Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[kay]

Miltank C+ --> B
So this is a bit of a different nomination. We're currently lacking variety in team building as everyone seems to be running the same 10-15 mons in team builder, which is why I started looking into other options. I've been using Miltank the past week or so and I've actually found it to be a very versatile mon in what it can do and what it can offer teams. Currently it's only one of the only rock setters in the tier which actually checks Lilligant due to Sap Sipper. But whats more is the fact that it checks the following mons: archeops, tauros, kanga, lilli, and subcm uxie. Calcs below. (Bonus fact, if you run Rocky Helmet it actually beats Klinklang)

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 146-173 (37 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Needs 4 cms to actually have a shot at 2hkoing it.)

And one of the neat things about this mon is that unlike almost every other wall that we have access to such as Regirock, this has reliable recovery with Milk Drink. This is kinda a niche mon, but it's definitely something to try if it fits your team! I'll leave a pastebin of the set below.

http://pastebin.com/P1K2nkFw

 

[Afro Smash]

- Loses to common Pokemon such as AV Hariyama.

What doesn't lol, shoutouts Houndoom

 

[Pokedots]

Miltank C+ --> B
So this is a bit of a different nomination. We're currently lacking variety in team building as everyone seems to be running the same 10-15 mons in team builder, which is why I started looking into other options. I've been using Miltank the past week or so and I've actually found it to be a very versatile mon in what it can do and what it can offer teams. Currently it's only one of the only rock setters in the tier which actually checks Lilligant due to Sap Sipper. But whats more is the fact that it checks the following mons: archeops, tauros, kanga, lilli, and subcm uxie. Calcs below. (Bonus fact, if you run Rocky Helmet it actually beats Klinklang)

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 146-173 (37 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Miltank: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Miltank: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Needs 4 cms to actually have a shot at 2hkoing it.)

And one of the neat things about this mon is that unlike almost every other wall that we have access to such as Regirock, this has reliable recovery with Milk Drink. This is kinda a niche mon, but it's definitely something to try if it fits your team! I'll leave a pastebin of the set below.

http://pastebin.com/P1K2nkFw

Though Seismic Toss is nice for consistent damage since Miltank isn't the strongest thing, I prefer Body Slam a lot of the time because it's super spammable, helps you do something to Xatu, and just in general ParaSpam is pretty great in this meta. Miltank is a god, and with T-Wave it checks basically every physical attacker that isn't a Fighting-type or has reliable recovery

Edit: Then you get another thing to handle Klinklang ?_?

 

[Aladyyn]

Yea but Body Slam makes you Klinklang fodder so it's pretty meh right now.

 

[kay]

If you run Body Slam then you have to run EQ. Which means your only way to spread the yellow magic is a 30% chance. I prefer Seismic Toss as it lets you reliably paralyze things, as well as do meaningful damage to bulky rock/ steel types

 

[shiloh]

Yea but Body Slam makes you Klinklang fodder so it's pretty meh right now.

Just because of mons like Garb and Klink I've been using Body Slam / EQ / Milk Drink / Heal Bell, and its actually really nice. It can also run T-Wave over Heal Bell, or really any other support move like Stealth Rock, but overall Miltank is pretty good right now, and its rank should reflect that.

 

[Aladyyn]

I didn't want to say Miltank was bad, I've been a fan of it for a long time, I'm just saying using Body Slam as its only attacking move is not advised in the current meta.

 

[Ares]

Update time, as always if I missed something feel free to VM me.

