Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Shadow Tag Suspect Test - Stuck In The Middle With You

[boo836]

MM and others, stop redefining uncompetitive to fit your own uses. It's a loaded argument that has nothing to actually do with uncompetitiveness. Uncompetitive is not defined anywhere as eliminating the feasibility of certain core elements of the game; that's called a controlling strategy. Uncompetitive is a term that's universal across all metagames AND other games, being a strategy which leads to a win condition achieved without skill or by matchup (in other words, avoiding fair competition). In matters of business, we consider protectionism uncompetitive on the global scale. Similarly, no one considers the roulette to be competitive. Luck and outside forces should not be determining outcomes if a game is to be competitive. Does Shadow Tag doesn't create win conditions without skill. it requires maneuvering.
If you're going to say that removing or limiting feasibility of core mechanics is uncompetitive, we might as well ban freaking zugzwang from chess because it limits the feasibility of moving a piece. If shadow tag is uncompetitive, we should be able to find Gothita, Wynaut and others as similarly being able to set up win conditions with no skill whatsoever. If it's just Gothitelle and Mgar, then the issue isn't being uncompetitive but being broken. I personally think that Goth and MGar are BROKEN, but NOT uncompetitive, as they clearly do not fit into the definition of uncompetitive.

Now, why's that? It's because the characteristics of Mega Gengar and Gothitelle are what cause the issues that people have. Gothitelle's got the bulk to turn itself into a win condition against certain frail pokemon, assuming you've failed to prepare for it. On the opposite end sits Mega Gengar, which tries to turn the tables by eliminating problematic Pokémon. They centralize the metagame to perhaps require the use of a Pursuit user, or to always maintain offensive pressure and not give room to trap, but that's dealing with brokenness. And while I would agree that getting rid of M gar and Gothitelle would be better for the metagame, it's dishonest to do so under the guise of uncompetitiveness.

Note to fireburn: Undeleted this post since c allstar quotes it ~MM2

 

[C AllStar]

MM and others, stop redefining uncompetitive to fit your own uses. It's a loaded argument that has nothing to actually do with uncompetitiveness. Uncompetitive is not defined anywhere as eliminating the feasibility of certain core elements of the game; that's called a controlling strategy. Uncompetitive is a term that's universal across all metagames AND other games, being a strategy which leads to a win condition achieved without skill or by matchup (in other words, avoiding fair competition). In matters of business, we consider protectionism uncompetitive on the global scale. Similarly, no one considers the roulette to be competitive. Luck and outside forces should not be determining outcomes if a game is to be competitive. Does Shadow Tag doesn't create win conditions without skill. it requires maneuvering.
If you're going to say that removing or limiting feasibility of core mechanics is uncompetitive, we might as well ban freaking zugzwang from chess because it limits the feasibility of moving a piece. If shadow tag is uncompetitive, we should be able to find Gothita, Wynaut and others as similarly being able to set up win conditions with no skill whatsoever. If it's just Gothitelle and Mgar, then the issue isn't being uncompetitive but being broken. I personally think that Goth and MGar are BROKEN, but NOT uncompetitive, as they clearly do not fit into the definition of uncompetitive.

Now, why's that? It's because the characteristics of Mega Gengar and Gothitelle are what cause the issues that people have. Gothitelle's got the bulk to turn itself into a win condition against certain frail pokemon, assuming you've failed to prepare for it. On the opposite end sits Mega Gengar, which tries to turn the tables by eliminating problematic Pokémon. They centralize the metagame to perhaps require the use of a Pursuit user, or to always maintain offensive pressure and not give room to trap, but that's dealing with brokenness. And while I would agree that getting rid of M gar and Gothitelle would be better for the metagame, it's dishonest to do so under the guise of uncompetitiveness.

There is a reason that Confuse Ray is not banned but Swagger is. Swagger actually has a way to abuse which requires the user to have some knowledge to the move and the metagame. But just with the 'minimum skill level', worse players can beat better players with Swagger abuse which Confuse Ray can't due to the lack of attack boost. Shadow Tag is similar to Swagger in this sense that it requires a 'minimum skill level' to be abused. However, a worse player can defeat a better player once he has the basic knowledge to the metagame with Shadow Tag when he has a matchup advantage due to STag. Shadow Tag is certainly uncompetitive by your definition since it lets matchup as an outside force determines the outcome of the match.

You've clearly not read posts of other pro-banners when you say that STag can be prepared by packing a pursuit user. Whatever the pursuit trapper is, there are ways for the STag mons to escape from it (hp fire gar vs Mega Scizor, Sub vs everything but Spiritomb, WoW gar vs nearly everything etc). Every time you try to pursuit trap the STag poke you must pray that you have a positive matchup against it or you are basically screwed. Maintaining offensive pressure isn't even possible. As long as you are sending out something trappable you are simply risking 5050s and there is even some situations(e.g. burned 6% Dialga Roar) that cannot be prevented. There is no way to confidently prepare for it at all both from teambuilder and in games.

 

[boo836]

There is a reason that Confuse Ray is not banned but Swagger is. Swagger actually has a way to abuse which requires the user to have some knowledge to the move and the metagame. But just with the 'minimum skill level', worse players can beat better players with Swagger abuse which Confuse Ray can't due to the lack of attack boost. Shadow Tag is similar to Swagger in this sense that it requires a 'minimum skill level' to be abused. However, a worse player can defeat a better player once he has the basic knowledge to the metagame with Shadow Tag when he has a matchup advantage due to STag. Shadow Tag is certainly uncompetitive by your definition since it lets matchup as an outside force determines the outcome of the match.

You've clearly not read posts of other pro-banners when you say that STag can be prepared by packing a pursuit user. Whatever the pursuit trapper is, there are ways for the STag mons to escape from it (hp fire gar vs Mega Scizor, Sub vs everything but Spiritomb, WoW gar vs nearly everything etc). Every time you try to pursuit trap the STag poke you must pray that you have a positive matchup against it or you are basically screwed. Maintaining offensive pressure isn't even possible. As long as you are sending out something trappable you are simply risking 5050s and there is even some situations(e.g. burned 6% Dialga Roar) that cannot be prevented. There is no way to confidently prepare for it at all both from teambuilder and in games.

