Fair enough, but then why are they on the same ranking? Also I don't think it should drop, raise huntail if anything; they are both good.
Regardless, thanks for explaining both of you
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Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings
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Regardless, thanks for explaining both of you
I also agree that Huntail should be higher than Gorebyss. As far as the Smash-Passer role goes, which is the main reason you would use huntail or gorebyss to begin with, Huntail is without a doubt better. Huntail gets sucker punch and super fang which Gorebyss doesn't get and is also immune to burns with water veil meaning it laughs at scald.
I appreciate people who go out of their way to try innovative sets, it makes the meta more interesting and your post is incredibly thorough as well. But unfortunately what you are proposing is completely outclassed by Thick Fat Miltank. Both are mono normal types with thick fat except Miltank has instant recovery in milk drink in one moveslot, isn't ridiculously slow (is quite speedy actually), has better utility moves (heal bell, stealth rock, thunder wave, seismic toss), and being hit by a knock off isn't detrimental for Miltank. Whirlwind is pretty nifty on a special wall like that, but without it you are set up fodder if you don't get a body slam para.I don't post much on the forums, and I never posted in a viability rankings thread, so this nomination might be wrong :x
I'd like to nominate Munchlax for D rank, it's a decent special wall and it has a pretty good niche in the tier as it counters fire spam and a lot of special attackers.
Some examples of what it can deal with:
S Rank: Typhlosion and Mega Camerupt
A Rank: Lilligant, Xatu, Jynx, Nasty Plot Mismagius, Seismitoad, Special Carracosta, Magmortar (Low Kick/Cross Chop bops it though), Ludicolo, Ninetales, Pyroar and Vivillon(?)
B Rank: Cryogonal, Gorebyss(Modest Hydro Pump at +2 does a lot though), Lanturn and Aurorus
C Rank: Chatot (pray you don't hit yourself in the confusion), Kadabra, Rotom-Frost (make sure it doesn't trick you), Articuno, Special Frogadier, Regice
If you think anything I said there is wrong, correct me please :]
The Psychic types on the list are only completely stopped if they don't carry Psyshock, but I think most of them prefer Psychic instead.
Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Slam
- Whirlwind / Fire Punch / Earthquake / Thunder Punch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
That is probably Munchlax' main set, specially defensive Resttalk, Body Slam gives it a way of paralyzing the opponents, what is nice for it's teammates (it can't outspeed paralyzed stuff, though, as it's so slow). Resttalk gives it recovery so walling stuff will be relevant at least while the other move is what your team needs. Whirlwind gives it a way of removing set up sweepers from it's face, Fire Punch makes it able to hit Ice, Grass and Bug types it can stop, Earthquake can make it do some damage to Rock and Steel types, and Thunder Punch, while it might look like weird coverage, can stop a lot of stuff it stops for super effective damage. A physically defensive spread could be decent to deal with physical coverage moves and Psyshock better, but I think it will be less effective than fully special defensive invested, but not sure about that as I didn't run a lot of calcs to prove that.
To be honest though I would like to see Miltank rise a bit. Its Specially defensive Thick fat set takes on most of the fire spam in the tier and its specially defensive set with sap sipper takes on most of the sleep powder sweepers in the tier.
But (hue) real talk, Gorebyss is still a decent enough specially based sweeper that can also function as a baton passer, as a straight up Shell Smasher Gorebyss is a bit outclassed by Huntail, but there are other factors that affect its rank.
boltsandbombers hit the nail on the head. Good typing for checking Fire-types as well as power with a Choice Band, does a lot more than Munchlax.
Zweilous has better resistances, namely to Grass, Fire, Psychic, and Electric, types shared by most of the relevant special attackers in the tier (Typhlosion and especially Exeggutor come to mind). It is also one of defensive teams' better stops to Xatu, as it not only threatens super effective Crunch, but is one of the few Pokemon capable of phasing it courtesy of Dragon Tail.
Gorebyss's remaining niche as a SmashPasser over Huntail is that it boasts a stronger Hidden Power to smack Haze users with, particularly Mantine. That said, Qwilfish has left NU, Mantine has become slightly less relevant, and Cryogonal dies much more easily to Huntail, so this niche has substantially diminished.
