On The Radar

[pubby]

Quickban Pheromosa, Aegislash, and Genesect. Preferably all at once.

Hoopa-U will see more play once Pheromosa and Genesect are gone since it won't have to worry about their fast U-turns. I don't think a Hoopa-U ban is worth discussing until then.

Landorus is stupidly good as always, but it might be a necessary evil to counteract the new fairies. I'd appreciate it banned and can see it eventually happening, but if it stays in OU it's not the end of the world.

Greninja is good but not broken at all.

Toxapex is never getting banned. It's not even as good as Skarmory.

Tapu Lele is interesting because regardless of whether or not it's banned in OU it's going to see play in Ubers. I don't think people realize how good this Pokemon is yet so I don't see it getting quickbanned, but a suspect test is likely in the future because this thing causes salt.

Tapu Koko is S tier but I don't see it getting banned. It's over-reliant on electric attacks and doesn't have the coverage to plow through most teams.

Magearna is S tier, but again I don't see it getting banned. Most of Tapu Koko's counters also counter Magearna.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Most of these under the radar stuff keep each other in check pretty well: Aegislash keeps Pheromosa in place, Pheromosa makes using Hoopa-U and Lando-I difficult; Hoopa-U preys on Aegislash; Genesect, Pheromosa makes Greninja reluctant to run Psychic coverage for Toxapex or spam Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, etc.

Many of these were considered broken in the past (or now, for Pheromosa) but now, when they are free in OU together, I think they balance out each other decently.

Also, stall teams, balance teams, offence teams are all visible at the top of Pokebank ladder now so the meta can't be that bad when all playstyles are viable

 

[Zukrad]

Disclaimer: Caveman english ahead - I apologize in advance

- Pheromosa: Why is this thing not quickbanned already? This thing is a faster Deoxys-N. Sure, is weaker than it and lacks E-Speed, but good god this thing is broken!! Amazing movepool, it has Beast Boost (which can boost its SpAtk to hit harder, or its Speed to being even harder to revenge kill), an amazing dual STAB, STAB U-Turn, and as a bonus point, has access to Rapid Spin and Quiver Dance. I really think it should be quickbanned.

- Aegislash: The only reason why Pheromosa is not as good as it could be, is thanks to this monster. 60/150/150/150/150/60 stats shouldn't be thinkable in OU. Alongside that, it has King Shield, which is not a 50/50 generator... is a 75/25 generator, in Aegi's favor of course. Ghost/Steel is one of the best, if not the best typing in the game. imo, if this is not quickbanned, it should be suspected asap. And if this goes, Pheromosa needs to go the day before!

- Hoopa-U: Hoopa-U has as many switchings as in gen 6, that means 0 switchings (other than Mimikyu). Celesteela can take a hit, but not only lacks of reliable recovery, but it needs to run 252/252 in special bulk and lefties to not get 2HKOed by Specs DP

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 171-202 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

One could say that the big amount of top tier fairies (aka the Tapus) is a big nerf to it, but first, none of the Tapus is a reliable switching to it

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Fini: 211-250 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tapu Koko: 306-361 (108.8 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele in Psychic Terrain: 227-267 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

From all the mentioned above, only Tapu Lele can switch in and revenge kill it, but not only Hoopa-U can switch out, it can also run Gunk Shot, which OHKOes all of them. Not only that, but all of these new fairies going around are a "nerf" to dark types and pursuit, and a nerf to pursuit is a buff to Hoopa-U. A suspect test is needed.

- Greninja: This frog is the equivalent to RBY Mew, but faster, stronger, and it can change typings. Even with the adition of Toxapex and Mantine, Greninja is a Pokémon that can run any combination of 4 moves and still be efficient with it. All of this while having a 122 base speed of course. Ninja may need to be suspect tested (Also, I have seen and used Greninja with Protean in prebank... how is that possible? I'm curious)

- Genesect: Genesect is an interesting mon. Rigth now, with Aegislash being used in 9/10 of all teams, and with Toxapex and Marowak-A being used a lot to check Pheromosa and friends, Genesect is not as awful to deal with. It gained quite a few checks, but it may be too much to handle once the bigger problems in OU are banned. Still, I can see Genesect being just right, at least for now. Maybe the power creep of this gen is going to be enough to make Genesect "balanced". I say we should wait and see before doing a suspect.

- Landorus-I: Lando is one of those mons that gets better once the completely broken stuff is banned and the meta starts taking shape. Sheer Force + Rock Polish/CM is really good. It gained a few checks, making it a bit easier to handle than in 6th gen. If I had to say who is more broken, between Lando-I and Genesect, rn I would probably pick Lando-I (I migth be underestimating Genesect tho, I haven't played against enough Genesects to get to a defenitive conclusion). Still, I would say we should wait and see with this one as well.

Other stuff mentioned (or not) in this thread:

- Ash Greninja: Since this is considered an alternative form to Greninja by the game, and, since is kinda like a mega evo, but harder to trigger, I see no problem to be tiered different than Greninja. With that being said. I can see this thing being OU. It lacks the main thing that makes Greninja broken, the ability to run any combination of 4 moves. The fact that it needs to be a normal Greninja before triggering its ability forces it to run double STAB, having only two slots for coverage. It also lacks of any of the Greninja Egg moves and lacks of the tutor moves that kicked Greninja out to ubers. The main issue with Ash-Greninja is its amazing speed, which, combined by the priority nerf and the amazing power it has, make Ash-Greninja really good. We should wait and see if Ash-Greninja is truly a problem for OU, but rn, I would say is not broken enough.

- Mega Kangaskhan: The nerf to parental bond is HUGE, and with all the power creep we got in this gen, plus the Sucker Punch nerf, Mega Mommy may seem nerfed enough to be OU. But, there is something tha Kangaskhan has that still makes it uber worthy for me, and is Power Up Punch. Even with the power nerf, 1.25 is still pretty amazing, being a slightly weaker Tough Claws that boosts everything, breaks sashes AND is a pseudo Serene Grace. But is PuP the thing that takes the cake for me. Having a 50 base power move that gives you a Swords Dance is a bit too much. If Gamefreak decided to eliminate the effect on the second hit, then Mega Kangaskhasn would be much easier to handle. I would say Mega Kangaskhan deserves a suspect test once the meta gets more stable to see if it can find a place in OU, but rigth now, I would say Mega Kangaskhan may be too much for OU.

- Darkrai: With the Dark Void nerf, I can see why so many people are jumping in the "unban the dark lord" wagon. 125 speed is not near as good as it once was, and, while 135 SpAtk is really good, is not something that OU can't handle. The nerf to priority helps Darkrai, and it still has an amazing movepool, with the likes of Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam and Nasty Plot. While this is true, I don't see offense having too much trouble dealing with this thing, and Darkrai needs to get to +6 to 2HKO Chansey, while Chansey can 3HKO it with Seismic Toss. I would love to see a suspect test once the meta gets more stable, and hopefully bring it back to OU.