Sorry, I reposted before I saw your post. Thank you for actually taking the time to constructively participate in this discussion.

The matters between Swagger and Confuse Ray are different from the consequences of the luck involved. While I WOULD suggest that Confuse Ray could also be considered uncompetitive, that's rather a different argument for a different thread. Regardless, we can't say change the definition of uncompetitive simply because of Smogon's inconsistencies in eliminating uncompetitive aspects.

What outside force determines the outcome of the match, in the case of Shadow Tag? The only factors are solely based on the player's actions (especially the pressure and key movements in avoiding trapping) and team matchups. While it's true that Gothitelle and MGar can both defeat Pursuit trappers (Gothitelle not so much tho), they are exposed to the 50/50s of Sucker Punch vs Pursuit in some cases, scarfed users of the move, and much more. The mindgames involved are a factor solely dependent on the players, and not an actual form of luck. Pressure is completely possible. It's not like Mgar is always guaranteed a kill on everything and anything that's trappable. Making the revenge play will still detract from the opponent's momentum as they're either forced to switch or lose their trapper.

 

[C AllStar]

Sorry, I reposted before I saw your post. Thank you for actually taking the time to constructively participate in this discussion.

The matters between Swagger and Confuse Ray are different from the consequences of the luck involved. While I WOULD suggest that Confuse Ray could also be considered uncompetitive, that's rather a different argument for a different thread. Regardless, we can't say change the definition of uncompetitive simply because of Smogon's inconsistencies in eliminating uncompetitive aspects.

What outside force determines the outcome of the match, in the case of Shadow Tag? The only factors are solely based on the player's actions (especially the pressure and key movements in avoiding trapping) and team matchups. While it's true that Gothitelle and MGar can both defeat Pursuit trappers (Gothitelle not so much tho), they are exposed to the 50/50s of Sucker Punch vs Pursuit in some cases, scarfed users of the move, and much more. The mindgames involved are a factor solely dependent on the players, and not an actual form of luck. Pressure is completely possible. It's not like Mgar is always guaranteed a kill on everything and anything that's trappable. Making the revenge play will still detract from the opponent's momentum as they're either forced to switch or lose their trapper.

Uncompetitive stuffs do not need to reliably do their job to be uncompetitive. In fact, uncompetitive things are never reliable as from definition. The outside force in the case of Shadow Tag is team matchup. The cases you mentioned are not really realisitic seeing that no viable pokemon can learn Sucker + Pursuit other than lol Spiritomb and Honchkrow. There isn't any Pursuit user that can viably run scarf either as they are not outspeeding MegaGar even with that. Whether the Pursuit trappers can successfully trap doesn't depend on the players' decisions, but whether the 'specific set' of STag poke is prepared for the 'specific pursuit trapper'. The player will never have clue of what the opposing Pursuit trapper is using and sending in a Pursuit trapper is simply a gamble which's outcome is dependent on the team matchup. Maintaining offensive pressure seems possible until you find that your poke prone to STag can never use recovery or kill anything or risk being trapped by STag. STag prone pokes can only switch in and out to sponge attacks but never get a chance to recover, giving an unfair advantage to the STag user. This is not even counting specific situations like 6% burned Dialga Roar which will force the 1v1 matchup of STag. You claimed that strategies that leads to win condition by matchup is uncompetitive and avoids fair competition. This is exactly what STag does and why it is uncompetitive.

 

[alwayswimmin]

Sorry, I reposted before I saw your post. Thank you for actually taking the time to constructively participate in this discussion.

The matters between Swagger and Confuse Ray are different from the consequences of the luck involved. While I WOULD suggest that Confuse Ray could also be considered uncompetitive, that's rather a different argument for a different thread. Regardless, we can't say change the definition of uncompetitive simply because of Smogon's inconsistencies in eliminating uncompetitive aspects.

What outside force determines the outcome of the match, in the case of Shadow Tag? The only factors are solely based on the player's actions (especially the pressure and key movements in avoiding trapping) and team matchups. While it's true that Gothitelle and MGar can both defeat Pursuit trappers (Gothitelle not so much tho), they are exposed to the 50/50s of Sucker Punch vs Pursuit in some cases, scarfed users of the move, and much more. The mindgames involved are a factor solely dependent on the players, and not an actual form of luck. Pressure is completely possible. It's not like Mgar is always guaranteed a kill on everything and anything that's trappable. Making the revenge play will still detract from the opponent's momentum as they're either forced to switch or lose their trapper.

I disagree. Mindgames are luck, especially on an online game when you can't even see the opponent's reactions, etc. The only reason "mindgames" like rock-paper-scissor contests and poker tournaments are even a thing is because one is in actual physical contact with the person, and one could, if you will, "mindgame" the opponent and "get into his/her head." The fact that I did not physically flip a coin, or in the case of Pokemon use RNG, to decide whether I click Sucker Punch or Pursuit absolutely does not mean that it wasn't still a 50/50 game of chance I just played.

I've expressed concern in the Mega Gengar thread over the aggressive doubling associated with Shadow Tag and its luck factor. MM2 also has argued that Shadow Tag makes only the few turns before Shadow Tag comes into effect meaningful. This compression of the game into a few crucial turns before Shadow Tag ultimately invites ultra-aggressive plays, eliminating risk-reward analysis in each move. This is luck.

Of course, many like shrang don't like my interpretation of these 50/50s as uncompetitive, since luck inevitably will play a role in games. But even if this alone is not grounds for a ban, using 50/50s as an argument supporting pursuit-trapping as a viable counterplay simply doesn't hold much water.

(Also anything with base speed <= 70 will still get outsped by Mega Gengar even with a Scarf. This eliminates Scizor and Tyranitar, the only two pursuit trappers with utility in ubers outside of that role.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by C AllStar. I like his argument better as he actually does provide an "outside force" that you feel is necessary for something to be luck-based. I do hope my post, however, showed that something doesn't need to be external to luck-based.

