pokemon recently dropped from the list.​

E
Carbink
Delibird
Dusclops

Lampent
Probopass
...and everything else. ​

 

[Ares]

Threat level
- How difficult is it to stop this Pokemon offensively and / or defensively?
- What are the best general methods of dealing with it, and how effective are they?
- Does the Pokemon have ways of working around its countermeasures? If so, how much does it have to sacrifice to do so?

Splashability
- What levels of support are required for this Pokemon to function, and how easy is it to maintain this support on most teams?
- Does it have multiple roles it can fulfill on different teams? If not, does this one role accomplish enough to set it apart from other options?
- What are the roles it fills and how practical are they? Compared to other Pokemon with similar roles, what traits do this Pokemon have over them and how important are these traits?

Consistent
- How good is this Pokemon at fulfilling its roles? How much do its flaws prevent it from doing its job(s)?
- Is the Pokemon in question potent at most points throughout a battle?
- How useful is it in different matchups? What playstyles does it fare well and poorly against and how dominant are those playstyles?

Effect on the metagame
- What kinds of trends does this Pokemon set? Think about Speed creep or coverage moves that are run specifically (or at least primarily) for this Pokemon.
- Does this Pokemon affect the viability of other Pokemon (both better and worse), and by how much?
- Does this Pokemon threaten a common team archetype?

Also reserved for potential writeups of rankings

 

[Ares]

Having just revamped this list from our previous rankings the nu viability council, along with a lot of trusted members of the community, have come up with this current rankings. A lot of changes were made from the old one and I realize that some of these might be confusing at first. What I urge you to do is to look at the new criteria for each rank and try to gauge why the Pokemon in that rank is there as it was for a good reason. If you still can't find a reason why that Pokemon should be in that rank then you can ask for reasoning and I or one of the viability council will post reasoning on a certain drop or rise. Also note that each drop and rise is not definitive and that discussion on every mon in the rankings is welcomed. What won't be welcomed is asking for a pokemon to rise because it used to be a certain rank, or because it is your favorite mon, or because you've had mild success with it on a ladder run and think it should then rise. You should be able to back up your nomination with facts that can fit the above criteria as well as from your own personal playing experience.

For reference here is a list of changes:

changes

Rises ---
Samurott A+ --> S
Vivillon B+ --> A
Ferroseed B+ --> A-
Jumpluff B- --> B
Grumpig C --> C+
Fraxure C- --> C
Metang D --> C-
Muk D --> C-
Ariados Unranked --> D
Drops ---
Archeops S --> A+
Magmortar S --> A+
Gurdurr A+ --> B
Jynx A+ --> A
Klinklang A+ --> A-
Mesprit A+ --> A
Musharna A+ --> A
Scyther A+ --> A
Xatu A+ --> A-
Carracosta A -- A-
Hariyama A --> B+
Kabutops A --> A-
Liepard A --> B
Ludicolo A --> A-
Mawile A --> B+
Torterra A --> B+
Aurorus A- --> B+
Barbaracle A- --> B
Floatzel A- --> B+
Haunter A- --> B+
Piloswine A- --> B
Quagsire A- --> B
Weezing A- --> B+
Claydol B+ --> B
Exeggutor B+ --> B
Gourgeist-S B+ --> B
Pawniard B+ --> B-
Pelipper B+ --> B-
Prinplup B+ --> B-
Roselia B+ --> B
Bouffalant B --> C+
Linoone B --> B-
Misdreavus B --> B-
Regirock B --> B-
Tangela B --> B-
Arbok B- --> C+
Beheeyem B- --> C
Flareon B- --> C
Crustle B- --> C+
Kecleon B- --> C+
Ursaring B- --> C+
Audino C+ --> D
Rampardos C+ --> D
Rapidash C+ --> D
Rotom-Frost C+ --> C-
Zebstrika C+ --> C-
Zweilous C+ --> C-
Drifblim C --> D
Leavanny C --> D
Lickilicky C --> D
Mantine C --> C-
Ninjask C --> C-
Simipour C --> D
Stunfisk C --> D
Swanna C --> C-
Avalugg C- --> D
Ditto C- --> D
Dusknoir C- --> D
Frogadier C- --> D
Kricketune C- --> D
Lapras C- --> D
Quilladin C- --> D
Torkoal C- --> D
Carbink D --> E
Delibird D --> E
Dusclops D --> E
Lampent D --> E
Probopass D --> E

 

[cyanize]

Whew, these new viability rankings are a breath of fresh air! I feel like these are considerably better at representing the state of the meta right now, and are a lot easier to look at. However, I do have some minor gripes...

