Sorry but gorebyss is still a pretty good sweeper and it has for less competition for the role of special water sweeper then huntail has for physical water sweeper.
Yeah bro M-Camerupt is used on offense.
Do you use Hariyama on all your teams? god damn. Hariyama doesn't even like taking a Earth Power and risk taking a Will-O-Wisp if they run that. its not hard to handle Hariyama with teammates.
psure its not that much weaker? and ye bro gotta love having to lock yourself into a move when M-Camerupt can switch up moves and wreck most of the meta with just its two STABs, set up SR, and a lot of nice stuff. Camerupt can switch on hits, Typhlosion can't.
I think you found the answer tbh I haven't seen a single teddeh team without a hariyama lol
Yeah I don't think Gorebyss is a bad Pokemon, but I do think Ludicolo mostly better. I also don't think offensive Shell Smash Huntail is great, but I think it's better than Gorebyss because its low Speed is less important. Carracosta, Kabutops, and Feraligatr all have priority as well, but Huntail's priority is stronger, which is a pretty big plus.
I thought it was worth noting that Samurott can run a special set just as effectively as it's physical set.
*cough*Pangoro*cough*
Mega Camerupt does not have a boosting move and a priority move, they are very different when it comes to their wallbreaking prowess. Also, Assault Vest Hariyama, Mantine, Thick Fat Walrein, Sliggoo, wall Zweilous, and even Lunatone plus goddamn Vibrava (:P) can survive 2 neutral hits from this thing, so it isn't exactly impossible to wall, but let's move on to the bigger issue with Mega Camerupt...
The abysmal speed is a huge reason why Mega Camerupt isn't tearing up walls left and right. You're dealing with a wallbreaker that is slower than the likes of Audino, Vileplume, Rhydon, Steelix, Probopass, Musharna, and even Avalugg, and that is really, really goddamn slow. MegaRupt's sluggishness means that most teams (even offensive ones) can survive a MegaRupt onslaught simply by making use of defensive synergy and forcing it out, especially considering a large majority of Fire resists in the tier, even the slow ones, have a favorable matchup against MegaRupt provided they do not eat an Earth Power on the switch. Compared to other wallbreakers which either have much more spammable STABs and/or simply have the speed to worry less about switch-ins, Mega Camerupt is more prediction reliant than them. It also lacks reliable recovery, meaning if it gets worn down too much it can wallbreak no further, which is likely since nearly all walls outspeed it.
No doubt Mega Camerupt is great, but its speed does hold it back from doing its wallbreaking / holepunching job as well as it would like; even a Rock Polish variant doesn't hit the base 90s (provided both MegaRupt and the 90 base Speed Pokemon have equal natures), plus being checked by nearly every single Water-type in the tier doesn't do it favors. I'm not opposed to a rise or simply letting it stay, but a rise to S seems too high. That said, I don't favor dropping Mega Camerupt either; it seems fine where it is (imo, at least).
Hence why I said, "in the sense that nothing switches in safely". I am not debating that they wallbreak differently, it was really only meant to be a loose comparison. Mantine gets completely rekt by a predicted rock slide and will rarely ever switch in when rocks are on their side of the field.
The fact of the matter is MegaRupt isn't threatened by much that outspeeds it (atleast mons that can "switch into" it anyway). What are Vileplume, Audino, Probopass and Avalugg doing to MegaRupt? lol
4 Atk Sheer Force Camerupt Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 150-178 (45 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If the other mons do nothing but wall Mega Camerupt, I would not have mentioned them at all (bar Vibrava, which I shittalked a little :P). While Yama can be worn down by repeated Earth Powers, Earth Power is still only a 3HKO; unless you want to risk a massive hit on MegaRupt, you'll likely be forced out to keep it healthy, as the bolded statement very easily applies to Mega Camerupt as well unless you happen to use extensive VoltTurn support.
The former three can land some solid hits on MegaRupt, usually ensuring it won't be healthy enough to cleanly sweep through bulky cores like most other wallbreakers can. Audino can WishTect stall Mega Camerupt, by virtue of MegaRupt being slower; as long as Audino does not switch directly into a Fire Blast, Audino can fend off a MegaRupt assault.
As a wallbreaker, Landorus-I is really not very prediction reliant at all because of its great speed; it usually doesn't care if the opponent switches into a bulky resist if it can just use a coverage move to floor them in the very next turn. Meanwhile, the folks in OU are complaining that MegaRupt fails to wallbreak teams even when the opposing Chansey is as low as 30%, or the opposing Clefable starts Calm Minding in its face, etc.. Being a wallbreaker that is slower than the majority of walls it wants to break is not good for business. To answer your Latios question, let me relate it to a MegaRupt scenario: yes, I would risk switching in my Rhydon into a MegaRupt if I am confident it is using Fire Blast (its most spammable attack), because I know it won't be fast enough to respond with an Earth Power if Rhydon does enter safely. This decision is even easier to make if my Fire resist is not weak to Ground.
I don't see what is so unfair about stating that most of the Pokemon that can switch into MegaRupt's attacks can either OHKO/2HKO it, because that certainly seems to be the case (mostly Water-types, but strays such as Hariyama and Assault Vest Kangaskhan are also considered); other wallbreakers do not face these problems nearly as much. You are also overestimating the amount of options MegaRupt has access to, because it really does not at all: Hidden Power, Flash Cannon, Rock Polish, Explosion, Earthquake, and Will-O-Wisp are more or less the best 'other options' it has, and they are very niche and usually do little to help Mega Camerupt's situation.
