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The council has not officially decided anything; stop assuming things. We do not want the discussion to go on and on throughout the thread because the level of discussion surrounding it is absolutely horrible and we have heard every single argument on such a limited topic multiple times over. We want the conversation to focus on the Pokemon because we are trying to figure out if a quickban or a suspect is appropriate; we have plenty of arguments covering the ability vs Pokemon debate to let us act appropriately once we reach the first decision.
I don't know why people are assuming so much or completely disregarding posts from various moderators throughout this thread, but I am trying to be as open and transparent as possible here -- I want there to be an arena where the public can share their opinions and they can actually matter, which was not in place to the same extent last generation. Do not make me regret this or take advantage of this.
Generally think that a quickban is the best way to go about this. A suspect test just seems like a waste of time considering the overwhelming majority seems to agree darms broken as hell. A suspect test just feels like a waste of time for that reason. Why suspect darm when it can be Quick banned and we can immediately move on. I get the metas still settling down but nows the best time to quick ban gdarm before the meta settles down. The faster we remove it from the equation the sooner we can focus on other things i feel and i think that suspecting gdarm only delays that.
I mentioned why in previous posts this is the case just because of how overwhelming darm is both in preparing for it while building and dealing with it in battle. A simple unstabbed u turn from darm does like 40% to rotom-w with scarf and does like around mid 40's to defensive rotom-h if its banded(crash). Im pretty sure everyone can agree with it being a huge issue and i feel like Quick banning it is the best solution rather then burning time with a suspect.
As demonstrated by the overwhelming support of some kind of tiering action in this thread, a quickban would be preferable. A suspect's result would be inevitable here.
You did the calcs incorrectly. Choice Band + Gorilla Tactics isn't equal to +2 stages in attack. +2 in attack is equal to an attack stat multiplied by 2x, but Choice Band and Gorilla Tactics are two individual 1.5x multipliers, which multiply together to a 2.25x multiplier to attack. So Band set is actually stronger than you think. The actual calcs would be:
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can calc it by applying choice band and +1 in attack, since those are each 1.5x multipliers.
I logged in to post for the first time in over 4 years to voice my opinion that a suspect test would be a complete waste of time. A quick ban is the best way to handle the situation. We just had a couple weeks of wasted time going through the dmax suspect test when the writing was on the wall the entire time. Why do the same in this situation?
Building with darm in the tier is incredibly restricting, and not just because of its power and coverage. The few defensive answers to darm tend to kill your team's momentum or just roll over and die to a coverage move. There really aren't any viable offensive mons that can switch in and tank a hit and force darm out. I've had to slap Jellicent, Rotom-W or some other suboptimal mon on almost every team I make just to ensure darm doesnt 2HKO my entire team, but I'm soon left wide open to another mon to come in and clean up. U-turn and icicle crash flinches are still sometimes too much to deal with even with a bulky water on deck.
Anyway, y'all don't need me to convince you that it's broken. I just personally believe that a suspect test would be a waste of everyone's time and would restrict enjoyment of the game and restrict meta development for little reason.
If you don't want Garm banned, PLEASE share your opinion as to why. The vast majority have stated they believe Garm is broken and needs to be banned, any sort of insight into an anti-ban opinion would be appreciated so that we can see arguments from the other side.
If you don't want Garm banned, PLEASE share your opinion as to why. The vast majority have stated they believe Garm is broken and needs to be banned, any sort of insight into an anti-ban opinion would be appreciated so that we can see arguments from the other side.
I definitely agree with you, there has been way too much repetition on people voicing pro-ban arguments, it’s very stale. So I’m going to play some Devil’s Advocate and give some reasoning on my someone might think darm should not be banned, and might vote that way in a suspect test
When building for darm, it’s often not needed to become a detriment to your team, as speed control for darm fits into large, encompassing play styles, like webs, or rain.
It’s def not unwallable, between niche options, or common things like corsola
While with perfect prediction, darm can certainly decimate defensive cores, so can many other Pokémon, carrying super effective moves and predicting switch-ins with a choice lock is a pretty easy requirement to meet.
