Metagame On The Ubers Radar

[K1rbyf4nb0y]

Just ban Ubers Pokemon (Maybe with the exception of Galarian Darmanitan and maybe Melmetal) from Dynamaxing. Pokemon from OU and Below can Dynamax.

 

[Albi]

I think that if we want to do a simple ban, we can just ban dynamax as a whole. I know, it takes away some depth but let’s be honest, aside from some notable exceptions (excadrill, Dracovish, hatterene and others I’m probably forgetting cause they’re rare) non Uber mons are usually defensive ones, you almost never dynamax them if not to live one more hit and revenge kill but that’s still very situational.
Otherwise, if we want to keep the mechanic we are kinda forced to do a complex ban like that suggested by Mewtwo melee, banning current Uber mons and then analysing case by case what comes next with the dlc, banning whatever becomes too broken.
in my opinion both solutions are viable, it just depends on whether we want a complex ban or not. I think that the other options are incomplete and we will end up analysing case by case anyway.
What's important is that we basically all agree on banning dynamax from Uber mons, I'm tired of getting swept by Zekrom after one DD and dynamax on turn 2 lol.

 

[clare]

I'm not convinced that a blanket ban on Dynamax Ubers is the perfect solution, since the problem right now seems to lie with boosting sweepers. After setting up on a forced switch, sweepers can Dynamax, which, thanks to doubled HP, defensive boosts, and Speed boosts, makes them incredibly hard to revenge kill. There's precious little defensive counterplay in Ubers to sweepers already (and to salt the wounds, Dynamax 'mons can't be phazed out), meaning most teams will rely on some form of revenge killing to prevent sweepers from 6-0'ing them. Severely limiting that option leaves boosted Dynamax Ubers with practically no counterplay, offensive or defensive.

For example (I'm planning for Crowned Tundra, hence some of the Pokemon don't exist yet):

252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 347-411 (43.5 - 51.6%)

The most powerful Dark move in the game usually fails to 2HKO Dynamax Dusk Mane.

4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 201-240 (25.2 - 30.1%)

Sucker Punch (which you'll need to use if Trick Room is up) does laughable damage.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Dynamax Xerneas: 288-338 (36.6 - 43%)

Banded Technician Bullet Punch is only a 3HKO, and Scizor might not even exist.

252+ SpA Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Sun: 544-640 (68.3 - 80.4%)

Reshiram's Sun-boosted Blue Flare is one of the most nuclear attacks in the game, and yet it fails to OHKO Dusk Mane.

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Zekrom: 474-558 (69.5 - 81.8%)

You know it's a problem when a 120BP super effective STAB move coming off of 180 base attack with maximum investment fails to OHKO. Also, Primal Groudon and Precipice Blades may or may not exist.

In contrast, I think defensive Dynamax brings an interesting depth to the tier. Ubers has traditionally been offensively inclined, ranging from hyper-offensive to a more balanced bulky offense. Dynamax doesn't help stall (you lose your status moves), which is probably fine, but bulkier builds will have something to play with - for example, Dynamaxing Ho-Oh or Lunala to survive coverage moves.

Now obviously I'm not saying we should ban "Dynamax on Pokemon with over 670 BST and setup moves", as that is ludicrously complex, but I think its food for thought. One option which was thrown around OU would be to limit Dynamax to a 50% HP boost, which doesn't deal with the Speed boosts from Max Airstream, but at least helps revenge killing.

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok, when this was first floated in the metagame discussion a couple of days after HOME came out, I went on the record opposing touching Dynamax in Ubers, especially so soon after HOME's release. I have changed my mind on this after much thought, and I want to discuss why.

Firstly I'd like to dismiss the "Defensive Dynamax is bad" argument. That argument applied in OU because of defensive walls being unsuited to dealing damage, and Dynamax forced them down that route, eliminating their means of dealing with attackers. Walls prefer to phase and cripple attackers than trying to beat them head-on, which is what Dynamax forced them to do.
But the situation is different in Ubers. Ubers prefer tanks to walls in general, for two reasons.
1. The natural high stats and hence bulk of Uber mons allows many offensive mons to double as defensive tanks, and Uber defensive threats tend to be capable of dealing significant damage, again due to their high stats total, which pushes them towards defensively inclined tanks rather than outright walls.
2. The power level of Uber attackers means phasing them is very difficult. Many of them can break most naive all-out defensive backbones unboosted, and Uber mons tend to find it easier to boost multiple times, again thanks to their bulk, until they break the wall in front of them. Just spamming Recover on Pex is not enough to stop an Uber. This means Uber defensive mons need to be able to deal enough damage to dissuade setup from most opponents.
Why is this relevant? I would argue that Dynamax is much, much more suited to tanks than walls. Tanks are bulky enough to get by on passive recovery and can use Dynamax to deal massive damage to the attacker even if the attacker Dynamaxes. This dissuades Dynamaxing attackers far more than passive walls. The tank can still use Max Guard twice to stall Dynamax, but on the turn between, it does something far more impactful than a wall, enabling it to win the 1v1 when Dynamax ends. Compare:
0 SpA Toxapex Max Geyser vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dynamax Zekrom: 42-50 (6.1 - 7.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Zekrom: 114-135 (16.7 - 19.7%) Reasonable, and comes with +1 Def. It can also Max Quake for around 50% damage.

