NU Stage 10 - Suspect Discussion

[Annoyer]

Just saying but Metang is definitely not just used for Jynx. In fact, it still had pretty decent usage even before Jynx came in the meta just because its typing and bulk lets it check like all normal and flying type attackers too such as Kanga or Braviary. And in every single meta, you do have to prepare for every single threat out there regardless of whether the threat is as good as Jynx or not. People make what you may consider gimmick, but what I consider adapting, sets all the time. It's not like spdef eggy cant do anything else outside of being a lure for jynx, it still does its job pretty well and just as effectively. People always use "gimmick" sets all the time to deal with certain pokemon such as running Foul Play on Electrode, HP Grass on Rotom-S, Stone Edge on Gurdurr for Scolipede, and in OU, HP Ice on stufff like Terrakion for lando-T even exists, and the thig is no different for dealing with Jynx.

 

[phantom]

I'm honestly starting to think that this is a case over-adaption rather than adaption itself. I mean let's be real here, no used RestTalk metang before Jynx. You do have a point that it checks normal- and flying-types, but so do Golem, defensive Carrocosta, and a bunch of other stuff to an extent. The rise of metang, grumpig, bronzor is solely do to Jynx's presence. I understand that they have roles besides checking Jynx, but as of now, their existence is attributed to stopping the aforementioned threat first and foremost. In all honestly, it does restrict team building by a good mile by forcing you to have multiple checks in one team. The checks of course aren't common fit, they're usually obscure Pokemon with a specific niche. I think this is the issue with Jynx. If its checks are easier to fit on teams and have can pull their weight outside of beating Jynx (to the same degree as another more conventional normal- or flying-type resist), then I would have no problem with it. But as of now, these things don't stand. Something else is that I've always seen Jynx as the Darkrai of NU. They're both very similar: insane offenses, great abilities, and sleeping moves to top it all off. Both of them are also checked by peculiar Pokemon, Sleep Talk Heracross; RestTalk metang. The difference between the two is that one is banned and the other isn't (hint hint). Yes it can be checked, yes entry hazards wear it down, but that applies to so many other things in other suspect tests that have proven to be broken. The issue at hand is not whether or not you can check it, but how far do you have to go to do so. To what extent does checking Jynx become more or less difficult compared to say KangasKhan or Samurott. There's also the matter with how Jynx influences speed tiers. I think anything that either slows a metagame down or speeds it up single-handedly is unhealthy. I would say Primeape helps influence the speed tiers a bit, but I wouldn't call it as metagame defining as Jynx, in which case the speed tier issue revolves mostly around Jynx. There's also the matter that the previous speed tier (around 80 or so) was occupied and influenced by multiple Pokemon, not just one. Another thing that's brought up is Jynx's weakness to priority attacks. The only relevant priority moves that can target Jynx are Fake Out and ExtremeSpeed and the former is still kinda rare while Fake Out is so easily predicted. Jynx is immune to the most common priority move and Sucker Punch is easy to avoid with Lovely Kiss or Substitute. Another thing is revenge killing Jynx with faster threats, but Substitute or even Choice Scarf can screw with that plan. Finally, you might have something that can take a hit and OHKO back, but watch it get crippled by Lovely Kiss when it tries to check Jynx. This makes checking Jynx a team effort because you need to find something to absorb the sleep and make sure your incoming check comes in healthy enough to beat it.

tl:dr

Jynx is suspect worthy at the very least. It brings a lot of focus onto one Pokemon and holds too much influence on its own for it be considered anything other than unhealthy in regards to the current state of the metagame. Anything with this much influence basically makes the tier orbit around it. In other words, diversity is thrown out the window by dealing with such a threat. Jynx may have flaws, but being the phenomenal Pokemon it is, it can easily circumnavigate them through multiple ways. NU is a tier that holds diversity as its selling point over others and Jynx is putting a serious muzzle around that.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I'll still stand by my opinion that Swagger should be suspected. Swagger IS a 50-50 chance between winning and losing, but I feel that it's bad for two reasons: 1) it is difficult to counter and 2) it is uncompetitive.

1) really, the only reliable ways to counter Liepard are Own Tempo mons. Right now, there are only two common mons that have Own Tempo -- defensive Ludicolo and Lickilicky, and nowadays it isn't easy to throw it onto most teams. You might say that priority, taunt, multihit moves and phazing, but most of these go after Swagger and there is still that high chance that they hit themselves. In NU, very few priority moves go before Swagger: Swellow, Floatzel and Sneasel. However, they can get hit on the switch which doesn't make them counters, and their high stack stats mean that they really don't appreciate confusion and Foul Play.

2) Swagger alone turns an entire game to a coin flip. We all think good battles are one which consist of good plays, but with Swagger, it turns the entire thing into luck based. It takes no skill and little prediction to Swagger something, click Substitute and Foul Play the crap out of something. I don't deny that this plan easily backfires, but it's still a coin flip and still skillless

Edit: and before someone gives the argument that Iron Head Jirachi is worse, I'll say that a) Liepard can set up whatever it wants as the opponent hits itself while Jirachi needs to use the move to flinch, b) Jirachi needs to outspeed to get the flinch and needs two turns to get the para+flinch, while Liepard's Swagger will nearly always go first due to higher priority, as well as having a good speed allowing to Foul Play several mons.

 

[Punchshroom]

A good point was brought up earlier: how to deal with Jynx. In terms of the RU drops' impact, Jynx has had the biggest impact and shaped much of the entire metagame for better or worse(?). Let's compare the influence each RU drop had had on the meta:

Primeape: Compared to Sawk, Ape hits (or unlikley, sets) the important 95 speed tier, but has notably less Attack. The most noteworthy aspect of Ape is that it has U-turn, allowing it to perform hit-and-run antics to escape its counters, while also dealing super effective strikes on Psychics. It also has the nifty Vital Spirit, which grants it the rare privilege of switching into Jynx's Lovely Kiss and threatening her with STAB Close Combat or SE U-turn. However, even with U-turn, Primeape cannot beat much of what Sawk cannot: Ape is still not beating Musharna for days even with the SE move, while Misdreavus, Alomomola, Tangela and Golbat brush off Ape's attacks like nothing. Its most common set, Choice Scarf, allows Ape to revenge kill (slightly) more opponents, but this means Ape's attacks are all unboosted by any item or nature, because doing so means it has to take a gamble with Jynx, who is also a popular Scarfer due to sharing the same speed tier, Lovely Kiss and Trick. If Primeape does not run a Scarf, it loses much of its merit in Vital Spirit since it either speedties or loses to all Jynx as a result.
Overall, Primeape's impact on the meta is not overly prominent when considering the high standard for fast-paced and powerful offense, and can find its place on teams as a fast pivot.