I don’t necessarily agree with these, I’m just trying to think for the sake of discussion
I hope this type of post is welcome, I’m a touch lost on what the main focus of this thread is at this point
If you don't want Garm banned, PLEASE share your opinion as to why. The vast majority have stated they believe Garm is broken and needs to be banned, any sort of insight into an anti-ban opinion would be appreciated so that we can see arguments from the other side.
Key word, WANT. I've always been largely vocal of Smogon being too ban happy at times (completely was on board with DMax ban though). Darm is incredibly powerful, yes. I do not doubt that in the slightest. There are multiple checks and stops to it, the problem with it is that it outright decimates other things making it overbearing. You know it's going to be one of two sets, speed control exists as well as multiple Pokemon who wall it's STAB and it's coverage. I would not be opposed to a suspect test, I just find the need to ban something so soon after a recent ban is kind of counter productive. The metagame is still very new. Let's see how they deal with it in SPL. Let's see how players prepare for it strategically in the coming weeks. If it's still dominating usage and a common theme is that it is breaking through all strategy? Quick ban it. But my point stands as in let the metagame evolve a little before we pull the trigger.
If the majority of the community feels that a threat is ban worthy, then a Quick Ban should take place. I feel that it's a waste of time to have a Suspect Test when most people who get reqs will vote ban anyway. A Suspect Test should only be done when there are valid arguments on both sides to banning or keeping a Suspect.
As this thread shows, the vast majority of players feel Darmanitan-G is an issue, so take immediate action.
Key word, WANT. I've always been largely vocal of Smogon being too ban happy at times (completely was on board with DMax ban though). Darm is incredibly powerful, yes. I do not doubt that in the slightest. There are multiple checks and stops to it, the problem with it is that it outright decimates other things making it overbearing. You know it's going to be one of two sets, speed control exists as well as multiple Pokemon who wall it's STAB and it's coverage. I would not be opposed to a suspect test, I just find the need to ban something so soon after a recent ban is kind of counter productive. The metagame is still very new. Let's see how they deal with it in SPL. Let's see how players prepare for it strategically in the coming weeks. If it's still dominating usage and a common theme is that it is breaking through all strategy? Quick ban it. But my point stands as in let the metagame evolve a little before we pull the trigger.
I think the point is that we remove darm as fast as possible so SPL wont have to deal with it. Banning darm isnt "ban happy" as you claim. Darms had ample time to show its a major issue in the current metagame. Pretty much every defensive counter-play darm has loses to banded darm or is still pressured by scarf darm. Jelicent loses to 2x band eq, Milotic takes 40-47% from banded eq with marvel scale activated, Rotom-h takes over 40% from banded crash and has to rely on Restochesto in order to possiblly eat more, Rotom-w takes a million damage from u-turn, Corsola checks but probably cant switch into banded darm, Vaporeon can take on scarf fairly well but most likely isnt switching into Banded eq. Notice where im going here? Darms combination of coverage allows it to pretty much cover everything it wants and with a simple item change can break past its otherwise would be switch ins.. Nothing good will come from suspecting darm when the outcome WILL be obvious. Checks exist but get bent in half if darms banded. While band darm is much easier to handle offensively its even harder to switch into. While Scarf is easier for fat mons to deal with its harder to check offensively. Darm is a huge issue in the tier and i thinking letting it stay until spl is a awful idea since it will just devolve into abusing darm to its fullest and every team trying to not auto lose to darm. A quickban is the best solution.
Was hoping to see some arguments for keeping Darm in this thread but it seems like no one really has an argument for that lol
In that case I have to say I think a quickban of Darmanitan (or GT, pls) is appropriate. I haven't laddered since Dynamax was banned but what I have played makes it pretty obvious that Darm 2HKOs a vast majority of the metagame and that is textbook brokenness for an offensive mon.
Compare it to Dracovish which is another really strong hitter and it becomes pretty obvious that Darm is crazy. Dracovish needs support in order to muscle past a lot of stuff and even you can stop it dead in its tracks with water immunity a lot of the time. Darm does not really need much in the way of support (it likes rocks but so does everything) and if you bring Darm in safely it is almost guaranteed to go at least 1 for 1 and often times 2 for 1.
If this was a meta that had more bullet punch and more mach punch this thing would be a lot more manageable but the dearth of priority in this metagame really gives Darm license to just go crazy every game. It doesn't need dynamax to accomplish what dynamax usually did, which is kill 2+ Pokémon with 1 Pokémon. And just like Dynamax you have to constantly be wary of situations where Darm can come in safely. This thing is even terrifying just at team preview since the opponent can lead with it very safely if you have nothing to outspeed it.