But really, the more I think about this, the more stupid this mechanic is. I was asking earlier why it was that no-one was worried about Dynamax pre-HOME. Well, I think I've found the answer.
Ditto.
Ditto already was an auto-run on many pre-Home Ubers teams just to stop Zacian. It had 33% usage in OU when Dynamax was allowed, and with good reason. Ditto is a great way to insure yourself against a Dynamax sweep. But. Dynamax disables its Choice Scarf. So if it Dynamaxes at the same time as the opponent, the game comes down to a speed tie. Or does it? As an example, take Cleaner Reshiram (not sure how viable this is, but it was the first example of this that came to mind).
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Max Wyrmwind vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dynamax Reshiram: 434-512 (63.6 - 75%)
252 SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Max Wyrmwind vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dynamax Reshiram (Ditto): 434-512 (91.5 - 108%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ouch. The bulk of Uber mons returns to haunt us. Ditto copies everything about the target EXCEPT its HP. While the difference in HP between OU staples like Togekiss and Ditto may be managable, the gap to Uber HP values is too much for our poor blobby friend. Uber mons lean towards a 3 digit HP value, which is often too much bulk for Ditto to match. So the only way Ditto can check mons like these is to wait until their Dynamax is exhausted, then attempt to revenge kill with the aid of Dynamax. But this brings me on to a second point:

The way Dynamax was balanced, it is very clear the game expects you to use your own Dynamax to deal with opposing Dynamax. Max Guard stalling a Dyna is possible, and may balance out the metagame. But there was one comment I saw on the Nat Dex AG VR:

Not only does Yveltal have 0 counterplay (ttar? focusblast bye. chansey? taunt/koff bye. AV tapukoko? okay) but the best thing to do in order to have the best matchup possible vs it is... using your own yveltal and being the last to dynamax.

I've thought about this a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that Dynamax is basically a game of chicken. Whoever blinks first and uses their Dynamax loses the game unless the opponent has no answer for your Dyna'ed mon. TBH, this about sums up the mess that is this mechanic. The optimal play against certain Dynas is to sac 3 mons, then Dyna your revenge killer to reverse sweep. Uhh. That makes total sense... In Nat Dex AG, there are mons like Xern where you have to not Dmax from Team Preview unless you can OHKO them before they set up. I was willing to look on the bright side of this mechanic in Ubers and AG. Counter strats have been found. Balance metas are evolving. Perhaps it is worth the BS to get a metagame where you can Dmax to not get swept by Zacian-C. And then I saw this on the Doubles thread:

When do we decide Dynamax is just too good instead of banning 5 things to keep it alive?

Apparently Dynamax was made with Doubles in mind? But even there it's a stupid mechanic that suffers from games of chicken and centralizing games around its use. If it can't be balanced there, how is it to be balanced in singles?

Anyway, I think overall, the decision to be made here isn't "Is Dynamax broken AF", lol we all know it is. The decision is "Are we happy with the ENTIRE metagame being dictated by the Dynamax abuser of the week?" On the two proposals thusfar:
Banning Dyna on mons with a certain BST or higher:
I genuinely don't think this is going to work. Grouping Solgaleo and Necrozma DW with Zekrom as equal abusers of the mechanic is laughable. But more importantly, there are mons which miss the 680 BST limit suggested above and abuse the hell out of Dynamax. In particular, looking to the future, Kyogre and Groudon miss this threshold, as they actually have 670 BST (as do Slaking and Regigigas btw). EDIT: mb, 670 was the suggested limit earlier. We could drop the threshold to 670, but then mons like Marshadow (and possibly in the future Deoxys and Shaymin-S) are fair game at 600 BST. Where do we stop? Also BST is dismissed in CAP as a reliable measure of a Pokemon's power, so a limit on BST is rather inherently arbitrary and weak.
Banning Dyna on a list of mons:
This might work. But it would be incredibly time-consuming to ban every abuser from Dynamaxing one by one. And there isn't really a better way of doing it (how do we know X is broken when Y is better etc). And then the DLCs drop and we have to start again, possibly even looking into unbanning old Dyna mons. The suspect processes could take the rest of Gen 8. And it's not very much in the spirit of Ubers to be suspecting things every 5 minutes. Then there's the argument of "remove one brick and the wall comes tumbling down". Specifically, how would we handle Necrozma DM? As a Dynamax abuser, it's absurdly powerful. But if it can't Dynamax, then it can no longer check a vast proportion of what it needs to check to hold the metagame together. Would we resort to "broken checks broken" here?