Gurdurr B --> B+/A-
I'm not exactly sure how or why this thing dropped, as it is still as scary as it has ever been. Very good bulk with Eviolite gives it a lot of setup opportunities, access to Guts means it doesn't care about burns like most other physical attackers, access to STAB priority allows it to pick off weakened faster opponents as well as help it sweep, and semi-reliable recovery with Drain Punch lets it stay alive for longer, also facilitating its sweep. Knock Off also allows it to sweep, by removing Colbur Berries, Leftovers and the like from its checks which leaves them open to being KO'd later. It faces stiff competition from the other Fighting-types, but it has a combination of bulk, speed, and priority that makes it continue to be a huge threat, and definitely worthy of a rise.

Claydol B --> B+
Claydol's combination of type and ability make it the only hazard clearer in the tier that either resists or is immune to all type of hazards, which in essence makes it the best spinner in the tier. This alone should make it at least worthy of B+ rank, but when you add in the fact that it's rather easy to put on a team, and the factors of it's nice speed tier, good coverage, and ability to beat spinblockers as well as provide as an emergency check for Fighting-types, it deserves to be put above less effective 'mons such as Electivire and Sandslash.

 

[Pokedots]

Whew, these new viability rankings are a breath of fresh air! I feel like these are considerably better at representing the state of the meta right now, and are a lot easier to look at. However, I do have some minor gripes...

Gurdurr B --> B+/A-
I'm not exactly sure how or why this thing dropped, as it is still as scary as it has ever been. Very good bulk with Eviolite gives it a lot of setup opportunities, access to Guts means it doesn't care about burns like most other physical attackers, access to STAB priority allows it to pick off weakened faster opponents as well as help it sweep, and semi-reliable recovery with Drain Punch lets it stay alive for longer, also facilitating its sweep. Knock Off also allows it to sweep, by removing Colbur Berries, Leftovers and the like from its checks which leaves them open to being KO'd later. It faces stiff competition from the other Fighting-types, but it has a combination of bulk, speed, and priority that makes it continue to be a huge threat, and definitely worthy of a rise.

Claydol B --> B+
Claydol's combination of type and ability make it the only hazard clearer in the tier that either resists or is immune to all type of hazards, which in essence makes it the best spinner in the tier. This alone should make it at least worthy of B+ rank, but when you add in the fact that it's rather easy to put on a team, and the factors of it's nice speed tier, good coverage, and ability to beat spinblockers as well as provide as an emergency check for Fighting-types, it deserves to be put above less effective 'mons such as Electivire and Sandslash.

Gurdurr's certainly one of the more controversial drops, but I and most of the people who worked on the vr rankings all agreed that it should be dropped to the B ranks, though there was some discussion about B vs B+. The main reason is because it's threat level's nearly non-existent. Every team should have a Fighting resist because of Sawk, and any Pokemon that can handle Sawk will handle Gurdurr with ease, making it kinda useless in a lot of matchups outside of checking what it checks. Granted, Gurdurr checks a lot, but in quite a few cases, like the Normal-types (it's nearly 2HKOed by both Kangaskhan and Tauros), the Rock-types (Rhydon, Kabutops, and Carracosta do like 35-40%) and the Dark-types (Knock Off), it's honestly not all that reliable, mainly because of the nature of Drain Punch. Against any team with a competent Fighting resist, Drain Punch will do a pittance, making it so it doesn't regain almost any HP and so be unable to switch in later in the game. I can see an argument for B+ along with its Fighting-type brethren Hariyama and Hitmonchan, but they have significantly more important and unique niches in their respective Fire/Ice-resistance and special bulk and strong priority and Rapid Spin, and while it's quite splashable, Gurdurr's low threat level and inconsistency as an answer to what it's trying to check makes it so I can't agree with moving it out of B, let alone the B-ranks.