A week ago I would have said let's suspect this guy but I haven't seen anyone make a really compelling case to not ban it.
Alright enough shitposting, I’m gonna actually give my opinion. Mods treat this thread as a political debate ( instead of a mons site ), so I’m just gonna try and give my argument. I REALLY do not wanna be known as the LO Darm guy.
Anyways, Darm is super strong. Little to nothing can switch into band and get 3hkoed and scarf hits hard as shit too. When I left my garbage post like a week ago, people spammed it with “ everything gets 2hkoe by bannd!!! “
Before you make such a vague statement as “ everything gets 2hkoed “ just calc. Lmao
vs scarf
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 75-89 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
vs band
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Heat: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
———
vs scarf
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 84-99 (27.6 - 32.5%) -- 71.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs band
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 124-147 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
———
vs scarf
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
———
vs scarf
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 190-225 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
———
vs scarf
+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Secondly, Darm is the ONLY mon with GT. Why did arena trap get banned and not just Duggy? Because people were getting results out of using Trapinch and Diglett. I don’t see any good reason to ban a mon with a good ability unless others get it and are using it to shitpump the tier.
I know people aren’t gonna take me seriously because I’m braindead and the mods will take this down without reading it, but I just want to write one or two paragraph just saying how I feel. NONE OF THIS IS OBJECTIVE. An anime pfp replying to me and writing a 16 page essay about why I’m wrong isn’t going to change my mind.
e. if you all spam this w laugh im going to shit my pants
I agree. This is why suspect vote gives you no power. The real decisions are made long before the suspect test is even live. The council dictates what we can vote on and frames our options; if they don’t present the options the community wants then that pretty much defeats the point of letting people cast their vote in the first place. What we really should be able to vote on is who sits on the council.
Just made an account to say this, hasn't there been precedent for doing a suspect on multiple mons at the same time? I recall that being done in gen 5 I believe?
Why don't we run a suspect test of both Vish and Darm at the same time? And we can speed up the requirements compared to the last one to make it quicker. This would be most efficient and they don't affect each other (in fact, if you get rid of one, you likely see an increase in the other).
I do believe Darm is broken, and I think it's suspect worthy but maybe not quite quickban level. Lots of good analysis in this thread on pro-ban. Here are some pro-no ban arguments: the main reason why I think it's not quick-ban is because I think the choice-lock aspect of Darm is being underappreciated by pro-ban people. If you could run LO or deceptive expert belt sets, then this thing is straight broken. The fact that you can maneuver and gain momentum by predicting Flare / Ice / EQ locks + stealth rocks weak + usage of moves like protect make Darm reasonably manageable every game by an experienced player. Ice crash really only becomes spammable late game, but Darm never makes it to late game if you play well. The issue of course, is U-Turn which means Darm has a move that obviates its choice-lock weakness and can preserve momentum in the game - and that's why it pushes into broken / suspect test area for me (if no u-turn, no-ban for me). Of course, I'd also like efficiency so I'm rather partial to the quick-ban side of things if it had to come down to it.
I do believe Vish is unhealthy to the metagame as it restricts teambuilding way too significantly. In the rain, I believe it is flat out broken. I believe that's a fair statement since rain is a viable strategy so I do not think this is the equivalent of saying "Chlorophyll Venu" is broken in the sun.
Basically the thread is asking two questions: 1) Do you think Darmanitan-G is banworthy and 2) if so, would you advocate for a suspect or a quickban? In my last post I only really addressed question 2, where I advocated for a suspect test in which G-Darm is removed from the OU ladder. I'd like to address question 1 here.
Darmanitan-Galar is broken. I am surprised that in 12 pages of discussion and with such an overwhelming ban majority, no one has referenced the actual definition of a "broken" pokemon (referring to the tiering policy guidelines), which I think is the most irrefutable argument to make:
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
I think Darmanitan very clearly satisfies this criteria. Gen 8 OU is balanced around a much lower level of power than the last several generations of OU, with the exception of a few pokemon, Darmanitan being one of them. Given its 140 base atk, powerful STAB and Gorilla Tactics ability, it is vastly stronger than anything else your opponent could possibly have, unless they bring G-Darm themselves. It is also faster than all but six pokemon that are currently OU by usage, meaning it doesn't suffer from poor speed issues like other strong wallbreakers (e.g. Crawdaunt, Hoopa-U in past gens). So yes, while "both players can use it", the player who has Darmanian on the field is at an advantage over the player who does not.