I'm not claiming to have a solution here. But like I said, whichever of the above we decide on, we will either way have to accept the metagame WILL be dictated by Dynamax. AG does exist for a reason. While it is the policy of Ubers to try and preserve as much as possible, I wonder if there will come a point where we say "enough is enough".

 

[NoxAlbus]

There was once a time when Ubers was just the OU banlist. That time is over.
OUBL should be differentiated from Ubers.

 

[Highlord]

Looks like there was some discussion about banning dynamax according to certain characteristics like BST and/or tier however:

• BST gives some idea of whether dynamax is too powerful for the meta but is not a flawless metric.
• Tier also gives some idea of whether dynamax is too powerful for the meta but is still not a flawless metric.

There is no universal rule to tackle every problematic case of dynamax, so a custom list seems justified especially considering only a small number of mons are harming the meta. I like MM2’s suggestion to start with a basic ban list of dynamax mons that are obviously broken and proceed to optimize the list down the line by including or removing more mons.

For example, the list could start with just Uber mons and later remove mons like Galarian Darm and include mons like Ditto if required.

Also, a custom ban list is nothing new; consider an analogy with mega evolution from past generations:

• In generations 6 and 7, Rayquaza is Ubers, but Mega Rayquaza is AG.
• In generations 6 and 7, Lucario is OU, but Mega Lucario is Ubers.
• In generations 6 and 7, Blaziken is Ubers, and Mega Blaziken is also Ubers.

With Dynamax:

• In generation 8, Mewtwo is Ubers, but dynamax Mewtwo is AG.
• In generation 8, Hatterene is OU, but dynamax Hatterene is Ubers.
• In generation 8, Galarian Darm is Ubers, and dynamax Galarian Darm is also (probably) Ubers.

In OU’s case, the list of broken Dynamax mons would be too long, so the best solution was to ban everything, but for Ubers, a custom ban is more suitable because there isn’t much to ban.

 

[Ortheore]

Firstly, I don't think it's feasible to develop a conditional ban on dynamaxing without failing to cover certain problematic pokemon and/or adding a ton of collateral* and/or adding other undesirable dynamics (e.g. if allowing dynamaxing based on tiering, then the meta would be subject to OU's tiering decisions). There simply aren't any good criteria that accomplish this. This leaves either a blanket ban on dynamaxing, or case-by-case decision-making.

Personally, I am in favour of a blanket ban. From a logistical standpoint it's FAR easier, as case-by-case decision-making would require a constant circus of suspects in the same way OU normally does. Furthermore, I think that dynamaxing is likely to cause such persistent and widespread issues that it's reasonable to label it as something that's toxic to competitive gameplay regardless, with it only being tolerated until now because all of the strongest threats weren't capable of utilising it. Hell, this is backed up by some of the opinions expressed on the matter- many people simply hate the mechanic, and aren't pointing to specific abusers as disrupting competitive balance, instead referring to the mechanic in general. In such a scenario, the logical course of action would be to directly target the problem, rather than constantly playing whack-a-mole, chasing the next instance of this mechanic being broken

*I am in favour of a blanket ban, which obviously introduces way more collateral than a conditional one. The difference between a blanket ban and a conditional one, is that a blanket ban does not attempt to minimise collateral and thus its efficacy should not be judged on that criterion (whether you value that collateral is another matter entirely). A conditional ban does attempt to minimise collateral, but it does a terrible job of it, creating scenarios where your stated goals/ideals in decision-making are made a mockery of by what is actually produced (e.g. trash like Slaking getting hit by a BST cutoff). I guess it's supposed to be a compromise between simplicity/uniformity and attempting to minimise collateral, but instead it fails at all of those goals

In OU’s case, the list of broken Dynamax mons would be too long, so the best solution was to ban everything, but for Ubers, a custom ban is more suitable because there isn’t much to ban.