EDIT2: As for your chess analogy, the difference is that chess is a combinatorial game with complete information available to both players, while Pokemon is not. I know my opponent's previous moves and all his possible future moves, and I can use this information to choose an appropriate move myself. Pokemon doesn't have this information present as both people click a move simultaneously. The difference between moves leading up to a zugzwang and moves leading up to Shadow Tag is one is in a game with complete information, so I know full well the consequences of my actions, while the other I have to guess what move my opponent clicked, where the consequences depend on something entirely out of my control. You might ask if Pokemon is so prediction-based, why isn't it just like rock-paper-scissors? That is because games like Pokemon or any card game have an element of risk vs. reward. We can make intelligent decisions with our moves, even though we don't know exactly the move the opponent made. By using risk vs. reward we can emulate, albeit not perfectly, the intellectual nature of chess.

 

[boo836]

Uncompetitive stuffs do not need to reliably do their job to be uncompetitive. In fact, uncompetitive things are never reliable as from definition. The outside force in the case of Shadow Tag is team matchup. The cases you mentioned are not really realisitic seeing that no viable pokemon can learn Sucker + Pursuit other than lol Spiritomb and Honchkrow. There isn't any Pursuit user that can viably run scarf either as they are not outspeeding MegaGar even with that. Whether the Pursuit trappers can successfully trap doesn't depend on the players' decisions, but whether the 'specific set' of STag poke is prepared for the 'specific pursuit trapper'. The player will never have clue of what the opposing Pursuit trapper is using and sending in a Pursuit trapper is simply a gamble which's outcome is dependent on the team matchup. Maintaining offensive pressure seems possible until you find that your poke prone to STag can never use recovery or kill anything or risk being trapped by STag. STag prone pokes can only switch in and out to sponge attacks but never get a chance to recover, giving an unfair advantage to the STag user. This is not even counting specific situations like 6% burned Dialga Roar which will force the 1v1 matchup of STag. You claimed that strategies that leads to win condition by matchup is uncompetitive and avoids fair competition. This is exactly what STag does and why it is uncompetitive.

Tbf other pokemon like Aegislash, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and more have similar ways of winning. Mgar might have ways around some of these, but you're forgetting that Mgar has to play perfectly in order to win. The STag prone Pokémon are not necessarily unable to be unable to provide offensive pressure as they can still either force mgar to take a hard hit or otherwise force the situation to be a 141.

I did not say that win conditions by matchup are uncompetitive, I said that win conditions that come about without the factors of team matchups/skill of players are uncompetitive.

 

[C AllStar]

Tbf other pokemon like Aegislash, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and more have similar ways of winning. Mgar might have ways around some of these, but you're forgetting that Mgar has to play perfectly in order to win. The STag prone Pokémon are not necessarily unable to be unable to provide offensive pressure as they can still either force mgar to take a hard hit or otherwise force the situation to be a 141.

I did not say that win conditions by matchup are uncompetitive, I said that win conditions that come about without the factors of team matchups/skill of players are uncompetitive.

Just WoW/Sub/Hp fire then win in the matchup, or lose the matchup if your STag poke isn't prepared for it. Mgar doesn't need to play perfectly do win as long as its set is prepared for the specific pursuit trapper. STag prone pokemon cannot hit the STag poke hard as they will be trapped if doing so (ok, not before MegaGar mega evolve but we're discussing STag as a whole). That means that the STag prone poke has to sponge hits and can't recover whenever it comes in while STag pokes doesn't even get hurt. This gives an unfair advantage to the STag user.

Mind that team matchup is not related to quality of teams. A team may be bad but it can still have good matchup against good teams such as counterteams being used in tournament matches or sniping in PO. Team quality consists of skill on teambuiding but team matchup is simply another kind of luck when it is impossible to prepare for everything well enough in a single team. People can argue that team matchup exists regardless of STag but it can't be denied that it is something which reduces skill from the game. We can't stop every luck factor in the game (e.g. Fire Blast burn rate, crit) without changing the mechanics of the game, which totally ruins the concept of competitive pokemon. However, we ban things that are intended to abuse luck and allow worse players to beat better players with it. This is the rationale behind OHKO Clause, Swagger Clause etc. Similarly, there is no way to make team matchup a non-factor without changing the mechanics of the game. However, Shadow Tag is something that is intended to exaggerate the issue of team matchup and allow worse players to beat better players with it. The matchup between STag poke and the STag target+Pursuit trapper creates and outside factor which determines the outcome of the match. This is what really makes STag uncompetitive and the major reason why it should be banned.

 

[boo836]

Team matchups aren't

I disagree. Mindgames are luck, especially on an online game when you can't even see the opponent's reactions, etc. The only reason "mindgames" like rock-paper-scissor contests and poker tournaments are even a thing is because one is in actual physical contact with the person, and one could, if you will, "mindgame" the opponent and "get into his/her head." The fact that I did not physically flip a coin, or in the case of Pokemon use RNG, to decide whether I click Sucker Punch or Pursuit absolutely does not mean that it wasn't still a 50/50 game of chance I just played.

I've expressed concern in the Mega Gengar thread over the aggressive doubling associated with Shadow Tag and its luck factor. MM2 also has argued that Shadow Tag makes only the few turns before Shadow Tag comes into effect meaningful. This compression of the game into a few crucial turns before Shadow Tag ultimately invites ultra-aggressive plays, eliminating risk-reward analysis in each move. This is luck.

Of course, many like shrang don't like my interpretation of these 50/50s as uncompetitive, since luck inevitably will play a role in games. But even if this alone is not grounds for a ban, using 50/50s as an argument supporting pursuit-trapping as a viable counterplay simply doesn't hold much water.

(Also anything with base speed <= 70 will still get outsped by Mega Gengar even with a Scarf. This eliminates Scizor and Tyranitar, the only two pursuit trappers with utility in ubers outside of that role.)

EDIT: Ninja'd by C AllStar. I like his argument better as he actually does provide an "outside force" that you feel is necessary for something to be luck-based. I do hope my post, however, showed that something doesn't need to be external to luck-based.