Mandibuzz: The only defensive RU drop, Mandibuzz set a new standard for 'bulky' with her 110/105/95 defenses which are very impressive. Not only that, but she can stallbreak very well with Taunt and Roost combined with that great bulk and usable speed. And she has STAB Foul Play too, meaning she can fight back much better than her competitor Golbat, who shares much of her traits up until this point. While Mandibuzz cannot stop Jynx unless the former is healthy and the latter is not, everything she resists has to adapt or will be stunted heavily. Most Grass-types cannot break Mandibuzz even with the help of Hidden Power, Ghosts and Psychics will have to invest in Thunderbolt if they want to get past the vulture, while Golurk, the most important threat that Mandibuzz beats, have considered the option of more speed to outrun Mandibuzz, though the vulture can simply run a bit more to compensate for that. Mandibuzz is held back by her Stealth Rock weakness and lack of many resists, but can absorb many powerful blows from both end of the spectrum with her raw bulk alone, whilst attempts to stall Mandibuzz (or stopping her from stalling you!) will prove difficult with her access to Taunt+Roost.
Overall, Mandibuzz has had a fairly prominent impact on the tier since she managed to somewhat slow down the surge of hyper offense, and gave more balanced or defensive teams a chance to regain their limelight and helped to stabilize and balance the tier, if ever so slightly.

Scolipede: Great speed, great coverage, acceptable power, an immense movepool and most importantly Spikes makes Scolipede tailor-made for almost any role an offensive team could want, and even managed to fit in some defensive teams. A fast Spiker that can fight back is just what HO teams ordered, as they can quickly set the pace of the match with instant pressure, be it passive or aggressive. Swords Dance sets aim to spam the strongest Bug move in the tier to skewer things hard, and use its impressive coverage to back it up or even try Baton Pass to allow a teammate to sweep when things get tough for Pede. However, even with the potential movesets that can be concocted with Scolipede's offensive and support options, it usually boils down to either Spikes, Swords Dance or even both. There's also the fact that Scolipede is very frail: even bulkier Scolipedes aim to set more entry hazards rather than actually walling threats.If Scolipede's Megahorn is resisted, its unboosted 90 base Attack means its coverage options aren't quite strong enough to bring down the obstacle without risking major damage no thanks to its fraility, meaning the likes of Misdreavus, Torkoal, Golurk, Gurdurr, Garbodor and Braviary are good checks/counters to Pede. As a result, Scolipede does not last very long on the field at all. However, the time a well-played Scolipede does spend attacking can leave quite the dent on your team, no mtter how little moves it pulls off. That kind of move-reward ratio is not to be underestimated.
Overall, Scolipede has a very prominent impact on the tier by paving the way for offense to come steamrolling right through, and is the proponent for popularizing heavy offense.

Jynx: We've talked about her numerous times already, so let's just get to the part on how one deals with her. Here's the thing, she has Lovely Kiss, high power and great coverage. Now when compared to Scolipede, who has had a great impact on the tier but can still be stopped by fairly traditional and standard (not far-fetch'd) sets like Rock Blast Garbodor and Flamethrower Weezing, but Jynx has made the usage of obscure moves or pokemon viable, like Sleep Talk Metang (without Rest), Psyshock Musharna, Scald+EQ Toad, Pursuit Tauros, Vital Spirit Magmar, Sneasel, Hypno, Grumpig, Bronzor, Wormadam-T and the one that crowns them all: Gyro Ball Wartortle. Not to say some of these pokemon are bad, but as an example I'd rather use Gardevoir over Hypno and Grumpig due to access to both Wish and Heal Bell. All of the aforementioned Jynx roadblocks are very uncommon or downright unheard of pre-Jynx, and the fact that these sets exist only proves that Jynx's presence can put quite a strain in teambuilding.
Overall, Jynx has a downright domineering presence on the meta, and basically shaped the meta around herself, be it by setting the speed tier to beat, necessitating the use of an Ice-resist, and packing an measure against sleep all on the same team. Whether Jynx is banworthy is still up for debate, but she is definitely suspect-worthy.

 

[Django]

I want to talk about something icecream touched on re: Jynx and speed tiers. Jynx completely destroys the existing speed tiers, and in fact makes using some Pokemon which are slower than it a complete liability. Everyone has agreed that Jynx is exceptionally dangerous once it gets in, and most of the time its going to either cripple something with sleep (basically a KO in such an agressive metagame), or just start smacking stuff with its powerful STABs / Focus Blast. The problem is that getting Jynx in is difficult and risky, and rightly so, its frail and has a poor defensive typing. Thus, one of the main ways it gets in is coming in when one of its teammates dies / gets sacrificed, and here's where Jynx's effect on the metagame becomes apparent. As an example:

Recently I was building a team and found Braviary fit my last slot very well. It provided good synergy with everything else, broke walls I needed to break, and gave me a necessary Ground-type immunity. Could I use it? Nope. The reason was it's slower than Jynx and is completely vulnerable to it. The problem is that if the opposing team has a Jynx, using Braviary becomes a complete liability, since I cannot ever afford to kill something with Braviary, as it gives Jynx free reign to come in and start doing its thing completely for free. In the end I went with Dodrio as it provides a slightly worse version of Braviary without being Jynx fodder. For all intents and purposes though Dodrio is a worse Pokemon. Now, this argument can obviously be applied to any fast and powerful NU sweeper (Charizard, Haunter, Primeape, Scolipede, Swellow etc). The difference is, and especially for offensive teams, all these other Pokemon can actually be switched into. Nothing else posesses the combination of Speed, ridiculously good offensive typing, a "reliable" sleep move, huge offensive stats and fantastic movepool / ability to use multiple sets easily. There is no single (good) Pokemon that can reliably switch into all of Jynx's sets easily, mainly due to Lovely Kiss. The majority of teams also cannot afford the space to run a dedicated "counter" like Bronzor / Metang since they are mostly a) sub par Pokemon and b) come carrying gigantic signs saying "Please powerful NU sweeper set up on me".