Idk about this. It's only 3 pokemon that are incapable of dynamaxing, leaving basically every other pokemon with ubers-level power capable of running amok with dynamax, which is still a lot imo. It may have worked until home, but now there are way more abusers and the number of problematic threats is only going to grow larger as more DLC gets added

 

[orch]

I'd rather if we didn't ban/restrict dynamax but the demand is obviously there.

If we're going to ban dynamax, I'd like to see a ban list of initial ubers+ dynamax. No pokemon that is sent up by suspect test should get dynamax banned. This means that dynamax mewtwo is banned but not dynamax darm-g.

 

[theotherguytm]

I'd rather if we didn't ban/restrict dynamax but the demand is obviously there.

If we're going to ban dynamax, I'd like to see a ban list of initial ubers+ dynamax. No pokemon that is sent up by suspect test should get dynamax banned. This means that dynamax mewtwo is banned but not dynamax darm-g.

Garm was quickbanned not suspected. And if quickbanned mons (as opposed to instant banned mons like Zacian) are allowed to Dmax, that means Black Kyurem can, but White Kyurem and garbage like Solgaleo and Necrozma DW can't...

 

[SiTuM]

didnt want to post as its already been said but seems like we need other opinions on this, i've played a lot of ladder games and some seasonal games, my only point is dynamax makes a lot of set up mons completely retarded but no one even plays them that much because of the threat ditto creates, imagine having a +2 atk +2 speed ditto as dusk mane dynamaxed that can change moves but also can be faster than everything if it doesnt dynamax...

whatever please ban dynamax as fast as possible it's the worst mechanic pokemon has ever created

 

[orch]

Garm was quickbanned not suspected. And if quickbanned mons (as opposed to instant banned mons like Zacian) are allowed to Dmax, that means Black Kyurem can, but White Kyurem and garbage like Solgaleo and Necrozma DW can't...

Kube dynamax is unlikely to be overpowered. Quick banned ubers should be allowed to dynamax.

As for garbage instaubers, I'd like to follow mm2's plan to test them and allow them in tier if deemed not broken.

 

[theotherguytm]

Kube dynamax is unlikely to be overpowered. Quick banned ubers should be allowed to dynamax.

As for garbage instaubers, I'd like to follow mm2's plan to test them and allow them in tier if deemed not broken.

I think what you're trying to say is Black Kyurem+Dynamax is ok? Let me assure you it is not. With a single Dragon Dance into Dyna, Black Kyurem becomes, like all Dmax sweepers, unwallable by anything short of Max Guard.

Sample the devastation

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 300-355 (85.2 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery (ouch)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Lightning vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 300-354 (92 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (faster and this is with no E Terrain)
+1 252+ Atk Zacian Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black: 486-572 (62.1 - 73.1%) (rip scarf Zacian)
4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Quake vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 406-478 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (rip this thanks to Earth Power)

And God forbid it doesn't use its 125/100/90 bulk and respectable typing to get to +2.

Woe betide ye

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm vs. +6 252 HP / 240 Def Eternatus: 281-330 (58 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Black Sludge recovery (This is Plus 6 Eternatus!)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Max Lightning vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 374-441 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (OUCH)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shadow Shield Lunala: (54.8 - 64.5%) (Shadow Shield is broken on the calc, so I just used Dyna, and once again, ouch)

And lest we forget Freeze Shock Power Herb is a thing so it can nuke for 4 turns.

Looks great, from a very long way away

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Freeze Shock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 337-397 (104.9 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Not with my boosts you don't)
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 333-393 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, hail damage, and Leftovers recovery (setup fodder)
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Mewtwo: 612-720 (86.6 - 101.9%) (Don't you just love OHKOing Dynaed mons after Rocks?)

And for Ditto fans:

Imposter!

+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black: 510-600 (65.2 - 76.7%)
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm (Icicle Spear) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black: 519-612 (66.3 - 78.2%) (if it wins the speed tie)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm (Icicle Spear) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black (Ditto): 675-795 (112.5 - 132.5%)

Yeah, this thing would be totally fine being unrevengeable for 3 turns and nuking every wall.

 

[NoxAlbus]

And for Ditto fans:

Imposter!

+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black: 510-600 (65.2 - 76.7%)
+2 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm (Icicle Spear) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black: 519-612 (66.3 - 78.2%) (if it wins the speed tie)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Max Hailstorm (Icicle Spear) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dynamax Kyurem-Black (Ditto): 675-795 (112.5 - 132.5%)

Yeah, this thing would be totally fine being unrevengeable for 3 turns and nuking every wall.

Throwing Dynamax Ditto into AG may help

If we're going to ban dynamax, I'd like to see a ban list of initial ubers+ dynamax.

