Then why was I thinking that Tauros is 115? :/
Thanks for the correction dude:)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings (Under Construction)
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
- Status
Thanks for the correction dude:)
Can clefairy finally have a rank? It deserves D at a minimum.
it's not outclassed by mega-audino for several reasons:
Also chatot deserves S, it's broken
it's not outclassed by mega-audino for several reasons:
- Magic guard is godly, especially for a "stally" pokemon in a meta where hazards and status is in the plentiful.
- Stealth rock is huge.
- Softboiled. Not taking up 2 slots with wish + protect / rest for recovery is massive, making it have room for t-wave, moonblast, stealth rock, toxic, heck even calm mind.
- It can go either way for defenses, i've tried both and the meta suits either.
Also chatot deserves S, it's broken
I would like to repeat some of my previous noms since I feel some were just kinda blown off without enough thought... I will pastebin anythin I said in a previous post and then add on to it from there.
Aurorus A- ---> A
Even if it only gets A this thing is easily one of the biggest threats too date. It can very very effectively run specs, scarf, sash lead, and life orb without being remotely difficult to use or gimmicky. (Scarf can be kinda gimmicky but its very effective.) When you not running piloswine or hariyama its fairly easily one of the scariest wall breakers vs balance or stall. Not only that but sash lead and scarf wreck hyper offense.
As shown by the calcs piloswine, lanturn, and hariyama can still be easily broken by aurorus's coverage which most of the time it doesn't need to use considerng how effective it's ice stabs are.
Raichu C ---> B-
I'm wont back off of this nom because despite not being a wallbreaker it is gairly easy to throw on a team and its so damn effective at being a complete nuisance to the enemy team. Volt switch, grass knot, focus blast, and knock off hit almost everything that likes to come in on raichu. On top of that it scares off a shot ton of the mons in the meta and if it gets an unfavorable matchup it can volt switch out.
Vs lanturn it knocks off which is huge vs lanturn due to the fact lefties is lanturns only form of coverage. Then grass knot and focus blast can do 25 - 35 % at a time wearing it down.
Vs regirock grass knot 2hkos
Vs rhydon grass knot usually ohkos
Miltank gets rekt by focus blast.
Bar torterra this is like a huge nuisance to everyone.... please actually consider this nom. I've tried it so its as effective in practice as Im saying it is on paper. Its comparable to the usefulness of floatzel.
Piloswine A- ---> A
When I suggested this go A last time it was B+. I seriously think it deserves to go farther as my favorite switchin to it is still another piloswine or maybe a prinplup.
As the most reliable stealth rocker, a solid check to most good mons, and access to ice shard, it should be pushed toward A range no? Thoughts?
Aurorus A- ---> AThis I have more to say for. Both its refrigerate raw power and snow warning blizzard sash/sturdy/weather breaking set are extreamely effective in this meta. I think its comparable to sawk in some ways in terms of it being one of the most unstoppable wallbreakers in the tier. Not only that but itis the perfect combo with any physical attack as it can basically OHKO any physical wall people bring out. The problem with it is obviously the fact that its typing doesnt allow it to have any backup use as bulky offense but quite honestly its one of the most consistantly threatening mon that we have. 58 speed tier is obv not gr8 but currently we have many things at 50 making it actually quite fun. Ice types r so fun rn and I would argue better then usual.
Calcs:
Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 226-266 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 195-231 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 382-452 (92.2 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 359-424 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 242-289 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Probopass????: 328-390 (101.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Flash Cannon?????? vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 208-247 (52 - 61.7%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 195-231 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 382-452 (92.2 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 359-424 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 242-289 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Probopass????: 328-390 (101.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Flash Cannon?????? vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 208-247 (52 - 61.7%)
Even if it only gets A this thing is easily one of the biggest threats too date. It can very very effectively run specs, scarf, sash lead, and life orb without being remotely difficult to use or gimmicky. (Scarf can be kinda gimmicky but its very effective.) When you not running piloswine or hariyama its fairly easily one of the scariest wall breakers vs balance or stall. Not only that but sash lead and scarf wreck hyper offense.
As shown by the calcs piloswine, lanturn, and hariyama can still be easily broken by aurorus's coverage which most of the time it doesn't need to use considerng how effective it's ice stabs are.
Raichu C ---> B-These (non choiced) high speed tier electrics are extreamely good right now. Zebstrika has the advantage over raichu that it consistently outspeeds tauros and cheops where for raichu its a 50/50. Raichu on the other hand is a lot more annoying in terms of its ability to volt switch/knock off and generally do high damage to many mons. The best stops to raichu all seem to hate getting knocked off which creates more opportunities for oher mons. Zebstrika cant be irrelevated by grass types with its access to overheat XD Both of them are able to gain an advantage volt blocking.
