NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[FlareBlitz]

Heracross does not cause "any" team in the metagame a truckload of trouble. Individual, non broken Pokemon certainly cause offense and balance way more trouble than Heracross. However, it is Heracross' sheer proficiency against stall in combination with his still-useful nature against regular offensive teams that causes it to be so broken (in theory, anyway).

Also guys...what about SubSD Heracross :3 Megahorn/Close Combat is walled by a few things, but the fact is that with a substitute and a swords dance you maximize Heracross' potential against all kinds of teams. Moltres, of course, troubles this set immensely...I'm expecting to see a lot of Moltres around this round. Better start packing those trickscarf Stealth Rock leads and those effective spinblockers!

 

[shrang]

Heracross does not cause "any" team in the metagame a truckload of trouble.

But you said it yourself:

Heracross wipes out 5/6 members of an average stall team by itself, with no assistance (the exception being the occasional moltres). Heracross also wipes 3/6 or 4/6 Pokemon on a balance team, depending on the team. Heracross wipes out 3/6 or 2/6 Pokemon on standard offense, again depending on the team. Average all those out and you easily have "a majority".

Okay, maybe not a "truckload" of trouble, but "considerable" trouble. Yes, Heracross does give stall hell, but this individual fact is not enough to prove him broken, but the sum of his performance against EVERY team in the metagame possibly is. Anyway, I'm quite sure you get what I'm on about.

 

[Heysup]

Okay, let's look at Stall, Balance, Offense, etc. Already, if you wipe out one style, it's not a majority (At least if you count them equally anyway, and if you're not, you just completely contradicted your second bit). Even if there was only Stall and Offense, and they both took up 50% of the metagame, you're still not at a majority. Again, making a playstyle less viable is a consequence of the Suspect fitting the Offensive Characteristic, and should never be used as a cause of a Pokemon's broken level, just like the Overcentralisation argument.

You're emphasize my point with that line. We merely said a Pokemon who does this is a Pokemon that is broken because that's what we decided. You pushed it further and said that making a playstyle less viable is a consequence (IE evidence) of a Pokemon fulfilling the offensive characteristic.

Heracross should not be jumped on and put in BL, but seriously neither should we be overly cautious about voting something BL if it fits the criteria. Gallade was made BL because it destroyed stall and was useful against offense. With Heracross, I can see it being an utter menace to all teams because of its greater coverage, status absorbing, Speed, and EQ resistance, but this is all speculation. We will just need to wait and see.

 

[Banedon]

Take a look at this post shrang, it's one of the best arguments I've read for a certain Pokemon being BL or otherwise - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2380690&postcount=88

Personally I never had too much trouble with Gallade. It was too slow to sweep my team. I felt it was not only very far from BL, it wasn't even a top-tier threat ... but that post makes a convincing case that Gallade is BL. I can agree with the last paragraph especially well. Gallade vs. offense is just kind of good, but if Gallade destroys stall, then, well, it's BL. You can argue a Pokemon destroying stall still doesn't make it BL I suppose, but for me if Gallade demolishes a major playstyle single-handedly then that's enough reason to support a Gallade ban.

I imagine - haven't tried or played against Heracross yet - that Heracross will have a similar effect to stall, and should therefore be banned by precedent. But I've not tried or played against Heracross yet, so I cite anything to back it up, either.

 

[shrang]

Take a look at this post shrang, it's one of the best arguments I've read for a certain Pokemon being BL or otherwise - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2380690&postcount=88

Personally I never had too much trouble with Gallade. It was too slow to sweep my team. I felt it was not only very far from BL, it wasn't even a top-tier threat ... but that post makes a convincing case that Gallade is BL. I can agree with the last paragraph especially well. Gallade vs. offense is just kind of good, but if Gallade destroys stall, then, well, it's BL. You can argue a Pokemon destroying stall still doesn't make it BL I suppose, but for me if Gallade demolishes a major playstyle single-handedly then that's enough reason to support a Gallade ban.

I imagine - haven't tried or played against Heracross yet - that Heracross will have a similar effect to stall, and should therefore be banned by precedent. But I've not tried or played against Heracross yet, so I cite anything to back it up, either.