 

[Machineae]

Pretty interesting but conservative changes which are much more fitting IMO. I'm unsure of a few things, but I also don't feel too strongly about them. Looking at things quickly I feel like Articuno is just a bit too high. It feels odd seeing Articuno with stuff like Piloswine, Poliwrath, Liepard and Gourgeist-S. I feel those have clear cut reasons why you would run them over other mons yet I can't give a good reason why'd you run Articuno besides you liking it and wanting to bop some fools with the ice bird. Granted, offensively speaking it's STABs are godly IMO. Rocks are easier than ever to clear but still running something that is so heavily hampered by them feels like a big detriment in this very offensive meta because you slow your pace down when you have to force a situation where you can safely clear them.

I'm iffy on Pinsir as well but I have less of an argument for that.

 

[marilli]

It's categorized alphabetically within tiers, so Articuno isn't ranked above Piloswine and stuff. Even then, I think there's still argument to be made if it really deserves B instead of B- and such argument wouldn't be out of line (idk much about current metagame trends, lol), but I think it's fine where it is. Compared to Vanilluxe, Articuno has notable upsides for its 4x SR weak (which isn't hard to clear in NU) in higher speed tier, ability to do meaningful damage to Magmortar, Yama, and much more: C+ is certainly too low for it. Somewhere between B- and B seems like a right place for Articuno, and it should be fine where it is given that many mons in B- are also pretty niche options.

I have been told that the team has leaned to spreading out the tierings, resulting in a large number of 'mons being dropped in ranks. I believe they are correct in doing so: spreading out the 'mons in different viability tiers give a more accurate representation of what's good and what's less good. It doesn't provide much information when there are a lot of Pokemon bunched up in a single tier, so it'd be for the best if everyone don't try to think along the lines of "what'd this mon drop? it didn't get worse", but consider what's ranked near them and compare accordingly.

 

[Machineae]

That second paragraph clears things up for me pretty well. I didn't mean to say I thought I thought it was better than Pilo because it was higher (I should've clarified my bad.) I definitely feel like it's between those two, but that's just nitpicking. Overall these rankings look very, very solid.

 

[bird crew]

Could someone explain to me why piloswine was brought back down to B? It was fairly recently that it got the rise to A- from B+, I'm curious what new metagame shifts make it less viable

 

[jake]

Claydol's combination of type and ability make it the only hazard clearer in the tier that either resists or is immune to all type of hazards, which in essence makes it the best spinner in the tier. This alone should make it at least worthy of B+ rank, but when you add in the fact that it's rather easy to put on a team, and the factors of it's nice speed tier, good coverage, and ability to beat spinblockers as well as provide as an emergency check for Fighting-types, it deserves to be put above less effective 'mons such as Electivire and Sandslash.

i agree! i really like the new placings and definitions.

however, i do disagree on your nomination for claydol. i am not a fan of any spinners in the tier, but i don't think that immunity to spikes + sr resistance instantly qualifies claydol for top spinner when they're all just kinda mediocre (claydol included). the "splashability" of claydol is a question mark at best in my books; it's an OK switch-in for fighting-types at best since the offensive sets are whittled easily (even colbur offensive dol can't take more than one hit from jolly no-item sawk) and defensive variants are incredibly weak. it also isn't very effective at forcing out rockers, as pkmn like rhydon can just eat up an earth power and retaliate with megahorn. claydol's speed feels mostly irrelevant since whatever it's trying to KO can typically take a hit even from LO variants and kill back.

i think claydol at B is pretty fair. it's alright, it does what it needs to, but it also opens numerous potential issues against pokemon like samurott, lilligant, etc. being forced to choose between an invisible offensive presence or a minuscule defensive presence hurts it a lot too as a pokemon that wants to be something of a reliable tank, in my opinion.

Could someone explain to me why piloswine was brought back down to B? It was fairly recently that it got the rise to A- from B+, I'm curious what new metagame shifts make it less viable

read the second part of marilli's post above!

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Thank Arceus you didn't fuck up the layout. I may be a sucker for tradition, but I was firmly against the idea of a complete visual overhaul. Don't consider doing that shit again plz.

As for Claydol, why is it in the same tier as Sandslash when it clearly outclasses it? Claydol has better Speed, better overall bulk (Sandslash: 75+110+55=240, Claydol: 60+105+120=280) and a secondary type to work with. I get Sandslash is more powerful, but Claydol is way better as a bulky spinner. It's also good with Screens support.