Something else that can be argued against Jynx is that you have to sacrifice something to get it in safely, but is this really such a big deal? A lot of the time you will have death fodder lying around, or a Golem on 1% after setting up Stealth Rock or whatever, and the returns you get from a free Jynx switch in are far, far greater than the sacrifice. Finally, its not like you can actually just sacrifice Pokemon vs Jynx to get your revenge killer in, because oh look, it just used Substitute and killed your death fodder, now you have to deal with Jynx behind a sub without Sleep Clause activated !!

Anyway suspect Jynx pls.

Also don't suspect Swagger its not broken on every single Pokemon that gets it, just arguably Liepard, so if you really think its a problem than suspect Liepard, but it shouldn't be an issue either way.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Jynx makes very hard to use slow mons on balance / bulky off teams mostly with mono attacking set, with Sleep Clause w/o be active is a pain like i mentioned on my post with the Misdreavus example. Also, true counter of mono attacking set are super hard to fitt in a no-stall team such Munchlax, Flareon, Regice or Bronzor. The only that comes to mind that is easy to fit is Metang and Klang the first Metang is good because resist ice beam, good bulk, meteor smash + a priority super effective against Jynx, also is recommended on this Metang Sleep Talk to counter much better Jynx the problem that is very dedicated to counter Jynx when many others mons can setupp or can get an big advantage against Metang or Klang like Charizard, Samurott, Ludicolo, Eelektross, Carracosta and another stuff.

A set that i wanna mention about Jynx that breaks stall is LK / Focus Blast / Nasty Plot / Ice Beam. A set mixed between all out attacker and mono attacking set, with Nasty Plot and a better coverage than the mono attacker set, this set breaks cores like Regice + mixed Alomomola on stall that aparently should have no problems with Jynx.

 

[Fuzznip]

Just saying but Metang is definitely not just used for Jynx. In fact, it still had pretty decent usage even before Jynx came in the meta just because its typing and bulk lets it check like all normal and flying type attackers too such as Kanga or Braviary. And in every single meta, you do have to prepare for every single threat out there regardless of whether the threat is as good as Jynx or not. People make what you may consider gimmick, but what I consider adapting, sets all the time. It's not like spdef eggy cant do anything else outside of being a lure for jynx, it still does its job pretty well and just as effectively. People always use "gimmick" sets all the time to deal with certain pokemon such as running Foul Play on Electrode, HP Grass on Rotom-S, Stone Edge on Gurdurr for Scolipede, and in OU, HP Ice on stufff like Terrakion for lando-T even exists, and the thig is no different for dealing with Jynx.

I think I'm going to have to disagree with this. People don't use Metang to check Normals and Flyings, this is just an added benefit to using Metang as a Jynx answer. Between its lack of Leftovers and weak power when investing in defenes, it is significantly outclassed by the likes of Carracosta, Golem, and Regirock. You cannot tell me that you use Metang to check Normals and Flyings because I highly doubt that; you use it for the purpose of dealing with Jynx.

I realize that people have to prepare for every single threat in every single meta, but the difference between NU and the other tiers is that Jynx has very specific checks and counters as we've seen being mentioned already. In OU for example, you often never find yourself having to specifically use a niche Pokemon to deal with a powerful threat like Terrakion or Gyarados because they don't have that offensive, controlling presence that Jynx boasts.

I will never consider specially defensive Exeggutor with Wood Hammer an adaptation to the metagame. You are sacrificing its true potential for its gimmick approach to dealing with Jynx. Yeah, ok, it can scare other special attackers too, but again, it is primarily being used to catch unsuspecting Jynx off-guard. People are racking their brains to find Jynx answers which makes the metagame very unhealthy in my opinion.

And yes, people do use gimmick movesets to deal with certain Pokemon like you said, but those Pokemon (Golurk, Scolipede, etc) actually have decent counters. It can be cool to take them out without actually using their counters, but it's a different story with Jynx as I and others have said time and time again.

As far as I'm concerned, Jynx is ban-worthy.

 

[Punchshroom]

Basically what I've said in my post, especially the comparison between Jynx's and Scolipede's impact. Jynx does not promote 'innovation' in terms of dealing with her, Jynx allows obscure pokemon and moves to see use where they otherwise wouldn't have. I don't pack Rock Blast on my Garbo just to deal with Scolipede (can break Subs and deter Armaldo somewhat), but can you say the same about things like Sleep Talk Metang, Pursuit Tauros, or again, Gyro Ball Wartortle? Now I know some of these moves do have uses outside of checking Jynx (Metang soaking up Sleep Powder, Tauros KOing Kadabra and Haunter), but can you honestly say you'd still run these moves, or even certain pokemon like Hypno and Grumpig who see little use, or Bronzor and Wormadam-T who otherwise wouldn't see the light of day, if it weren't for Jynx?

 

[Annoyer]

"I think I'm going to have to disagree with this. People don't use Metang to check Normals and Flyings, this is just an added benefit to using Metang as a Jynx answer. Between its lack of Leftovers and weak power when investing in defenes, it is significantly outclassed by the likes of Carracosta, Golem, and Regirock. You cannot tell me that you use Metang to check Normals and Flyings because I highly doubt that; you use it for the purpose of dealing with Jynx."

