np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[Kingclown50]

Garchomp was banned because with Sand Veil, you basically had a 20% chance to dodge any 100% accurate attack, which more than likely means good game, whether directly (Garchomp sweep) or indirectly (weakened counters for another dragon, etc).

Whereas something like Mamoswine or Froslass is not going to do anything that detrimental to the other team with one miss. There is a point where banning everything that causes luck to be involved is too far, and banning Snow Cloak/Snow Warning because of Snow Cloak is that point in my opinion.

edit: Banning Brightpowder solely because it raises Evasion, despite no one using it, no Pokemon becoming broken because of it, etc. was a bad decision. If people want to use Brightpowder and lose 80% of the time, then I'm fine with that.

 

[Scoopapa]

Whereas something like Mamoswine or Froslass is not going to do anything that detrimental to the other team with one miss. There is a point where banning everything that causes luck to be involved is too far, and banning Snow Cloak/Snow Warning because of Snow Cloak is that point in my opinion.

Well Mamoswine is almost certainly going to use that miss to get a KO, which I would consider "detrimental". With Froslass you're only looking at an extra set of spikes, but with Froslass it often isn't "just one miss". Froslass is going to be spamming Sub and potentially even packing Thunder Wave, so often the Snow Cloak hax is going to mean more than one free turn, especially if it catches you with Thunder Wave. Both are able to cause enough damage (directly and through hazards) that a miss do to snow cloak could cost you the game.

The problem with evasion (as opposed to accuracy) is that the opponent has no control over the risk. If your team is built around Stone Edge, Focus Blast, and Hydro Pump, it is understandable that you will lose a lot to misses. If your only counter to a certain mon relies on low accuracy moves, it should be understandable that your ability to counter that mon is somewhat shaky. However, when something dodges 20% of moves automatically, there is essentially no counter that isn't "shaky". It's not exactly uncommon for a single free turn to decide a match, so a lot of matches can have their outcomes turned by a miss due to Snow Cloak. A lot of people view this as un-competitive, since that luck is likely to play a key role in the match and there isn't even a "conservative option" for your opponent to avoid taking that risk.

 

[SJCrew]

What I'm starting to gather from this discussion is not the fact that Hail itself is broken, but that Froslass and Mamoswine are good to a level where free evasion is basically the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, if you think about it, the 100% Blizzards aren't making anyone cry, and Walrein isn't doing anything without 20 layers of hazards, a weakened team, and dead counters. Where are those hazards coming from? Froslass. Mamoswine doesn't really have counters under clear skies either, and you're already relying on good prediction and smart switching to beat it. Close Combat misses? Forget about it.

I think we can keep Hail as a legitimate playstyle in UU because honestly, it's not at all powerful or dominant, and doesn't have much going for it to begin with. You're working with the worst defensive type in the game, tanks that lose their leftovers recovery, and an SR weakness on your main players, which makes Rapid Spin mandatory. Based on that, it's pretty hard to make a good and proper Hail team period unless you go Abomasnow/Walrein/Hitmontop/Nidoqueen/Froslass/filler, which can get eaten alive pretty quickly by an offensive Fire-type or boosting sweeper faster than Froslass.

Remember, UU didn't have Mamoswine last gen, and Froslass was really on every team besides Hail. Considering we now have a stronger, more adaptable metagame, it wouldn't even be a stretch to say Hail in general would fall into complete disuse without the clout of its most broken abusers. Unlike Drizzle, we can narrow those down to two, and not have to resort to a combo ban or any other drastic proposal. I plan to vote against Snow Warning's ban this round and instead focus on Mamoswine and Froslass next round so we can put that theory to the test.

 

[PokéMontage]

Well Mamoswine is officially in OU now, so maybe Hail won't be as bad.

 

[Avira]

Well Mamoswine is officially in OU now, so maybe Hail won't be as bad.

No, it isn't. You need the July stats to be out before Mamoswine can be bumped into OU.

 

[PokéMontage]

With the huge bump he received, I'm sure he'll still be up there. I suppose you never know, though.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Mamoswine being likely to go up to OU next tier list update certainly will help nerf Hail a little bit.

However, for all intents and purposes, I think we should carry on as if it's not going anywhere.

 

[Pancham]

Mamoswine being likely to go up to OU next tier list update certainly will help nerf Hail a little bit.

However, for all intents and purposes, I think we should carry on as if it's not going anywhere.

The possibility of Porygon2, Tornadus, Whimsicott and Machamp entering UU while Celebi, Mamswine and Espeon leave is kind of... Making me want to give Mamoswine, Espeon and Celebi back to UU in exchange for those mons listed staying in OU. :(

Porygon2 will be poison in UU....

 

[Avira]

The possibility of Porygon2, Tornadus, Whimsicott and Machamp entering UU while Celebi, Mamswine and Espeon leave is kind of... Making me want to give Mamoswine, Espeon and Celebi back to UU in exchange for those mons listed staying in OU. :(

Porygon2 will be poison in UU....

You horribly overestimate the power of P-2, Tornadus, Whimsicott, and Machamp (Especially P-2 and Whimsicott). Celebi, Espeon, and Mamoswine, which are likely to leave after the next tiering update are all better Pokemon than the 4 that you listed.

 

[Pancham]

You horribly overestimate the power of P-2, Tornadus, Whimsicott, and Machamp (Especially P-2 and Whimsicott). Celebi, Espeon, and Mamoswine, which are likely to leave after the next tiering update are all better Pokemon than the 4 that you listed.