 

[kay]

Sandslash has more uses then just spinning. It hits amazing speed inside of Sand, being the best sweeper sand teams have. It also offers things that Claydol can't such as Knock Off and SD. Just because they're both Ground types who can use Rapid Spin isn't enough for one to outclass the other, they're both useful in their own ways.

 

[Machineae]

Thank Arceus you didn't fuck up the layout. I may be a sucker for tradition, but I was firmly against the idea of a complete visual overhaul. Don't consider doing that shit again plz.

As for Claydol, why is it in the same tier as Sandslash when it clearly outclasses it? Claydol has better Speed, better overall bulk (Sandslash: 75+110+55=240, Claydol: 60+105+120=280) and a secondary type to work with. I get Sandslash is more powerful, but Claydol is way better as a bulky spinner. It's also good with Screens support.

Raw numbers don't mean very much when the only things they have in common are a ground typing and the move rapid spin. Both fill different niches as spinners, if that's what Sandslash chooses to do anyways. As Kay said Sandslash is pretty versatile in what it does and can fill more than one role depending on how you wanna use him. Claydol get's great offensive coverage, but middling stats while Sandslash is able to boost and has just enough coverage to sweep in sand.

Also screens are 99.99% non existent in this tier js

 

[Shadestep]

I haven't played NU for a long time, but have been getting into it lately and have been absolutely loving Scyther (especially the bulky Eviolite set w/ roost and SD) , and I think that Scyther should move up to A+.
The only stops to it are SR, Thunder Wave and bulky poison/steel/rock types. Pair Scyther with a spooky special water type with cool coverage/STAB moves (think Poliwrath) to switch in on u-turn from scyther, and threaten the Scyther checks. In a tier full of bulky jiggle psychics, Bulky Scyther can abuse those weak psychics as they can't really break scyther without too many boosts, and scyther can threaten them with +2 Bug Bite/U-Turn. Even with rocks op, scyther can roost off on psychics and other fat stuff, making it really hard to kill scyther.

Its speed tier is also really good, only a handful of non-scarfers outpace it and it abuses the free turns that it getd by switching into CB Sawk and other fighting-spam-mons, giving you lots of momentum with either u-turn or roost.

Im not the most experienced NU player so i mightve completely overlooked some of its flaws, but in my experience it deserves to be up there with other A+ threats.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Raw numbers don't mean very much when the only things they have in common are a ground typing and the move rapid spin. Both fill different niches as spinners, if that's what Sandslash chooses to do anyways. As Kay said Sandslash is pretty versatile in what it does and can fill more than one role depending on how you wanna use him. Claydol get's great offensive coverage, but middling stats while Sandslash is able to boost and has just enough coverage to sweep in sand.

Also screens are 99.99% non existent in this tier js

Oh. You see, I'm used to seeing Sandslash as a bulky spinner, and Claydol is way better at that. I haven't seen that many sand teams, so I kinda forgot about the whole Sand Sweeper thing.

 

[Ren-chon]

Mesprit to A+

Seriously, Mesprit is just a monster. People may argue that it's not the best scarfer, it's not the best SR setter, it's not the best CM user, it's not the best band/specs, it's not the best support mon, it's not the best all-out attacker... Hope you got what I'm trying to say. Mesprit is maybe the most unpredictable Pokémon in the whole tier, and I'm not talking about Musharna level of unpredictability which is like changing one move and calling it a whole different set. Mesprit only really needs Psy(chic/shock) and maybe Signal Beam or U-Turn to work, leaving the other 2 moves to a combination of: Stealth Rock, HP Ground/Fire, Ice Beam, Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, Knock Off, Calm Mind, Energy "HAHAHAHA IS YOUR MESPRIT CHECK REALLY RHYDON/QUAGSIRE???" Ball, Substitute (props to Brick Small. for showing it to me yesterday), Toxic, Trick... You basically can't guess its set, unless it's the only one in the team who can learn SR, and even then you'll have to guess the other 2 moves (the bug coverage + filler). And I know it can't run everything in the same set and often you'll wish you had X instead of Y, but just the fact that it can run so many different moves is enough to give you a headache against a well used Mesprit.