Basically, we need to do GF's job. They forgot the other Ubers and we can have rules that help with balance and saves dynamax at least for Ubers

 

[Rarycaris]

And if quickbanned mons (as opposed to instant banned mons like Zacian)

I don't see a useful point of distinction here, given that the point of quickbans is "this should have been on the initial banlist". This is especially pertinent in cases like Kyurem-B, where the reason for its ban was that the basis for it being OU was invalidated by mechanical changes. I'm strongly opposed to treating these two categories differently, If we want to pick and choose what can and cannot Dynamax beyond the well defined category of "box legendaries", it should be done by actual testing -- though it's mostly a foregone conclusion that every box legendary would be banned anyway.

Dynamax Ditto should absolutely be banned anyway, else we're getting into the territory of pet-modding the format. I still think banning the mechanic entirely is the best solution, and it's one which leaves plenty of space for a true-to-cartridge AG to flourish.

Basically, we need to do GF's job. They forgot the other Ubers and we can have rules that help with balance and saves dynamax at least for Ubers

I don't think they forgot the other Ubers. The Galar legendaries aren't blocked from Dynamaxing because they're ubers; they're blocked from Dynamaxing because lore wise they're anti-Dynamax, and they have signature moves which basically negate Dynamax to represent this. If Calyrex has an anti-Dynamax move, I would expect it to also be unable to Dynamax.

 

[Terracotta]

I will give my opinion even if everyone in the community already knows my point of view, but before that, I would like to remind everyone of a few points about the Dynamax mechanic.

As we all know, Dynamax possesses some amazing qualities:
- All mons that Dynamax have their HP doubled for the next three turns, giving them the possibility to resist multiples hits; this is a good thing for both defensive and offensive mons. Defensive mons can avoid important 2HKOs and kill off an important threat (for example, Dynamaxing your Corviknight vs Wild Charge Zacian). On the other hand, offensive mons becomes less prone to being revenge killed. Various examples of this were noted in other posts.
-Another important part is that the moves of the Dynamaxed mon gain a secondary effect and a power boost as well in most cases. As a result, the Dynamaxed mon gains the ability to achieve some OHKOs or 2HKOs that would otherwise be impossible. Dynamax also boosts stats, decrease opponent stats, and can set up either weather or terrain that may help the team or the Dynamaxed mon even after the Dynamax turns end.
There are plenty of examples, but some of the most important are:
the defensive boosts Necrozma-Dusk Mane gets, Lunala setting up misty terrain so that it avoids Toxic or T-wave and Excadrill setting sand for itself.
Considering these points, can we say that Dynamax is inherently broken? As we were discussing with some other community members, it’s all about semantics. However, one thing is for sure the truth: Dynamax was nowhere unhealthy for the metagame pre-home. On the contrary, it gave niches to a lot of mons and made the metagame more dynamic and variable. In fact, even the most offensive users such as Hatterne and Excadrill had counterplays. You could Dynamax defensively to take more hits and stall the three turns in a way where you wouldn’t lose too much.

The problems started after the release of some new old mons like Necrozma-Dusk Mane, Lunala, Zekrom, Mewtwo, and the like, but why? Well, when you give Dynamax to already strong mons that have multiple ways to set up and impressive bulk, this mechanic becomes broken for multiple reasons:
First of all, it limits a lot of your teambuilding as you need two checks or one check and a revenge killer for each of these mons that I mentioned and even that is not enough sometimes.
This situation happens because of your ability to set your defensive boosts during the Dynamax turns. As such, even if you can play around the three turns, you will still have to go over an overly boosted mon or sack multiple mons to be able to neutralize it.
The mon that represents this situation would be Necrozma-Dusk Mane if it were not clear already. Its solid bulk and ability that already gives it a lot of chances to set up is paired with the Dynamax mechanic. Moreover, its moveset gives it the ability to boosts both defense and special defense, making this mon nearly impossible to block once it sets up.
Other examples are Zekrom setting terrain for itself. With the newly added Dragon Dance, it becomes a terrifying mon to check.
By saying this, I don’t want to generalize Dynamax as an unhealthy mechanic, but it is a really good mechanic that gives already strong mons too many tools so that they can play around all their normal checks. As a result, only a limited number of possible building styles are optimal or even playable.

What I would desire to see is a complex ban for this mechanic. As I have already said a lot of times, it somewhat helps the metagame overall by giving tools to otherwise suboptimal mons in both offensive or defensive roles.