Samurott to A+: Gonna make this quick. Since Feraligatr was banned, all of it's sets got better, and it does almost the exact same thing as torrent gatr does, but better because of Megahorn, which completely demolishes things like Malamar and the like. Raise that otter to A+
I agree with bumping up Flareon and Furfrou a little bit, but Wobbuffet is terrible and Luxray is alright. Yes, it has Counter and Mirror Coat, but the opponent can just switch out against it.
Furfrou is a cool offensive pivot with U-turn and Thunder Wave. Flareon is better with Feraligatr out of the metagame, but Curse seems sketchy. Choice Band is still good, and it is one of the very few counters to Typhlosion and Magmortar with reliable recovery. Carracosta is better in this metagame though as one of the few offensive answers to Kangaskhan and Archeops on the tier, but it still isn't being used that much for some reason.
e: Munchlax is also probably much better than Zweilous tbh lol. Yeah it's a bit more passive, but it takes on a whole lot more because it has considerably better bulk. It also never misses, which is important on stall. The problem is that every Psychic type carries coverage to hit Malamar, which leaves them usually more than capable of handling it. Zweilous honestly usually only handles Typhlosion because Focus Blast is still on a pretty decent amount of Magmortar.
Furfrou is a cool offensive pivot with U-turn and Thunder Wave. Flareon is better with Feraligatr out of the metagame, but Curse seems sketchy. Choice Band is still good, and it is one of the very few counters to Typhlosion and Magmortar with reliable recovery. Carracosta is better in this metagame though as one of the few offensive answers to Kangaskhan and Archeops on the tier, but it still isn't being used that much for some reason.
e: Munchlax is also probably much better than Zweilous tbh lol. Yeah it's a bit more passive, but it takes on a whole lot more because it has considerably better bulk. It also never misses, which is important on stall. The problem is that every Psychic type carries coverage to hit Malamar, which leaves them usually more than capable of handling it. Zweilous honestly usually only handles Typhlosion because Focus Blast is still on a pretty decent amount of Magmortar.
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<@Felix> [12:44:52] <tennisace> felix
<@Felix> [12:45:00] <tennisace> why is tauros B+ in the nu viability rankings
<@Felix> because everybody keeps asking me this
<@Felix> but nobody is nominating it
ok seriously Tauros is an A-rank Pokemon: there isn't much of anything that can actually switch into it repeatedly now that Steelix is gone aside from Rhydon. It hits super hard, has excellent coverage, and its speed tier is excellent for what it does (the only mon it doesn't outspeed is Archeops, and it ties with it). I'd honestly put it in A+ because I think it's easier to use on offense than a few things in A, but it deffo needs to move up to at least A.
<@Felix> [12:45:00] <tennisace> why is tauros B+ in the nu viability rankings
<@Felix> because everybody keeps asking me this
<@Felix> but nobody is nominating it
ok seriously Tauros is an A-rank Pokemon: there isn't much of anything that can actually switch into it repeatedly now that Steelix is gone aside from Rhydon. It hits super hard, has excellent coverage, and its speed tier is excellent for what it does (the only mon it doesn't outspeed is Archeops, and it ties with it). I'd honestly put it in A+ because I think it's easier to use on offense than a few things in A, but it deffo needs to move up to at least A.
K so let's talk about some (somewhat) easy moves I'm seeing.
Dodrio to C+
Seriously this mon does not belong in C- in this metagame. Hits harder than Swellow with CB, has access to pursuit and knock off, has few switch-ins, cleans teams easily with base 100 speed, has very few switch-ins w/ band (aside from bulky steels and rock types, and crodino bc crodino is bulky af[only physical attacker that ohkoes it unboosted is banded dragalge lol] nothing wants to switch into this), forces a ton of switches it can abuse with said pursuit, and it doesn't need a turn to set-up an orb and isn't taking orb recoil every turn. It's devastatingly powerful and also utilizes one of the best offensive typings in the game in flying(flying types are so good in this tier rn too). Even if it suffers with some competition with Swellow, it still has many niches it can shine in. Also yes, Swellow does learn Pursuit, but not only does CB Dodrio utilize it better and hit harder with it, it doesn't have to drop an important move to use it.