While he emphasised a lot on Gallade's ability to break stall, but did you also notice he talked about non-stall teams too?? The "breaking Stall" bit can be a major factor, yes, but it can't be your sole argument. Personally, I think he could have written a little more on Gallade's ability to take on other teams, but the message is clear. Coming back to my suspect with his DNA at the crime scene, yes, the DNA at the crime scene means makes it pretty likely that the suspect is guilty, but is not conclusive enough to prove that he is. Other factors like where he was on the day (like how Gallade/Heracross does against other playstyles not named stall) is the determining factor of whether he is guilty (In our case, BL) or not.

 

[Meru]

I think what Flareblitz is trying to say is that Heracross makes Stall non-viable while not being dead weight against other teams. For example, something like Calm Mind Uxie is difficult for stall teams but can be dead weight against offense teams because they can hit hard enough to pressure its weakness: no recovery.

At least that's what I think he's trying to say. He's a stallbreaker doesn't completely flop in Situation A while shining in Situation B.

 

[Alan]

Also guys...what about SubSD Heracross :3 Megahorn/Close Combat is walled by a few things, but the fact is that with a substitute and a swords dance you maximize Heracross' potential against all kinds of teams. Moltres, of course, troubles this set immensely...I'm expecting to see a lot of Moltres around this round. Better start packing those trickscarf Stealth Rock leads and those effective spinblockers!

haha i was actually thinking about a set like that today in my world civ class (its boring and i already know most of ww1). although i was going for cc + stone edge so subroost moltres cant set up all over me and +2 stone does a lot to everything as well.

edit: shit :( heracross doesn't get foresight/odor sleuth. :( sub/cc/se/odor sleuth or foresight would be so hot :(

 

[Kir]

I want to try Sub + SD as well. Substitute eases prediction against offense, while Swords Dance helps break down stall. It definitely sounds really cool. As Flare said, CC + Megahorn isn't perfect, but you can't have everything. If I were to use this set, I would certainly pair it with a Milotic and a spinner to answer Moltres. A Pursuiter would be another great partner, so the ghosts that resist the STAB combo can't ruin the sweep.

 

[Arcticblast]

Heracross still seems overrated. The only change I had to make was adding Rotom, something I needed anyway as a Spin blocker, and I replaced WOW with HP Flying. My team is decently Hera-resistant anyway.

 

[M BLADE]

Heracross still seems overrated. The only change I had to make was adding Rotom, something I needed anyway as a Spin blocker, and I replaced WOW with HP Flying. My team is decently Hera-resistant anyway.

My old NU team made Cresselia their bitch. Does this mean Cresselia is overrated?

1-Yes
2-No
3-...what?

Pick a number.

I'm still inclined to use Scarf Hera. Problem is that Heracross is now UU, so everyone's prepared to handle Heracross (through Moltres, Weezing, Nidoqueen... Masquerain?), and i can't find a poke that can easily handle every Hera check (though Houndoom comes very close).

 

[Bluewind]

Heracross still seems overrated. The only change I had to make was adding Rotom, something I needed anyway as a Spin blocker, and I replaced WOW with HP Flying. My team is decently Hera-resistant anyway.

You're aware that Houndoom/Spiritomb paired with Heracross will be an outrageously common combo, right?

 

[Bad Ass]

i can't find a poke that can easily handle every Hera check (though Houndoom comes very close).

Moltres.

 

[Bad Ass]

All (correct me if I'm wrong sorry) Rotom are 2hko'd by Heracross. Ones that do not outspeed Moltres get knocked out by a Fire Blast.

 

[M BLADE]

@ Folgorio: The only reason i didn't mentioned Moltres (though Rotom... well... rolls over and dies when hit by Fire Blast).
Ok, there's another reason: i forgot. But that's changing the subject...

Let's go to the facts: Heracross is semi slow (it's not SLOW, but it's not fast either). That holds Hera potential a bit.
So, what about passing a Agility to it? Seeing that Hera barely needs Life Orb to KO everything on it's sight, it could even hold Leftovers to increase it's survivability by quite a bit...