4 Atk Expert Belt Raichu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 108 Def Rotom: 168-199 (55.2 - 65.4%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 514-605 (124.1 - 146.1%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 312-370 (75.3 - 89.3%) (a little prior damage does the trick)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 221-262 (56 - 66.4%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 259-305 (92.1 - 108.5%)252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Golurk: 293-346 (76.7 - 90.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 289-341 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-229 (46.3 - 55.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 312-369 (75.3 - 89.1%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 461-547 (117 - 138.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 514-605 (124.1 - 146.1%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 312-370 (75.3 - 89.3%) (a little prior damage does the trick)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 221-262 (56 - 66.4%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 259-305 (92.1 - 108.5%)252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Golurk: 293-346 (76.7 - 90.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 289-341 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-229 (46.3 - 55.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 312-369 (75.3 - 89.1%)
252 SpA Expert Belt Raichu Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 461-547 (117 - 138.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
I'm wont back off of this nom because despite not being a wallbreaker it is gairly easy to throw on a team and its so damn effective at being a complete nuisance to the enemy team. Volt switch, grass knot, focus blast, and knock off hit almost everything that likes to come in on raichu. On top of that it scares off a shot ton of the mons in the meta and if it gets an unfavorable matchup it can volt switch out.
Vs lanturn it knocks off which is huge vs lanturn due to the fact lefties is lanturns only form of coverage. Then grass knot and focus blast can do 25 - 35 % at a time wearing it down.
Vs regirock grass knot 2hkos
Vs rhydon grass knot usually ohkos
Miltank gets rekt by focus blast.
Bar torterra this is like a huge nuisance to everyone.... please actually consider this nom. I've tried it so its as effective in practice as Im saying it is on paper. Its comparable to the usefulness of floatzel.
Am I the only one who has problems with this? I know this meta is a great fan of sawk and rott but piloswine is still threatening the vast majority of mons I like to use and has ice shard so it can clean up anything once they grow weak. On top of that I would argue it is the most reliable hazard setter in the tier since it can rek xatu, claydol, kabutops, sandslash, skunk, shiftry, (not prinplup), but at the very least the vast majority of the way people remove or prevent hazards.
Eq and Icicle crash also seem to hit many of the common things people use like lanturn, rotom fan, scyther, skunk, ect...
Eq and Icicle crash also seem to hit many of the common things people use like lanturn, rotom fan, scyther, skunk, ect...
When I suggested this go A last time it was B+. I seriously think it deserves to go farther as my favorite switchin to it is still another piloswine or maybe a prinplup.
As the most reliable stealth rocker, a solid check to most good mons, and access to ice shard, it should be pushed toward A range no? Thoughts?
These re-noms I dont feel as strongly about as the previous three but I thought they still deserved to be brought up...
Cradily C+ ---> B-
There are 4 sets good players have considered decent at this point. Standard SpD with rocks is good, dancing cradily is good, my wp cradily is good, and defensive cradily is also good. Its a solid counter to cheops, swellow, tauros, evire, while still handling common water types.
Looking at C+ mons cradily is a bit better then the rest and I wouldnt say things in B- are better then it... at all...
Golurk B ---> B+
Golurk is good ;-; I assume I dont need to get calcs for it but if you guys want calcs I'll go get them. Like besides it's shit typing defensively it's still a great wallbreaker with rocks.
Garbodor A+ ---> A
Ughhh I know how many ppl will disagree with this...
Its def a good mon with a nice speed tier for a defensive mon. However in terms of being A+ I feel its very lackluster because tbh I would almost allways perfer vileplume over it to respond to physical threats. Not that all the S ranked mons run eq anyway so it cant be a gud response to them. (Sawk doesn't run eq unless mb but zen headbutt will force a broken sturdy and kill garb all the same)
In terms of being a spike stacker it doesnt have an ez time vs many of the hazard removers ie prinplup, special skunk, claydol, sandslash, xatu, ect... we got so many hazard removal options I dont think garb should be A+ just for that n_n
Ive been running helment plume and it honestly is so much better :( I dont feel passive recovery is too neccesary since plume has dat reliable recovery. Well anyone have fun shiting on this nom :}
In my defense I haven't recommended a cradily rise throughout my use of it for the passed 9 months :O I've been finding it to be really good in this meta with it's main downside being sawk forces it out and can hugely hurt your squad, it takes a little bit of work to fit on a team and is therefore not very splashable, and is setup fodder for malamar/m-audino.
On the other hand it is really good right now. Similar to vileplume it can switch in on shiftry; tanking 2 knock offs, a knock off then a leaf storm, or a knock off then a sucker in which cradily can hit recover and eliminate the risk. It has the advantage over many of the top tier threats such as cheops, tauros, xatu, rhydon, liepard, kanga, ludicolo, pyroar, magmortar, lilligant, lanturn, kabutops, rotom, haunter, claydol, special rott, and can even bop so many of the things that like to come in on it such as mawile, pawn, klink, garb, skuntank with simple ground coverage moves.
I've been running both SpD crad and SpA crad and they both put in work. SpD crad is very good at getting up rocks while being better able to handle the mons it is good against. SpA can take advantage of it's coverage to put a dent in many unsuspecting and very often unprepared teams.