Some quick calcs(nice 10% difference on the same move in Dodrio's favour)
Golem to C+
Custap's back, this thing has some actual niches now and isn't completely outclassed by Rhydon. Do I really need to explain this further?
Muk to B-
With (Mega) Steelix (and Qwilfish I suppose), Muk has gotten a lot more effective. Both band and av sets work well for it, as base 105 attack + gunk shot is nothing to sleep on, and hits like a truck, plus Muk also has solid coverage and a priority move. Poison Touch is a great ability and helps Muk to whittle down any switch-ins that aren't poison/steel type *cough* Rhydon and Seismitoad *cough*, while it's great special bulk allows it to sponge a ton of hits already, plus with av it becomes a specially defensive god.
Also to start some discussion because I doubt anyone cares much about 3 mons nobody uses, what would you guys think about Uxie, Kangaskhan, Hariyama, or Mega Audino to S rank?
Uxie, while perhaps not as versatile as it's sibling legend Mesprit, can run a variety of sets, sponge a variety of hits, and provides tons of support for teams. Offensive CM, Sub CM, screens, sr, physical defense, you name it, an uxie can do it. U-turn's also really nice for grabbing momentum and things like T-wave or Knock Off can help it to wear down and cripple the opposing team.
Kangaskhan was S rank for a reason back in XY, and with even normal steelix out of the tier, it's probably better than ever. It hits like a truck with double-edge, has very few safe counters because of the amount of coverage moves it gets(fire punch, drain punch, aqua tail, and earthquake bop tons of stuff), has dual priority to revenge tons of stuff, and also has decent bulk. Scrappy is an amazing abillity, allowing it to smack all but two types neutrally with it's powerful double-edges. It can also even run an av set effectively.
Hariyama is indisputably one of the most important and one of, if not the most common NU mon out there. It's by far the best user of av in the tier, by far the best fire stop in the tier, and probably the best tank in the tier too. It stacks up well against common mons like Typh/M-Rupt, gets a bunch of useful coverage moves(knock off, eq, heavy slam, thunder punch, etc) to beat a ton of switch-ins, beats most of the special attackers in the tier, has priority, hits decently hard with 120 attack and close combat, and is probably one of the easiest mons to place on a team in NU. It does it's job very well, and despite being somewhat one dimensional in this role, can also run a few other tricks, such as cb or guts, to bypass things that would normally be problematic for standard hariyama. Hariyama is a crucial part of the NU metagame, and it quite simply works well. To quote the S rank description, "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support". Sounds like what an AV Hariyama does to me.
Mega Audino, cited by most as by far the worst mega at the beginning of ORAS, and expected to be NU by about everyone as soon as we heard it had Healer. That being said, it is in no way, shape or form bad. Not only does Audino have surprise factor, it is all but unkillable in it's standard Crodino set. Have I mentioned that the only unboosted physical attacker that OHKOes it is CB Adaptability Dragalge? Aside from the typical Crodino you can do things like wish cm, cm 3 attacks, heck you can probably run a decent wishpass set thanks to how bulky Mega Audino is, and only mega evolve when you need the bulk. It certainly has a fair sure of checks in steel types and poison types, but it's still a major threat to most teams and can take advantage of a lot of pokemon to start dropping some calm minds and devastating teams.
Dodrio to C+
Seriously this mon does not belong in C- in this metagame. Hits harder than Swellow with CB, has access to pursuit and knock off, has few switch-ins, cleans teams easily with base 100 speed, has very few switch-ins w/ band (aside from bulky steels and rock types, and crodino bc crodino is bulky af[only physical attacker that ohkoes it unboosted is banded dragalge lol] nothing wants to switch into this), forces a ton of switches it can abuse with said pursuit, and it doesn't need a turn to set-up an orb and isn't taking orb recoil every turn. It's devastatingly powerful and also utilizes one of the best offensive typings in the game in flying(flying types are so good in this tier rn too). Even if it suffers with some competition with Swellow, it still has many niches it can shine in. Also yes, Swellow does learn Pursuit, but not only does CB Dodrio utilize it better and hit harder with it, it doesn't have to drop an important move to use it.