No, people have been using Metang before Jynx was brought into the meta (ex. it was used a bit in even some SPL matches) and people will still use it even after if Jynx gets banned. It was used mainly because it could check Normals, Flyings, and Psychics in one team slot to get rocks up. Can Carracosta, Golem, or Regirock check Psychic-types such as Musharna? No, they can't. Does Specially Defensive Exeggutor really hamper its ability to counter what its supposed to such as Alomomola, Tangela, or tank an Ice Beam from Rott, Ludicolo, and now Jynx? I'm not saying its better than the usual lumrest eggy but you have to make some sacrifice to deal with big threats in the meta, and thats not even a big sacrifice.

I just wanted to touch on that stuff about Metang because you're seriously underestimating it.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Metang just was good on the before metagame but now is where really shines, people should use Metang now and before for sure, but using Sleep Talk Metang w/ Rest is just very dedicated to check only Jynx and some Exeggutor, no one should use this move in a metagame w/o Jynx since is deadweight and is only dedicated for her.

The rest of mentions are dumb (SpD Exe Wood Hammer and Gyro Ball Wartortle)

252 SpA Life Orb Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Exeggutor: 351-413 (89.08 - 104.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Anyways, LO Jynx w/ Stealth Rock kills SpD Exeggutor a set where Exeggutor hits very weak (only 226 atk) and only hits strong to Jynx because the awful Def stat and losing health on the attack because the recoil, so i dont see the point to use this awful set SpD Exeggutor with Wood Hammer when just many Jynx kills this very dedicated set and outside of this is totally not worthy, at least i can regard a SpD Exeggutor set but attacking on SpA side not on Physical Side also when just Exeggutor can hits to physical defensive thanks to Psyshock. Physical atk only worth vs Jynx which just kill you many times.

 

[Lolk]

Well whatever opinion you have on Metang, you cannot deny that now that Jynx is in the tier, it has gotten a heck of a lot better. People have even been arguing S rank for it. In fact, we had to redo the entire Viability ranking thread mostly because of the last dropdowns, Gardevoir is the biggest example plummeting to B rank from S rank. But in general, it was as if the entire meta had changed itself. Now Scoli and Ape had a contribution to this but imo Jynx is the main culprit. Like I mentioned earlier, new mons and sets need to be used to fix this problem, but even with these changes, Jynx can certainly be handled. The fact that Jynx needs to specifically be handled in the first place does prove that Jynx needs to be suspected, but just because it can be handled doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned. Competitive pokemon is for fun, and if, in your opinion, taking Jynx out make the tier less tense, then vote for a ban. I personally like the new diversity Jynx has brought to the tier (the only poke really overshadowed by her is Garde) and would have to be pretty convinced that the meta is losing its fun.

 

[Django]

Agree with the above, but you still need to change the moveset Metang runs to beat Jynx. You need Sleep Talk at the very least, possibly even Rest, and Metang already has 4MSS. Stealth Rock and Meteor Mash are pretty much guaranteed to be on the set...then what do you use as a last move? Toxic is fine but leaves you with horrendous coverage issues and massive set up bait for a whole slew of threats (Klang!!). Or you can run Earthquake and end up losing to Musharna etc. If you run both Rest and Sleep Talk Metang seriously becomes just a sitting duck.

This is also completely ignoring the fact that Metang is not the easiest Pokemon to fit onto a team. Type wise sure it fits onto a lot of teams, but in terms of the opportunity it gives to opposing teams it's something that cannot just be thrown on without a care in the world. It's so easy to switch in on Metang with a number of dangerous sweepers such as Charizard, Samurott, Ludicolo, hell even shit like Arbok can set up on it, and all this is compounded by the fact it's going to likely be hit by Lovely Kiss and thus becomes even easier to switch in on.

Edit: Something else I forgot to mention is you pretty much have to run SpD Metang to deal with LO Jynx don't you? Otherwise with any sort of previous damage you run the risk of getting 2HKOed by Focus Blast as you switch in. Don't get me wrong the SpD set is great for dealing with Jynx, but the sets people previously ran we're almost exclusively investing in Attack (people who were good I mean), which meant Metang was actually difficult to switch into while using Meteor Mash. Without this extra investment it becomes seriously easy for stuff like Samurott to switch in, whereas before it had to think about taking SR damage as well as 25%+ from Meteor Mash.

Anyway, Metang is a decent Jynx check yes. Decent. Check. We're not talking hard counters here, since Metang lacks any recovery and the bullshit nature of sleep in gen 5 makes it nearly impossible to straight up counter things with sleep moves. So i'm curious, what else are people using to check / beat Jynx? Revenge killers exist sure, but literally everything in the game can be revenge killed, and Jynx even fucks with that by Substitute sets existing. I want to know what other viable and reliable Pokemon exist to deal with it, and are actually capable of switching into Jynx, since that is the main problem I currently see with it.

The other thing I want to know about is this: How do you deal with the effect Jynx has on Pokemon like Braviary, who were top tier Pokemon previously but now can be seen as a liability due to Jynx. Do you just not use them? Run Metang all the time? Suck it up and sacrifice something everytime Jynx comes in?

 

[ebeast]

Wiitle has the right idea here; people are not running those sets because they NEED to, but because they WANT to. Gyro Ball Wartortle to me doesn't even sound like someone going out of their way to beat Jynx, more like typical ladder player behavior of just picking random moves for the hell of it. (OMG Wartortle is slow better use Gyro Ball for my 150 BP move!!1!1!!) And just saying, if Wartortle wants to prevent Jynx from switching in for free it has Seismic Toss and Toxic to hit it. (Both natural options and Wartortle should be almost exclusively on stall anyways, so what's the problem even if it can't touch it?) It seems like most of the ladder doesn't know that most the top threats exist, I could go right now and 6-0 someone with Sawk or Musharna because the ladder is so unbelievably bad and so easy to take advantage of.