EDIT2: As for your chess analogy, the difference is that chess is a combinatorial game with complete information available to both players, while Pokemon is not. I know my opponent's previous moves and all his possible future moves, and I can use this information to choose an appropriate move myself. Pokemon doesn't have this information present as both people click a move simultaneously. The difference between moves leading up to a zugzwang and moves leading up to Shadow Tag is one is in a game with complete information, so I know full well the consequences of my actions, while the other I have to guess what move my opponent clicked, where the consequences depend on something entirely out of my control. You might ask if Pokemon is so prediction-based, why isn't it just like rock-paper-scissors? That is because games like Pokemon or any card game have an element of risk vs. reward. We can make intelligent decisions with our moves, even though we don't know exactly the move the opponent made. By using risk vs. reward we can emulate, albeit not perfectly, the intellectual nature of chess.

The Pursuit game has always been a matter of making decisions based off of your opponent's previous plays. The 50/50 scenario is only when you're blindly clicking buttons. We really need to differentiate between prediction and circumstance that isn't created by either player. One is the result of competitive play, the other is merely the result of the RNG saying so. Dunno about you, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to consider a component of competitive play as uncompetitive.

Mega Scizor and Tyranitar are both capable of surviving 4x hits and retaliating for the kill tho.

While we might not know our opponent's possible moves, we can still understand guess them from the team they have and the sets that have become pretty standard. Intelligent decision making is nonetheless part of playing against Shadow Tag, and it really isn't as if Shadow Tag prevents one from making said intelligent plays.

 

[shrang]

Man I was kind of enjoying the fact that I didn't have to respond to long-ass posts and therefore I could you know... revise for my exams.

I assumed replays would make things easier but I suppose not.

The issue here is you are stuck in a circular logic in which you assume that the only way to arrive at a scenario in which you are trapped is by being outplayed, therefore you were outplayed. There's of course an asterix attached to note those exceptions that can be attributed to some activity of the game's RNG while completely failing to grasp the concept that luck isn't discouraged simply for the sake of being luck. It should be obvious that this is not the case, such as shown earlier in the nuances between choking as well as, obviously, what has concerned and justified existing clauses.

Actually, you're assuming that I started with only that assumption. Regardless, I don't want to start another semantics argument and neither do you. The difference here is that no-one's "assuming" that being trapped is being "outplayed" (again, not getting into the outplayed/choking semantics argument). That premise was not there as an assumption but it's there as a conclusion. It was part of a hypothesis, if you will. Also, what's wrong with assuming S-tag is not uncompetitive? You're the one who wants to ban the thing, so you're the one who has the burden to prove that it is uncompetitive. S-tag is presumed "innocent until guilty", you could say.

Anyway, I don't know if you're deliberately ignoring anti-ban arguments or forgetting them. I couldn't for the life of me know why you still think that luck is targeted for the sake of being luck. Here, let me just reiterate one of my previous posts:

(If you want to read ANYTHING from this post, make it this next paragraph because it's the most important. I know you haven't got the courtesy to read my analogies, but make sure you read the following because it's the most high yield)

Anyway, I'm not here to overhype luck. I am here to give you an explanation on why luck has been a major factor (and usually deciding factor) in every ban we've had so far, and why, if you're going to even consider referring to past bans in Ubers, that you're going to have to come to terms of what made luck such an important factor in all the bans we've had. Like I said in my last post which you don't seem to have registered (of course I understand you don't even think what I have to say is worth reading any more), what makes Shadow Tag different from all the bans we've had so far is the fact that everything that Shadow Tag is based on are choices made by you and your opponent. Everything that Shadow Tag depends on are human decisions. You have intelligent, conscious choices that you make to either avoid/succumb to getting trapped by S-tag. If you lose to someone with Shadow Tag, it's not because it was something out of your control, but because you chose (whether you knew what was going to happen or not, whether you were forced to through your opponent's plays or not) to go in a sequence of events that led you to being beaten by Shadow Tag. If you want a quick summary of the last few lines, it comes down to "you were outplayed". For the most part apart from the intrinsic luck elements that we couldn't ban, if you outplayed your opponent (factoring in decisions regarding Shadow Tag), you won. The result depended on decisions made by both players. It's different from every other ban we've had (with the exception of Sleep Clause, which I've gone into in detail). For the other bans based on uncompetitiveness, be it Moody or Swagger or OHKO or Evasion in the past, you could outplay your opponent and still lose because the result depended on an external factor that is not in the control of either player. That external factor is conveniently what we refer to as luck. It has nothing to do with consistency/inconsistency. We didn't ban these things because it let you beat your opponent sometimes with luck and therefore something as consistent as S-tag deserves to banned. This is what is meant by the OU council's definition of "taking away control of the player", not whatever garbage to do with choice of switching, or what have you.

Now again, you and I both want to avoid another semantics argument about "outplay" and "choke" so I'm not going to label it as such, but clearly, it still remains that the game is in the hands of both players and therefore everything that happens is a result of decisions made by both you and the opponent. You might not have "choked" or been "outplayed", but it is certainly due to an accumulation of decisions that you lost and not due to Shadow Tag itself. Maybe you got outplayed, maybe you choked, maybe both. The decisions made by you and your opponent decided the outcome of the match, not Shadow Tag.

There's just an excessively bureaucratic approach coming from the majority of the anti-ban arguments. Perhaps this can be attributed to the general inexperience and ignorance, in regards to the metagame in question, that is evident within said demographic. Perhaps the subtleties of the debated element is also at fault, as the impact it has is not nearly as in-your-face as most setup sweepers that are constantly alluded to in comparison. Regardless of what it may be, those presenting these types of arguments are apparently pushed into questioning Shadow Tag in regards to Ubers policy and even the policy itself rather than analyzing at face value what is actually taking place. This results in endless, circular arguments on semantics, subjective measuring, and appeals to tradition. There is certainly murkiness on the subject of policy, as is made evident by the numerous false dichotomies like "tier vs banlist" or "op vs uncompetitive" that run rampant. However, this is neither the time nor the place for such discussion and, frankly, those (or rather the one) who have (has) the authority to determine such policy have (has) not been participating in the many arguments concerning it.