So what would be the best way to do so? BST or tiering?
I consider BST as an inferior option because you would let out of this ban mons like Marshadow, which is a really hard mon to check with his perfect dual stab that has 0 resists.
As such, I think that a suspect based on the mons that are present in the uber tier would be the most optimal choice now right now. We should have a second suspect after DLC2 once we have more information on the metagame. We will have new toys like Landorus and Salamence that will never be banned from OU. However, thanks to this mechanic, they will become really strong and maybe even unhealthy in Ubers. Even by considering this, theorizing too much doesn’t give any solutions, and as a tier, we really need to do something as fast as possible. The tier right now is really hard to enjoy or even play cause idt people are enjoying a boost and guess metagame.

 

[2bainz]

Just want to preface this post by saying I'm not the biggest Ubers player, but I wanted to weigh in on what I've read in this thread so far. Basically, it seems like there are 4 options for limiting Dynamax:

1. Clause saying Pokemon classified as Ubers cannot Dynamax. This seems unideal as OU tiering policy would then directly affect the Ubers metagame, like in the example of Kartana being OU and being able to Dynamax, only for a scenario where it gets banned in OU and cannot Dynamax any longer. And non-Ubers Pokemon could still be overbearing with this type of clause, meaning more individual mons would have to be banned alongside it.
2. Clause limiting Dynamax based on BST (670 or 600 or 570). This would be better than option 1 since it would have no external factors affecting it, but would cause some collateral damage by preventing things like Slaking, Regigigas and other unviable mons the ability to Dynamax. Say in a 600 BST limit, Celebi dynamaxing and Necrozma-DM dynamaxing are two different levels of threats, but they would both be blanket banned. And what would happen if there are still problematic Dynamaxers right below the BST threshold, like if it was set at 570, but 540 BST Gyarados is still hugely overbearing, would there be additional bans beyond the BST Clause?
3. Clause limiting Dynamax if they are classified as legendary/mythical/"rare". This is similar to option 2, but might be more PR friendly as more outsiders might understand a Legendary Dynamax ban better than an arbitrary BST number. Still has the problems of collateral damage and broken Dynamax mons that just aren't classified in a "rare" category.
3. Individually quickban/suspect every problematic Dynamaxer. This would be the scenario that causes the least collateral damage and keeps the widest variety on mons still able to Dynamax. But it would mean Ubers might have a state of perpetual suspect tests or arguments of what is and isn't broken, as more legendaries return via DLC. I am not sure if the wider Ubers playerbase would like that or not.

So all four options have major tradeoffs associated with them. If Ubers players really want to preserve Dynamax, then I think option 2/3 would be best, as although there would be collateral damage and possibly problematic mons outside of the clause, it would limit the biggest abusers of Dynamax, while not having constant suspect tests in the tier. Otherwise, the community could simply decide Dynamax is too powerful overall in Singles and ban it, making Anything Goes the "Dynamax tier". There's no perfect solution that will satisfy everyone, so I hope more people weigh in on this.

 

[theotherguytm]

Throwing Dynamax Ditto into AG may help

If you look at the calcs you are quoting, you'll see that Ditto LOSES the 1v1 with +2 Dyna Black Kyurem.

Dynamax Ditto should absolutely be banned anyway, else we're getting into the territory of pet-modding the format.

Once again though, like Necrozma DM, banning Ditto from Dynamaxing would be removing the brick that holds the wall up. Ditto's massive use to check Zacian was a huge part of why Dyna was balanced pre-Home, as Ditto's usage would be absurd with or without Dyna. But now we have Dyna sweepers Ditto cannot handle. I agree with the rest of what you posted. No matter what complex ban we decide on, Dynamax WILL centralize the metagame around which sweepers escape the net.

 

[G-Luke]

I like your point, but Dynamax was a bit of a problem even pre-home. There were tons of Pokemon walling other Pokemon and using stat boosts and weather conditions every battle. It should be realized that the Dynamax mechanic in any metagame is something to be wary of, since almost any Pokemon is able to abuse it freely. As more Pokemon come back in the game, Dynamax will be more of a high risk of ban, since there will be so much more Pokemon that can abuse this mechanic. It is not always the Pokemon that uses Dynamax, but it is the mechanic itself. Take all of the other tiers that have banned Dynamax for example (LC, OU, Monotype, UU, etc.) and none of them ever put a Dynamax clause on any specific Pokemon, because take a look at all the other Pokemon that can use Dynamax for many functions rather than just Uber Pokemon (or in this case, the specific "overpowered" Pokemon I have listed in the other metagames that have banned Dynamax.) If we ban Dynamax by itself, then not only will the Uber pokemon no longer use it, but other Pokemon wont get to abuse it, either. In simple words, there should be no reason to put a Dynamax clause on only Uber pokemon when there are other non-User pokemon that abuse it just well. The other metagames that I have listed are a perfect example of that.