Some quick calcs(nice 10% difference on the same move in Dodrio's favour)
Have I mentioned that this thing can also run other sets? Sub endeavor, scarf, sharp beak, heck, wp endure flail. This thing's got a lot of untapped potential imo, and it's certainly a lot more effective than Metang or Volbeat..
Golem to C+
Custap's back, this thing has some actual niches now and isn't completely outclassed by Rhydon. Do I really need to explain this further?
Muk to B-
With (Mega) Steelix (and Qwilfish I suppose), Muk has gotten a lot more effective. Both band and av sets work well for it, as base 105 attack + gunk shot is nothing to sleep on, and hits like a truck, plus Muk also has solid coverage and a priority move. Poison Touch is a great ability and helps Muk to whittle down any switch-ins that aren't poison/steel type *cough* Rhydon and Seismitoad *cough*, while it's great special bulk allows it to sponge a ton of hits already, plus with av it becomes a specially defensive god.
It also kind of destroys Crodino with both sets, which is nice. Even if it does struggle with certain mons, depending on what moves/set you're running, it can bop a lot of things you might not expect.
Not to mention resistances to common grass and fighting moves and a nice gg to lilligant.
Also to start some discussion because I doubt anyone cares much about 3 mons nobody uses, what would you guys think about Uxie, Kangaskhan, Hariyama, or Mega Audino to S rank?
Uxie, while perhaps not as versatile as it's sibling legend Mesprit, can run a variety of sets, sponge a variety of hits, and provides tons of support for teams. Offensive CM, Sub CM, screens, sr, physical defense, you name it, an uxie can do it. U-turn's also really nice for grabbing momentum and things like T-wave or Knock Off can help it to wear down and cripple the opposing team.
Kangaskhan was S rank for a reason back in XY, and with even normal steelix out of the tier, it's probably better than ever. It hits like a truck with double-edge, has very few safe counters because of the amount of coverage moves it gets(fire punch, drain punch, aqua tail, and earthquake bop tons of stuff), has dual priority to revenge tons of stuff, and also has decent bulk. Scrappy is an amazing abillity, allowing it to smack all but two types neutrally with it's powerful double-edges. It can also even run an av set effectively.
Hariyama is indisputably one of the most important and one of, if not the most common NU mon out there. It's by far the best user of av in the tier, by far the best fire stop in the tier, and probably the best tank in the tier too. It stacks up well against common mons like Typh/M-Rupt, gets a bunch of useful coverage moves(knock off, eq, heavy slam, thunder punch, etc) to beat a ton of switch-ins, beats most of the special attackers in the tier, has priority, hits decently hard with 120 attack and close combat, and is probably one of the easiest mons to place on a team in NU. It does it's job very well, and despite being somewhat one dimensional in this role, can also run a few other tricks, such as cb or guts, to bypass things that would normally be problematic for standard hariyama. Hariyama is a crucial part of the NU metagame, and it quite simply works well. To quote the S rank description, "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support". Sounds like what an AV Hariyama does to me.
Mega Audino, cited by most as by far the worst mega at the beginning of ORAS, and expected to be NU by about everyone as soon as we heard it had Healer. That being said, it is in no way, shape or form bad. Not only does Audino have surprise factor, it is all but unkillable in it's standard Crodino set. Have I mentioned that the only unboosted physical attacker that OHKOes it is CB Adaptability Dragalge? Aside from the typical Crodino you can do things like wish cm, cm 3 attacks, heck you can probably run a decent wishpass set thanks to how bulky Mega Audino is, and only mega evolve when you need the bulk. It certainly has a fair sure of checks in steel types and poison types, but it's still a major threat to most teams and can take advantage of a lot of pokemon to start dropping some calm minds and devastating teams.