The main reason I'm asking for a rise is because in this meta not only can I explain cradily's use on paper but it's also becoming my MVP for many games and is def a solid part of the cores I use. (plz don't hate me forever ;-;)
On the other hand it is really good right now. Similar to vileplume it can switch in on shiftry; tanking 2 knock offs, a knock off then a leaf storm, or a knock off then a sucker in which cradily can hit recover and eliminate the risk. It has the advantage over many of the top tier threats such as cheops, tauros, xatu, rhydon, liepard, kanga, ludicolo, pyroar, magmortar, lilligant, lanturn, kabutops, rotom, haunter, claydol, special rott, and can even bop so many of the things that like to come in on it such as mawile, pawn, klink, garb, skuntank with simple ground coverage moves.
I've been running both SpD crad and SpA crad and they both put in work. SpD crad is very good at getting up rocks while being better able to handle the mons it is good against. SpA can take advantage of it's coverage to put a dent in many unsuspecting and very often unprepared teams.
The main reason I'm asking for a rise is because in this meta not only can I explain cradily's use on paper but it's also becoming my MVP for many games and is def a solid part of the cores I use. (plz don't hate me forever ;-;)
There are 4 sets good players have considered decent at this point. Standard SpD with rocks is good, dancing cradily is good, my wp cradily is good, and defensive cradily is also good. Its a solid counter to cheops, swellow, tauros, evire, while still handling common water types.
Looking at C+ mons cradily is a bit better then the rest and I wouldnt say things in B- are better then it... at all...
Even with pursuit skunk going around I find golurks coverage to be amazingly good at letting it be near uncounterable. Iron fist allows it to make use of ice punch, shadow punch, and drain punch. It also has the option of running heavy slam(fuk audino), grass knot (fuk quag ;}), stone edge, and stealth rock. It's stab eq is also not to be messed with!
Golurk is good ;-; I assume I dont need to get calcs for it but if you guys want calcs I'll go get them. Like besides it's shit typing defensively it's still a great wallbreaker with rocks.
Garbodor A+ ---> AUghhh I know how many ppl will disagree with this...
Its def a good mon with a nice speed tier for a defensive mon. However in terms of being A+ I feel its very lackluster because tbh I would almost allways perfer vileplume over it to respond to physical threats. Not that all the S ranked mons run eq anyway so it cant be a gud response to them. (Sawk doesn't run eq unless mb but zen headbutt will force a broken sturdy and kill garb all the same)
In terms of being a spike stacker it doesnt have an ez time vs many of the hazard removers ie prinplup, special skunk, claydol, sandslash, xatu, ect... we got so many hazard removal options I dont think garb should be A+ just for that n_n
Ive been running helment plume and it honestly is so much better :( I dont feel passive recovery is too neccesary since plume has dat reliable recovery. Well anyone have fun shiting on this nom :}
At work atm so quick concise thoughts ^
I mostly agree with what you've said. I'll focus more on Garb for now. Garb is still GREAT, don't get me wrong. But it feels like its a bit worse for wear now. I'm not sure where to point the finger in all honesty. I really dislike it from a defensive stand point. Its big thing is punishing physical mons that make contact but people are getting good at working around Garb. I really dislike not having passive recovery either because it feels like helmet is essential. For most of my teams I've been running max offenses, sometimes even with LO. Bulky/balance offense doesn't really mind Garb at all I find, packing a way to get rid of hazards, usually a way to recover health and stuff that doesn't mind taking residual damage from helmet+aftermath. Like Dent said, I rather use Plume. The recovery is so so important because right now these defensive poisons fill a very important role and need to be used quite a bit, so taking hits here and there is a death sentence if you can't recover.
Shitty post but mobile at work so yeah ill try and shape it up
I mostly agree with what you've said. I'll focus more on Garb for now. Garb is still GREAT, don't get me wrong. But it feels like its a bit worse for wear now. I'm not sure where to point the finger in all honesty. I really dislike it from a defensive stand point. Its big thing is punishing physical mons that make contact but people are getting good at working around Garb. I really dislike not having passive recovery either because it feels like helmet is essential. For most of my teams I've been running max offenses, sometimes even with LO. Bulky/balance offense doesn't really mind Garb at all I find, packing a way to get rid of hazards, usually a way to recover health and stuff that doesn't mind taking residual damage from helmet+aftermath. Like Dent said, I rather use Plume. The recovery is so so important because right now these defensive poisons fill a very important role and need to be used quite a bit, so taking hits here and there is a death sentence if you can't recover.
Shitty post but mobile at work so yeah ill try and shape it up
Last edited:
Time for a "shut down" post, because i disagree with most of your nominations here.
Cradily: is a big no no to rise, with the immense amount of threats that take advantage of it lately (sawk, klinklang, gurdurr, aurorus, jynx, tauros-running iron head, etc etc), i would like to see it stay firmly in C rank, in fact if we plan on dropping the ranks a little, i wouldn't hesitate to see it drop to C- or even D+. Whilst also commenting on the things you said it checks, lilligant sets up on cradily, kabu destroys with stone edge ?_? archeops 2 hit ko's ?_? rotom beats it with will-o hex... and so on. I just disagree hugely with this post and nomination in general.
Golurk: is another that i feel carries way too many weaknesses for it to be classed as good right now. It's weak to almost anything and everything right now, however i can see it having a use in checking tauros... but that's literally it. It will get one hit off, until they have a vileplume or a bulky water-type to keep it in check, however i am completely fine with it staying in B.
Garb: i can see where you're coming from for this nomination and i will add to both sides of the argument.