Anyway, I think we should just ban Dynamax as a whole because it seems to be a huge problem around alot of metagames. I think banning Dynamax to AG would be a good idea, since it seems to be fine there. The people above me have also made some points about Dynamax being banned. Feel free to reply or react to my comment with Angry if you disagree, I guess.

(Also, not saying that Dynamax was as much of a problem before home, but there were a couple of abusers that still made it frustrating to fight against.)

"Frustrating to fight against" =/= Broken. Especially within the context of the Uber metagame. Fact of the matter is, no Pokemon was broken with dynamax in Ubers pre Home. Checking the viability rankings, very little Pokémon are listed purely due to their strength when dynamaxed. Excadrill is great with or without Dynamax, and is not difficult to beat. If that were the case we would of had this argument a long time ago. I support a BST ban, and as the metagame progresses we can further explore what we shouod do. We have the ability to explore an Ubers metagame where non Uber Pokemon can go toe to toe with box legendaries. I dont think we should dispose of this possibility

 

[Rarycaris]

but would cause some collateral damage by preventing things like Slaking, Regigigas and other unviable mons the ability to Dynamax.

Is there any particular reason why a BST ban can't specifically exclude Slaking and Regigigas? I don't think "670+ BST or has Power Construct, and does not have Truant or Slow Start" is particularly complex, given the obviously intuitive intent, and now that Kyu-B is Uber, it covers every corner case I can think of except for Hoopa-U if it's reintroduced. It does mean that Aura Break Zygarde can Dynamax while Power Construct Zygarde can't, but I don't see an issue there.

The list can be modified if there are ever any future 670+ BST mons that are supposed to be balanced by awful abilities, but since the last one was introduced 13 years ago, we're probably good unless the speculation about Galarian Regigigas pans out.

 

[Ballfire]

Is there any particular reason why a BST ban can't specifically exclude Slaking and Regigigas? I don't think "670+ BST or has Power Construct, and does not have Truant or Slow Start" is particularly complex, given the obviously intuitive intent, and now that Kyu-B is Uber, it covers every corner case I can think of except for Hoopa-U if it's reintroduced. It does mean that Aura Break Zygarde can Dynamax while Power Construct Zygarde can't, but I don't see an issue there.

The list can be modified if there are ever any future 670+ BST mons that are supposed to be balanced by awful abilities, but since the last one was introduced 13 years ago, we're probably good unless the speculation about Galarian Regigigas pans out.

At that point we might as well make a custom banlist without considering BST

 

[Jeck95]

My 2 cents about this is that you either ban dynamax completely from ubers or keep it. Any complex ban on dynamax in ubers has bigger issues than the issues that would arise from completely banning dynamax.

1) Banning dynamax from ubers classified pokemon wouldn't cover pokemon like ditto and baton pass pokemon that can still use dynamax really well. You shouldn't let ditto dynamax while denying ubers pokemon from dynamaxing. Not to mention this wouldn't cover ou or below pokemon that can abuse dynamax really well currently or in the future.
2) Banning dynamax for pokemon above a certain BST leaves the same ditto and some baton pass pokemon problem as before. Ditto technically only has a BST of 288 which is really low even though the only base stat that matters for it is hp. Even if you make a specific clause for ditto, baton pass pokemon tend to not have the greatest BSTs (espeon's BST is 525 for example).
3) Banning specific ones would lead to a lot of suspect tests/quick bans which would only be fine if smogon wants to do all that work.

My personal bias against baton pass teams might be showing here but no one can deny that it would be a significant advantage for baton pass teams to keep dynamax while denying access to dynamax for pokemon with slightly higher BST or ubers classified pokemon.

Sure getting rid of dynamax entirely from ubers isn't perfect itself but I think it makes sense to either ban it completely or keep it in its entirely rather than halfheartedly addressing dynamax.

 

[Admiraal Aardappel]

Just wanna contribute some thoughts as someone who enjoys thinking about tiering and design philosophy, despite not actively playing Ubers or generally participating in these discussions, because this issue really intrigues me. I'll just lay out some (intentionally ordered) thoughts on the various options:

1. Ban Ubers dynamax: feels very icky to me due to the cross-cutting concerns with OU tiering. While suspect test outcomes affecting tiers outside the host tier is theoretically possible already, this implementation would potentially make it much more common to the point of affecting suspect outcomes, which I think should not be allowed to happen. The practical issues with documenting the metagame to me are secondary, but also major. There's just something uncomfortable about letting tiering affect a mon's objective strength in a metagame.