Hariyama doesn't wall things as much as hard check them. It is pretty easily worn down throughout a match due to its inability to recover health. This is the main thing that holds it back from S rank. (Can't post more cause on my phone)
True but lets not forget that the things it walls are weak to rocks( fire and ice) and between Fake out and bullet punch the target gets worn down faster than Hariyama does. The 'worn down' fast agrument can be used if only Hariyama has to check multiple pokemon on a same team but then again it can be remedied with healing wish/ wish support. But I agree though Hariyama is fine in A+.
This thread has been filled with rising nominations after all the tier changes so I thought I would make some nominations to drop which I think are fitting post tier changes.
B+ -> B
Montesgur originally suggested Poliwrath's rise to B+ to help check Dragon Dance Feraligatr which I completely agreed with but Feraligatr is gone now. Poliwrath helps still checks many of the strong Water/Ice/Dark attackers in the tier but it is generally underwhelming. Lack of reliable recovery hurts it a lot, subpar stats hurts it a lot. It is a strong pokemon but there is no denying it primarily rose because of the dominance of Feraligatr and Feraligatr alone. I would not put it on the level of other B+ mons that are consistently better Vileplume, Crustle, Zangoose, Tauros. Also Samurott gets grass knot to get past Poliwrath so Poliwrath doesn't check Samurott nearly as well as Feraligatr.
B -> B-
I was one of the initial people asking for Jumpluff to be listed as I think it without a doubt retains a niche in NU but I never intended for it to be this high nor should it be. It is just not on the level of other B mons to put it simply. Yes it is really fast but it has to boost up with swords dance to do any significant damage and even then you are working off of Base 55 attack. It fights for competition with other sleep powder set up sweepers who are better in most situations Lilligant, Vivillon, etc. And because Jumpluff can not boost its speed it is revenge killed by many common scarfers in the tier. It also doesn't appreciate Sneasel's rise in usage as it outspeeds and ohkos regardless. It still holds a noticeable niche but it doesn't deserve to be ranked so high.
C- -> D+
If Mega Steelix's ban was the only change to NU metang probably would have risen but we also got Mawile which unfortunately for this hunk of metal here means it is outclassed in practically everyway. I think Metang holds a niche in the tier albeit small but it doesn't have many defining elements as to why you would use it over other steel types in the tier. It doesn't have the set up capabilities of Klinglang and doesn't hit nearly hard enough unboosted to be considered good. It doesn't even secure the 2hko on Max HP Mega Audino.
252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Audino: 186-218 (45.3 - 53.1%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO
D+ -> Unranked
Alright...why in the world is this thing ranked. I am bewildered at why this thing is listed. I asked before in this very thread for why it was ranked and got no response. In my long time playing NU I have never seen a single person in NU ever once use a Scraggy. I have Ctrl F-d every page of this thread and Scraggy was mentioned 3 times. The first time was by me myself asking why it was ranked and the other 2 were people using it to bolster there reasoning why another mon should be ranked higher saying X should be higher because it is so much better than Scraggy and Y. A strong Dark and Fighting type attacker role is outclassed by Malamar. A bulky eviolite shed skin rest set is not nearly bulky enough to be considered viable (and is once again completely outclassed by Rest Sleep talk malamar).What possible niche does this pokemon hold that I would even remotely consider using it over the numerous other strong fighting type attackers in the tier.
I also agree with the rise of Tauros and Dodrio.
Montesgur originally suggested Poliwrath's rise to B+ to help check Dragon Dance Feraligatr which I completely agreed with but Feraligatr is gone now. Poliwrath helps still checks many of the strong Water/Ice/Dark attackers in the tier but it is generally underwhelming. Lack of reliable recovery hurts it a lot, subpar stats hurts it a lot. It is a strong pokemon but there is no denying it primarily rose because of the dominance of Feraligatr and Feraligatr alone. I would not put it on the level of other B+ mons that are consistently better Vileplume, Crustle, Zangoose, Tauros. Also Samurott gets grass knot to get past Poliwrath so Poliwrath doesn't check Samurott nearly as well as Feraligatr.