And about SpD Eggy with Wood Hammer, that set is not bad at all. FLCL was the one who made the set, and he wasn't using it because he needed to. He had other ways to beat Jynx on his team, but the reason he used that particular set was because it's a really good partner for Carracosta. Lum + Harvest with Sleep Powder / Rest / Wood Hammer / Psychic completely beats all Carracosta counters (Seismitoad, Tangela, Alomomola), takes on Waters better than the typical LumRest, and has the added bonus of being able to lure and KO Scarf Jynx. (Which removing would give Carracosta complete reign to sweep once it gets up a Shell Smash)

RestTalk Metang though is pretty bad, but Metang itself is not. RestTalk is just a huge waste of Metang's potential and the standard SR/Mash/Toxic/Bullet Punch set does everything better. Metang does not need RestTalk to take on Jynx at all and just seems like people who don't know how to handle Jynx making a poor attempt at it. Bronzor itself being used outside of stall is a bad idea, but on stall it is actually a pretty good asset as it beats a ton of threats and can be pretty decent CM user with TSpikes up.

Now we're done talking about this "Jynx making people use gimmick sets" talk and we can talk about what actually matters. :)!

 

[ryan]

Basically what I've said in my post, especially the comparison between Jynx's and Scolipede's impact. Jynx does not promote 'innovation' in terms of dealing with her, Jynx allows obscure pokemon and moves to see use where they otherwise wouldn't have. I don't pack Rock Blast on my Garbo just to deal with Scolipede (can break Subs and deter Armaldo somewhat), but can you say the same about things like Sleep Talk Metang, Pursuit Tauros, or again, Gyro Ball Wartortle? Now I know some of these moves do have uses outside of checking Jynx (Metang soaking up Sleep Powder, Tauros KOing Kadabra and Haunter), but can you honestly say you'd still run these moves, or even certain pokemon like Hypno and Grumpig who see little use, or Bronzor and Wormadam-T who otherwise wouldn't see the light of day, if it weren't for Jynx?

The point about Gyro Ball Wartortle is taking an isolated example of someone using an innovative set to deal with Jynx. Gyro Ball Wartortle is not the only way to defeat Jynx, but the user of it decided to get creative in teambuiling, likely because he wanted to use something with Rapid Spin on his team that could still beat Jynx. If you are looking for a Rapid Spin user that defeats Jynx every time, good luck finding much else. Even specially defensive Torkoal can't switch in with Rocks up and generally can't switch in without them up either.

252 SpAtk Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Torkoal (+SpDef) : 46.22% - 54.07% (2-3 hits to KO)

Would I still run Pursuit on Tauros if Jynx was not present in the metagame? Only if my team had a massive weakness to frail Ghost- and Psychic-types, which they typically do not. Would I still run Sleep Talk on Metang? Only if I needed a sleep absorber on my team. Are either of these points relevant? Not really. This is another example of people adapting to the new metagame. These Pokemon would still be viable without Jynx in the tier, and both of them were used before it was released in NU. The only difference is that people altered the sets to better prepare for new threats. I would still consider using Hypno or Grumpig because they are both really cool Pokemon with interesting niches—Hypno is one of the only viable Psychic-types in NU that can pass a Wish, and Grumpig has the rare Thick Fat to add to its few resistances. I still don't run Bronzor or Wormadam-T because I think they pretty much suck. On top of that, neither of those Pokemon are shining examples, as both of them are still incredibly rare in the metagame.

[16:40] <+TIBot> Bronzor: #237 in NU | Usage: 0.07703% | Raw count: 169 | Weight: 0.519214948926
[16:40] <+TIBot> Wormadam-Trash: #160 in NU | Usage: 0.61310% | Raw count: 1,261 | Weight: 0.553901466891

If these Pokemon were seeing even a full percent usage, I might be more inclined to agree with you that Jynx is overcentralizing to the point where people are forced to use otherwise entirely outclassed Pokemon (even despite what I've heard about Bronzor being decent on stall). But they are still hardly ever used.

Well whatever opinion you have on Metang, you cannot deny that now that Jynx is in the tier, it has gotten a heck of a lot better. People have even been arguing S rank for it. In fact, we had to redo the entire Viability ranking thread mostly because of the last dropdowns, Gardevoir is the biggest example plummeting to B rank from S rank. But in general, it was as if the entire meta had changed itself. Now Scoli and Ape had a contribution to this but imo Jynx is the main culprit. Like I mentioned earlier, new mons and sets need to be used to fix this problem, but even with these changes, Jynx can certainly be handled. The fact that Jynx needs to specifically be handled in the first place does prove that Jynx needs to be suspected, but just because it can be handled doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned. Competitive pokemon is for fun, and if, in your opinion, taking Jynx out make the tier less tense, then vote for a ban. I personally like the new diversity Jynx has brought to the tier (the only poke really overshadowed by her is Garde) and would have to be pretty convinced that the meta is losing its fun.

Just throwing it out here that the viability rankings needed a pretty big revamp anyways, as it was about a month into stage 9 (correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is how I remember it) and a lot of the old rankings were from hail meta.

Anyways, what it comes down to is that every time the tiers change and we see new threats drop to NU, old teams are going to need altered or completely scrapped. I still have an old team that I used during hail meta that does not account for the changes we've seen in the tier since then. When hail was around, Duosion outshined Musharna thanks to its access to Recover and Magic Guard and Piloswine outshined many other Stealth Rock setters thanks to Thick Fat. In this same way, Jynx now outshines Gardevoir, Metang now outshines many other Stealth Rock users, and Earthquake on Seismitoad (which also hits other Pokemon—Regice, Roselia, etc—harder) now outshines Earth Power.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Grumpig and Hypno are very dedicated to stall teams, for this teams i think that they are cool, Grumpig can check every set from Jynx so is nice to have a true counter while that actually can check another new popular things very well like Special Zard, problem is that lacks to reliable recovery and needs run Rest + Sleep Talk. On the other side, Hypno can counter only no-Nasty Plot versions which wrecks him with Nasty Plot + Ice Beam, at least Hypno can support the rest of your stall team not like Grumpig that in terms to support is deadweight. Also mention that they both are susceptible to Pursuit support from another partner like on my rmt that i was using Skuntank Lum paired with Jynx. You're gonna use some worst walls than the wall that you should to use initially like Audino or Lickilicky over Hypno, so in the better case you're gonna deal pretty well against Jynx but now you're gonna be more weak / susceptible against another stuff. This is like using Resttalker Gyarados to deal with Landorus-I on BW OU2 in the past, in the long term isnt the best option so far.