On one side, i think teams in this meta are extremely weak to ground, hence why i think that rhydon is so good right now and as a result (or at least me personally) people are choosing to run pokemon that don't carry the extra ground weakness whilst still checking fighting types or rhydon. People are choosing to go with weezing or vileplume because of team building restrictions. For the standard balance team, garb is not the go-to choice right now and it's very clear to see.
However, it's the best spike stacker in the tier and can act as an excellent lure for rhydon with seed bomb. It makes me believe that it's a very 50/50 decision on whether or not it should keep it's rank whilst at the same time, i am thinking that it's time for it to drop a place. I'd like to see more discussion because at the moment i'm on the fence now thinking about it.
Aurorus: I can see aurorus fitting in the same boat as magmortar here a little bit as it has a lack of switch ins, makes me think it should rise but at the same time it's not like magmortar in many other senses as it doesn't add defensive synergy, it is slow as balls and in general it struggles against a very fast meta right now. I'd wait on this nomination a little bit because i am looking forward to the massive update this sunday lmao
Piloswine: Disagree with entirely. It's a one trick pony, can take a hit from most of the tier but it just lacks in so many areas and carries a lot of weakness. I would prefer to even see it in B rather than A, i'm not a big fan of it. It's threatened out by too much in the tier and is threatened by so many wallbreakers, but at the same time i'm not fussed on whether it drops, it should definitely not rise though imo.
Raichu: I've not seen it or faced it at all, using it myself though, it was very underwhelming. I wouldn't see it rise though however since it requires too much effort to whittle down its checks reliably whilst also adding no defensive synergy, it makes me wonder why would i want to use this over another fast threat in the tier such as archeops or tauros? it really doesn't add much in the way of niche and it makes me think that it doesn't warrant a rise.
for most of your posts... sorry... but:
Cradily: is a big no no to rise, with the immense amount of threats that take advantage of it lately (sawk, klinklang, gurdurr, aurorus, jynx, tauros-running iron head, etc etc), i would like to see it stay firmly in C rank, in fact if we plan on dropping the ranks a little, i wouldn't hesitate to see it drop to C- or even D+. Whilst also commenting on the things you said it checks, lilligant sets up on cradily, kabu destroys with stone edge ?_? archeops 2 hit ko's ?_? rotom beats it with will-o hex... and so on. I just disagree hugely with this post and nomination in general.
Golurk: is another that i feel carries way too many weaknesses for it to be classed as good right now. It's weak to almost anything and everything right now, however i can see it having a use in checking tauros... but that's literally it. It will get one hit off, until they have a vileplume or a bulky water-type to keep it in check, however i am completely fine with it staying in B.
Garb: i can see where you're coming from for this nomination and i will add to both sides of the argument.
On one side, i think teams in this meta are extremely weak to ground, hence why i think that rhydon is so good right now and as a result (or at least me personally) people are choosing to run pokemon that don't carry the extra ground weakness whilst still checking fighting types or rhydon. People are choosing to go with weezing or vileplume because of team building restrictions. For the standard balance team, garb is not the go-to choice right now and it's very clear to see.
However, it's the best spike stacker in the tier and can act as an excellent lure for rhydon with seed bomb. It makes me believe that it's a very 50/50 decision on whether or not it should keep it's rank whilst at the same time, i am thinking that it's time for it to drop a place. I'd like to see more discussion because at the moment i'm on the fence now thinking about it.
Aurorus: I can see aurorus fitting in the same boat as magmortar here a little bit as it has a lack of switch ins, makes me think it should rise but at the same time it's not like magmortar in many other senses as it doesn't add defensive synergy, it is slow as balls and in general it struggles against a very fast meta right now. I'd wait on this nomination a little bit because i am looking forward to the massive update this sunday lmao
Piloswine: Disagree with entirely. It's a one trick pony, can take a hit from most of the tier but it just lacks in so many areas and carries a lot of weakness. I would prefer to even see it in B rather than A, i'm not a big fan of it. It's threatened out by too much in the tier and is threatened by so many wallbreakers, but at the same time i'm not fussed on whether it drops, it should definitely not rise though imo.
Raichu: I've not seen it or faced it at all, using it myself though, it was very underwhelming. I wouldn't see it rise though however since it requires too much effort to whittle down its checks reliably whilst also adding no defensive synergy, it makes me wonder why would i want to use this over another fast threat in the tier such as archeops or tauros? it really doesn't add much in the way of niche and it makes me think that it doesn't warrant a rise.
for most of your posts... sorry... but:
If we are going to rank Clefairy can we seriously please rank Munchlax. The amount of stuff it can switch into and wall is absurd for a pokemon that isn't even D rank.
It is extremely reliable, special bulk + eviolite + thick fat means it walls most special attackers in the tier and in many instances takes a fraction of a fraction of what even max specially defensive Mega Audino would take.
Special fire and ice type attacks are abundant making thick fat extremely valuable. Even with Mega Audino's immense bulk most of the strong special attackers in the tier 3hko Audino forcing it to always be wish protecting which can give the opponent free turns. Munchlax while reliant on sleep talk threatens switch ins with a potential paralysis and chip damage all the time.