I was one of the initial people asking for Jumpluff to be listed as I think it without a doubt retains a niche in NU but I never intended for it to be this high nor should it be. It is just not on the level of other B mons to put it simply. Yes it is really fast but it has to boost up with swords dance to do any significant damage and even then you are working off of Base 55 attack. It fights for competition with other sleep powder set up sweepers who are better in most situations Lilligant, Vivillon, etc. And because Jumpluff can not boost its speed it is revenge killed by many common scarfers in the tier. It also doesn't appreciate Sneasel's rise in usage as it outspeeds and ohkos regardless. It still holds a noticeable niche but it doesn't deserve to be ranked so high.
If Mega Steelix's ban was the only change to NU metang probably would have risen but we also got Mawile which unfortunately for this hunk of metal here means it is outclassed in practically everyway. I think Metang holds a niche in the tier albeit small but it doesn't have many defining elements as to why you would use it over other steel types in the tier. It doesn't have the set up capabilities of Klinglang and doesn't hit nearly hard enough unboosted to be considered good. It doesn't even secure the 2hko on Max HP Mega Audino.
252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Audino: 186-218 (45.3 - 53.1%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO
Alright...why in the world is this thing ranked. I am bewildered at why this thing is listed. I asked before in this very thread for why it was ranked and got no response. In my long time playing NU I have never seen a single person in NU ever once use a Scraggy. I have Ctrl F-d every page of this thread and Scraggy was mentioned 3 times. The first time was by me myself asking why it was ranked and the other 2 were people using it to bolster there reasoning why another mon should be ranked higher saying X should be higher because it is so much better than Scraggy and Y. A strong Dark and Fighting type attacker role is outclassed by Malamar. A bulky eviolite shed skin rest set is not nearly bulky enough to be considered viable (and is once again completely outclassed by Rest Sleep talk malamar).What possible niche does this pokemon hold that I would even remotely consider using it over the numerous other strong fighting type attackers in the tier.
I also agree with the rise of Tauros and Dodrio.
Metang's main niche, I believe is a defensive stealth rocker. While Mawile can do this I guess, its best set is really an offensive one with swords dance, and metang has more physical bulk even factoring in intimidate:
160+ Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 84-100 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 160+ Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO
(just used Abomasnow since too lazy to change damagecalc)
Metang is also slightly more powerful with its steel STAB:
0 Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 218-258 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I mean I'm not saying Metang is amazing, it just works better than Mawile as a defensive steel for setting rocks. That being said, it's usually better to run Ferroseed, who has Iron Barbs, Spikes, Leech Seed and isn't as weak to Knock Off.
160+ Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 84-100 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 160+ Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 94-112 (30.9 - 36.8%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO
(just used Abomasnow since too lazy to change damagecalc)
Metang is also slightly more powerful with its steel STAB:
0 Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 218-258 (67.4 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 212-252 (65.6 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I mean I'm not saying Metang is amazing, it just works better than Mawile as a defensive steel for setting rocks. That being said, it's usually better to run Ferroseed, who has Iron Barbs, Spikes, Leech Seed and isn't as weak to Knock Off.
Why Mention Abomasnow when it's not NU xD
It's just used to easily show calcs; as Abomasnow has equal offences and equal defences -- this makes it easier to show what is objectively stronger and what is objectively bulkier. It's just for a matter of comparison is all.
Mawile makes up for this by actually having an offensive presence once it has set up rocks. It has the ability to run other items, like Leftovers. Which actually makes a significant difference, since it changes a chance to 3HKO into a 4HKO(in this hypothetical situation of Abomasnow v. Mawile). Plus, like you said, Ferroseed totally beats it as a hazard setter, with a better ability and better supportive movepool. KnightK makes a good point; the only reason Metang gained some popularity and viability at the start of ORAS was because of all the new megas that were introduced. Now that most of those are gone, it has fallen back into obscurity. D+ sounds perfect for it.