Xatu A+ --> S
Audino (Mega) A+ --> A
Klinklang A --> S
Samurott A --> A+
Electivire A- --> B+
Gourgeist-S A- --> B+
Jynx A- --> A+
Liepard A- --> A
Regirock A- --> B+
Rhydon A- --> A+
Combusken Unranked --> B+
Ferroseed B+ --> B
Gorebyss B+ --> B-
Granbull B+ --> B-
Huntail B+ --> C+
Pawniard B+ --> B
Weezing B+ --> A-
Cryogonal B --> B-
Leafeon B --> B-
Ninetales B --> B-
Stunfisk B --> C
Roselia B- --> B
Swanna B- --> C
Sandslash B- --> B
Beheeyem C+ --> B
Meowstic-M C+ --> C
Lampent C --> C-
Misdreavous C --> B-
Shedinja C --> C+
Torkoal D --> C-
Delibird C- --> D
Heatmor C- --> D
Hippopotas C- --> C

On a side note the viability council, which hasn't been a thing for a while, has been removed from the OP. Instead I make adjustments to this thread based upon input from the NU council, your nominations and reasoning, and my own personal experience with these mons.

 

[Disjunction]

Shedinja C --> C+

Instead I make adjustments to this thread based upon input from the NU council, your nominations and reasoning, and my own personal experience with these mons.

this will be the last contribution Kiyo ever makes to this thread

Also, since nothing was ever mentioned about it, was Sawk shut down from S or should there still be discussion going on about it? There weren't many counter arguments about it other than "it's been A+ for a while" and "I don't necessarily agree with it."

 

[Ares]

Also, since nothing was ever mentioned about it, was Sawk shut down from S or should there still be discussion going on about it? There weren't many counter arguments about it other than "it's been A+ for a while" and "I don't necessarily agree with it."

Nor where there many good arguments for it to rise other than it hits hard and it should of been S a while ago.

With Sneasel gone a ton of Sawk counters have come out of the walls, things like Musharna and Uxie and other Bulky Psychic-types as well as really old counters such as Vileplume. Yes Sawk has the appropriate coverage to beat those things, but it is heavily reliant upon its band and prediction to do so. This meta isn't as favorable to it since Sneasel left as it provided a good trapper to let Sawk spam CC more easily as well as suppressing its counters and as such I haven't seen a good reason to move it up. The comments I read that supported Sawk to S did not even touch on why it should be S in this particular meta and instead just listed its attributes such as hits hard and Sturdy.

 

[Funbot28]

Audino (Mega) A+ --> A

Just wanna ask why Mega Audino moved down, is it because of the prevalence of Klingklang? If so it has other options in Flamethrower, so it is not complete setup fodder.

Also was there any discussion on Xatu to S?, don't remember seeing any. I agree to it however.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Nor where there many good arguments for it to rise other than it hits hard and it should of been S a while ago.

With Sneasel gone a ton of Sawk counters have come out of the walls, things like Musharna and Uxie and other Bulky Psychic-types as well as really old counters such as Vileplume. Yes Sawk has the appropriate coverage to beat those things, but it is heavily reliant upon its band and prediction to do so. This meta isn't as favorable to it since Sneasel left as it provided a good trapper to let Sawk spam CC more easily as well as suppressing its counters and as such I haven't seen a good reason to move it up. The comments I read that supported Sawk to S did not even touch on why it should be S in this particular meta and instead just listed its attributes such as hits hard and Sturdy.

I think the best mon in the tier should be S rank.

On a side note, Granbull moving down just because Gallade and Sneasel left is bad reasoning. They're already being replaced by Sawk and Liepard for one, but Granbull also still checks major physical threats like Tauros, Archeops, Kabutops, Scyther and so on. While also providing team support with Intimidate, Heal Bell and T-Wave. And Vileplume should move up just for being a good answer to Sawk and all other Fighting types, but also for having a great defensive typing and being a pain to switch in on with STAB Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain from 110 SpAtk. Like Teddeh correctly pointed out, Vileplume is a pain to kill and that makes it a valuable asset. Especially with every other team running Lanturn.

 

[Ares]

Just wanna ask why Mega Audino moved down, is it because of the prevalence of Klingklang? If so it has other options in Flamethrower, so it is not complete setup fodder.

Also was there any discussion on Xatu to S?, don't remember seeing any. I agree to it however.