- Other Stuff: I don't think most of these deserve a suspect this early in the meta. Even if they look really broken, I really think we should wait until the meta shapes before jumping to conclusions. Lets remember that in early ORAS, we all thought that Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria and Mega Slowbro deserved a suspect test, while Mega Sableye wasn't that big of a deal. Now, Mega Meta is just alrigth, Mega Bro is ok in some teams, and Mega Altaria, the once S-rank is now BL, and Mega Sableye got suspect tested twice, and finally got the boot in the latter. If I had to pick the best Pokémon from the sprites above, I would pick Tapu Koko, and I really don't think it is that big of an issue.

 

[D_what]

Many of these were considered broken in the past (or now, for Pheromosa) but now, when they are free in OU together, I think they balance out each other decently.

Also, stall teams, balance teams, offence teams are all visible at the top of Pokebank ladder now so the meta can't be that bad when all playstyles are viable

We've never abided by a "let broken check broken" mindset, and we're unlikely to start now - though it's worth mentioning what the end-goals are for different people when we're talking about banning/suspecting stuff.

Everyone has different ideas of what makes a meta balanced, but generally it's a mix between "any decent playstyle can function well (though by no means equally)", "There is a wide range of pokemon available for viable use in this tier", and "there isn't any overcentralising nonense cluttering up the place." Aegislash was a good example to consider for those last two; after it got the boot the psychic-floodgates broke open, which I think most people appreciated for diversity's sake. That's also where ^ that stuff breaks down: even if there are a large number of playstyles available in a given meta, and no team or Pokemon is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of them, they still cut down on the options you have for using a lot of other things.

The flip side of a very balanced meta nowadays is that it becomes impossible to check every threat with only 6 slots, because there are *so* many viable threats, as seen both in late XY and in late ORAS, and matchups are more often won or lost at team preview - IMO this is gonna happen more often as future gens up the amount of Pokemon that function. Such is progress I suppose.

Gotta say though. I'm a little skeptical of the claim that they balance each other out. X might check Y who counters Z, but if X and Y bring much more to the table other than those specific attributes, you're by no means balanced, because there's gonna be way more usage of X and Y and less of Z. Pheromosa is *rampant*, and Aegislash is way more than just a stopgap measure for... it, and you can't view them solely in terms of each other.

 

[Slimmer]

Current tier policy should disallow a metagame in which Greninja is banned and Ash-Greninja is OU; Ash-Greninja can't be used in a tier below the one in which Greninja sits in, so if Greninja will be banned in the future, Ash-Greninja will be as well.

 

[tigers jaw]

This comes down to your stance on the current criteria for broken, and is highly subjective, really. Personal stance is that is should not be banned, especially not quickbanned. Yes, the risk vs. reward for using this is staggering, yes, it has a multitude of viable sets all with their own merits on specific teams, and yes, it will adapt to almost any metagame trends that rise to alleviate its presence. With regards to "centralisation and reduction of viablility of X/Y/Z", forces of high centralisation are a necessity in games such as this, as are superglue pivots, and most importantly: diversity is not good for this game. The seemingly (by the Smogon zeitgeist) stifling effects that Aegislash has on a metagame can be interpreted (and should be interpreted so in a game such as this, especially in singles) as positives. Unless people are up for another round of OR/AS match-up issues, then either a hell of a lot of subsequent bans need to take place, or Aegislash needs to stay.

+

Grouping these together because they're very similar in both their stance in the metagame and what makes them stupid. The former is simply put: way too fucking good at what it does and way too fucking strong. A Pokemon that by the most basic of definitions in "competitive" games is broken, ie., it is going to kill all of your shit if you like it or not, and if it doesn't do that, it is going to make it such that another partner is going to kill all your shit. Same old as it was in early OR/AS, really. Far too many coverage options, far too much Speed, far too strong.

The latter is also the exact same as it was early OR/AS and X/Y. Sure, it got a couple more shaky checks, which are still destroyed by the appropriate coverage move, but it will still adapt and it will still be a huge threat to any archetype it faces. I hope the council aren't going to let this thing linger as it did for a whole year and a half last gen, when it was still too fucking strong.

Bringing up Lele before Hoopa-U, because I seriously think that even with Aegislash in the tier, this does Hoopa's job better than Hoopa does. Specs is monstrous, have quite literally zero viable switchins, Scarf is a good revenge killer that still does not want for power considering its decent Speed, for example: after one round of Rocks damage, Scarf Lando-T has a 69% chance to just drop to Psychic, that's just 25% less of a chance than ZardX has with a neutral Blitz, to add a little perspective. Furthermore, Psychic Terrain's nullification or priority makes what was the premier switch-in to strong Psychic-types, Mega Scizor, useless against it; Specs can either 2HKO with Psychic/HP Fire, and scarf cannot be revenge killed effectively by it. This thing hasn't even been toyed about with much with regards to sets like Twisted Spoon CM, which will crush any sort of defensive backbone you can think of. Most certainly something to ban keep an eye on.

How it really took so long for this to be banned in OR/AS will forever remain a mystery to me. Nothing with these sorts of offensive stats that gets all the good moves in the fucking game should be allowed in any reasonable meta. It is quite simple. Same as Lele, it will crush all defensive backbones once again, regardless of the new "checks" it gained.

This thing is lowkey broken, and I can only hope more people realise it. To adequately prepare for it either defensively or offensively is near-futile, as with defensive preparation you're winging it on what coverage it's packing, and the Speed is such an issue for offensive teams that shit you are basically relegated to revenge killing, and we all know how that argument went down in the Greninja suspect last gen. It does actually draw many parallels with Greninja, and its these parallels and a little more that make it broken. Far too many viable options, far too much Speed, too few reliable ways to revenge kill; furthermore it has other sets like CM, and I can see a stallbreaking set of Thunderbolt / Nature's Madness | Dazzling Gleam / Taunt / Roost being thing in the future. It should be apparent that Tapu Koko has way too many things up its sleeve, so keep an eye on this one, too.

Fuck Dugtrio fuck trapping. This is the exact opposite of what you want in this game, and what this is is a means with which to immediately remove/invalidate your opponent's win-condition, or your opponent's means with which to deal with your win-condition. Anything that removes player autonomy in games is a huge no-no for me, and this is exactly what this is. Do not make the same mistakes as last gen in passing Dugtrio off as easily-manageable and not a hugely-detrimental effect on the metagame, because that is what it is, and it is all it can be. Also watch out for Pursuit once the meta settles a little more, because that was ridiculous in OR/AS and fits into the "what you do not want" category.

===============

The council definitely needs to keep tabs on some of the more ridiculous Z-Moves out there, too. After watching PCM top ladder effortlessly with Z-Conversion Porygon-Z, it became apparent to me just how broken that is. I'd seriously propose a blanket ban of the "completely useless" moves such as Hold Hands, Celebrate, etc., or at least Conversion & Jirachi with Z-Move Happy Hour (which is frankly hilarious considering how bulky Jirachi is, the likely ban of Aegislash, and Jirachi's absurd coverage+skill factor). Also Waterium-Z Manaphy is just completely backwards: take everything that was holding back Manaphy for the last generation, even during the periods that it was nearly tearing at the seams, and then throw it in the bin and this is what you get with Waterium-Z Manaphy.