It also renders "more skillful play" irrelevant in two ways. First, it mitigates its own biggest weakness - its reliance on correct prediction - by brute forcing its way through its defensive answers. Choice Band G-Darm is (in my view) its most broken set because +2 Icicle Crash obliterates every defensive answer in the tier except PhysDef Toxapex (underrated set but generally suboptimal), and Avalugg (borderline irrelevant stallmon). Other checks such as PhysDef Jellicent and Corsola-Galar barely avoid the 2hko from full, and are 2hko'd after rocks. This grossly invalidates the concept of skillful play because the Darmanitan user only has to worry about bringing it in and not missing Icicle Crash, while the opponent has no meaningful opportunity to pivot into a resistance or prevent having to sac a mon to revenge kill CB Darm. Second, while Scarf G-Darm is somewhat more manageable defensively, it can't be easily revenge killed without priority or by running "extraordinarily niche [scarfers] that otherwise put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere".
In the Marshadow ban justification thread last gen, the council provided the following reasoning: "Generally, a pokemon can still be balanced when it is difficult to revenge kill, or if it has limited defensive counterplay. But when it has both these qualities, it can become too much very quickly." This statement succinctly describes Darmanitan-Galar and therefore I would advocate that it banned, including for the reasons listed above.
The anti-ban counterargument (which I am not personally advocating for!!!), could be made out using the same criteria. While CB Darm does lack defensive counterplay, every single OU pokemon above base 95 speed has the means to come in and kill Darm outright, or force it out. All of those pokemon are very good in the meta, and likely to be on any given team. This hurts Darm because you can't U-turn, and because it is already prone to being worn down by hazards + recoil, losing you momentum against offensive teams. Even against stall, CB Darm risks being revenge killed by Dugtrio the second it gets one kill at most, and stall has the freedom to run blanket checks like Pex+Corsola+Avalugg to try and pivot around Darm, or Sash Dugtrio to tank the hit and eliminate Darm. Scarf Darm is more reliant on prediction against fat teams due to Regenerator Pex and the distribution of Strength Sap as a fantastic recovery+crippling option. None of the defensive checks and pivots used to check Scarf Darmanitan are "niche" or otherwise bad at checking Darm. Rotom-H, Milotic, Jellicent, Toxapex, Corsola-G and Seismitoad are all staples on a variety of builds and have a comparatively greater level of survivability than Darmanitan does, equalizing the "skillful play" aspect between the Darm user keeping it alive and predicting well vs the opponent having an easier time preserving its checks. Darm does have five other pokemon on its team to weaken these checks, but you could argue that two or several pokemon could reasonably be run together to mitigate this problem and still provide other useful functions in the meta (e.g. Jellicent primarily checking Dracovish and soft-checking Darm, while Rotom-H primarily checks Darm and soft-checks LO Clef). So while Darm is incredibly potent offensively, it isn't so potent to the point where skillful play is "irrelevant" or teambuilding is constrained by running overly niche, unviable mons.
I provided a brief anti-ban argument above because I don't think it's healthy for any community to have endlessly one-sided discussion as if the opposing side doesn't exist. I will not advocate any further for anti-ban, because it is not my personal stance, but G-Darm isn't flawless, and should not be represented as such.
Just made an account to say this, hasn't there been precedent for doing a suspect on multiple mons at the same time? I recall that being done in gen 5 I believe?
Why don't we run a suspect test of both Vish and Darm at the same time? And we can speed up the requirements compared to the last one to make it quicker. This would be most efficient and they don't affect each other (in fact, if you get rid of one, you likely see an increase in the other).