If it wasn't enough already, Mesprit has solid stats distribution, sporting awesome 80/105/105 defenses and a nice 105/105/80 offenses. Defensively speaking, it's enough to be able to check a lot of mons and abuse yellow magic to heavily cripple them, while also making a good pivot and bulky SR setter. Talking about his offenses, while his Spe may not be ideal nowadays it's still good enough to outspeed a lot of threats, like Samurott, Lonely/Naughty Shiftry, Adamant Sawk... Fuck, I'll just call the things it can beat: Rhydon, Samurott, Carracosta, Kabutops (all if EBall), Garbodor, Shiftry, Combusken (Fire Blast isn't a KO even after SR), Malamar, Vileplume, Xatu (if IBeam), Hariyama, Weezing, Torterra (if IBeam²)... Heck, it can even bop Ferroseed with HP Fire (something I've had a lot of success with in Slam) and Skuntank with HP Ground.

I know it isn't the best 'mon in the tier. It can't wall everything like Musharna or Audino, nor can it wreck teams like Jynx or Sawk, but the fact it can be tweaked to fit whatever role your team needs and the pressure is on your opp's side to correctly guess what set you're running is enough to bump it to A+ in my opinion. Now, about the questions Montsegur asked in the second post:

Threat level: On the paper, Mesprit seems pretty easy to beat, as its offenses are not amazing and it has in general moves with just average BP. But, at least from personal experience, it's a completely different matter when you actually face one. You'll have to properly scout it before attempting to build a solid gameplan, or you'll just watch things die as you switch in against the pixie. In resume, it isn't THAT strong, but its coverage is enough to threaten the whole tier.
Splashability: Mesprit's strongest perk. Like I said a lot before, Mesprit can fulfill an infinite of different roles and do well in all of them. While it isn't the best in any (maybe the best pivot SR setter lol), it has its advantagens: better coverage and access to Healing Wish over Rotom (scarfer); has a better supportive moveset than Musharna and Rhydon, while being faster than the two and Audino (bulky set); is faster than Audino and Musharna (CM sweeper); and is waaaay bulkier than Jynx (offensive psychic).
Consistent: Another strong perk. Its SR set will 99% of the time set up Rocks, its CM set is threatening even without boosting, its 4 atks set is almost impossible to switch in, its bulky set can check a lot of mons and just use Healing Wish when it's about to die, and the scarf set can abuse U-Turn while also being able to use Healing Wish. Basically every single one of Mesprit's relevant sets is highly consistent and able to do its job through the match.
Effect on the metagame: The weak point. Mesprit is by no way a metagame shaper. Nothing is being used less or more because of it. It isn't broken, nor the face of the metagame. It isn't a S-rank threat like Tauros, Sawk or >AUDINO<. If anything, it maybe makes Malamar and Shiftry not as good as they should be, as it's one less Psychic-type to properly check. If I were to grade, it would probably be like 5/10, 6/10 on a good day.

 

[MZ]

Not only does Sleep Powder, it's way of being able to set up, have a 75% chance to actually hit

Compoundeyes tho
Vivillon is incredibly scary, most of its checks are quite easily worn down or defeated by just running something like energy ball and sleep+STAB SE hurricane on almost every relevant sleep immunity is incredibly annoying. Even if it won't sweep you because you have a scarf scyther or whatever, it's still going to sleep and kill something because it's incredibly consistent. Magmortar hard walling isn't even that amazing as with SR up it's switching into hurricane once. You also cant check it the same way as lilligant in plenty of cases, things like Vileplume and random sap sipper mons aren't just easy counters. I cant imagine this is dropping

 

[Kiyo]

Yeah for the record vivillon's sleep powder is 97% accurate and hurricane is 91%. Id say those numbers are pretty reliable.

Also u-turn and endeavor vivi should play differently and do perform different roles, so i dont get that argument.

Vivillons biggest issue is in finding set up opportunities, from the way you guys are talking about it, it seems like youre saying it fails to secure sweeps for some reason, which i find absurd.

Im on mobile or id post more, but i just didnt agree with those points whatsoever and would like to see some more discussion

 

[Disjunction]

Pinsir and Granbull have been removed as they have both risen in usage :)

 

[Mysil]

I dont understand why carracosta is in A-. Should be B or B-. It is outclassed by barbaracle as a shell smasher and outclassed by rhydon as a check to normal and fire types.