 

[Morsel]

For the love of god get rid of Aegislash and Pheromosa. The others are fine as far as I'm concerned; it's too early to tell what their impact will be, nor whether they are broken.


Aegislash literally forces you to sack something in order to take it on. It always, no matter the matchup, forces you into a position in which you have to scout its moveset by playing around your checks to it. It saps all your offensive momentum to play around king's shield and its moveset. It literally turns the game into a 50/50 where a misprediction causes you to lose your check. This wouldn't be too much of an issue but its insane typing allows it to come in on so many mons in the tier (buzzswole, pheromosa, medicham, gard, tapu lele, etc.), and everytime it comes in you lose ALL your momentum because you are FORCED to play around it. If you don't, you either lose a mon, or get swept by a SD set. A Pokemon like this is completely unhealthy for the tier because it literally turns a match into a dice role.

I don't even think I need to discuss Pheromosa. What makes it completely over the top is the fact that it can U-Turn out on its checks as they come in, meaning that its opponent is forced into a position in which they either lose a Pokemon or lose all momentum. Its coverage, STABs, and lack of true counters (literally has one counter) restrict fatter teams by forcing it to run Aegislash, and in general is hard to justify not using on any offensive build. Get rid of this thing.

 

[HotFuzzBall]

Finally, I'd like to propose a potential Toxapex suspect test on the basis of it having a number of traits which lead to it being too difficult to take down and forcing unnecessarily high amounts of preparation to not outright lose to it. It's defenses are stupidly high, it has access to an incredible ability in Regenerator that means it just doesn't die, and it has a large number of options that stop it being a complete sitting duck like is the case with Carbink. While I'm not basing my proposal entirely around the slightly outdated Portrait of an Uber, I personally think that it meets the criteria to be suspected on the defensive characteristic

Anyways, I agree with your points about Toxapex being that there's no reason not to run it due to its defensive presence and its ability to act as a fantastic glue mon to stall and balance. However, I disagree with the ban/suspect of Toxapex. The main reason Toxapex is so popular and amazing right now is the lack of Psychics in the tier due to threats like Aegislash, Hoopa-U, Genesect, Greninja and Pheromosa running around respectively. 3 of those mons in particular (Aegislash, Genesect, Pheromosa) makes it sooo difficult for the justification of using Psychic types on the team which ultimately check Toxapex. I think Toxapex is more annoying than over-centralizing (similarly to Alomomola in RU) since there will be ways to deal with this mon once the "Ubers" from OU get banned.

 

[Duck Chris]

This comes down to your stance on the current criteria for broken, and is highly subjective, really. Personal stance is that is should not be banned, especially not quickbanned. Yes, the risk vs. reward for using this is staggering, yes, it has a multitude of viable sets all with their own merits on specific teams, and yes, it will adapt to almost any metagame trends that rise to alleviate its presence. With regards to "centralisation and reduction of viablility of X/Y/Z", forces of high centralisation are a necessity in games such as this, as are superglue pivots, and most importantly: diversity is not good for this game. The seemingly (by the Smogon zeitgeist) stifling effects that Aegislash has on a metagame can be interpreted (and should be interpreted so in a game such as this, especially in singles) as positives. Unless people are up for another round of OR/AS match-up issues, then either a hell of a lot of subsequent bans need to take place, or Aegislash needs to stay.

Gonna hard disagree with you on this point. Diversity has always been something smogon has strived for and personally I believe it's very good for this game. Apart from things like Baton Pass chains, having a bad matchup against a team has always been something you just have to deal with when you build. If you go to the RMT archive, the strongest teams were built to either thrive in a specific metagame, and later fell out of favour, or found unique and interesting ways to deal with teams that they had a bad matchup against.

Stallbreakers will always give stall teams trouble, that's what makes stall impressive when you can pull it off. Aegislash however shuts down more pokemon than any other that I think has ever graced the OU tier. It forces every physical sweeper to run earthquake or face being walled to hell and back, and it escapes more measures of counterplay than we usually see. You can play Aegislash with no brain (see: most of my battles) and still get 1 or 2 kills with it.

I'd be interested to see what other pokemon people can think of that are or were as centralizing as Aegislash, even momentarily, before they got banned.

 

[ABR]

I suppose there's no better place for me to openly share my thoughts on these top tier pokemon.
QB = quickban; DNB = do not ban (at least for a long time).

Aegislash

- QB

There's not much to say about this mon that hasn't been said already. The fact that it has 60/150/150 defenses coupled with 150/150 offenses simultaneously in addition to arguably the best typing in the game + king's shield makes it absolutely unbearable. Now it isn't only that Aegi is "too good", but it restricts the metagame in a significant fashion by forcing so many moveslots and making half the tier unviable. Meta shifts exist but when a forever OU pokemon hovering top3 in usage (Lati@s) suddenly drops to 1% it goes to show the kind of influence Aegi has. An example of forced movesets would be like EQ Metagross/Pinsir (eq on every pokemon...) as well as something like darkium-z night slash Kartana. You also see pokemon like Jirachi and Starmie completely falling out of relevance with Aegi's tight grip on the meta. It really has to go ASAP so we can see how the meta develops after this, as a metagame with Aegi can never truly develop in a healthy way.

Genesect

- DNB

I initially was fearful of this pokemon and thought I'd be 100% pro ban, but I can say with certainty right now that it belongs in OU. I feel that a lot of people are exaggerating how difficult it is to switch into, as often it can't really afford to run something like Thunderbolt. It's still walled by like every fire type (douse drive is cool but obviously not a consistent pick), and pokemon like Toxapex, Mantine, Amoonguss, and Tapu Fini make for reasonable pivots. Another thing to consider is that Genesect cannot be a breaker and an amazing scarfer simultaneously. Even if scarf sets have good coverage, unboosted hits are not doing a lot at all to good walls. In terms of metagame development, and I know a lot of people may not see this now, but Genesect keeps the tier together in a way that it would probably slowly fall apart without it. A major issue we saw in ORAS was that the tier became sort of dependent on having counters to every pokemon, and this sort of sucked out the viability of creative options. Genesect is one of the most versatile pokemon, but not in an overbearing sense - it just keeps people on their toes and prevents very counter-heavy styles. If we remove Genesect, then in a bulkier metagame Hoopa becomes overbearing or we have the same issue of late ORAS with Sableye + Dugtrio teams becoming broken. If we keep Genesect, the meta will probably not be counter-heavy, but instead be continuously evolving in a fresh and healthy way.

Greninja

- DNB

The way Greninja feels right now is way more comparable to its role in XY rather than how it was in ORAS. While it may still have Gunk Shot, there's a lot more counterplay right now than there was in ORAS. SM gave us the options of Celesteela, Mantine, Magearna, Toxapex, and a more fast paced meta overall. With new switchins in the tier, as well as faster pokemon like Tapu Koko, Greninja really isn't overwhelming at all. It's often pressed to run something like hp elec or extrasensory, and even then there's a scarf Genesect in the back just waiting to get momentum on you. As long as we don't ban Genesect and Hoopa I don't see Greninja ever being an issue in SM.