And in the cases of pokemon like Vivillon and Lilligant Munchlax deals with them easily. To make the comparison to the CroBino set, for audino they set up on it not fearing Dazzling Gleam in the slightest meaning you have to switch out. Munchlax beats them 1v1 with Body Slam hitting physically on top of potential paralysis they can't set up on you, even if they try good luck to them.
+6 252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 232-274 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 298-352 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Munchlax has always had two main sets in NU being Rest/SleepTalk/BodySlam/Curse or Rest/SleepTalk/BodySlam/Whirlwind. Before people struggled to find one that was better because not being able to touch ghosts versus sometimes being setup fodder made the last move very important. But now with drops like Shiftry and Skuntank it is very easy to pursuit trap ghost types to pave way for a curse lax sweep.
I am seriously not trying to oversell this thing though it has many major issues. Munchlax hates knock off, fears psyshock, and has a barren movepool limiting it really to only the two movesets listed above. There is definitely some competition from other normal walls but I feel like it definitely carves out a niche for itself honestly just by its freaking raw special bulk.
It walls so many things and is a reliable enough wall I think it deserves to be ranked although it shouldn't go over D. Being able to switch into the likes of pokemon like Aurorus and Pyroar and at most take like 20% from their strongest moves is just too funny.
Nice 6hko by Magmortar's Modest Life Orb Fire Blast (although that isn't surprising)
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 153-181 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 66-79 (13.9 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Speaking of Magmortor, neither of the two main Magmortar sets can 2hko it even with Focus Blast
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 195-231 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thick Fat Specially Defensive Miltank for reference
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 328-387 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Munchlax specially defensively actually straight beats Mega Audino in raw special bulk not even factoring in thick fat
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 374-442 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 429-504 (104.6 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 153-181 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 66-79 (13.9 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Speaking of Magmortor, neither of the two main Magmortar sets can 2hko it even with Focus Blast
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 195-231 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Thick Fat Specially Defensive Miltank for reference
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 328-387 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Munchlax specially defensively actually straight beats Mega Audino in raw special bulk not even factoring in thick fat
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 374-442 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 429-504 (104.6 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Special fire and ice type attacks are abundant making thick fat extremely valuable. Even with Mega Audino's immense bulk most of the strong special attackers in the tier 3hko Audino forcing it to always be wish protecting which can give the opponent free turns. Munchlax while reliant on sleep talk threatens switch ins with a potential paralysis and chip damage all the time.
And in the cases of pokemon like Vivillon and Lilligant Munchlax deals with them easily. To make the comparison to the CroBino set, for audino they set up on it not fearing Dazzling Gleam in the slightest meaning you have to switch out. Munchlax beats them 1v1 with Body Slam hitting physically on top of potential paralysis they can't set up on you, even if they try good luck to them.
+6 252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 232-274 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 298-352 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Munchlax has always had two main sets in NU being Rest/SleepTalk/BodySlam/Curse or Rest/SleepTalk/BodySlam/Whirlwind. Before people struggled to find one that was better because not being able to touch ghosts versus sometimes being setup fodder made the last move very important. But now with drops like Shiftry and Skuntank it is very easy to pursuit trap ghost types to pave way for a curse lax sweep.
I am seriously not trying to oversell this thing though it has many major issues. Munchlax hates knock off, fears psyshock, and has a barren movepool limiting it really to only the two movesets listed above. There is definitely some competition from other normal walls but I feel like it definitely carves out a niche for itself honestly just by its freaking raw special bulk.
It walls so many things and is a reliable enough wall I think it deserves to be ranked although it shouldn't go over D. Being able to switch into the likes of pokemon like Aurorus and Pyroar and at most take like 20% from their strongest moves is just too funny.
I think Clefairy does deserve D rank at least too. T-wave and stealth rocks does sound annoying. Thunder waving with soft boiled seems like a nice combo too. Sure a few pokes can sub on it, taunt it, have coverage for it, can knock off and sort of cripple it, BUT, it's not that passive and can heal up as a SR setter and this is not seen too often. Seems really solid in my opinion Teddeh
232+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
Just as a side note: I think Kecleon should move up to B rank. Kecleon can really put some damage on others with that STAB priority and revenge kill in the right moments. I think it's nice that Kecleon can take on Magmortar 1v1. I also like that Kecleon can take on a lot of the special side of the meta because it starts out as normal typing so it doesn't have to worry about super effective STAB hits & even if a pokemon like Magmortar goes for focus blast, you can predict and go for shadow sneak. Protean is just a really nice ability that Kecleon can abuse with it's special bulk, movepool, and coverage.
Kecleon has a lot of problems, primarily being its piss poor Speed and lack of defensive synergy. That means Kecleon has a very difficult time switching into battle, as a huge number of offensive Pokemon have little trouble 2HKOing Kecleon (you're being overambitious if you think Kecleon can keep Magmortar at bay for long). Once Kecleon (painstakingly) enters battle, it gets forced out by a multitude of defensive mons in the tier, because its physical movepool is either a) not strong enough for them, b) tailored specifically for them while hitting very little else, or c) simply not very effective against them. None of Kecleon's worthwhile physical moves breach 90 BP, so its neutral power can be lacking. Kecleon's special movepool is a bit better when it comes to wallbreaking, but it doesn't resolve the issue it has with its neutral power. Oh, and Kecleon's physical bulk is low, so most physical attackers in the tier have little trouble dispatching of Kecleon regardless of whatever type it currently is.