Raseri and hollywood both wanted it to move down, so I'll let them explain their reasoning.

Things will move up and down in the thread even if there aren't noms on them as the rankings are updated to reflect the current meta.

 

[ryan]

Mega Audino wasn't moved down due to any metagame shifts. It's just not on the same level, in my eyes, as other A+ Pokemon. No passive recovery forces it not to Mega Evolve in a lot of situations, and when you do Mega, FeelsBadMan unless you're ready to try to sweep with Calm Mind. Support Pokemon in high ranks, in my mind, should be really splashable and easy to throw onto any team because the support they provide is amazing or their typing gives them millions of switch-ins. Mega Audino's support options are nice but as a slow bulky cleaner, I tend to prefer Malamar or Musharna which offer other things to the team (Malamar can check non-Signal Beam Psychic-types, Musharna can offer Heal Bell support or just in general punish status thanks to Synchronize).

Why is Klinklang in S though? It absolutely does not deserve it at all lol. I wouldn't even call it the best cleaner in the tier when we have stuff like SD Samurott that needs almost no support at all and finds millions of setup opportunities because although it doesn't have tons of good resistances like Klinklang, it also has few weaknesses. I also like dual dance or even just Rock Polish Rhydon more as a cleaner because it has killer coverage, millions of setup opportunities, and powerful attacks unlike Klinklang which relies on an inaccurate STAB that has common resistances with non-STAB Normal coverage. Klinklang is a solid A+ Pokemon but is not at all metagame defining and requires tons of support before it can sweep. If Hyper Offense was the most common team archetype, a case could maybe be made for Klinklang in S, but when fat balanced teams are the most common archetype, it's so far from S worthy.

 

[Silver Aurum]

i dont think im the best to defend klingklang since i don't regularly use it, but it does clean the tier with Shift gear and the occasional sub, on things like uxie, mespirit, and mega audino which r fairy common in NU it can set up a free sub or just go straight away for shift gear, it has stab in the form of gear grindm it can run return, EQ, or wild charge as coverage, its hard to predict which move it will have for coverage if its running sub Shift Gear. there r other reasons why klingklang is S rank im sure but im not the best equipped to name all or most of them.

I hate to break it to you but Klinklang doesnt learn EQ ;-; (would be sweet if it did though)

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

i dont think im the best to defend klingklang since i don't regularly use it, but it does clean the tier with Shift gear and the occasional sub, on things like uxie, mespirit, and mega audino which r fairy common in NU it can set up a free sub or just go straight away for shift gear, it has stab in the form of gear grindm it can run return, EQ, or wild charge as coverage, its hard to predict which move it will have for coverage if its running sub Shift Gear. there r other reasons why klingklang is S rank im sure but im not the best equipped to name all or most of them.

It's gonna be Gear Grind + Return. It doesn't get EQ and Wild provides worse coverage compared to Return as well as you're taking recoil whilst tryna maintain a Substitute

 

[Steakburgers]

Why did stunfisk fall in viablity?
Its still a solid mon honestly, grass is seeing a boom but stunfisk can still co-exist despite that. Still one of the top sr setters in the tier imo, its coverage is fantastic, hits klinklang which you guys have at S, can beat xatu as well, which is also in S, and has a great ability in static, which makes people wonder if they wanna keep hitting this thing physically

 

[Froggyboy]

Stunfisk got really popular in NU because it was one of the more reliable Magneton checks/counters, so when it was banned it dropped. And after thinking about it, what exactly does Stunfisk beat that Lanturn doesn't? Stunfisk has more weaknesses and iirc less resistances than Lanturn, causing it check/counter less stuff than it. For example, Stunfisk loses to Jynx and Kabutops, thanks to its weaknesses to Water and Ice, while Lanturn checks both reliably thanks to resisting Water and Ice.
At least that's why I think Stunfisk is so low.

 

[SotheBlacKnight]

I'm curious, is Tauros really deserving of S rank?