Zangoose is too high aswell imo. Its speed is just too lackluster when you have options like tauros, it doesnt hit as hard but speed is way more important in this meta. Zangoose was good in BW when you had to break through tangela and alomomola, but in this gen it seems to always dissapoint. It does good against teams that are very slow and bulky, but even then you have to predict right with facade and close combat because the opponent is probably going to try to wear you down with toxic damage and pivoting into stuff like ferroseed and rhydon to make you take toxic and iron barbs damage. Tauros has fire blast for ferroseed and can live an eq from rhydon, and iron head/eq is a 3hko/4hko if I remember correctly. Imo it should be B or B-

Prinplup is a very solid defogger and check to physical attackers in general and can also switch into fire types atleast once. Should be A

I think Jumpluff should move to B+ because of its speed and access to sleep and SD. It cleans consistently if youre able too get rid of steels and priority users like shiftry.

And tbh the same thing counts for raichu. Its basically a special jumpluff. it can boost with NP and has the same speed stat. Its more difficult for it to set up because it doesnt have a sleep inducing move. But it is more powerful in return basically killing everything in one shot after a nasty plot boost. So if you manage to get rid of priority users and very specially bulky mons like hariyama it should be able to win the game. C is just criminally low. Id put it in B because its splashability is pretty bad. Its a hard pokemon to build around.

 

[kay]

The thing about Carracosta as a SR setter is that unlike Rhydon, it has Solid Rock which lets it take random grass coverage better, it has the ability to run a different move pool with things like prioirty, knock off, and toxic. It also has a different set of resists from Rhydon such as resisting ice and not being weak to water.
As a SS user it has the ability to go special, mixed, or physical and has access to priority. Solid rock also plays a role because mixed with its natural bulk it allows Carra to set up easier then Barb is able to. There is also a few more item sets you can run such as Sturdy + WP, Solid rock + LO, and just the classic white herb.

Prin is honestly too reliant on Eviolite and lacks any recovery which really is too much of a crippling weakness to bring it as a top tiered mon.

I actually agree with Jumpluff moving up as it's an offensive flying type that beats Rhydon and Lanturn, good speed tier and sleep allows it to mess with a lot of teams, a good move pool ranging from SD to a utility set with Memento, and the ability for it to take knock offs like a champ due to having no item.

And lastly I think B is really too high for something like Raichu seeing as we have so many better electric types in the Rotoms. NP is a really hard set to pull off as it has no safe way of setting up and is prone to being revenge killed really easily with the use of priority due to its low bulk. Over all those I think it could see a rise to /maybe/ C+, but B is just too high for what it offers. What it brings is a move pool made to mess with a lot of common electric resists/ immunizes which I think is valuable enough consider it for a potential C+.

 

[Stoned M&M]

I dont understand why carracosta is in A-. Should be B or B-. It is outclassed by barbaracle as a shell smasher and outclassed by rhydon as a check to normal and fire types.

Zangoose is too high aswell imo. Its speed is just too lackluster when you have options like tauros, it doesnt hit as hard but speed is way more important in this meta. Zangoose was good in BW when you had to break through tangela and alomomola, but in this gen it seems to always dissapoint. It does good against teams that are very slow and bulky, but even then you have to predict right with facade and close combat because the opponent is probably going to try to wear you down with toxic damage and pivoting into stuff like ferroseed and rhydon to make you take toxic and iron barbs damage. Tauros has fire blast for ferroseed and can live an eq from rhydon, and iron head/eq is a 3hko/4hko if I remember correctly. Imo it should be B or B-

Prinplup is a very solid defogger and check to physical attackers in general and can also switch into fire types atleast once. Should be A

I think Jumpluff should move to B+ because of its speed and access to sleep and SD. It cleans consistently if youre able too get rid of steels and priority users like shiftry.

And tbh the same thing counts for raichu. Its basically a special jumpluff. it can boost with NP and has the same speed stat. Its more difficult for it to set up because it doesnt have a sleep inducing move. But it is more powerful in return basically killing everything in one shot after a nasty plot boost. So if you manage to get rid of priority users and very specially bulky mons like hariyama it should be able to win the game. C is just criminally low. Id put it in B because its splashability is pretty bad. Its a hard pokemon to build around.