SpD Wood Hammer Exeggutor can be considered a lure to Jynx (badly) on the switch when the min damage is 68% or 89% depending on the set in 1 vs 1, this is just an example that how you need a bad twist in a set to try to deal with Jynx. Anyways, against Jynx on the switch you can just uses a strong Leaf Storm, Sleep Powder or Sunny day + Hp Fire / Solar Beam. Wood Hammer + SpD Exe has 0.1% utility against another stuff no called Jynx.

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 331-390 (122.14 - 143.91%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Plus]

Adapting to pokemon doesn't necessarily make them overpowered, and you see many instances in which pokemon that aren't broken still have a prominent effect on the metagame of which they preside. Off the top of my head, I think Scizor is a perfect example of something that isn't broken but is a centralizing force in OU. For NU, pokemon like Golurk make you use pokemon that attempt to tank hits from it and perform other niches, a perfect example being Alomomola being a wishpasser and a good response to Golurk as well as other physical threats like Scarfape or Sawk.

But then there are blatantly overpowered pokemon where adapting to threats means using something very specialized and is unhealthy for the metagame because it wastes a slot on your team because its main niche is simply that -- to check one or two prominent threats that define the metagame itself. I think icecream's example of Darkrai and Sleep Talk Heracross is a perfect example of this -- a pokemon whose main niche is to beat an overpowered threat. But by no means is Heracross dead weight; it has respectable stats, good STAB moves, and a Guts Sleep Talk can hurt a lot.

Then again, where do we draw the line between intelligently adapting to threats and flat out slapping something dumb on a team because you're weak to it. I don't want to go in depth about Metang because I feel this discussion should pertain to Jynx alone, but I will give my input on this. A healthy metagame should promote diversity in the sense that it allows you to use pokemon and styles that are to execute a strategy, rather defend against a strategy.

Even with stall teams whose purpose is to defend, that itself is the strategy of which to be executed. If you need a pokemon to cover Jynx that completely goes against the idea of your team, then I think we have a problem here. If you need a pokemon to cover Jynx that still compliments the idea of your team, I think it's fine, personally. The pokemon that beat Jynx are either very fast or have specialized resistances against its attacks. Then again, the pokemon who have specialized resistances against its attacks seem to be rather scarce. I find it easier to run offense in a Jynx metagame because it's easier to just outspeed and kill, as it leaves me less vulnerable to attacks afterwards.

The implications of a Jynx-less metagame are rather interesting to say the least. Maybe some underused strategies will arise with the lack of Jynx. I'm looking at the NU stats and see a large amount of offense and balance, but a small amount of stall. I don't know how accurate these statistics are, but from my experience on the ladder, it's not that far off. We should really be talking about the effect of a Jynx-less metagame on NU as opposed to how to adapt to it, because we WILL be playing a Jynx-less metagame if this thing is to be banned.

 

[Lolk]

Some things to specify about what would probably happen with Jynx's absense:

• The lessening importance of the base 95 scarf speed tier. Not every team is going to have a Primeape on them. We will probably begin to see more Rotom-S, Rotom-F, even more Gardevoirs, etc. This will really diversify the tier as many more Scarfers become more viable.
• Less worry about sleep. Before Jynx, sleep was not common in NU. Sleep Powder users are much more easy to get around than Lovely Kiss. All of my viable teams this meta have had a random Lum Berry on a mon just for that kill.
• Kacaw! Imo flying-types had it hard this meta with scarf Jynx being popular with Smogon users. If she leaves, Metang will be used less, scarf Garde will take her place, and Scolipede/Primeape will be used even more, and my next team will be based around a Swellow :)
• More Stall. With such annoying coverage that picks off almost every defensive mon in NU, it is no shocker that if she leaves, defensive teams will thrive better, because they dont have to waste moveslots/teamslots preparing for this one threat.
• Loss of cool mons. If Skuntank didnt have a reason to be on your team now, when the biggest Psychic-type threat leaves NU it will lose even more love. Certain mons that became popular this meta like Tauros, Floatzel, and Sneasel will all lose their trainer's appreciation when they adapt to the new meta.
• Loss of Style. With no jynx, NU loses its fashion.

 

[Infernis]

I don't know about Skuntank leaving; it's still one of the best threats against Musharna, Gardevoir, Golurk, and others.

I'd like to add a silly 'mon I've used to check Jynx to the pile: Choice Scarf Swellow with Return/Brave Bird. Revenge something that's weakened , wait for the Jynx to come in, and whapow! :eek: (No, it's not extraordinarily good asides from that.)

There's been a lot of discussion about how Jynx encourages creative adaptation, like wood hammer Exeggutor, Sleep Talk Metang, et cetera. However, I think that it's worth noting that the loss of Jynx will encourage more creative teams as well. Think about the things that Jynx can be used to check:

Birds
Sawk/Primeape/Gurdurr
Golurk
Dragons
Carracosta
Seismitoad/Samurott with energy ball
Charizard
Serperior
Non-scarf Tauros (if Focus Blast hits)
Regirock
75% chance for almost anything with Lovely Kiss

Et cetera, et cetera. A lot of these are considered to be very dangerous threats, and there is a Jynx set for each of them. (The same set can take out a great many.) It is incredibly easy to slap Jynx onto roughly any team, since you will run into something that it checks in practically every match. Without that easy option, I think that some lesser used 'mons could rise to the challenge. Scarf Rotom-F can beat out the birds, Musharna can cover the fighting types, offensive Metang can go balls-to-the-walls against Carracosta, and so forth. Sure, some Pokemon exclusively designed to beat Jynx will fall off a bit, or be used to check Gardevoir instead, but others will gain in usage as well. After all, something has to go in that slot Jynx used to fill.

I'm still on the fence about banning it, but I look forward to the suspect test.

EDIT: I dunno about loss of style either. NU has so many mustaches. Kadabra, Kricketune, Samurott, Swalot, Whiscash, Probopass, Stoutland, Beartic...