I mean I know it's good and not the hardest poke to fit into a team but I've never been too impressed by it. Maybe I don't use the right set or I don't use teams that are demolished by it, but I feel there are better pokes who can sweep or break walls than Tauros.

I'll admit I may not know what I'm talking about but I feel like asking.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I'm curious, is Tauros really deserving of S rank?

I mean I know it's good and not the hardest poke to fit into a team but I've never been too impressed by it. Maybe I don't use the right set or I don't use teams that are demolished by it, but I feel there are better pokes who can sweep or break walls than Tauros.

I'll admit I may not know what I'm talking about but I feel like asking.

Tauros brings a very impressive coverage and hits very hard for a top speed tier mon. The fact he can 2HKO (or OHKO) so many of NU's best walls without being choiced locked (or even taking LO recoil) is what makes him so important in the meta. Mega audino, non sp.d tangela, weezing, ferroseed, garbodor, vileplume, mawile all take a big risk (if not completely suicide) when switching into tauros. Many of these walls would usualy be your go to mon against a normal attacker but tauros forces you to bring another or patch up in another way. Anything it doesn't hit for super effective, it still rams with rock climb. Tauros's counters are pretty muched summed up in gourgeist super, regirock, defensive costa, rhydon, musharna, uxie (the last 2 struggling when SR's are up) and bulky golurk.

 

[Hootie]

Exeggutor and Cacturne should switch ranks. Really puzzled why Exeggutor moved up when Xatu is everywhere and the viability of Ghost-types has increased, which Cacturne capitalizes on. I almost always prefer Cacturne because it's not complete dead weight against offensive teams thanks to Sucker Punch and the Water immunity is also really useful. While both did benefit from Sneasel's departure, Cacturne has one less Sucker Punch resist to deal with, which is the biggest thing that stands out. The rise of Calm Mind Psychic-types as well as the increased popularity of Jynx and Haunter are also beneficial for Cacturne (all of which force out Exeggutor). Don't get me wrong, both are very solid Pokemon, but Cacturne has more uses over Exeggutor in the current meta.

Edit: Spikes and Destiny Bond offer much more utility over Exeggutor's Sleep Powder

 

[Deej Dy]

I agree with Hootie and agree to "Back this Cactus" to A rank, it heavily pressures the vast majority of teams and nearly all SR setters are extremely weak to it (Shoutout Monferno,Spc Def Mootank), so you know it will get at least one chance to do an enormous amount of damage. Also sucker punch and spikez are good as always.
Sorry for short post, but i may elaborate more later.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

Spikes is consistently used more often than D-bond on Cacturne, and it's actually on over 50% of sets as you move towards the top of the ladder, becoming more frequent than SD as well.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-06/moveset/

 

[Hootie]

well cacturn isnt really used for its hazards its used more for SD and D-bond, and sleep powder is a powerful thing and do is sub sitrus and sub petaya berry, also exeggutor is great for trick room and stall teams.

I never said it's used for hazards, but in general it's a good move to use on forced switches. Also I don't know where you get the idea that Cacturne is primarily used for Swords Dance when mixed LO is far more common. Sleep Powder is nice on Exeggutor until you realize that its best switch ins are immune to it. Sub Sitrus and Sub Petaya are also inconsistent gimmicks at best and Exeggutor has the same speed as Cacturne under Trick Room (even then Trick Room isn't what I'd call relevant).

 

[Punchshroom]

Cryogonal B --> B-

I'll have to disagree with this. While Cryogonal has been falling out of favor as of late, mostly due to its lack of defensive synergy with hazard-weak mons, at the very least it isn't Pursuit trapped by Sneasel at every corner now. Even when not spinning which it still does a fine job at as it's tricky af to spinblock, the fast Freeze-Dry is honestly enough for Cryo to pull its weight in most matches as it can so easily break down a good amount of cores (the popular Lanturn + Xatu in particular). Hell you can even forgo Recover in favor for more offensive presence like 3 attacks + spin (Freeze-Dry / HP Ground / Signal Beam) so it possesses respectable corebreaking ability like Vanilluxe, the latter of which I have honestly no idea why it didn't follow suit in the ranking drop when Cryogonal did.