Kecleon has a lot more flaws than benefits: its poor Speed and physical bulk prevents it from staying too long in battle to make much notable impact, and it doesn't even have the raw power to make the most use of its colorful movepool (and of course, the low Speed is a large factor). If I wanted a priority spammer I'd resort to Kangaskhan, which is both fast and has great neutral power in Scrappy Double-Edge. Even if Kecleon tries a mix between its priority moves and wallbreaking attacks, either Shiftry or Cacturne make for stronger, more appealing candidates that still boast STAB Sucker Punch.
I haven't used Raichu at all but on paper it sounds really great against every team without a Lanturn. 110 Speed, good coverage, Nasty Plot, what else do you really need? Even teams with Lanturn probably aren't too bad for it because Lanturn really isn't all that difficult to wear down and can't really cripple Raichu either because of its immunity to Thunder Wave. Scald probably like 3HKOs it, but that still gives Raichu a turn to set up and then kill it after Lanturn has been worn down.
Clefairy is really cool. I used SpDef Clefairy a long while back, and it was nice. Thunder Wave means it actually does something about the stuff it switches into, and like Teddeh said, reliable recovery in one slot is really nice. Calm Mind is probably usable too, but I liked SpDef a lot more because it's much less prone to switching into Knock Off users (Dark-types, Fighting-types all carry Knock Off, and it wants to switch into both). Definitely D at worst.
I've been using Vigoroth and it has been really strong. Taunt shuts down a lot, and not much in this metagame runs it while also having good Speed to outrun everything it needs to and good bulk to switch into decently powerful attacks from defensive Pokemon like Garbodor's Gunk Shot. I've been using Return/Bulk Up/Taunt/Slack Off, and it's really cool because it gives you a way to break through fatter teams and also shut down slow setup Pokemon like Mega Audino and Musharna. It also doesn't even need to run that much Speed investment because it's base 90. I'm running enough to outspeed Adamant Sawk, and it takes like 120 Jolly I think. It doesn't necessarily rip apart stall because Quagsire still stops it cold, but it can force switches and prevent hazard removal, so with Spikes stacking, it's still good vs. stall even if the opponent has a Quagsire. Anyways, I think it's really good right now, and it could probably fit somewhere in C rank.
Like I said in the NU room the other day, I don't really get the massive community boner for Piloswine. It's like a worse Rhydon that does better against opposing Rhydon. It has good raw bulk, but that's about all that's going for it because its typing is average at best. It's not weak to much, but Fighting and Water are really common offensive types and it also only resists Poison, Electric, and Ice, which are all like ok cool whatever. Freeze-Dry resistance is nice but hardly mandatory most of the time because all the users are either pretty slow or pretty weak, so if your team gets dismantled by it, it's probably not great anyways. Like just use Rhydon.
Clefairy is really cool. I used SpDef Clefairy a long while back, and it was nice. Thunder Wave means it actually does something about the stuff it switches into, and like Teddeh said, reliable recovery in one slot is really nice. Calm Mind is probably usable too, but I liked SpDef a lot more because it's much less prone to switching into Knock Off users (Dark-types, Fighting-types all carry Knock Off, and it wants to switch into both). Definitely D at worst.
I've been using Vigoroth and it has been really strong. Taunt shuts down a lot, and not much in this metagame runs it while also having good Speed to outrun everything it needs to and good bulk to switch into decently powerful attacks from defensive Pokemon like Garbodor's Gunk Shot. I've been using Return/Bulk Up/Taunt/Slack Off, and it's really cool because it gives you a way to break through fatter teams and also shut down slow setup Pokemon like Mega Audino and Musharna. It also doesn't even need to run that much Speed investment because it's base 90. I'm running enough to outspeed Adamant Sawk, and it takes like 120 Jolly I think. It doesn't necessarily rip apart stall because Quagsire still stops it cold, but it can force switches and prevent hazard removal, so with Spikes stacking, it's still good vs. stall even if the opponent has a Quagsire. Anyways, I think it's really good right now, and it could probably fit somewhere in C rank.
Like I said in the NU room the other day, I don't really get the massive community boner for Piloswine. It's like a worse Rhydon that does better against opposing Rhydon. It has good raw bulk, but that's about all that's going for it because its typing is average at best. It's not weak to much, but Fighting and Water are really common offensive types and it also only resists Poison, Electric, and Ice, which are all like ok cool whatever. Freeze-Dry resistance is nice but hardly mandatory most of the time because all the users are either pretty slow or pretty weak, so if your team gets dismantled by it, it's probably not great anyways. Like just use Rhydon.
I'm really iffy on Raichu. Its not bulky enough to be a pivot like Lanturn and even at +2 its not that strong. +2 Grass Knot doesnt even 2hko standard Lanturn, so you have to either hit 2 focus blasts, or a grass knot then fblast, and usually you don't have both because you run Tbolt+NP+Encore.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 161-190 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I've had an idea for it tho, I call it LudiChu.