 

[Arcticblast]

My old NU team made Cresselia their bitch. Does this mean Cresselia is overrated?

1-Yes
2-No
3-...what?

Pick a number.

I'm still inclined to use Scarf Hera. Problem is that Heracross is now UU, so everyone's prepared to handle Heracross (through Moltres, Weezing, Nidoqueen... Masquerain?), and i can't find a poke that can easily handle every Hera check (though Houndoom comes very close).

Cresselia and Heracross are two different Pokemon with two very different uses, and really shouldn't be compared.

@ Folgorio: The only reason i didn't mentioned Moltres (though Rotom... well... rolls over and dies when hit by Fire Blast).
Ok, there's another reason: i forgot. But that's changing the subject...

Let's go to the facts: Heracross is semi slow (it's not SLOW, but it's not fast either). That holds Hera potential a bit.
So, what about passing a Agility to it? Seeing that Hera barely needs Life Orb to KO everything on it's sight, it could even hold Leftovers to increase it's survivability by quite a bit...

Rotom rolls?

A +2 Speed Heracross could kick ass, but Baton Pass isn't all that good in itself without Ninjask, the Pokemon that can't do anything else. Even then, it can be worn down by priority and safe switching. Bulky Hitmontop with Fake Out + Intimidate comes to mind.

Not saying BP teams are bad, they kick my ass.

 

[Smurf.]

Gligar can wall opposing heracross, and bp agility to your own.

 

[dbcb]

Gligar can wall opposing heracross, and bp agility to your own.

adamant flame orb facade is going to 2hko max/max gligar

so it can wall same heras but not all.

still think flame orb will be the best set because facade eliminates a lot of cross's "counters"

 

[sharkz]

That's gonna be the only set that can break Gligar, all the other sets are walled. And it's not like its hard to revenge it either...85 speed isn't THAT fast.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Sets that eliminate 'counters' are always going to look the best on paper. Yes, it's quite difficult to hard counter Flame Orb SD Cross. However, that set is very easy to wear down and/or revenge with a little smart play, especially if it takes hits setting up.

 

[kd24]

heracross has been pretty overrated so far - it seems like another amazing sweeper that once again lacks a viable way to boost speed outside of scarf and has no viable priority.

Edit: For the record, i'm not saying heracross isn't good. it is probably going to be the top UU Pokemon, so don't think im calling it bad by saying its overrated.

Edit2: And so people don't get all angry with me, Heracross may very well end up being banned - All I'm saying is to give it a chance and at least attempt to adapt to the new metagame before declaring it broken.

i think a lot of people want to find hard counters to heracross - you aren't really going to do it. instead, you want to just build your team to making sure it can survive heracross onslaughts. and with heracross's 295 max speed, there are plenty of pokemon you can use to revenge or shift the momentum to your side. moltres, arcanine, rotom, scyther, golbat, weezing, etc

these pokemon aren't going to always counter heracross, but you can use them to keep the momentum and keep heracross in check, allowing you to slowly wear it down with entry hazards, status (which hera might be carrying itself), and life orb.

 

[Meru]

adamant flame orb facade is going to 2hko max/max gligar

so it can wall same heras but not all.

still think flame orb will be the best set because facade eliminates a lot of cross's "counters"

NOBODY is going to run Adamant. If you're going to throw out calculations, at least make them realistically applicable.

 

[Arcticblast]

NOBODY is going to run Adamant. If you're going to throw out calculations, at least make them realistically applicable.

The Scarf set will probably run Adamant.

 

[Meru]

That's actually a plausible theory but then it doesn't have flame orb, so it doesn't 1HKO Gligar.

 

[dbcb]

NOBODY is going to run Adamant. If you're going to throw out calculations, at least make them realistically applicable.

Jolly still does 46.4 minimum, so it cannot switch into (assuming SR which is fair) a facade unless it is 100% healthy

 

[Meru]

Jolly still does 46.4 minimum, so it cannot switch into (assuming SR which is fair) a facade unless it is 100% healthy

I'm fine with that, just don't say Heracross is gonna run Adamant on a non-scarfed set and lose to half the tier.