I do believe Darm is broken, and I think it's suspect worthy but maybe not quite quickban level. Lots of good analysis in this thread on pro-ban. Here are some pro-no ban arguments: the main reason why I think it's not quick-ban is because I think the choice-lock aspect of Darm is being underappreciated by pro-ban people. If you could run LO or deceptive expert belt sets, then this thing is straight broken. The fact that you can maneuver and gain momentum by predicting Flare / Ice / EQ locks + stealth rocks weak + usage of moves like protect make Darm reasonably manageable every game by an experienced player. Ice crash really only becomes spammable late game, but Darm never makes it to late game if you play well. The issue of course, is U-Turn which means Darm has a move that obviates its choice-lock weakness and can preserve momentum in the game - and that's why it pushes into broken / suspect test area for me (if no u-turn, no-ban for me). Of course, I'd also like efficiency so I'm rather partial to the quick-ban side of things if it had to come down to it.
I do believe Vish is unhealthy to the metagame as it restricts teambuilding way too significantly. In the rain, I believe it is flat out broken. I believe that's a fair statement since rain is a viable strategy so I do not think this is the equivalent of saying "Chlorophyll Venu" is broken in the sun.
While I don't think Vish is a problem currently (or at least not one of any urgency), I think arena trap is and should darm be suspected instead of quickbanned, there could be a benefit to killing two birds with one stone, rather than wasting two weeks on a single test we pretty much know the outcome of. As much as I'd prefer a test to a quickban, I think this thread displays well enough why it's not really necessary in this case, so there isn't much merit in spending two weeks banning darm without also (or even only) looking at something else imo.
Darm's dumb, I don't really have too much to add beyond what has been said but I wanted it on the record rofl. Every game with it is a borderline comedy with so many acts: U-turn does 30 to its main check and essentially makes it prepare its own sweep really easily, or you get multiple flinches with an absurdly good stab that 3hkoes resists, or you lose the speed tie cause ultimately why wouldn't you run your own like what, or you think you stomach one hit but oh god your Corviknight drops to icicle crash cause it's band oh wha- Essentially Darm in a game makes the game about Darm pretty much every time, while yes there's an obvious need to be cautious over threats in games Darm pushes that to absurd degrees not just by overprepping in the builder but also with how ungodly it is to keep at bay in the actual game.
One of the reasons for that is obviously the absurdly bad level of the defensive gameplay surrounding Darm. Bulky waters sort of work but are beyond passive and don't actually punish you very well, like great you predicted the Crash and went to Toxapex, but said Toxapex might invite three other things sooo are you really out of the woods? Wash takes an absurd amount from U-turn and fears Toad just coming in to do whatever even if you predict right, said Toad obviously does not check Darm. The best new counter is like Rotom-Heat but weellll Darm learns Rock Slide and it doesn't actually need EQ? Also a sitting duck against the best rocker in the tier but you know. Then you have some offensive counterplay except priority is generally mediocre in this tier and faster scarfers work but at the same time it's bad cause you are not running Darm.
I'm all for quickbanning it, although really that's the prerogative of the OU council if there's a consensus surrounding how broken Darm is at that level, and I don't see any point in suspecting it. It's essentially a new tier after the ban of Dynamax and would be our first "pokemon ban", shadow tag notwithstanding, to illustrate said newness. It's also pointless to compare it to previous metas quickbans, as they're obviously... not this meta (lower tiers quickban all the time because the meta changes all the time, for another example) and the power creep is completely different: this gen is a significant step down in that regard yet here we are talking about a 140 +1 attack mon with excellent speed.
Darm's dumb, I don't really have too much to add beyond what has been said but I wanted it on the record rofl. Every game with it is a borderline comedy with so many acts: U-turn does 30 to its main check and essentially makes it prepare its own sweep really easily, or you get multiple flinches with an absurdly good stab that 3hkoes resists, or you lose the speed tie cause ultimately why wouldn't you run your own like what, or you think you stomach one hit but oh god your Corviknight drops to icicle crash cause it's band oh wha- Essentially Darm in a game makes the game about Darm pretty much every time, while yes there's an obvious need to be cautious over threats in games Darm pushes that to absurd degrees not just by overprepping in the builder but also with how ungodly it is to keep at bay in the actual game.