+
A standard RD Ludicolo+Raichu with Volt Switch/Encore/Thunder/Focus Blast seems threatening. Ludicolo hates mons like Dino, which can wish protect stall out Rain. The uncommon Mantine gives it trouble, as does Ferroseed although its shakey because it can't switch into rain boosted Hydro. Twave or protect stalling can fuck over Ludi. Raichu comes in as an electric absorber, check softener and sweeping partner. Volt Switch+Encore provide ample opportunities for you to get Ludi in easier for a RD. Raichu's set allows you to set up on, outright KO or soften the mons I mentioned above that give Ludi trouble. A few smaller benefits are Raichu being naturally fast whilst Ludi is slow without rain and Ludi can switch into EQs that Raichu hates. Honestly there isn't much that can stop Ludicolo in the meta rn, and giving it an easier time sweeping can be a death sentence for inexperienced players and give top people a headache.
This is all theorymon but ya know, maybe it will give someone out there the inspiration to try it out and prove me right/wrong.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 161-190 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I've had an idea for it tho, I call it LudiChu.
Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Encore
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Encore
A standard RD Ludicolo+Raichu with Volt Switch/Encore/Thunder/Focus Blast seems threatening. Ludicolo hates mons like Dino, which can wish protect stall out Rain. The uncommon Mantine gives it trouble, as does Ferroseed although its shakey because it can't switch into rain boosted Hydro. Twave or protect stalling can fuck over Ludi. Raichu comes in as an electric absorber, check softener and sweeping partner. Volt Switch+Encore provide ample opportunities for you to get Ludi in easier for a RD. Raichu's set allows you to set up on, outright KO or soften the mons I mentioned above that give Ludi trouble. A few smaller benefits are Raichu being naturally fast whilst Ludi is slow without rain and Ludi can switch into EQs that Raichu hates. Honestly there isn't much that can stop Ludicolo in the meta rn, and giving it an easier time sweeping can be a death sentence for inexperienced players and give top people a headache.
This is all theorymon but ya know, maybe it will give someone out there the inspiration to try it out and prove me right/wrong.
Last edited:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 234-278 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryI'm really iffy on Raichu. Its not bulky enough to be a pivot like Lanturn and even at +2 its not that strong. +2 Grass Knot doesnt even 2hko standard Lanturn, so you have to either hit 2 focus blasts, or a grass knot then fblast, and usually you don't have both because you run Tbolt+NP+Encore.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 161-190 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I've had an idea for it tho, I call it LudiChu.
+
Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Encore
A standard RD Ludicolo+Raichu with Volt Switch/Encore/Thunder/Focus Blast seems threatening. Ludicolo hates mons like Dino, which can wish protect stall out Rain. The uncommon Mantine gives it trouble, as does Ferroseed although its shakey because it can't switch into rain boosted Hydro. Twave or protect stalling can fuck over Ludi. Raichu comes in as an electric absorber, check softener and sweeping partner. Volt Switch+Encore provide ample opportunities for you to get Ludi in easier for a RD. Raichu's set allows you to set up on, outright KO or soften the mons I mentioned above that give Ludi trouble. A few smaller benefits are Raichu being naturally fast whilst Ludi is slow without rain and Ludi can switch into EQs that Raichu hates. Honestly there isn't much that can stop Ludicolo in the meta rn, and giving it an easier time sweeping can be a death sentence for inexperienced players and give top people a headache.
This is all theorymon but ya know, maybe it will give someone out there the inspiration to try it out and prove me right/wrong.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Grass Knot (40 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 159-187 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you're specifically worried about lanturn, just run hp grass instead.
Or don't run either and use the better coverage move: Focus Blast and achieve the same damage. Hits Piloswine and assorted ground types much harder than HP Grass, as well as covers random mons like Zweilous a tad better. And let's be honest, if you are using Raichu, its not like you care about missing, either. Might as well go for risk.
I really don't think it does relicanth justice to be in D rank. I'd use it in a heartbeat over most of the mons in C- and even C, and I definitely think it's a mid-c pokemon. The amount of Head Smash switchins in the tier is so limited that it isn't even funny, with even supposed checks such as Vileplume or MegaAudino, some of the most physically bulky pokemon in the tier being 2HKOed at worst by banded variants. Even physically defensive tangela will take a minimum of 40% on the switchin, so with hazards up it being a counter is a joke. Resists are normally easily dealt with by its STAB waterfall to. Even without a choice band it makes for a great Glue SR user on offensive teams as it has the bulk to eat Fake Outs and priority and stuff while still having the power to wallbreak for offensve partners to sweep. While Carracosta may appear to outclass it due to aqua jet, Relicanth is surprisingly fast with 55 base speed allowing it to actually jump a good portion of the meta, and with its immense power is much more suited to bait out and kill certain pokemon that threaten offense anyways.