Also, can someone explain to me why Riachu is higher than Zebstrika? This is a legitimate question, if I sound sassy, just ignore it, cause I'm actually just curious. Zebstrika can outspeed Archeops without a Scarf, which is huge right now. I don't know if that merits much, but I find it really useful and think it gives it a solid niche on teams that are weak to Archeops. Just gonna discretely nominate Zebstrika ---> C+
I agree with the rise for Zebstrika. It's godly speed is a huge merit, even out speeding the likes of Sneasel. Works well with life orb and and choice items partcially Specs. Overheat is a nice tool which sets it apart from the other electric types and lighting rod/sap sipper can come in handy. HP Grass/Water can be used to hit ground types that may try to stop you like Rhydon, Camerupt, Toad, Quagsire and more. Specs is my favourite set.
I haven't played NU in a while, so I'm not quite sure how the metagame is now, but Raichu was at least better before because of its wide movepool making it difficult to switch into and good at providing momentum. The combination of Volt Switch + Knock Off + Surf / Grass Knot / Focus Blast coverage is just really effective for Raichu.
I can see Zeb's excellent 116 base speed becoming a factor for a raise, however, because of Archeops as you mentioned, but it doesn't seem to outspeed many other common Pokemon in the tier aside from Sneasel, seeing as things like Tauros, Raichu, Swoobat and Purugly have low usage. Besides, Raichu's 110 base speed is still awesome.
Mmm, it naturally outspeed Archeops, Sneasel, and Tauros(which despite not seeing a lot of usage has been receiving a lot of support for a rise to A- or higher, so that's actually really relevant. If you look at tennisace's post up above, he thinks it should be higher than A-, so there's that). Being able to naturally outspeed all of them and OHKO two of them, and doing over 50% with Volt Switch on the third, is kinda a pretty big deal. Raichu, on the other hand, has to forgo Choice Specs or Life Orb in order to pick up a Choice Scarf to outspeed them. This means it loses out on damage and it loses out on some of the utility moves that it gets.
And, for realsies, I see Sneasel and Archeops on tons of teams, so a Pokemon that can straight outspeed and OHKO both of them is really nice.
hi, I'd like to make a nomination of my own that I think a lot of people will agree on
B+ --> A/A+
After Steelix left the tier, I think Klinklang is on the path to success as a serious threat in NU. Klinklang has a very short list of Pokemon in the tier that can switch in reliably and beat it one on one with, limited mainly to bulky Water-types, Mega Camerupt, Weezing, and Rotom. All of these are easily whittled due to their shaky or lack of recovery. I, personally, have found building Offense and even Balance very scary with the thought of Klinklang in the back of my head. At +2 you outspeed just about every relevant Choice Scarf user with bulk to spare, at +1 attack you're terrifying to switch into, and on top of it all, you have enough freedom to run a very respectable amount of bulk. Sing praises of offensive Steel-types, they're awesome right now.
I also agree with a rise of
from C --> C+/B-
Being above the base 110 base speed mark is incredible in this averagely slow meta, its coverage is almost flawless since you can pick between Hidden Power Grass or Water just as viably as the other to suit your team, and supporting the VoltTurn cores is great. Being able to choose from an immunity to grass and an immunity to electric is also very nice to pick and choose your switch ins. Very under-rated mon right now.
A+ --> S
The rise of the normal-types is here and kangaskhan is the mother of them all. Sporting some of the best priority in the tier and a powerful, Scrappy Double-edge, and a bunch of coverage options to pick and choose what you need to beat, Kangaskhan is one of the most defining faces of current NU. Normal-types in general are just exceptional right now. Nowadays, I find it's rare that Kangaskhan doesn't pressure someone's team in some way or do little work in a match.
After Steelix left the tier, I think Klinklang is on the path to success as a serious threat in NU. Klinklang has a very short list of Pokemon in the tier that can switch in reliably and beat it one on one with, limited mainly to bulky Water-types, Mega Camerupt, Weezing, and Rotom. All of these are easily whittled due to their shaky or lack of recovery. I, personally, have found building Offense and even Balance very scary with the thought of Klinklang in the back of my head. At +2 you outspeed just about every relevant Choice Scarf user with bulk to spare, at +1 attack you're terrifying to switch into, and on top of it all, you have enough freedom to run a very respectable amount of bulk. Sing praises of offensive Steel-types, they're awesome right now.