 

[Raseri]

This is not a metang thread. I deleted the entire tangent about the viability of metang. It plays a part of making Jynx not insane, but you guys were basically turning this into a metang thread.

Anyways expect a post on banning philosophy and why we should not ban Jynx tomorrow.

 

[Punchshroom]

We need to look at Jynx and see what she brought to the metagame, and thus what would be lost/gained if she left.

• When Jynx came into NU, she introduced our first reliable Ice attacker, who boasts good speed, accuracy and most importantly coverage, which I've been dying to see/have for ages.
• She has a 75% accurate sleep move to go with that good speed. Now that isn't actually new to NU, Jumpluff also boasted a very fast sleeping move and can set up like Jynx does (be it Swords Dance or SubSeed), or Haunter with the exact same offensive stats as Jynx and has Hypnosis (I know it's less accurate, but still). However, Jynx, unlike Jumpluff and Haunter, can afford mono-STAB and still have great/better coverage than the aforementioned two's dual STABs: Ice is that good. She can also hit hard right off the bat unlike Jumpluff, as well as boost unlike Haunter, allowing her to threaten a wider variety of pokemon.
• Jynx (and to a much lesser extent Primeape) set a speed tier to beat: base 95. This meant pokemon slower than that, such as Skuntank, Sawk, Gardevoir, Braviary, and the Rotoms, who met the previous standard of 80+ base speed, have lost quite a bit of their luster.
• Jynx pressures every Water-type in the tier, ensuring they have to play more carefully or get punished. Now I know Jynx gets absolutely wrecked by predicted moves, but that's the thing: you have to predict. Most other Water-immune pokemon, notably defensive Seismitoad, are often slower than the Water-type attackers, meaning the likes of Samurott and Ludicolo do not have to predict much at all, and can just threaten with super effective strikes, thus Water moves can still be spammed with relative ease. Jynx isn't like that: if she switches in on your Water move, you're probably in for a world of hurt because of her speed and highly disruptive movepool. Scarf Jynx also makes the best check for Shell Smash Carracosta due to the Aqua Jet immunity other Scarfers do not boast, so all in all reducing the 'spammability' of Water moves is a positive influence for the tier.
• In relation with a previously mentioned point, since 95 speed is the speed to beat, pokemon that can outpace this tier have been given greater importance than before. The likes of Swanna, Charizard, the Simis, Liepard, Tauros, Zebstrika and Swellow have become more recognized in this meta where previously they were less notable due to their speed being 'excessive' and unnecessary, and shunned because of their lesser bulk compared to slower (while still fast enough) pokemon. In other words, the meta has now favored faster but frailer offense when compared to the previously bulkier and slower tier.

Would Jynx's departure mean throwing away these changes as well? Is this what we really want? Would the meta really be better off without Jynx's influence?

Also on the subject of any pro-Swagger banners, what's the point of doing so? All this will lead to is simply forcing these Liepard misusers to take it up to higher tiers, and if the players are going to be anything like you it'll lead to a slow aggravating chain of 'ban in RU, ban in UU' or whatever that'll take too long to resolve and almost everyone will complain (raise a shit-storm) at some point about why we unleashed this monstrosity onto them. I mean it's not like NU itself doesn't have loads of ways (ex: LUM BERRY, available to almost every poke) to check Liepard, discounting the 50%/75% chance that Liepard gets screwed over turn 1 (If you Choice-lock yourself into Psychic while Liepard is around, that's your fault).

Edit: Well I suppose I was making a rather weird claim, I was under the impression that if NU does decide to go through with the ban, players from upper tiers would be instigated to do the same, perhaps even using NU as an example or something, however I'm not too familiar with the whole banning process to proclaim all of this to be even remotely accurate. Not that I support the ban, Liepard is one of the easiest things for me to deal with in the hands of a noob. (If used by an experienced player, Liepard is something else entirely D: )

 

[ryan]

Also on the subject of any pro-Swagger banners, what's the point of doing so? All this will lead to is simply forcing these Liepard misusers to take it up to higher tiers, and if the players are going to be anything like you it'll lead to a slow aggravating chain of 'ban in RU, ban in UU' or whatever that'll take too long to resolve and almost everyone will complain (raise a shit-storm) at some point about why we unleashed this monstrosity onto them. I mean it's not like NU itself doesn't have loads of ways to check Liepard, discounting the 50%/75% chance that Liepard gets screwed over turn 1 (If you Choice-lock yourself into Psychic while Liepard is around, that's your fault).

The entire argument that once we ban Liepard (or Swagger or whatever), other tiers will be forced to do the same is assuming something to be true which will almost certainly not be the case. On top of that, you're pretty much saying that the unintended consequences of banning Liepard (i.e. RU banning it, UU banning it, etc) are less desirable than a ban would be. The purpose of banning things is that they are too powerful for the metagame, and abstaining from a ban simply because other tiers would be "forced to ban it as well" is a terrible reason.

At this point, I don't think that Liepard or any combination of moves on the popular Swagger + Foul Play set should be banned. I realize that they are annoying and arguably uncompetitive, but I don't see what we achieve by banning it. Would playing on the ladder be more fun? Yeah, probably. But we'd be banning it at the cost of ignoring that there do exist checks and counters to it: Gurdurr, Lickilicky, most Ground-types such as Piloswine and Golem (which both have multi-hit moves), Klang (seriously takes nearly no damage from confusion or Foul Play and will eventually hit with Gear Grind, especially if it's RestTalk), and of course bulky walls in general. It's not like these Pokemon are tailoring their sets to beat Liepard or being used strictly because Liepard is in the tier. They are good with or without it. On top of this, other arguably similar bans in the past had key differences between a possible ban of Liepard or Swagger. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak were entirely passive, which means that those Pokemon that have these abilities could function normally with the constant added bonus of increased evasion (and it didn't even take a moveslot to use it). Evasion moves, while not passive, affected everything on the opponent's team from the moment that you first click Minimize or Double Team. Unlike these previous bans, when combating Swagger you ultimately decide upon being confused whether or not you want to take the risk of hitting yourself and losing a turn.