One of the reasons for that is obviously the absurdly bad level of the defensive gameplay surrounding Darm. Bulky waters sort of work but are beyond passive and don't actually punish you very well, like great you predicted the Crash and went to Toxapex, but said Toxapex might invite three other things sooo are you really out of the woods? Wash takes an absurd amount from U-turn and fears Toad just coming in to do whatever even if you predict right, said Toad obviously does not check Darm. The best new counter is like Rotom-Heat but weellll Darm learns Rock Slide and it doesn't actually need EQ? Also a sitting duck against the best rocker in the tier but you know. Then you have some offensive counterplay except priority is generally mediocre in this tier and faster scarfers work but at the same time it's bad cause you are not running Darm.
I'm all for quickbanning it, although really that's the prerogative of the OU council if there's a consensus surrounding how broken Darm is at that level, and I don't see any point in suspecting it. It's essentially a new tier after the ban of Dynamax and would be our first "pokemon ban", shadow tag notwithstanding, to illustrate said newness. It's also pointless to compare it to previous metas quickbans, as they're obviously... not this meta (lower tiers quickban all the time because the meta changes all the time, for another example) and the power creep is completely different: this gen is a significant step down in that regard yet here we are talking about a 140 +1 attack mon with excellent speed.
I actually think this is a better write up than many pro-ban posts before, so thanks, it does help me get more onboard with quick-banning. I know this "On the radar" thing is kind of a new thing, but if we had just suspected it the same time this thread launched, then we would probably be near the voting stage by now. Is there a reason why we didn't do it immediately, was the idea that you want the meta to settle before immediately suspecting something new? Sorry, I know this is off-topic slightly
While I don't think Vish is a problem currently (or at least not one of any urgency), I think arena trap is and should darm be suspected instead of quickbanned, there could be a benefit to killing two birds with one stone, rather than wasting two weeks on a single test we pretty much know the outcome of. As much as I'd prefer a test to a quickban, I think this thread displays well enough why it's not really necessary in this case, so there isn't much merit in spending two weeks banning darm without also (or even only) looking at something else imo.
I completely agree here. I know it was already explicitly stated that this thread is only for Darm, but we really need Arena Trap gone just as much, and we all know the outcome of that because it's the same outcome we've always gotten with Shadow Tag/Arena Trap. We don't need to waste a week on Darm, nor do we on Arena Trap. Especially seeing as the removal of Darm will probably only make Dug stronger. I'm sure Dug didn't like dealing with Darm either.
Hmm... weirdly enough, and I may be alone in feeling/thinking this, I think that in some ways the D-Max ban made Gorilla Tactics G-Darm more of a monster to deal with. When D-Max was still around, in a game where your Maxing was tactically preserved, it could be used to guarantee an offensive measure against a Darm that was comfortable staying in. In the end game, the pokemon that were preserved to 'check' G-Darm (whatever that means lmao) like Jelli or Rotom-H for example, could D-max and kill because of extra HP even if they were weakened, that is if another one of your more D-Max oriented mons had not already offensively pressured/swept after your opponent used theirs.
This is by no means a defense of D-Max or some critique of the ban, but I also never really thought G-Darm was the best D-Maxer. It was a relatively (keyword) more predictable D-Max and manageable because the scarf is lost. So even if a mon is lost, revenging (because of Darm's weak defenses) was easier. And the opponents D-Max was effectively 'wasted'.
Now... that is not to say it was not amazing and busted in the time of D-Max. But my point is that D-Max allowed for more potential sponging of hits and immediate retaliation.
As others have pointed out, there is not very good counterplay to G-Tactics. Team building is not only restricted in the first place to account for this thing but the measures that do need to be taken to effectively counter this mon either involve passive mons that sap so much momentum or involve mons that can be easily weakened for a late-game cleanup.
Also, the need to prepare for the more viable and used G-Tactics makes teams susceptible to a BD-Zen Mode sweep.
Yeah. Don't know how much this opinion holds, but this mon with G-Tactics is just no fun. For someone who likes to use 'cheese' sometimes or more gimmicky, off the road sets on the ladder, this thing is a nightmare. It just puts so much pressure on teams all by itself (forget the other 5 mons the opp is carrying). Competitively speaking, I feel it should be banned.
Can't really speak on the suspect vs quick ban stuff as I am not familiar really with how that all exactly works.
I would like to argue that Galarian Darmanitan (and similarly Dracovish) are actually healthy for the metagame due to creating a huge and welcome variety in the metagame. You can argue they are centralizing, but I would like to point out that they are quite the opposite. And that’s because of the opportunities they provide to other Pokémon getting usage.