Lol so if anything Liligant didn't get worse, Liligant got better with the leaving of Dragalge its main counter in the tier. Meaning it can beat nearly all of its checks / counters with HP Fire, the exception ofc is Bouffoulant, who lets be real here, isn't used enough to justify moving Liligant down. Your calcs with Vileplume make little sense to me as Liligant can easily setup a second Quiver dance on the switch and take 60% max, OHKO and continue its sweep, or if Vileplume is worn down (which isn't hard to do) it can just set up a quiver dance on the switch and KO with even a tiny bit of prior damage. Liligant does not need amazing coverage as it already has enough between Giga Drain and HP Fire, it also has amazing utility with Sleep Powder and access to one of the best boosting moves in the game. I don't see a move down as an option for the reason's you given, and tbh I think lili is a solid A+ mon.Liligant A+ ---> A-
Although Liligant is one of the, if not the best special sweeper in the meta right now, it's rather underwhelming, lacking the power and set-up opportunities. Some of the most common walls, such as Vileplume can come in and force Liligant out, making the other team lose momentum. It has a chance of OHKO'ing with Sludge Bomb and a guarantee of OHKO'ing after SR:
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 270-318 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 270-318 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And if Liligant has already had a chance to set-up at least one Quiver Dance, it's just 2 KO'd by Sludge Bomb anyway:
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Lilligant: 180-212 (63.8 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It doesn't even matter if Vileplume is Specially Defensive or not, Liligant simply lacks the power with HP Fire to 100% OHKO it from first turn too:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 273-322 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Alright that's enough of the calcs, it's getting quite spammy. The likes of Sap Sipper Bouffalant is even more threatening to Liligant. It can come in to absorb an incoming grass move, and raise its attack, as if it's not powerful enough. It can also live whatever HP Liligant throws at it due to its bulk. Lastly, it's easily revenge killed by Glalie, obviously.
I'm not saying Liligant is bad, it's quite good, but its checks and counters are far too prominent for it to be in A+ rank.
So I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with moving Kanga down, but what I do disagree with is your arguments for moving it down. You brought up Kangaskhan's lack of power vs. stuff neutral to it and while it does struggle to get past a few things it absolutely ahnilates other defensive things such as Vileplume and other defensive Pokemon, it doesn't need to handle the relatively few steel-types as it can have a teammate to do that. The biggest things I take issue with is that you said that it is outclassed in terms of revenge killing by gatr, glalie, and yama, this is just wrong lol. As neither gatr or glalie have dual priority and Hariyama is just not as good at dual priority as it has two unSTAB base 40 power moves which aren't that great anymore; Kangaskhan on the other hand has STAB on Fake Out and has a base 80 power move in Sucker Punch. It can fill the role of revenge killer much better, while also filling the role of wallbreaker as well. I could see kanga moving down, but not for the reasons you gave.Kangaskhan A+ ---> A
Alright, this is going to be quick and simple because I don't feel as strongly about this. I nominate Kangaskhan to go from A+ to just A in viability ranking. While it has access to two considerably powerful priority moves, it still lack of power is makes it a non-threat to any team with a defensive core neutral to Khan's coverage. All its good at is revenge killing, and allot of the time the AV sets can come in on special attacks and use priority to get rid of the frailer attacker. However, in terms of priority/revenge killing, it's pretty outclassed by the likes of Feraligatr, Glalie, and sometimes Hariyama, all of which can play other roles too.
I don't think you can use two Quiver Dances in one turn, can you? I see what you're saying, but it doesn't make much sense as the usual thing to do would be to go for Sleep Powder (an unreliable move too) with the chance that the other mon stays in to bop you, as Liligant is frail. The problem with that is the existence of Grass-Types like Vileplume and Serperior. You have to play mind-games in order to set-up and sweep. It's also pretty easy to play around with Hariyama, Magmortar, Typhlosion, Camerupt, and even Mantine, which I failed to mention in my previous post.
And what does this statement have anything to do with its viability? I'm pointing it out for what it is in the Metagame at the moment. Perhaps it didn't deserve to be A+ before? I don't know, and I'm not going to get into that. Also, Dragalge leaving to RU had multiple effects on the Metagame. Maybe with this given info you'd drop it to an A ranking? I honestly don't think it belongs in A+.
He didn't say that he uses 2 Quiver Dance in 1 Turn, he just used the senario you have given him and made a point.
And then I went on to state how Liligant is forced to Sleep Powder due to its frailness, otherwise it has the chance of being KO'd on the spot. Please tell me where I said Vileplume was a counter. I was just using it as a specific example of a check, given it wasn't the best example.
How is having to use Sleep Powder a bad thing? If anything the access to Sleep Powder makes Lilligant even more threatening because the fast sleep move allows Lilligant to put would-be checks / counters to sleep giving it room to KO them, make them liabilities against Lilligant's teammates, or give itself free setup opportunities.
When did I say it's a bad thing? I simply said it's hard to play around with Liligant because Sleep Powder is inaccurate, and if you predict incorrectly your Liligant is either killed or forced out. It's just frail so it relies on it.
Between Quiver Dance and Giga Drain, the amount of opponents Lilligant can set up on is deceptively large; it can even set up on non-STAB Ice Beams from the likes of Ludicolo and Samurott and proceed to get all its health back in a snap. Quiver Dance also ensures that most special revenge killers will not be able to respond to it. Sleep Powder's inaccuracy isn't a good argument against a Pokemon's viability, considering that Jynx was banned in BW NU.