1a,b. By BST or Legendary status: not a fan of how arbitrary the limits for BST feels, and Legendary/Mythical status feels very much like playing Gamefreak here, considering they themselves did allow the mons to use the mechanic. The only point in favor of BST to me is its similarity to the initial Ubers banlist each generation (cover legends and such). Frankly, I think any completely rule-based ban other than by tiering is no good (and by tiering is itself no good either due to above), as it does not preserve teambuilder-clarity at all unless explicitly 'subtiered' separately, at which point I think it is completely inferior to the next option.

2. Dynamax banlist: I think being able to consider this option is a privilege unique to Ubers as the top-level tier. This is the only tier that can possibly implement a rule like this without risk of the dynamax-able pokemon seeing use in higher tiers despite its non-dynamax counterpart being low tier by usage (the same argument we use for not complex banning abilities), since there is no higher tier to begin with. Any mon on the dynamax-ban list would just be that, a pokemon that cannot dynamax, rather than two pokemon, one of which can and one of which can't. In line with this thinking, I believe that having a metagame that incorporates dynamax in a healthy way is something that only Ubers is capable of, and is worth pursuing as a goal, seeing as it is still the generational mechanic and could result in a very unique and fun metagame. However, again in order to preserve teambuilder-clarity, this measure would have to be implemented as a fundamental change, like creating a 'subtier'. Much like the initial Ubers banlist, I think this should be done by creating an initial banlist rather than playing tiering whack a mole.

3. Banning dynamax entirely: to be honest, this feels like the cleanest and most 'correct' choice. It completely avoids any problems with the other solutions and life can continue on as normal. I see no real reason not to do it: dynamax is definitely the problem, I believe both above options have some pitfalls, and we do not lose anything integral by banning it. To me, this decision resides entirely on whether the community wants to try for a dynamax-inclusive metagame, and possibly fail and decide it is still too broken after all, or just get it over with and focus on the tier without it. Again I think it is worth attempting, but we should keep in mind that the DLC are still coming as well.

 

[Gravelmouse]

Is there any particular reason why a BST ban can't specifically exclude Slaking and Regigigas? I don't think "670+ BST or has Power Construct, and does not have Truant or Slow Start" is particularly complex, given the obviously intuitive intent, and now that Kyu-B is Uber, it covers every corner case I can think of except for Hoopa-U if it's reintroduced. It does mean that Aura Break Zygarde can Dynamax while Power Construct Zygarde can't, but I don't see an issue there.

The list can be modified if there are ever any future 670+ BST mons that are supposed to be balanced by awful abilities, but since the last one was introduced 13 years ago, we're probably good unless the speculation about Galarian Regigigas pans out.

Yes, that would be extremely complex, it would be the most complex ban in smogon history by a long shot. And regardless of intent, it sets an inappropriate precedent that could lead to a very convoluted and complicated set of rules for the meta, where each pokemon is reviewed for its legality of dynamaxing or not.

 

[Rarycaris]

Yes, that would be extremely complex, it would be the most complex ban in smogon history by a long shot. And regardless of intent, it sets an inappropriate precedent that could lead to a very convoluted and complicated set of rules for the meta, where each pokemon is reviewed for its legality of dynamaxing or not.

Is it, though? Power Construct is mostly redundant there -- it's just to clear up ambiguity since Zygarde since it only situationally meets the requirement. The BST combined with lack of a detrimental ability is already a de facto condition of the initial OU banlist. It's certainly less complex than the arcane list of rules that were previously in place to preserve Baton Pass, before even those were deemed insufficient.

It would probably be better to have a custom Dynamax banlist and treat my proposal as a good starting guideline for what should be on it (at which point you could also use the Ubers banlist, provided that it's a starting heuristic rather than something to be carried forward rigorously), but the issue with complexity is that the rules might be too difficult to understand. From an ease of understanding perspective, banning Slaking and Regigigas from Dynamaxing in ubers causes more issues than it solves, because they are obviously corner case exceptions and nobody would question the reason for their exclusion.

That and, for all we know, this might be simplified somewhat because we don't know yet whether Regigigas and Slaking are even in the DLC yet. If not, or if Regigigas is but somehow turns out to be Uber tier anyway, the necessary conditions get a lot simpler.

 

[Ropalme1914]

I mean, if you guys want to save Regigigas and Slaking that much, I think it would be easier to just use Custom Ban List (which, imo, is the best one regardless of that) solution over the BST one at that point, but why are we so worried about two irrelevant Pokémon when you want to keep it simple? Shadow Tag affects Wynaut on OU, Arena Trap affected Trapinch, Baton Pass affected Shedinja, etc. It doesn't makes sense to make an exception just for two Pokémon that nobody is going to use.