Hoopa-U

- DNB

Given the current state of the metagame, this thing just isn't a huge threat. Everything is pretty offensive and we have an influx of fairies (especially Magearna) as well, so I don't really see how anyone could label this as a defining offensive pokemon. Yea it's a scary breaker in theory but it still is forced out by uturners / anything faster and physical, and it has the same old pursuit weakness that existed in ORAS.

Landorus

- Undecided / Needs more time

This is one of the pokemon I'm admittedly less certain about. I think we really need to see how the metagame evolves after an Aegislash ban to determine how broken it really is. At the moment Lando should generally be running rock slide for Mantine/Torn/Zard and others, and it doesn't really have to run knock off because there's no Psychics (thanks Aegislash) and not really much stall. With Aegislash banned, Lando might have to drop some of its coverage options or be paired with Pursuit for Slowking or Latios or whatever comes up to beat it. At the moment we have decent switchins like Celesteela and overall outpressuring, but it's hard to determine if this dynamic is healthy. Landorus can really beat any single counter with the right coverage move (bar unviable Cresselia), but at the same time it can't run everything at once and it can be revenged by common offensive pokemon. I see a potential for this pokemon being broken in the same way it was in past gens, but it certainly needs more time.

Pheromosa

- QB (post-Aegi) (speculation)

Pheromosa is a really interesting pokemon. It has insane speed, offensive stats, and coverage, but its moves are pretty much set in stone. It doesn't really have coverage besides fighting/bug/poison/ice, yet this still hits like 95% of the meta. The only walls/pivots right now are pretty much Aegislash, Toxapex, and Mantine. Something like Mantine is worn down really fast by Uturn, and offense is shredded apart. Almost every single offensive pokemon is outsped by it and takes like 90% min, so you're really left with priority/scarfers to deal with it. Priority doesn't even really OHKO, like it's frail but its not that frail (see: Kartana spdef), and scarfers arent exactly the best options. Almost all scarfers are straight up OHKO'd by Pheromosa and thus can't safely switch in, but having to revenge a pokemon like this isn't even that bad. Where the real issue comes in is Beast Boost pushing this thing over the edge. It would be just fine if we could use scarfers or something to outspeed it reliably, but if you try to sac something then it just gets +1 speed and outspeeds your scarfer anyways. I don't believe that Pheromosa is broken in an Aegislash meta, as it's a full counter and obviously used a lot, but the second Aegi goes this thing probably needs to as well. Offense seriously does not have enough options, and bulkier teams only have a couple switchins that just get uturned on so counterplay is kind of scarce. That being said, we obviously can't ban it now. I suppose once Aegi leaves we can give it a bit of time, but I and a lot of other people I know can see the dangerous potential of this thing running around in an Aegi-less meta.

Cheers to a generation of flawless tiering ahead of us!

 

[Take Azelfie]

I can agree with the voices of many others that we can't exactly get a feel for the meta untill Aegislash and Pheromosa are banned. Because these two completely change how people build teams like Aegislash forces almost every team to have a special nuke like in Hoopa or Landorus or how Pheromosa makes it so you must prepare for it defensively, even on offensive teams (see Toxapex) so at the moment I really think we shouldn't consider dealing with anything else until we see the after effects of these bans. In perspective everything else seems kind of balanced or slightly overpowered in comparison to Aegislash and Pheromosa who are completely busted. I'll probably come back and voice more opinions later on after the ban but the only thing I'm going to advocate for is a Pheromosa and Aegislash QB.

 

[Ren Yukine]

Imo they do all balance each other out a bit. Aegislash seeming to be the bigger threat but also a check for Pheromosa. I'm gonna go out on a limb though and say why not test banning kings shield on aegislash and seeing where things go from there. It's clearly an op attack but even without it aegislash can still do a few things and I think it might balance it out a bit.

 

[Force Majeure]

Thanks for this; I'm glad that there's a place to talk about stuff like this. Btw I think this gen is starting off better than any new meta since DPP, probably because the transition between the ORAS meta has been as smooth as vermouth in a glass of gin.

Pherimosa is the biggest obvious problem Mon right now; were it slightly less speedy it wouldn't be as much of a problem. As it is, you have a terrifying array of options. Scarfed sets are particularly annoying from my perspective as I've been building mostly weather teams; scarfed Pherimosa outspeeds Kingdra in the rain, Slush Rushers, and even Excadrill in sand iirc. I know this isn't the biggest problem with Pherimosa (scarf is one of its worst sets otherwise) but it's just another annoying thing about it. I'd argue that Pherimosa is more dangerous in this meta than Deoxys-N would be because it has a better typing (offensively and "defensively"), a horrifyingly powerful STAB in HJK that doesn't lower stats (unlike psycho boost), pivoting ability, and a similar coverage move pool. No hazards but :|

Aegislash is an old friend for most of us; it's been in OU a couple of times and it's a good gauge of power creep between generations (as is genesect; I'll get to that in a minute). I think the problems with Aegislash are the same as in its initial suspect and retest in gen 6. This time, let's all think about what a 50/50 is before we post in the suspect thread for Aegislash. I'm for it being banned as things are right now, but it's not as overcentralizing as it was in XY/ORAS.

It's really difficult to tell how much of a problem Greninja and Landorus-I will be; intuitively i find Lando much more difficult to deal with. Hoopa-U is in the same boat; I feel like it will still be too much for OU but not right now (the stealth dark buff and comparative lack of Pursuit are good for it).

Genesect is a cool mon; I've been waiting for it to become usable in OU (as in, not broken) for a while now. Out of all the new gen drops from Ubers, I think genesect has the best shot at staying here although it's still monstrously powerful and will need to be looked at pretty hard after more of its sets come out from Pherimosa's shadow.

I'm pretty open about a need to reexamine the shadow tag ban but that's down the line. It may very well be that the addition of terrains (especially misty/grass) makes Wobb actually broken as a trapper on offense teams but as the meta sits right now the inclusion of Wobb would be welcome. The trapping problem was never Wobb + Offense, it was Gothitelle + Stall. It's down the line, though, and not super pressing.

If the Tapus are to be looked at (again, down the line) will it be by banning the Mon itself or would it be like drizzle/drought bans? I suppose this ultimately depends on how good the terrains end up being as the meta settles but it's worth thinking about.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

If the Tapus are to be looked at (again, down the line) will it be by banning the Mon itself or would it be like drizzle/drought bans? I suppose this ultimately depends on how good the terrains end up being as the meta settles but it's worth thinking about.

Telepathy is currently unreleased on all of the tapus so they would be forced to ban the pokemon itself.

 

[Giagantic]

Okay, haven't posted in ages but feel compelled to right now as I am actually interested in the current meta unlike Late Oras.