Just a note in general: Actually, there is a very clear distinction between OP vs uncompetitive. It even says in the OU council definition. Regardless, it's not a false dichotomy because this tier has never regarded OP as a thing we need to ban. This is the reason why it has to be made crystal clear what is merely OP and what is uncompetitive. Regardless of how you feel about them, semantics are important because while words are only there to convey ideas and meaning, when you start distorting words you start distorting ideas and meaning. War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. OP/unbalanced is a very different concept to what we call "uncompetitive" (whatever that means), and it should remain as such.

Anyway, I don't want to start an OP vs uncompetitive argument here, but the point is semantics is important in many cases, and it would be foolish to disregard arguments purely because they are on semantics, especially when the words are being used to justify bans. I mean come on, if you're going to use a word like uncompetitive to justify banning a Pokemon, you better make sure that the word is 1) properly defined and 2) used in a proper manner.

The fact of the matter is that Shadow Tag is very problematic. This is because by bringing it into a game, I am bringing with me the almost certain potential to rob my opponent of the possibility to act in contradiction. You can take your ruler made of Xerneas to measure the size and scope of that interdiction and compare it to other accepted elements but it doesn't erase the fact. Nothing else that isn't itself subject to a potential ban produces the same effect and is currently found present in the metagame. This isn't tolerable despite whatever contrived reasons one might conjure to excuse it. Even the best players are not psychics and, even those who might be, will sometimes find themselves trapped by the inevitable. There needs to be some way for the opposing player to fight against what is taking place, however small. Not simply be forced into a state of passivity and charged with cleaning up the mess afterwards or somehow preventing the monster from even beginning its motion.

First bolded part: Actually, that's what we're supposed to do. I know you and I both hate the OU council definition now, but (and I can't help but feel the irony that I'm the one telling you now) that until we get a better one that the majority agree on, let's just stick to this one (unless you want to go back to my definition that you hate even more?). The definition clearly applies a meaning and a condition to the word uncompetitive. I know your view is that even if it takes away autonomy, no matter the degree, that it should be banned. I'm going to say I disagree with that notion but I'm not going to press the issue except to say that 1) this is actually not how we run competitive Pokemon in general because like Focus said before in his post, there are things that take away autonomy that we are perfectly fine with, and 2) it directly contradicts the definition itself (the one that you provided) because the definition clearly calls for the degree of autonomy loss to be scrutinised.

You deleted my post last time, I'll just link this again:

As demonstrated by Evasion Clause testing, philosophy alone is not enough to ban an element from Ubers. There needs to be a practical application of this broken element that shows it does have an actual, realistic impact on the metagame.

Wait... you said that?


Second bolded part: Sure, I know all the teambuilding options (all the bs ones you hate like Shed Shell and Voltturn) are unreliable, but hey, aren't those "ways the opposing player can fight against what is taking place, however small"?

 

[alwayswimmin]

Team matchups aren't


The Pursuit game has always been a matter of making decisions based off of your opponent's previous plays. The 50/50 scenario is only when you're blindly clicking buttons. We really need to differentiate between prediction and circumstance that isn't created by either player. One is the result of competitive play, the other is merely the result of the RNG saying so. Dunno about you, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to consider a component of competitive play as uncompetitive.

Mega Scizor and Tyranitar are both capable of surviving 4x hits and retaliating for the kill tho.

While we might not know our opponent's possible moves, we can still understand guess them from the team they have and the sets that have become pretty standard. Intelligent decision making is nonetheless part of playing against Shadow Tag, and it really isn't as if Shadow Tag prevents one from making said intelligent plays.

You're missing my argument. People are better at Pokemon because they consistently make solid plays and know when to take risks that are both safe but also have good reward. They aren't better at Pokemon because they're better at reading your mind and know exactly what move you're going to click or what Pokemon you're going to switch into. The ability to win in competitive games is contingent on long-term planning and not on short-term prediction. Even if your Scarf Ogre has been clicking Water Spout the past two times its been switched in, and I'm about 80% sure you're going to click Thunder, I'm not necessarily going to switch in my Defensive Groudon because 1) I need it healthy to prevent an EKiller sweep and 2) my Groudon doesn't have enough offensive presence to threaten your switch-in the following turn. Though I may benefit in the short term this is still high risk, low reward.

On the other hand, if I have a Dialga in on your Ferrothorn, I may double into Specs Ogre anticipating your Ho-oh, because not only do I have a favorable match-up against Ho-oh, but I am also able to punish your Ferrothorn coming in the turn afterwards with a Specs Water Spout. On the other hand, if I predict wrong, I might have gotten leech-seeded or you set up a layer of spikes, so it's not the end of the world, though I do lose momentum. This is a more medium risk but with a high reward.

Competitive play is about making smarter plays, not about guessing correctly on every 50/50.

(Also Mega Scizor needs either full special defensive investment or rain to live HP Fire after Stealth Rocks, so it's shaky at best. TTar needs Chople Berry. So yes 1v1 TTar wins but you have to predict the double into Gengar, which is very high risk but high reward and generally not worth it if you need TTar to check something else like Ho-oh since you lose half your health eating a Focus Blast (or you die to DBond). But you should also note that teams running HP Fire Gengar are specifically designed to take advantage of weakened/removed steels, like an EKiller Xerneas core. So though you may end up beating Mega Gengar 1v1 you lose the game overall. Whether or not you think this fact is uncompetitive, e.g. how is it different from running HP Fire coverage Xerneas, is something for you to decide but I feel it needs to be made clear.)

 

[boo836]

You're missing my argument. People are better at Pokemon because they consistently make solid plays and know when to take risks that are both safe but also have good reward. They aren't better at Pokemon because they're better at reading your mind and know exactly what move you're going to click or what Pokemon you're going to switch into. The ability to win in competitive games is contingent on long-term planning and not on short-term prediction. Even if your Scarf Ogre has been clicking Water Spout the past two times its been switched in, and I'm about 80% sure you're going to click Thunder, I'm not necessarily going to switch in my Defensive Groudon because 1) I need it healthy to prevent an EKiller sweep and 2) my Groudon doesn't have enough offensive presence to threaten your switch-in the following turn. Though I may benefit in the short term this is still high risk, low reward.