To provide a switch in option for G-Darm’s STAB attacks, people have found adequate options in:
It’s great to see these Pokémon getting OU usage. And similarly Dracovish (which I’m only mentioning due to the striking similarities) has meant that Appletun, Seismitoad, Avalugg, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Lapras, Jellicent, Milotic, etc have been seeing usage.
And because all of these G-Darm and Dracovish counters have risen in prominence on the ladder, other Pokémon have now been recruited to teams to deal with these bulky Pokémon, including:
Rotom Mow
Conkeldurr
Obstagoon
Roserade
All of the Pokémon I have listed in the post would struggle to find a niche in OU without the threats of G-Darm and Dracovish. They actually bring a huge diversity and freshness to the metagame that we haven’t seen in many years. Lapras and Flareon in OU? It’s so great to see! And I know I’m not alone when I say this because it’s been said a lot on these forums
I implore you all to realise this argument has a valid point and take this into consideration when making any decisions. G-Darm and it’s subsequent checks bring a huge variety of Pokémon into the OU metagame, and that can never be a bad thing.
I know a lot of people will say “why should we care if a bunch of garbage mons get used or not, they shouldn’t have OU niches, they’re garbage and G-Darm forces us to use garbage.”
Well they are clearly NOT garbage, and people should embrace it and enjoy the opportunity to use so many previously undervalued Pokémon.
I would like to argue that Galarian Darmanitan (and similarly Dracovish) are actually healthy for the metagame due to creating a huge and welcome variety in the metagame. You can argue they are centralizing, but I would like to point out that they are quite the opposite. And that’s because of the opportunities they provide to other Pokémon getting usage.
To provide a switch in option for G-Darm’s STAB attacks, people have found adequate options in:
It’s great to see these Pokémon getting OU usage. And similarly Dracovish (which I’m only mentioning due to the striking similarities) has meant that Appletun, Seismitoad, Avalugg, Gastrodon, Vaporeon, Lapras, Jellicent, Milotic, etc have been seeing usage.
And because all of these G-Darm and Dracovish counters have risen in prominence on the ladder, other Pokémon have now been recruited to teams to deal with these bulky Pokémon, including:
Rotom Mow
Conkeldurr
Obstagoon
Roserade
All of the Pokémon I have listed in the post would struggle to find a niche in OU without the threats of G-Darm and Dracovish. They actually bring a huge diversity and freshness to the metagame that we haven’t seen in many years. Lapras and Flareon in OU? It’s so great to see! And I know I’m not alone when I say this because it’s been said a lot on these forums
I implore you all to realise this argument has a valid point and take this into consideration when making any decisions. G-Darm and it’s subsequent checks bring a huge variety of Pokémon into the OU metagame, and that can never be a bad thing.
I know a lot of people will say “why should we care if a bunch of garbage mons get used or not, they shouldn’t have OU niches, they’re garbage and G-Darm forces us to use garbage.”
Well they are clearly NOT garbage, and people should embrace it and enjoy the opportunity to use so many previously undervalued Pokémon.
So what? Why should we care in any way, shape, or form if these Pokemon get used? If Darmanitan being banned makes them stop seeing use, then such is life. Also, this thread is about Darmanitan so I’m gonna stick with that discussion. Variety quite frankly doesn’t fucking matter in this case considering Darmanitan is such a broken and overbearing force for the reasons many have already stated. Variety should NEVER compromise the metagame’s health and the fact you need to slap on Rotom-H on to so many teams or use garbage or mediocre Pokemon like Lapras and Milotic just to handle it somewhat (U-Turn is gonna chip all its counters anyway) is absolute nonsense and if anything makes the pro ban side stronger since variety decreases in having to run the same shit constantly just to somewhat handle Darmanitan when it can still beat them for the most part over time anyway. You did absolutely nothing to show why Darmanitan itself isn’t banworthy and just stated “muh variety” which isn’t even an argument that should entertain the thoughts of people who care about this tier. As I said to you before, people’s opinions like yours hold no weight in these discussions because you’d rather point false positives or negatives rather than actually argue what’s here and how the metagame actually is in a high level in terms of its overall balance. Sorry, can’t “embrace” this idea because I actually want the tier to be healthy and maybe you should lurk more. And before you hit the reply button and tell me about how metagame variety is so important and how I just want an easy process of teambuilding with no thought, Darmanitan being banned won’t make the metagame less varied, it just removes most of the broken part of the variety we have.