(Suspect Worthy / Quick Ban Worthy / Perfectly Fine At The Moment!)

First let's get to the things that need to go 100% (hurhur)...

Megazord!, uh, Zygarde 100% / Complete or more precisely banning the ability "Power Construct" that allows it to transform into the stupidly bulky 100% state once at 50% hp or lower. I really do not think there is any reason to suspect this, just Quick Ban it. Thousand Arrows, Extreme Speed, Coil, Dragon Dance, Extreme bulk, it is an utter terror that manhandles even 4x effective ice moves, just no, get it out! Power Construct is Gone so ignore this, still leaving Megazord here for remembrance sake.

Quick Ban Aegislash it is still as overcentralizing and powerful as it was last generation and seeing as it has been suspected several times yet still remains so overbearing I see no reason to go through the normal process of suspecting it. The gist is, if you do not use Aegislash your team is probably weaker then it would have been if it had it, that is how great it is.

-
Potential Suspect Worthy Pokemon

Greninja Battle Bonds is just bleh it is still Protean that makes Greninja a utter nightmare due to gaining stab on any move it so chooses and having a great movepool to abuse it. Going into the future I see it being suspected due to this combination of versatility and coverage on top of its great speed that lets it easily hit pretty much anything on your team supereffectively.

Genesect Similar to Greninja the thing that makes Genesect so potent is its versatility and in Gene's favour power both specially and physically letting it run a wide variety of equally as powerful sets ranging from Expect Belt, Band, Scarf, etc... At the moment it isn't all that bad but as time goes on and an actual meta forms outside of the chaos of now I see it becoming a powerful and ultimately broken existence.

Pheromosa I am one of the few that do not see it as some sort of threat comparable to Aegislash or Zygarde 100% as it has terrible defenses but more importantly lay in its terrible movepool that lacks the tools to truly be Quick Ban Worthy. There are a vast number of checks that handle it and several counters as well, things like Toxapex, Mantine, Alola Marowak, pretty much any ghost for that matter, Gyarados, BuzzSWOLE, Aquanid, etc etc I could honestly go on and on for potential checks. This all being said I do think suspecting is something that should eventually be done but I would prefer to wait a while until people have collectively as a whole have sussed out ways of dealing with it as in the current state everyone is still in the honeymoon period of Sun and Moon and rash decisions could hurt the meta and a pokemon that may very well be overrated (imo). I would just like to point to the past with pokemon like Mega-Metagross, Mega-Altaria, Talonflame(less so but still also rip smogonbird), Mega-Pinsir, Zards both X and Y , etc... many pokemon come out extremely strong at release but die off in popularity once the meta has adapted to it fully not just a few vocal people like me.

Dugtrio I am just gonna be honest I am somewhat dubious about this yet see the merits of suspecting it especially when it was already percieved as a problem in Oras with Arena Trap despite being 20 physical weaker then. Now that it has 100 Attack on top of the elements that made it so annoying last gen I personally think that suspecting it and maybe even banning Arena trap would be something that should be done. It just impedes competitive play so well and its biggest counterargument against suspect / ban was its lackluster power but this has been patched up somewhat this gen.

-
Pokemon that May be suspect worthy far into the metagame! (Not anytime in the relative near future)

Landorus-Incarnate / Toxapex / Celesteela / Mega-Mawile (if it is added back by Game Freak)

-
Perfectly Fine, Stop Overreacting Pokemon!

ALL OF THE TAPU's , yes I personally have zero issues with any of the Tapu's and think they are a breath of fresh air to the metagame due to their Terrain invoking abilities and think none of them are even close to suspect worthy much less ban worthy. Tapu Bulu ultimately has a strong but easily wallable offensive typing (grass) and has clearly defined weaknesses that even things that it should wall can bring if they so deem it (Landorus-t and sludge bomb), Tapu Lele isn't a problem in my opinion, Tapu Koko has terrible movepool issues and plenty of checks that can deny it example being Marowak (alola), Amoonguss/Bulu/etc all deal with it if it lacks brave bird but then you know it is running a physical set which makes it easier to handle, Heatran, and Excadrill and so on... Tapu fini is just mediocre as everyone knows...

 

[D_what]

why not test banning kings shield on aegislash and seeing where things go from there. It's clearly an op attack but even without it aegislash can still do a few things and I think it might balance it out a bit.

Given that Aegis has already been suspected (and banned...) twice in the span of a single gen, I feel it might be worth getting some sort of official response on this that can be copy/pasted later - unless there is already in which case sorry no idea where to look for it :o FB, maybe.

Bluntly; to do so would be doing it NOT because King's Shield is inherently broken (although I do think it's a really dumb move that needs a nerf on the game dev side) but because we're doing it to make Aegislash fight with one of its hands tied. It's a *nerf*, as opposed to an actual judgment call on banworthiness. (That's not to say we couldn't suspect test the move, but it'd be pretty transparent about what the real motivations would be. We want to keep Aegislash around but we know it's too strong as it is.)

There's issues with bringing up precedent. On the one hand, we banned Greninja, not Protean, since Protean isn't a problem on Kecleon (though it's still a dumb ability). So we don't ban Kings Shield because it isn't a serious problem on Smeargle. But then you have the Shadow Tag ban, or the complex ban on Baton Pass, which was in the spirit of a nerf. So I'm ignoring precedent, even if there's a difference in the ban being on a move rather than something else.

Aegislash is an entire package. It's an awesome Pokemon on pretty much all fronts. 150/150 offenses, stellar typing, funky defenses (not gonna say 60/150/150 because it's not always true, though bolstered by Kings Shield) a flexible movepool and an absurd amount of value brought to any given team. King's shield is part of the problem, but not the whole of it - yeah, it might not be banworthy without it, but maybe Shaymin-S wouldn't be without Seed Flare. It's an awkward double standard.

To be clear though. I still think Kings shield is still a really dumb move. *Especially* when it now punishes attacks that can't even hit it normally. Jesus, what I'd give to get into the Game freak offices for a couple of months! :/



EDIT: Out of curiosity, are there any quantifiable differences in the Pokemon that Dugtrio can now take out all of the time that it definitely couldn't before the buff? turning 2HKOs into 1HKOs, etcetera. If the +20 atk translates directly into "and now 'trio can trap this, and this, and this" to the point that the number (or quality) of things trapped become a noticeable issue, then we've a repeat of the Shadow Tag ban on our hands.

 

[PK Gaming]

Aegislash should be Quick Banned. I resent all assertions that this Pokemon is somehow "balanced" or a "necessary evil" in the current metagame. Aegislash absolutely adds to the madness that is current Gen VII OU. With its ability to effortlessly switch into most of the metagame and fire off its incredibly difficult to shrug off Shadow Balls, coupled with its easy bake oven™ level option of dealing with checks via King's Shield, Aegislash is undoubtedly one of the most obnoxious Pokemon in the tier. The reality is that there isn't a consistent way to deal with this thing outside of packing niche mons like Mandibuzz (who get wrecked by Toxic anyway) and consistently checking it (beyond...Bisharp?) is obviously impossible. In any case, leaving this Pokemon in OU is a complete waste of time. The sooner we ban it (and it will undeniably get banned), the sooner the metagame will start to stabilize.