On the other hand, if I have a Dialga in on your Ferrothorn, I may double into Specs Ogre anticipating your Ho-oh, because not only do I have a favorable match-up against Ho-oh, but I am also able to punish your Ferrothorn coming in the turn afterwards with a Specs Water Spout. On the other hand, if I predict wrong, I might have gotten leech-seeded or you set up a layer of spikes, so it's not the end of the world, though I do lose momentum. This is a more medium risk but with a high reward.

Competitive play is about making smarter plays, not about guessing correctly on every 50/50.

(Also Mega Scizor needs either full special defensive investment or rain to live HP Fire after Stealth Rocks, so it's shaky at best. TTar needs Chople Berry. So yes 1v1 TTar wins but you have to predict the double into Gengar, which is very high risk but high reward and generally not worth it if you need TTar to check something else like Ho-oh since you lose half your health eating a Focus Blast (or you die to DBond). But you should also note that teams running HP Fire Gengar are specifically designed to take advantage of weakened/removed steels, like an EKiller Xerneas core. So though you may end up beating Mega Gengar 1v1 you lose the game overall. Whether or not you think this fact is uncompetitive, e.g. how is it different from running HP Fire coverage Xerneas, is something for you to decide but I feel it needs to be made clear.)

I don't think I am missing your argument. Making decisions based upon percieved likelihoods and the risks and rewards of them are pretty much the name of the game. When you teambuild, you prepare for the common sets of common pokemon. When you predict, you're going for the obvious move's countermove. Long term planning isn't what wins most games, as there's too many variables to account for, from your opponent's playstyle to the sets they have, to even the dumb luck that happens from time to time. You're taking each turn as it comes, not every turn prior. That being said, you can still plan your plays, like maneuvering to smack mgar switches (psyshocking the switch from yveltal with your xerneas, for instance.

Fair point about the pairings, though imo that's still about brokenness since is about the qualities of pokemon and overcentralization.

 

[alejandrosh]

I disagree. Mindgames are luck, especially on an online game when you can't even see the opponent's reactions, etc. The only reason "mindgames" like rock-paper-scissor contests and poker tournaments are even a thing is because one is in actual physical contact with the person, and one could, if you will, "mindgame" the opponent and "get into his/her head." The fact that I did not physically flip a coin, or in the case of Pokemon use RNG, to decide whether I click Sucker Punch or Pursuit absolutely does not mean that it wasn't still a 50/50 game of chance I just played.

Poker is all about determining people's ranges (yours and your opponent) and playing accordingly , the player that does it closer to reality will win always in the long run, as a (former) semi-professional poker player what you said is borderline insulting.

Now carry on.

 

[MMII]

One of you two will have to change your avatar if you are both going to keep posting in this thread. I'm going to put the weight on boo#s shoulders because I don't like him.

 

[boo836]

Poker is all about determining people's ranges (yours and your opponent) and playing accordingly , the player that does it closer to reality will win always in the long run, as a (former) semi-professional poker player what you said is borderline insulting.

Now carry on.

Precisely what I'm saying. You can't call prediction and reads luck as luck is a matter that's independent from player decisions. Since reads ARE player decisions, it makes no sense top consider them separate.

 

[alwayswimmin]

Poker is all about determining people's ranges (yours and your opponent) and playing accordingly , the player that does it closer to reality will win always in the long run, as a (former) semi-professional poker player what you said is borderline insulting.

Now carry on.

You are claiming that risk/reward decision making is what makes poker competitive, and I completely agree - this actually supports my claim. Consistently making smart decisions (not necessarily prediction-based decisions) is what makes both poker and pokemon more than blind "prediction and mind games."

If my message came across as insulting, sorry about that, but that's not what I was going for. I should be more clear and say the mindgame aspect of poker only has significance because it is played in person. I was just trying to illustrate that a competitive game ought to reflect more than rock-paper-scissors prediction, and you seem to agree with me on this.

 

[jrp]

So after laddering for about 5 days on a couple different alts before settling on a specific one to hit reqs with, my opinion that suspect tests like these are nearly impossible to come to a definite conclusion with. Certainly, we can hold preconceived notions towards what we consider "broken" or not, but the issue with tests where a specific mechanic is being tested always seem to end up with nobody actually making an effort to "abuse" the mechanic. I saw it in the evasion test last generation, and I'm seeing it again here. The fact is that very few people on the ladder are actually using Shadow Tag, and it is incredibly difficult to come up with an opinion based on what I've seen on ladder. I would have liked to participate in the research tournament, but my current situation leaves me a bit too busy to be able to focus on tournaments. I've said (on irc/private discussions with some ubers players) my opinion towards shadow tag is that it removes one of the fundamental mechanics of Pokemon, which is switching. More-so, it allows the (in theory) unfair ability to remove defensive Pokemon from the game, since they often have no way to respond to the immediate pressure that something like Mega Gengar or Gothitelle places on the player. Certainly ,I enjoy having Pokemon like Chansey and Klefki left practically useless in the face of a shadow tag user (those two being two pokemon I absolutely detest), but having an ability that can single-handedly neuter otherwise fine support/defensive Pokemon is something I am not entirely in favor of.

For the "on-paper" reasoning i've seen, I would definitely side towards banning the ability. But on the other hand, I have not seen anyone using something like Mega Gengar outside of sacrificing itself to allow a revenge kill via Destiny Bond, and the problem with that is that they lose the advantage that shadow tag would bring to the table. I'm definitely not seeing anything in practice that's convincing me to side with the pro-ban side on this, but I'll subject myself to having to talk to scummy Melee Mewtwo to come up with a good stance on what to do. I also share a bed with a goat.


/wall of text

 

[Nimbus125]

Many people vote for not banning Shadow Tag, and I’m one of them. Imo, the big “ban or no ban” lies on how you define uncompetitive. Since it’s loosely defined, it can be hard to understand what it means, but to me it’s basically if something takes out the competition and skill of a match. Now, the reason Shadow Tag is banned in (I think) UU and below is because of how powerful it is, but in Ubers, we can’t ban something for just being powerful, since Ubers IS where the most powerful things in Pokemon are. This means it all just depends on is Shadow Tag uncompetitive, or not? Imo, it isn’t uncompetitive, as various things that have been banned for being uncompetitive (Evasion, OHKO moves, Moody etc.) turn the game from a competition of skill to a coin flip. Shadow Tag, however, doesn’t. You always see it on the team preview, and you can always play around it fairly easily. Usually at best, Gengar will only take one poke (unless you feed it something that’s scarfed, then you don’t really lose much). Goth on the other hand, is a bit harder to play around, but is so rare that it’s not a big deal, and even if you do find it, Sp. Def bulky attackers (especially Ho-Oh, who’s everywhere) take it down fairly easily.