Ive been using raichu alot lately with the team brawlfest gave me. (thx alot btw, awesome team). And imo its as good on paper as it is in practice. Its speed tier is great and at +2 it hits pretty much everything with hp ice fblast and tbolt coverage really hard. Most offensive mons drop, and pokemon like musharna still lose 1v1 since raichus sp def is good enough to chew up hits from weak sp attackers like uninvested musharna and mega audino. Its immunity to twave is also really helpful, since bulky twavers cant stop its sweep. Lanturn is not a very reliable counter since it is easy to wear down and focus blast at + 2 does over 50% to standard lanturn. Which means if it hits two in row it wins 1v1.
Whats not so good about it is that its defence sucks. It is also very hard to build around. I have tried and failed multiple times. Its one defensive role is basically stopping your opponent from spamming volt switch with fast electric types like the rotoms.
However, I think people are seriously underestimating raichu, and in my opinion it deserves atleast B+. If it was up to me I would put it in A- or maybe even A.
Whats not so good about it is that its defence sucks. It is also very hard to build around. I have tried and failed multiple times. Its one defensive role is basically stopping your opponent from spamming volt switch with fast electric types like the rotoms.
However, I think people are seriously underestimating raichu, and in my opinion it deserves atleast B+. If it was up to me I would put it in A- or maybe even A.
Hey guys, the Viability Council will be discussing some of the pressing concerns with our current Ranks! You can follow the discussion by joining «groupchat-disjunction-nuvr»
starting at in 6 min
starting at in 6 min
Hp grass helps deal with mons like quagsire that can wall entire teams, and can reliable kill threatening setup mons like rhydon. I get the whole "it's already suboptimal so who cares if you miss" argument, but focus blast is just so inaccurate that really simple necessary things like failing to finish off weakened mons or missing out on important chip damage becomes far too common.
Having the chance to miss 1/3 times seems like an unnecessary handicap to play around, especially if you're only trying to get off neutral damage.
http://pastebin.com/NtxDeysf logs for anyone who missed it
P much the definitions were hammered out and the viability council will be working on the rankings over the next week.
Definitions:
#Disjunction: passive, outclassed, weak to hazards, speed, general bulk, matchup
#Disjunction: for negatives
#Disjunction: Splashability, reliability, consistency, threat level, and effect on metagame
#Disjunction: for positives
A lot of these tie into each other and we are going to be a lot harsher on things as well as utilize the E rank for everyones favorite shit mons.
--
A more detailed explanation will be given for how each of the ranks work as well as the overall definition once the rankings are completed. We will keep you updated.
P much the definitions were hammered out and the viability council will be working on the rankings over the next week.
Definitions:
#Disjunction: passive, outclassed, weak to hazards, speed, general bulk, matchup
#Disjunction: for negatives
#Disjunction: Splashability, reliability, consistency, threat level, and effect on metagame
#Disjunction: for positives
A lot of these tie into each other and we are going to be a lot harsher on things as well as utilize the E rank for everyones favorite shit mons.
--
A more detailed explanation will be given for how each of the ranks work as well as the overall definition once the rankings are completed. We will keep you updated.
good going guys, looking forward to the new VR
is it still appropriate to make nominations since the Viability Ranking's will be changing soon??
Discussion can still continue on a mons viability, I'll leave it open cause its always good to hear other people's opinions on things. Just keep in mind that a lot of things will (hopefully) be changing ranks to give a starting spot for discussion and to set the tone of how the rankings will be from then on.
----> D RankGothitelle has just dropped to NU but it still has nothing over any psychic types in the lower tiers because of shadow tag being banned. a CM set is out-classed by musharna, an all out attacker is out-classed by mesprite and kadabra, and a support set is out-classed by grumpig. The only thing that I have found to make it "unique" would be ironically Mean Look, goth can use CM mean look against some offensively weak walls with resto chesto but its still a horrible or mediocre set, it could also run toxic mean look with rest chesto but still is a pretty bad niche. mirror coat is also an option but even than its not that worth while. It could be used on TR but musharna is arguably better at that as well because of its slower speed and high spa stat while goth is faster, lower spa, but with better defenses outside of hp. In conclusion, Gothitelle is sub par at almost everything it does by other psychic's and the only "niche" it could find is still bad and is almost always not worth while. Goth -> D Rank
(Edit)- Competitive would be a reason to use this to help stop people from removing hazards and to abuse sticky web.
Last edited:
While I disagree with Mar1onette about its niches (Competitive the only reason you'd use this trash), I agree that Gothitelle struggles to thrive in the meta as it is. The key issues with it lie in that it is a competitive user which loses to most Defog users courtesy of its typing (the two main defoggers (Shiftry and Skuntank) beat it with their STABs) and mediocre speed in conjunction with its lack of priority options. This means that it is very difficult to isolate a scenario in which it is worth using over Pawniard for hazard protection purposes, and its poor synergy with spinblockers such as Haunter, Rotom and the Misdreavus line doesn't help its cause all that much either. Gothitelle is mediocre as it struggles to set itself apart from other Psychic-types and other Defog discouragers (namely Pawniard, who has a shot at taking on the two key Defog users due to it resisting both of their STABs), and this results in something which had potential that fails to materialise due to its key traits.
Gothitelle to D
Gothitelle to D
Sometimes it's better that way, adds more to discussion & gives another view on the topic at hand. Not to mention, you're proving why you agree, which seems better in the long run. Hope this answered your question.
- Status