I also agree with a rise of
Being above the base 110 base speed mark is incredible in this averagely slow meta, its coverage is almost flawless since you can pick between Hidden Power Grass or Water just as viably as the other to suit your team, and supporting the VoltTurn cores is great. Being able to choose from an immunity to grass and an immunity to electric is also very nice to pick and choose your switch ins. Very under-rated mon right now.
The rise of the normal-types is here and kangaskhan is the mother of them all. Sporting some of the best priority in the tier and a powerful, Scrappy Double-edge, and a bunch of coverage options to pick and choose what you need to beat, Kangaskhan is one of the most defining faces of current NU. Normal-types in general are just exceptional right now. Nowadays, I find it's rare that Kangaskhan doesn't pressure someone's team in some way or do little work in a match.
Just wanting to spark some discussion: is Samurott good enough to rise up to A+? It has a fantastic matchup against many top threats in NU (can easily deal with all S-Rankers safe Thunderbolt Mesprit), possesses good 100/108 offenses, has access to enough coverage and is capable of running several effective offensive sets. Its meh Speed and average special bulk set it back and limit its switch-in opportunities, but I do think Samurott is good enough to be ranked among the rest of A+.
I don't agree with dropping Metang to D. Mawile's existence does nothing to hurt to viability of Metang. Even though its defensive typing is almost strictly better, Metang is better at beating bulky Psychic-types like Musharna and Uxie, and it can be used offensively without taking tons of damage from weak neutral hits. Defensively, Mawile is much better outside of beating CM Psychics, but offensively, it really depends on what your team needs. Metang just makes for a much better offensive pivot.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Malamar has become a huge threat with the introduction of ORAS, notably gaining the powerful move of Knock Off (Finally!!). This mon is one of the most dangerous setup sweepers in NU right now, and now with Virizion and Mega Lix gone, it became even more powerful. All you have to do is set up a sub and start spamming powerful Superpowers
+1 252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 360-426 (119.2 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 224-266 (63.2 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Malamar Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 408-480 (82.9 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 229-271 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 155-183 (45 - 53.1%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 236-278 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It also becomes more bulky after setting up some Superpowers...
252 Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 138-163 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 154-183 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 129-153 (34.3 - 40.6%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 247-292 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Although it does have some nice counters and checks in the form of Mawile and defensive Mega Audino and lackluster speed which limits S-Rank. I find A+ is quite deserving for this mon. It fits in with all the other A+ mons anyways
A warning is that Signal Beam Psychics are disgustingly common. I'd say Malamar is a victim of its own success and should not rise. Sure, it is metagame-defining, but with Signal Beam everywhere, it can and will die.
Malamar is countered by Signal Beam variants of Uxie and Mespirit, no matter what, is checked by everything with U-Turn and everything else with Signal Beam - which is a ton.
However, there is no physical attacker that can safely switch into Malamar and defeat it in return except for Sheer Force Mawile (Intimidate Mawile cannot, I think), and Leavanny which can take any hit and OHKO it even at +1
Malamar is countered by Signal Beam variants of Uxie and Mespirit, no matter what, is checked by everything with U-Turn and everything else with Signal Beam - which is a ton.
However, there is no physical attacker that can safely switch into Malamar and defeat it in return except for Sheer Force Mawile (Intimidate Mawile cannot, I think), and Leavanny which can take any hit and OHKO it even at +1
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Yes it is true that Signal Beam is becoming more common, but is Malamar is behind the sub, it is a monster to deal with and can KO the Psychics after breaking the sub
and btw
252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 322-380 (85.6 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
36 SpA Uxie Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Malamar: 208-248 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 336-396 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 336-396 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Exeggutor: 426-504 (108.1 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Is Leavanny that common in NU, just asking never seen it
But understand where your coming from
and btw
252 SpA Life Orb Mesprit Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 322-380 (85.6 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
36 SpA Uxie Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Malamar: 208-248 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 336-396 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 336-396 (100.5 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Exeggutor: 426-504 (108.1 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Is Leavanny that common in NU, just asking never seen it
But understand where your coming from
- Status