If you do insist on keeping Cryo in B-, can we just drop the shit out of Vanilluxe already? I'd "value" Vanilluxe about as much as like Regice, which has equally solid 3-move coverage (if not better since all of its attacks are strong enough to attempt Specs, like Aurorus) while having monstrous special bulk which lets it check shit, including the sleep users with Sleep Talk.

Why did stunfisk fall in viablity?
Its still a solid mon honestly, grass is seeing a boom but stunfisk can still co-exist despite that. Still one of the top sr setters in the tier imo, its coverage is fantastic, hits klinklang which you guys have at S, can beat xatu as well, which is also in S, and has a great ability in static, which makes people wonder if they wanna keep hitting this thing physically

The weaknesses to Water, Ground, Grass, and Ice, all of which are very popular and common attacking types, hold Stunfisk back from walling much of anything safely. Plus unlike Rhydon, which also carries these same weaknesses, Stunfisk does not carry a strong offensive presence nor additional important resistances to Normal and Fire.

Exeggutor and Cacturne should switch ranks. Really puzzled why Exeggutor moved up when Xatu is everywhere and the viability of Ghost-types has increased, which Cacturne capitalizes on. I almost always prefer Cacturne because it's not complete dead weight against offensive teams thanks to Sucker Punch and the Water immunity is also really useful. While both did benefit from Sneasel's departure, Cacturne has one less Sucker Punch resist to deal with, which is the biggest thing that stands out. The rise of Calm Mind Psychic-types as well as the increased popularity of Jynx and Haunter are also beneficial for Cacturne (all of which force out Exeggutor). Don't get me wrong, both are very solid Pokemon, but Cacturne has more uses over Exeggutor in the current meta.

Edit: Spikes and Destiny Bond offer much more utility over Exeggutor's Sleep Powder

Yeah I have to agree with this. The metagame trends far favor Cacturne than Exeggutor and the rankings should reflect this. Cacturne's STABs are not only more potent against many bulky team archetypes (especially considering Xatu's prominence), but its Water immunity (as well as Sleep Powder immunity) combined with the single strongest priority attack in the whole tier means it is more than capable of holding its own against offense (particularly Rain teams), plus Cacturne's ability to go mixed can keep foes guessing. Meanwhile, Eggy, if not up against a slower mon, gets forced out like dozens of different ways. Sure, Sun bolsters Eggy's matchup against offense, but like Victreebel and unlike Ludicolo, it is a considerably risky prospect to set up Sun with Eggy itself, which means it wants team support, which means Eggy isn't on par with the likes of Ludicolo.

Klinklang A --> S

Klinklang is good but in no way is it worthy of S; its early- to mid-game presence is utterly laughable when compared to other dangerous lategame sweepers like Dual Dance Rhydon, Carracosta, Lilligant, Ludicolo, even Fletchinder (especially Fletchinder). All of those setup sweepers both have utility in the beginning and middle stages of the game and can contribute to their own sweeping success, and Klinklang falls short on both of these qualities; attacking with an unboosted Klinklang is incredibly un-worthwhile and is an idea that shouldn't even be bothered with, and you'd honestly be better off just pulling a double switch or something. Klinklang may be a significant lategame threat, but before its optimal sweeping conditions are met, it is either too much of a deadweight or outright liability during that period to be considered S-worthy.

An S Rank worthy mon should be consistently useful throughout the entirety of the match and/or have multiple set variety to extend its possible roles and matchups. Something like Klinklang definitely does not fit the standard of S Rank more so than, say, Jynx (*nudge nudge wink wink*).

Also

and

should switch Ranks at the very least. Tangela doesn't wall shit that Gourgeist and Plume can't do better these days.