I get it guys. Liepard is an annoying Pokemon. Last night on IRC, I explained my feelings about Jynx, and I think they apply here as well. Liepard is a Pokemon that I would punch if I saw it irl, but it's not a Pokemon I would vote to ban.

 

[Fusxfaranto]

Liepard, especially compared to Jynx, is not at all worth suspecting (or anything involving Swagger, for that matter). The Swagger/Substitute/Foul Play strategy is, of course, extremely obnoxious to play against when it works, but it doesn't always work. In fact, one on one, it has less than even odds of doing anything, given Swagger's imperfect accuracy. Of course, this can be remediated with good play, but that brings me to my next point: how often do you see good players using Swaggerpard (on non-joke teams)? Not very often. It's dead weight if you're even a little unlucky, and even when it works, it's not really a good team player, offering very little defensive or offensive synergy with anything.

Since it's clearly not broken, the argument that is often fallen back upon is that it's "uncompetitive". Yeah sure, it's uncompetitive; it's not good. Jynx, Scolipede, Samurott, and the like are competitive. Poliwag, Weedle, and Sunkern aren't. If an entirely luck-based strategy works, it's competitive. They generally don't. Pokemon is largely about luck management: Fire Blast vs Flamethrower, Focus Blast vs Hidden Power Fighting, Hydro Pump vs Surf, etc. Confusion relies on getting even luckier than the riskiest of (viable) attacking moves, so good players don't rely on it working. Sometimes bad players do, but that only cements their status further.

 

[Fuzznip]

It's not even Liepard that is overpowered, it's just SwaggerPlay. I can use this strategy in any tier and succeed solely due to the hax. Like, I used SwaggerPlay Spiritomb in RU and it was so much fun, and even got creamed by SwaggerPlay Uxie at one point. I get how Liepard having Prankster makes Swagger even better, but I'd consider having a priority Thunder Wave even more deadly than a priority Swagger, which may not even go your way at times. Thunder Wave is at least the least risky and most competitive option. Prankster Encore and Taunt are also two other moves that have far more utility than Swagger ever will.

Liepard shouldn't be suspected whatsoever for two reasons:

1) It's not its support options in Encore, Taunt, and Thunder Wave that make Liepard an overpowered threat. If it never had Swagger, it would be a bearable and competitive Pokemon.
2) Suspecting it because of SwaggerPlay will not solve anything. Liepard will just use this tactic in the higher tiers. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it sweeps a team of Ubers.

If anything, it's Swagger as a move that should be put in the spotlight. It's a stupid move that has no competitive merit, solely based on chance. What makes it even better and work more in your favour is the fact that pairing it with Thunder Wave/Stun Spore/etc, Substitute, and/or Foul Play is so easy to do and requires little to no effort. You always see these people saying "Liepard just 1-0'ed my whole team" only because of luck. I was even flabbergasted myself when, like I said before, a damn Uxie with Substitute/Swagger/Foul Play/Thunder Wave sweeped my entire team, it was an absolute train-wreck.

Again, Liepard is a sweet Pokemon that has way better things to do outside of Swagger. I'll be disappointed if it was suspected just because of that. Swagger is the culprit. Swagger is the bane of many competitive player's existence. I don't know if it should be banned, since talk about banning moves was brought up in other places, but it should be the one being frowned upon from a competitive standpoint.

 

[Fusxfaranto]

If anything, it's Swagger as a move that should be put in the spotlight. It's a stupid move that has no competitive merit, solely based on chance. What makes it even better and work more in your favour is the fact that pairing it with Thunder Wave/Stun Spore/etc, Substitute, and/or Foul Play is so easy to do and requires little to no effort. You always see these people saying "Liepard just 1-0'ed my whole team" only because of luck. I was even flabbergasted myself when, like I said before, a damn Uxie with Substitute/Swagger/Foul Play/Thunder Wave sweeped my entire team, it was an absolute train-wreck.

This here is the attitude that I really don't like. "Oh, it relies on luck, it should be banned." Like it or not, luck is a huge component of Pokemon. If it's effective, it's effective, and if it's not, it's not, regardless of whether it crosses some arbitrary barrier of reliance on luck. Hell, if we're going to ban things because they work well if you're lucky, we might as well ban sleep; the amount of turns sleep lasts can be a lot more pivotal than confusion, not to mention the very low accuracy that sleep moves tend to have. But of course, it'd be pretty silly to just ban sleep because we don't like it or its reliance on luck, and the same applies to Swagger.

 

[Fuzznip]

This here is the attitude that I really don't like. "Oh, it relies on luck, it should be banned." Like it or not, luck is a huge component of Pokemon. If it's effective, it's effective, and if it's not, it's not, regardless of whether it crosses some arbitrary barrier of reliance on luck. Hell, if we're going to ban things because they work well if you're lucky, we might as well ban sleep; the amount of turns sleep lasts can be a lot more pivotal than confusion, not to mention the very low accuracy that sleep moves tend to have. But of course, it'd be pretty silly to just ban sleep because we don't like it or its reliance on luck, and the same applies to Swagger.

I never stated that it should be banned. I simply said that it's the reason why Liepard is considered as such a broken mon, even though it itself is not. It's also the reason why unskilled and uncompetitive players actually have the ability to win via Swagger hax, which is why this whole "ban Swagger" is such a controversial issue. Pokemon is all about luck, I'm not going to deny that; however, I'd consider Swagger to be a lot different than something like sleep. Swagger itself has pretty much become a playstyle of choice and just a heavily frowned upon strategy from a competitive standpoint. Sleep is another story because it's not really an uncompetitive strategy. It doesn't rely on luck to the sheer extent that is Swagger. I'm not talking solely about Swagger being luck-based, it's an uncompetitive strategy that is luck-based and is apparently effective.

If we are trying to build the most competitive metagame possible, then Swagger certainly does have to be analyzed as one of the primary reasons competitive play can be easily faltered. I'm not one to judge whether this is something to actually suspect, but it is concerning in my opinion.