Carracosta isn't outclassed by Barbaracle as a smasher or Rhydon as a rocker. Carracosta has a niche as a rocker because its a more reliable flying resist, being able to beat the premier flying type in Archeops (Aqua Tail is fsr more common than HP Grass) while also having passive recovery. As a Shell Smasher Carracosta can still outspeed everything relevant (up to base 110s if jolly), and the few things it doesn't outspeed die to an Aqua Jet, besides Floatzel. Carracosta also has nore access to Life Orb due to Solid Rock, while Barbaracle tends to use a resist berry to set up on things Carracosta already can, also just going to throw in the fact that Jolly Carracosta can Aqua Jet to avoid Encore from Liepard.
I don't have much knowledge of the other nominated Pokemon, so I can't say much, but Raichu being B rank seems pretty farfetched since we now live in a very priority heavy meta, and I also doubt that Raichu can do much to the common Lanturn (on mobile so too lazy to calc lol).

 

[Machineae]

The reason why Pluff is good rn is because it out speeds everything it wants to bop/sleep with its STABs and SP respectively. Being able to hit common shit like Sawk, Don, Lilligant, Lanturn, etc is pretty damn significant in this meta+anything it can't handle offensively to will just sleep. It's STABs are just really good right now, whereas Raichu doesn't really do all that much. It can't easily set up, encore is nowhere near as effective as SP for setting up and electric stab isn't as useful.

+2 FB (or hp grass, not GK) hits Lanturn real hard but you still have to boost+hit it

 

[Mysil]

Sir Kay the points youve made make sense. But if you look into it they arent true.

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 214-253 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if you want a rocker that checks fire types rhydon actually takes them on a little better than carracosta.

And tbh both of them are terrible switch ins to fire types anyway. I would never use sp defensive rhydon, and i would never use sp defensive carracosta either. I you want a rock type that takes on normal and fire types. Use regirock

The damage outputs on both rhydon and carracosta are usually very similiar. And they both have ways to be offensive powerhouses in SS and double dance. The thing is that ground/rock coverage coming from a 130 base attack stat so much more threatening than what carracosta has to offer. Switching in on defensive carracosta is very easy while switching in on rhydon can often be problematic.

Offensive rhydon still works well as a normal check while offensive carracosta does not take eqs from tauros and kangaskhan well at all. Because of this DD rhydon can be used several times throughout the game while carracosta only has one opportunity to get a free switch and set up. If it doesnt get that opportunity its simply dead weight.

The only reason I would use Carracosta is the SS set with aqua jet set, but its splashability is terrible and I would use Rhydon over Carracosta 99% of the time.
And if SS carracosta fits my team, chanses are barbaracle can fill that role just as well

Also. Raichu beats lanturn if it hits 2 focus blasts

 

[Stoned M&M]

Sir Kay the points youve made make sense. But if you look into it they arent true.

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solid Rock Carracosta: 214-253 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers

252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So if you want a rocker that checks fire types rhydon actually takes them on a little better than carracosta.

And tbh both of them are terrible switch ins to fire types anyway. I would never use sp defensive rhydon, and i would never use sp defensive carracosta either.

The damage outputs on both rhydon and carracosta are usually very similiar. And they both have ways to be offensive powerhouses in SS and double dance. The thing is that ground/rock coverage coming from a 130 base attack stat so much more threatening than what carracosta has to offer. Switching in on defensive carracosta is very easy while switching in on rhydon can often be problematic.

Offensive rhydon still works well as a normal check while offensive carracosta does not take eqs from tauros and kangaskhan well at all. Because of this DD rhydon can be used several times throughout the game while carracosta only has one opportunity to get a free switch and set up. If it doesnt get that opportunity its simply dead weight.

The only reason I would use Carracosta is the SS set with aqua jet set, but its splashability is terrible and I would use Rhydon over Carracosta 99% of the time.
And if SS carracosta fits my team, chanses are barbaracle can fill that role just as well

Also. Raichu beats lanturn if it hits 2 focus blasts

Rhydon only tanks EQs slightly better than Carracosta iirc. Either way, they can both set up on Tauros and Kangaskhan, however, while Rhydon either chooses to click SD or RP, Carracosta doa both at the same time, while also having a Life Orb to make it even stronger, and a lot of teams don't really have things that want to take a +2 LO Stone Edge or Waterfall. The things you mentioned like defensive Carracosta being easy to switch into and Rhydon is much harder to switch into is only somewhat true, since a lot of things don't want to risk a Scald burn or being Knock Offed, and other things you mentioned are reasons why Carracosta is A- and Rhydon is at S.

Edit: I'm in agreement with a small rise for Raichu (C or C+), but if this happens I think Zebstrika should get a boost too.