My beautiful, sweet, dearest, precious Pheromosa should be Quick Banned. I didn't want it to be this way, but alas, that auspicious stat spread, movepool and ability make it too difficult of a Pokemon to deal with. Hell, it's a major threat in the current metagame even with Aegislash legal. That should tell you something.

Genesect should be banned. It's broken for the same reason it was broken in gen VI and the same reason it was broken in Gen V. Download + U-turn + Coverage = ridiculous. Genesect is easily one of the most braindead, low risk Pokemon in the format, with extreme power and versatility to back it up. It can check nearly everything, run a train on teams if it picks up that SpA boost in the lategame, and is impossible to "counter" for obvious reasons. Not to mention the various other sets that people aren't even using are extremely good as well. This thing simply cannot be allowed exist in the current metagame, sad as that might be, because we all know that Genesect is one of the coolest goddamn Pokemon in the franchise.

The phrase Necessary Evil should also be Quick Banned. It's a lazy, thought-terminating defense for suspects and it really has no place in this thread.

Landorus-I, Greninja and Tapu Koko are incredibly powerful atm (and will likely catch a ban down the line) but I think we should wait and see for now.

 

[GlassVeins]

I think that all of the listed pokemon should be banned, cause they're all pretty absurd imo. I 'd go in this order:
Phermosa, because it's pivot deoxys, (definitely)
Aegislash, the meta-centralizer, because of it's myriad good sets. ((definitely)
Genesect, because it has awesome coverage on top of u-turn, (maybe)
Landorous, for wrecking balanced teams and offensive teams with a rp (definitely)
Hoopa, because it (still) kills stall (definitely)
Greninja, cause of it's insane versatility and offence killing. (probably)
I'd like to say more, but you guys covered it and I have other things to do.

 

[Albacore]

I made a post a few pages back explaining why I think Aegi should be one of the first things to be suspected. But I just realised I completely forgot to explain why I think both of the bugs should be suspected before it.

(kepe in mind in this post, the word "suspect" is interchangeable with "quickban" for all intents and purposes)


Okay, so the first reason is that I think it's possible (albeit very unlikely) that Aegislash will become balanced as people find more and more good ways to deal with it. Right now, people are really not prepared to handle it, but we might see people starting to use more stuff like Gliscor and Mandibuzz as balanced teams naturally become more viable. It might end up like XY Aegi, which was only banned by a very slim margin, and which the common consensus on was that it wan't techncially broken, just unhealthy. Yes, you can point to the ORAS unban which resulted in a much larger anti-unban vote than the XY pro-ban vote, but hey, that's what happens when you just throw Aegislash in a metagame that's absolutely not prepared to handle it.

Once again, this seems very unlikely to me, and Aegislash seems to be one of the very rare pokemon which actually gets better as opposed to worse as the power creep increases, but it's still a possibility worth entertaining. It's very hard to believe that people will suddenly "find" Pherosoma and Genesect checks and that these two will suddenly be fine when an incredibly common, incredibly viable one already exists. Essentially, even though Aegi warps the metagame around it, it's not overwhelming in said metagame (again, as proven by XY), unlike Pherosoma and Gene which are probably too much for any possible configuration of the OU tier given the availible means to keep them in check.


The second is just that I'd rather avoid seeing too many needless bad anti-ban arguments if I can. If Phero and Gene are allowed when Aegislash gets suspected, a lot of people will just go "oh you can't ban Aegi or Pherosoma will be broken!" Granted, some of them will say that about Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, w/e, but still, banning one of the ony checks to one of the most overpowered mons in the tier means you're not just deciding the fate of one Pokemon by voting to ban Aegislash, you're deciding the fate of two. If you vote to ban Aegi, you're almost certainly also voting to ban Pherosoma. Suspecting Pherosoma earlier would give the Aegislash suspect more independence, since banning it won't make Aegislash any more broken or balanced (it will make it slightly less necessary, but in no way will dimish what makes it so good in the first place).

Of course, it goes the other way too: if Pherosoma gets suspected first and, by some crazy miracle, isn't banned, then Aegi absolutely needs to stay, so a vote against the Phero ban is also a vote against the Aegi ban. But this Phero's ban is far less likely to affect Aegi's than the other way round because I'm pretty sure that, at this point (and correct me if I'm worng), both are VERY likely to be banned. Why does this matter? Well, for the sake of argument, let's say that if Aegislash gets banned, it would directly cause Pheromosa to get banned, and if Pheromosa doesn't get banned, Aegi will have to stay. Let's also give them a 90% chance of being banned if they are suspected firsy. So if Pheromosa is suspected first, it has a 10% chance of not being banned, which would lead to Aegislash being guaranteed to stay. On the other hand, if Aegislash is suspected first, it has a 90% chance to cause Pheromosa to be banned. So, as you can see, it's far more likely for Aegislash's suspect will have a effect on Pherosoma's than the other way round.

You've also got to consider that Phero is (once again, correct me if I'm wrong) more likely to be banned than Aegi, since it's more traditionally broken, and it's much easier to make the argument that Aegi is actually good for the tier (see: tigers jaw's post). This makes Aegi's suspect more important for people to be well-informed about and experience in the right conditions. Which, in return, makes it more important for the Aegi suspect to be cleared of any outside elements and distractions which may affect it, espeically since its ban will probably impact the metagame more than a Pherosoma ban.

I'm not sure all of this applies to Genesect too, which is why I'm not certain it should be suspected before Aegi, but I have a hunch it does at least to some extent.


btw if I'm completely wrong about this and Phero gets suspected first, survives the suspect, Aegi gets banned, and then Phero gets banned as a result, I vow to use Budew on every single one of my OU teams for the rest of the gen.

 

[bludz]

Ok so I've read a few posts asking for Darkrai and some other mons to be suspect dropped down.

I'm gonna ask that nobody else do this from now on. It makes absolutely zero sense at this point in the metagame where there is so much turmoil. The focus right now is on removing possible broken factors, and the concept of introducing new (also possibly broken) ones into the fold isn't going to help the metagame settle; it will just slow down the process.

To be clear, I'll be deleting future posts which contain thoughts on dropping stuff down. Again, this is not the time for that discussion.

As for the current slate of discussion:

While you have a point about Aegi's effect on Pheromosa and not the other way around so much, I still disagree with your premise, Albacore. We should be taking a look at the pokemon which influence the metagame in the least healthy way possible first. I see no reason to suspect a mon that's potentially less unhealthy (Phero) just to give one that is probably more unhealthy (Aegi) "a chance." We all know what Aegislash does and this hasn't changed even with the power creep from this gen. If that's a problem now, moreso than our not-so-beloved Deoxys clone, then it should be looked at first. Now if you think that Phero is actually a bigger problem than Aegi then that's another story. If it's not clear, I think Aegislash is the #1 most stupid pokemon in the metagame right now. I get that it's a nice glue for teams, but it's also keeping a bunch of other broken stuff in check and we need that to come to light (Kartana is something that I think we may be taking a look at pretty far down the line, but right now is overshadowed by many other mons).