This all leads to me personally thinking that, no, Shadow Tag is NOT uncompetitive, and is NOT bannable in Ubers.
Just my thoughts on the matter, not the most experience Ubers player, but decided to say what I thought anyway.

 

[MMII]

Now, the reason Shadow Tag is banned in (I think) UU and below is because of how powerful it is

Actually, kokoloko implemented that ban in response to the Ubers Shadow Tag thread in IS. It was also the very first response post, lol.

Not that it means he didn't have other reasons for doing it or that it changes anything in your post. I just thought it was a humorous tidbit to share. Just found it kinda funny how this was the second time in recent history that the Ubers playerbase has more or less directly been involved in lower tier clauses. (the other time was Swagger, lol) We just seem to be the slowest to do something about it ourselves.

carry on

 

[RedsCharizard]

In my opinion, Shadow Tag should not get banned.

For one, I think Gengar is one of the few things keeping Geomany Xerneas from getting banned as well. Being able to trap it and use Taunt before it sets up is huge for countering this Pokemon. Without Gengar, all that's left to counter Xerneas is Mega Scizor and Klefki.
Futhermore, it can be played around. A good player knows when it'll want to switch in. If you're in with a Chansey, Ferrothorn, or something similar, it will definitely want to switch in. This way, you can double out into a Pokemon that will counter the likely Gengar or Gothitelle switch. Also, on the topic of Gengar, if it hasn't mega-evolved yet, the Pokemon can still be switched out before Gengar aquires Shadow Tag.
Shadow Tag is still rather easily checked, as all ubers walls carry some sort of attacking move(save Giratina), and many things are bulky enough to take a move and retaliate back with a move that will take out Gengar. If it's a Gothitelle, it won't be dealing much damage to an uber, even with Choice Specs.

Shadow Tag simply isn't bannable from ubers, as it can be played around, and isn't entirely uncompetitive. This is just an opinion, and I didn't put it as well as many people on this thread have, as i'm not as experienced as many other ubers players.

 

[Jibaku]

I just want to briefly point out that Gothitelle's main draw isn't Choice Specs. Of course that's not going to do much damage.

The main threat would be Gothitelle setting up Calm Minds on certain defensive or choice locked Pokemon, following up with either Double Team (x6) or Trick Room and then sweeping teams apart with Psyshock. Rest grants it the ability to significantly prolong its setup time.

It can even use Charm to nullify physical threats while it sets up CMs, extending its setup range, but reducing its sweeping potential in the process.

 

[Minority]

In my opinion, Shadow Tag should not get banned.

For one, I think Gengar is one of the few things keeping Geomany Xerneas from getting banned as well. Being able to trap it and use Taunt before it sets up is huge for countering this Pokemon. Without Gengar, all that's left to counter Xerneas is Mega Scizor and Klefki.
Futhermore, it can be played around. A good player knows when it'll want to switch in. If you're in with a Chansey, Ferrothorn, or something similar, it will definitely want to switch in. This way, you can double out into a Pokemon that will counter the likely Gengar or Gothitelle switch. Also, on the topic of Gengar, if it hasn't mega-evolved yet, the Pokemon can still be switched out before Gengar aquires Shadow Tag.
Shadow Tag is still rather easily checked, as all ubers walls carry some sort of attacking move(save Giratina), and many things are bulky enough to take a move and retaliate back with a move that will take out Gengar. If it's a Gothitelle, it won't be dealing much damage to an uber, even with Choice Specs.

Shadow Tag simply isn't bannable from ubers, as it can be played around, and isn't entirely uncompetitive. This is just an opinion, and I didn't put it as well as many people on this thread have, as i'm not as experienced as many other ubers players.

Mega Gengar is not keeping Geo Xern from being banned; not only is Mega Gengar one of the poorer checks, but the basis for bans are not broken-ness. Geomancy Xerneas will never be banned for obvious reasons, and although it is similar in regards to Mega Gengar where it can choose its coverage to bypass threats, Mega Gengar is being examined for a different reason entirely. I assure you there are many ways to handle Xerneas other than Mega Scizor and Klefki, so that is a poor argument. While a player certainly can take advantage of the turn it takes Gengar to Mega, ultimately you can never ensure that it can be played around no matter your "skill". The assumption that Shadow Tag "is easily checked" is a very poor one, and do you really think this suspect would be happening if beating Tag was so easy. Furthermore the mention of Choice Specs Gothitelle in Ubers in addition to everything else solidifies your final sentence. I invite you to read previous posts to get a better understanding of Shadow Tag.

 

[MMII]

Dude, double team / heal bell or bust. Every option goth has is outclassed by Double Team except for Heal Bell and, ~I guess~, Taunt.

 

[trillyntruly]

although it is similar in regards to Mega Gengar where it can choose its coverage to bypass threats, Mega Gengar is being examined for a different reason entirely

wait, we're looking at mega gengar? this is news to me. this is my problem. i truly believe that there is a large number of people on the pro-ban side that truly believe the ability shadow tag is just uncompetitive no matter what. but sometimes i get this feeling that some people on that side just want mega gengar gone. we aren't supposed to be looking at mega gengar. he's not the point. he was already put up on the chopping block. we're looking at shadow tag. we've established that there is a degree of subjectivity to what makes something uncompetitive, and a host of people having sorted their opinions beforehand kind of doesn't allow for a discussion wherein many people's opinions will change. i personally have been swaying back and forth the entire time (with a biased lean towards no-ban). i finally got around to laddering enough to get my reqs today and so, while i do feel as though i've learned a lot from this thread, i would like some more information. namely, i don't feel as though it has been proven very well that shadow tag is uncompetitive. this isn't me attempting to argue, mind you, this is me asking for evidence. let me represent the 3rd party, the voter who has not participated in this discussion. after all, we can't very well claim shadow tag is busted without some sort of evidence or proof. and i find this issue to be interesting because most people would inherently agree, or be able to understand very simply, why other clauses are in place. other uncompetitive elements are ones that most any player can admit is just dumb and uncompetitive. but in the case of shadow tag there is so much controversy and differing opinion, which says to me that there is an inherent difference, at the very least, between shadow tag and certain elements that have already been established as uncompetitive (note that this does not bar stag from the list of things that can be uncompetitive, but it should raise questions).