So what? Why should we care in any way, shape, or form if these Pokemon get used? If Darmanitan being banned makes them stop seeing use, then such is life. Also, this thread is about Darmanitan so I’m gonna stick with that discussion. Variety quite frankly doesn’t fucking matter in this case considering Darmanitan is such a broken and overbearing force for the reasons many have already stated. Variety should NEVER compromise the metagame’s health and the fact you need to slap on Rotom-H on to so many teams or use garbage or mediocre Pokemon like Lapras and Milotic just to handle it somewhat (U-Turn is gonna chip all its counters anyway) is absolute nonsense and if anything makes the pro ban side stronger since variety decreases in having to run the same shit constantly just to somewhat handle Darmanitan when it can still beat them for the most part over time anyway. You did absolutely nothing to show why Darmanitan itself isn’t banworthy and just stated “muh variety” which isn’t even an argument that should entertain the thoughts of people who care about this tier. As I said to you before, people’s opinions like yours hold no weight in these discussions because you’d rather point false positives or negatives rather than actually argue what’s here and how the metagame actually is in a high level in terms of its overall balance. Sorry, can’t “embrace” this idea because I actually want the tier to be healthy and maybe you should lurk more. And before you hit the reply button and tell me about how metagame variety is so important and how I just want an easy process of teambuilding with no thought, Darmanitan being banned won’t make the metagame less varied, it just removes most of the broken part of the variety we have.
I already addressed your counter argument because I knew you’d throw it at me. If people refuse to put the above mentioned Pokémon on their team to deal with G-Darm, either because they don’t like those Pokémon or because they are too stubborn to change their ways, and therefore they struggle with G-Darm, then that is their problem, not G-Darm’s.
I already addressed your counter argument because I knew you’d throw it at me. If people refuse to put the above mentioned Pokémon on their team to deal with G-Darm, either because they don’t like those Pokémon or because they are too stubborn to change their ways, and therefore they struggle with G-Darm, then that is their problem, not G-Darm’s.
Except most of these “adequate options” lose to banded sets and are a U-Turn or 2 away from 2HKO range with scarf (or have no recovery in the case of the rotoms). People aren’t “too stubborn to change”, people tried Lapras and learned it’s total shit that can’t take 2 earthquakes after the slightest amount of chip. And regardless, any competent defensive backbone has one of the more viable answers listed and still lose to Darm clicking U-turn a few times and then breaking through.
I already addressed your counter argument because I knew you’d throw it at me. If people refuse to put the above mentioned Pokémon on their team to deal with G-Darm, either because they don’t like those Pokémon or because they are too stubborn to change their ways, and therefore they struggle with G-Darm, then that is their problem, not G-Darm’s.
>Literally didn’t even address anything I had to say except say something totally wrong lmao. One ear out the other as I always say.
Did you just read a totally different post and mistake it with my own? Ah yes, Galarian Darmanitan could not possibly be broken, because people aren’t running enough variety based counters. Not like most people are throwing on Rotom-H, Jellicent, and Vaporeon on most of their teams to attempt to handle it yet they get overwhelmed anyway and people consider it broken. And not like we’re actually attempting adaptation with the mons you youself mentioned yet Darmanitan is still seen as broken by the vast majority. Variety should always be put before metagame health and stability, not like having a healthy and balanced metagame is our goal as a community or anything. Anyway, sarcasm aside, I like how you didn’t address ANY other point in my post whatsoever and instead dismissed it just to poke at the “variety” bit. That’s probably because you have no actual rebuttal and if you do quote this post, you’ll keep bitching about the variety thing anyway so whatever.
Anyway, to prevent this post from being deleted on the basis of double posting or some other shit, I think I’d rather we quick ban Galarian Darmanitan at this point for all the reasons people such as Bro Fist, Durza, and Gary have pointed out early on in the thread. Not to mention there’s more or less universal agreement for this among good players and even outsiders from the tournament scene. Although if a suspect must be done for policy purposes, so be it.