I don't have an extremely strong opinion on most of the other mons, though I think Landorus is better than Greninja so far and is probably gonna end up needing to go as well. I think the best thing we can do is remove both Aegislash and Pheromosa, and then we can go forward with Genesect / the rest and re-evaluate from there.

 

[Maid-]

Aegislash+Pheromosa suspect should happen together imo. (With both preferably being quickbanned)

Genesect doesn't seem very broken right now, although with aegislash / pheromosa gone it may become overwhelming. The jury's still out on this one.

Beyond that, the only mons I think are worth considering for a suspect this early are landorus-I and duggy. Landorus has the power to completely run through teams whereas something like greninja really struggles with a LOT of defensive mons due to only being able to carry 4 moveslots. I still think lando may fit into a balanced metagame, but dugtrio will slowly become overwhelming as it builds off the momentum it gained in ORAS. It will see prominent use and, I feel, overly centralizes a metagame centered around stealth rocks so that levitating mons and grounded ghost types will see WAY more play than they normally would because of the presence of dugtrio.

 

[njnp]

I honestly don't get why aegislash has not been quick banned of all things. There wasn't even any reason for it to return to ou and it is showing them in this metagame. It was a bitch in oras suspect test as it is now.

Phermosa may not need to be quickbanned there are measures to it but still would stricken team builds to an unhealthy extent and needs to go with aegi.

Greninja is perfectly fine. I am enjoying it in this meta not only playing with it but against it. See no reason for it to be removed atm but we will see..

Lando I is some disgusting shit and highly suspect worthy like in oras ou. It got new measures in the steel flying ub and forcing it to run rs or mantine beats it. This still doesn't change the fact of what it can do from being a stall-balance breaker/sweeper (CM/RP) and a very nice stealth rocker depending on what your team needs.

Hoopa should not be on this list..it is perfectly fine in this meta not borked at all. I was against a ban in gen 6 and for sure am against one this time around. Genesect pressuing it out constantly and with all these new fairies making dark spam less viable. I certainly expect to not see hoopa go away anytime soon.

What should be under the radar cept hoopa is fucking dugtrio and z moves.

Those are more uncompetitve then hoopa for sure. Dugtrio got a very nice boost in sumo with its bump in attack and is still as much as a nuisance as he was in oras hell you can even get away with running scarf dugtrio for tapu koko and phermosa (aeriel ace it).

Z moves like rd letting manaphy beat what was its best counter faster mons/offense cause of the nasty plus speed it receives. Letting heatrans remove bulky water types. Letting Torn T remove rotoms w. Letting Sand Rush Excadrill ohko rotoms after rocks. There is a list of mons that get that kill they need and proceed with sweep or break the teams core enough to grant an easier path to victory. Great example of that is magnera shift gear set. You put your opp in a very tough position because if this thing gets a kill and gets it's its spa boost its hard to stop it with its great bulk...so when generally a weaken mon should live its hits like a lando i and lando t it just clicks its z move blows that mon back and proceeds to sweep. I have been fucked over by z moves as much as I have been aegislash. Certainly has not been a thing I have enjoyed being added to the competitive community.

Anyway, said what I had to say did this on my phone so sry for any grammar errors...

GL Council

 

[baddummy]

Hi, so there are 4 pokemon that I'd like to comment on:

1) Aegislash

Ok so Aegislash is pretty much the definition of overcentralising. It runs the tier, making certain pokemon completely unviable, and making pokemon that can take it on 1v1 much more valuable than they would otherwise be. Crucially, it does this in a very unhealthy way. It comes in on a lot of threats, and gets so much off of 1 turn, it's able to fire off a STAB that is very difficult to resist off of great offensives, and if anything can resist it, then it has the coverage to beat that too. Any checks/counters it can overcome by running a particular set. Really, there is no limit when it comes to Aegislash, as any adaptations that are made in the meta towards it, can be overcome with a different set. The fact that Aegislash comes in so easily due to having the best typing in the game, and then has so much potential while it is, completely tilts any idea of skill whatsoever. And then, I won't dwell on this, but of course, there are the game deciding 50/50s where skill is removed as a factor altogether. Just from the perspective of somebody who has to build for the new meta, almost every team becomes obsessed with preparing for this thing, and rather than whether you should use it or not, the decision is more what set to use. This thing just brings so much to the table in 1 slot, is very simple to use, governs the tier, and makes winning with it significantly easier than playing against it. My personal opinion is that it sucks the skill and fun out of the meta.
I really want this thing gone fast, it's very clear to me that it has no place in a healthy, skilful, or diverse meta. We could suspect it, but I'd much prefer the council to quickban it.

2) Pheromosa

This pokemon is 100% broken. It might not have the ability to completely change up its sets, but with the almost perfect coverage in HJK/UTurn/IceBeam/PoisonJab, there are exactly two things in the tier that are a response to it - Aegislash and Toxapex. Notice how I only describe them as a "response", rather than stopping it. That's because even if you can respond to it, it simply U-turns out, and maintains momentum for the Pheromosa user without any effort on their part at all. After that, something that beats those 2 defensive checks such Landorus can come in, and continue to apply huge pressure, so you'll often see these 2 on the same team. This is an absolutely crazy wincon, possessing both unbelievable speed, and amazing power. It revenges pretty much everything, makes the game completely focussed around itself and its aforementioned checks, and keeps the Pheromosa user in the driver's seat of the match. If you do happen to lose your response (there are only really 2 reliable ones to pick from), or make the mistake of not bringing one in the first place, it will end the game in a flash. It's an offensive powerhouse that maintains momentum for the user, and that's in a metagame with Aegislash, a highly splashable and broken counter to it.
This is too powerful for OU already, and without Aegi, it will break the tier. Please quickban it along with Aegislash so we can start fixing the metagame.

3) Landorus

Back in ORAS, I voted to not ban this thing. Really, that was a mistake, it definitely deserved to go. Now, it's less clear. This undoubtably has a strong influence on the tier, but a lot of that is due to external factors. For instance, Aegislash means that any pokemon which can OHKO it without having to risk KS is a shoo in for offensive teams. Plus, with Pheromosa pairing as well with it as it does, it's getting lots of opportunities to come in as a result of this, where it might not be so much at the forefront of the match otherwise. My gut reaction when I saw Landorus sweeping through teams with rock polish is that it was still too strong for the tier. However, there are definitely more responses to this set than there were before. Mantine and Celesteela are new and viable checks, and shut down the previous go-to RP set of EarthPower/SludgeWave/HpIce. This means that it has to pick very carefully what moves it wants to run, it might be able to sweep through unprepared teams easily, but it won't sweep through prepared teams, and being "prepared" is a much less arduous process than it was before. Yes, it can run different coverage moves and lures, but then this means it can't get past other stuff that it would have been able to before.
Landorus is definitely a strong wincon, a powerful breaker, and can lure checks you think might be able to beat it by running slightly unusual coverage moves. However, I feel the number of responses a player has for it have increased, and I would like to see it in action in a metagame that isn't warped by Aegi and Pheromosa. I think this definitely has the potential to be banworthy, but I would like more information. Overall, I am unsure about whether Landorus is totally healthy or not.