i guess my point is this, complaining that "bad" players are going to be voting and mucking up the votes doesn't get us anywhere. and if it is truly an issue that goes beyond the heads of most inexperienced uber players, rather than pointing out that they're bad and their opinions are wrong, you should point out, in detail, why stag is uncompetitive. it's clearly different from other mechanics and is a more complex subject. it requires nuanced knowledge of the metagame to understand and explain why it is uncompetitive. evasion, sleep, and swagplay is easy to understand. everything is in the hands of the rng and the player's choices are entirely sacrificed. in the case of stag, this is sort of the case. the player's choices are relevant to stag and how it will interact and work in a match.

while i could try to convey my perspective better and flesh it out with more detail, i'm noticing now that my point is a bit muddled by incoherence so i'll just get to my endpoint:

someone plz, before voting begins. tell me, someone who wants to vote correctly (ie, not where i'm leaning, or what my gut says (which is already against the ban-side)), why i should vote pro-ban. i just want someone to try to calmly explain why shadow tag, as an ability, removes from any given game of pokemon, competition. if unable, i will just vote with my own devices, skillset, and knowledge.

 

[Martin]

I have found no time to properly ladder and, as such, i am going to miss the deadline for the suspect test. So here are my thoughts on the subject:

Shadow Tag is solidly one of the things that lets a "less skilled" player beat a "more skilled" player. However, I am going to dismiss that immediately as there is no way of proving one player is worse than another unless they are consistently beaten over an extended time period (i.e. a month) by that same player over and over. The fact is that Shadow Tag isn't something that lets a worse player beat a better player, but rather something that enables a player who didn't make the better plays win a match. However, what defines 'better plays'? For all we know the player who was making the 'better plays' was making suboptimal plays that happened to match up well against the more optimal plays. There is my issue with a lot of the argument that I have seen in this thread: there are no good definitions of what makes you a 'better' player, or how you can play 'better' in a match. The fact is this: we can't know whether someone is playing better unless we know the thought processes behind the plays. The 'worse player' may have had the better thought processes than the 'better player'. The fact is that Shadow Tag doesn't let you turn around a match easily like, say, hax does. And I think that is why the matter is ultimately more split than things like Swagger. The fact is that using Shadow Tag to greatest effect is something that requires half a brain, which a lot of players lack. Things like Gothitelle and Mega Gengar don't actually have much that they can deal with reliably due to their poor typing and relative frailty, respectively. And in a metagame as ferocious as ubers, which is ultimately a metagame for tournaments, it makes their jobs just a little harder to do. Using Shadow Tag well requires the combination of an ounce of sense and a neutral/good matchup, and that is something that isn't the most common occurence in ubers. Looking at the usage stats from September (srs y is aegislash so freaking high on this? it is lackluster at best - probably only up there as m-gar was so hyped), out of the top 10 most used pokemon (1630 stats), 6 can reliably beat Gengar (if they can predict around Taunt and D-Bond, obvs) and 5 can reliably beat Gothitelle. That is info that really shows how they struggle to get around many of the most-used threats in the tier, and it is what makes Shadow Tag something that doesn't mean the truely worse player will win.

However, Mega Gengar and Gothitelle have many things that also push me in the ban direction. The fact is that Shadow Tag is still one of the deadliest weapons in the game, meaning that it can turn a matchup that is slightly below neutral into a probable win, and this means that it is disgusting when put in the right hands. This is where they come into their own and it is why the ability is so controversial. While they may not be able to come in on the majority of the top 10, they can still come in on a large portion of the Pokemon viable in ubers, and Mega Gengar can easily take out a win con with the click of a button (e.g. Klefki as a Geoxern counter), while Gothitelle can come in on Pokemon like various support Arceus formes, post-Draco Meteor special attackers, Scarf Xerneas, Dialga and non-Lustrous Orb variants of Palkia. Then it can set up, shut down their offensive presence with Trick Room or just generally f*** with the opponent - hence the nickname 'literally satan'. Mega Gengar and Gothitelle are literally the only reason that Chansey is inviable while Blissey has to run shit like Shed Shell, sacrificing passive revovery and the ability to check special attackers better to enable it to not be setup or death fodder for Gengar and Gothitelle. This is where Shadow Tag is scary, and why it is so controversial: it forces subpar things like Aegislash and Shed Shell Blissey to be used just to get around it reliably, and it is ultimately what is drawing a large percentage of players to the pro-ban circle.

Now, for what I would vote if I had the chance: I would vote to NOT BAN on the basis that the successful use of Shadow Tag is very matchup-reliant, and tbh it needs to have a team that can truly abuse its utility in order for it to be a great asset to a team. Furthermore, it is not uncompetitive in the same way as something like Swagger as, unlike said move, it requires half a brain to actually use to any success - it isn't luck-based.

Feel free to criticize and comment on my post however you want, just please make your comments constructive rather than flame or simple statements as in-depth discussion is what I want to encourage from this post.

 

[accidental_racist]

So im not sure if this is the right place but,
I vote no to banning shadow cause, shadow tag isnt really that much of threat to many pokes, now im sure it may sound like im talking out of my @ss here ( i probally am) but speaking of mega g itself it doesnt seem to be that difficult to take out before it can mega evole and use shadow tag, imo thats not really op as one could either kill it before it can destiny, also with the new games coming out soon, everything's gonna change and the idea of banning something before great change is simply foolish and should be avoided in all cases, (once again my opinion), now i realized this is a somewhat shit post, but the point is banning shadow tag, would redundant as banning something right before the meta is a folly, also i qualified today so i guess theres that. TO CONCLUDE I VOTE NOT TO BAN SHADOW TAG (if it matters)