4) Hoopa-U

In the OP, 5 of the pokemon mentioned are inarguably top tier threats in the current metagame. There are six pokemon in total highlighted as suspect worthy, but I can only call this pokemon the odd one out. Back in ORAS, of all the suspects that resulted in a ban, this result was the closest, only achieving a 61% ban vote. As it turns out, the Sablenite ban wrapped the tier up pretty neatly and in hindsight there were good reasons for the Hoopa-U ban. However, let's consider exactly what those reasons were. Hoopa-U forced teams to be more offensive, it made the tier much faster than it would otherwise be, and it applied a large amount of pressure. By contrast, the tier is already very fast and offensive, so Hoopa-U absolutely does not warp the tier now in the same way that it did back then. Furthermore, it's a physically frail, slower pokemon that's weak to U-turn, in a metagame where fast U-turns are abundant. With the Dugtrio buff, physical trapping is also stronger than it was before, so that's another disadvantage to using it. While it is true that it comes in on something like Toxapex and gets a kill, this could very easily be described as a healthy disadvantage to using Toxapex in the first place, being a pokemon that gives out free turns and doesn't apply offensive pressure by its very nature.
I definitely feel that responses to this happen naturally in the teambuilding process, and that it doesn't alter the tier at all, really. It's easily the least dominant pokemon mentioned in the OP, and I feel it's way too soon to even consider suspecting it, if we even do so this gen at all. Do not ban.

I haven't really decided on Genesect and Greninja yet. They're definitely strong, but they've gained some new checks. It's really hard to tell how they will be without Pheromosa and Aegislash. I feel like if I did type up something on Genesect, I'd just be saying it's a good pivot with nice coverage options rather than making a strong pro-ban or anti-ban argument. As for Greninja, there's no question it is not as good as it was, it is slower comparatively, and it has more checks. I'd really just be speculating at this point if I tried to come up with potential sets to prove it's too powerful or not.

Here's a summary of what I think should happen as per regards to suspects. I'd like to see Aegi and Pheromosa banned as soon as possible. They're not even worth wasting suspect time on, just quickban them so we can move on. After that, drop Hoopa-U from this list altogether, forget about suspecting it for the time being, it's simply not dominant enough. Finally, we can look at Landorus, Genesect, and Greninja on a case-by-case basis as the metagame settles, and come to a sensible conclusion for each one.

 

[volx757]

I honestly don't get why aegislash has not been quick banned of all things. There wasn't even any reason for it to return to ou and it is showing them in this metagame. It was a bitch in oras suspect test as it is now.

Phermosa may not need to be quickbanned there are measures to it but still would stricken team builds to an unhealthy extent and needs to go with aegi.

Greninja is perfectly fine. I am enjoying it in this meta not only playing with it but against it. See no reason for it to be removed atm but we will see..

Lando I is some disgusting shit and highly suspect worthy like in oras ou. It got new measures in the steel flying ub and forcing it to run rs or mantine beats it. This still doesn't change the fact of what it can from being a stall-balance breaker/sweeper (CM/RP) and a very nice stealth rocker depending on what your team needs.

Hoopa should not be on this list..it is perfectly fine in this meta not borked at all. I was against a ban in gen 6 and for sure am against one this time around. Genesect pressuing it out constantly and with all these new fairies making dark spam less viable. I certainly expect to not see hoopa go away anytime soon.

What should be under the radar cept hoopa is fucking dugtrio and z moves.

Those are more uncompetitve then hoopa for sure. Dugtrio got a very nice boost in sumo with its bump in attack and is still as nuch as a nuisance as he was in oras hell you can even get away with running scarf dugtrio for tapu koko and phermosa (aeriel ace it).

Z moves like rd letting manaphy beat what was its vest counter faster mons/offense cause of the nasty plus speed it receives. Letting heatrans remove bulky water types. Letting Torn T remove rotoms w. Letting Excadrill ohko rotoms after rocks. There is a list of mons that get that kill they need and proceed with sweep or break the teams core enough to grant an easier path to victory. Great example of that is magnera shift gear set. You put your opp in a very tough position because if this thing gets a kill and gets it's its spa boost its hard to stop it with its great bulk...so when generally a weaken mon should live its hits like a lando i and lando t it just clicks its z move blows that mon back and proceeds to sweep. I have been fucked over by z moves as much as I have been aegislash. Certainly has not been a thing I have enjoyed being added to the competitive community.

Anyway, said what I had to say did this on my phone so sry for any grammar errors...

GL Council

It seems like the true quickban round hasn't happened yet, and aegi will be a part of that group, as removing it now while leaving phero and other high powered mons in the tier would just unbalance the meta even more (see: everyone referring to aegi as glue).

Agree that Ninja is fine atm, though that could change. Hoopa, while far from being suspect #1, should absolutely get suspected again (after the more pressing bans). Nothing's really changed for it, still unpredictable and powerful as ever, easy to use, with one of the most spammable attacks in the game coming off a huge attacking stat. Since genesect is probly gonna get banned, you can't really use that in your argument (broken checking broken). I've been seeing more physical hoopa, and they will always carry gunk shot, OHKOing pretty much all faries.
Wish duggy was on that list.. arena trap's got to go. It's basically equivalent to shadow tag because dugtrio would never be trying to trap anything that it's ability doesn't trap anyway (flyers), even if it could trap them. Why do we not apply the same logic for ST being deemed uncompetitive to AT?

Seems most people are in general agreement on everything else besides that. Phero/aegi quickban, lando/gene on the block next.

 

[Der Twist]

I've got to say I actually like having these things in the meta right now. I may be in the minority but I find teambuilding this gen is a lot less of a task than it was in OR/AS because there does seem to be more answers to even the bigger threats. Granted it is much more centralising, Aegislash is pretty much mandatory on any team of any playstyle as things stand and generally the things you need to deal with the stuff on this radar are... mainly other things on the radar. Regardless, it's not overly restrictive enough that creativity is lost in all teambuilding, I think it's a good mix as it stands. The issue here though is the Jenga effect, odds are if one of these guys goes, everything else on this list is suddenly going to be a way bigger problem and that's what'll boil down to the bans on the things that follow.
That said, and I don't lean incredibly strongly on this but I'll throw it out there, what I would be quite happy to see go is Swagger. That should not come back I wouldn't think. Shadow Tag and Arena trap are also candidates more for the sake as someone mentioned before that they're just uncompetitive strategies, Swagger above all. Yes, they have their holes but they're incredibly simple to abuse low-risk high-reward strategies that I think take more away from the game than those on the list as things stand. Lack of Arena trap could mean a much more open playground for Xurkitree and Tapu koko though so that might not end well, but that's a new can of worms altogether...