I highly doubt you'll be spewing those words if they do drop next month. :)

 

[BurnyBlueBear]

porygon 2 is the bane of my existance, its like porygon ate chansey, and coerced gardevoir to give it trace, though, its not as bulky as chansey, i still hate it please kill it T-T

 

[Gerard]

Porygon 2 will be a nice Chansey replacement, and Machamp is retarted and i hate him, but he won't pass Duskclops anytime soon

 

[Leman]

I'm way more scared of Raikou next round, if Chansey leaves and even more so if Celebi leaves too. SubCM uses P2 as set up bait (the old 4th gen 128HP isn't broken by P2's Ice Beams ever unless he has max SAtk), and I cant think of anything that walls Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Aura Sphere/Calm Mind@LO, except Quagsire, and Specially Defensive Gastrodon (and HP Grass is very viable). The regular Special walls are 2HKOed by Aura Sphere (like Snorlax and Registeel) and everything else is hit really hard by Thunderbolt. And he gets perfect coverage outside of Shedinja.

 

[TLK]

Leman is right. If Chansey leaves, Raikou will destroy the metagame. The LO CM set is particularly devastating.

 

[Mishra]

Leman is right. If Chansey leaves, Raikou will destroy the metagame. The LO CM set is particularly devastating.

Then Raikou should also be boarderline. Even though people in OU don't agree with an uber Ferrathorn, as he is just really good, the "glue" argument is not a good reason for ferrathorn, nor is a good argument for chansey to remain in the tier. It is just as bogus as the "over centralization" argument.

I agree though, pokes like Raikou, Azelf, and perhaps more pokes then we think are held by the pink blob. If one or some are not active due to chansey, I don't believe leaving chansey alone just to keep these guys in is the best idea.

 

[breh]

uhhh perish song celebi?

the metagame will find weird checks

(also if its sub is down, scarf hera checks)

 

[Katakiri]

| 1 | Staraptor | 17896 | 19.0643 |
| 2 | Donphan | 14334 | 15.2697 |
| 3 | Hitmontop | 14261 | 15.1920 |
______________________________________

| 64 | Rotom | 2745 | 2.9242 |

UU, you're not even trying to be a respectable metagame. I need to just laugh my way to the top of the ladder this month to prove a point.

 

[PttP]

please do so, almighty user Katakiri.

 

[Gerard]

uhhh perish song celebi?

the metagame will find weird checks

(also if its sub is down, scarf hera checks)

HP ice, even if you survive, if you switch, your celebi is probably dead now and raikou can try again

 

[fairytale]

| 1 | Staraptor | 17896 | 19.0643 |
| 2 | Donphan | 14334 | 15.2697 |
| 3 | Hitmontop | 14261 | 15.1920 |
______________________________________

| 64 | Rotom | 2745 | 2.9242 |

UU, you're not even trying to be a respectable metagame. I need to just laugh my way to the top of the ladder this month to prove a point.

The thing is, Rotom is far too frail to reliably counter Staraptor. It has that sexy typing, but it's almost always 2HKO'd by Staraptor's CB Brave Bird after rocks, and occasionally 2HKO'd by LO Brave Bird. That's with 252/252 Bold and Leftovers. It can cockblock most Hitmontop and Donphan, but so can a lot of ghosts. Thus its usage.

 

[SJCrew]

Rotom is weak, slow and has bad defenses. Its typing alone doesn't make it a good Pokemon, and if it underperforms, it's not getting used. Go ahead and use it to counter Raptor and get wrecked by Brave Bird.

 

[Leman]

uhhh perish song celebi?

the metagame will find weird checks

(also if its sub is down, scarf hera checks)

Celebi doesn't check Raikou at all. :(

Turn 1 Raikou uses Calm Mind, Celebi Switches in
Turn 2 Raikou uses HP Ice (LO Rash does 53% min to 252/252+) Celebi uses Perish Song
Turn 3 Raikou uses HP Ice KO

So I guess you forced out Raikou, but you lost your Celebi. I'd rather use Thunder Wave.

 

[TLK]

Then Raikou should also be boarderline. Even though people in OU don't agree with an uber Ferrathorn, as he is just really good, the "glue" argument is not a good reason for ferrathorn, nor is a good argument for chansey to remain in the tier. It is just as bogus as the "over centralization" argument.

I agree though, pokes like Raikou, Azelf, and perhaps more pokes then we think are held by the pink blob. If one or some are not active due to chansey, I don't believe leaving chansey alone just to keep these guys in is the best idea.

Oh I absolutely agree that Chansey shouldn't stay just because it counters Raikou, I just thought it was worth pointing out. Having said that, I ran Specially Defensive Registeel and it did a good job against some of the more dangerous stat boosting special sweepers like Mismagius (dies horribly to the Taunt/Will-o-Wisp/Pain Split sets though) and Raikou (even Aura Sphere doesn't KO with +1 LO, and it can T-Wave and get a hit off before going down).



And I'm still laughing at the moron talking as if Rotom is a counter to Staraptor. Yeah right. Go out and actually play UU instead of trying to convince people that the most broken Pokemon in the tier is fine.

 

[breh]

fair enough, physical gastrodon or rhyperior (not OHKOed by +1 Aura Sphere and can break its sub with rock blast)

if it's running HP grass, celebi

scout for hp grass then do whatever. aura sphere doesnt do much to gastrodon.

hell, if you want you can use golurk with excessive special bulk.

it's not like raikou is impossible to kill with any team without chansey.

you guys are exaggerating.

 

[114]

Celebi doesn't check Raikou at all. :(

Turn 1 Raikou uses Calm Mind, Celebi Switches in
Turn 2 Raikou uses HP Ice (LO Rash does 53% min to 252/252+) Celebi uses Perish Song
Turn 3 Raikou uses HP Ice KO

So I guess you forced out Raikou, but you lost your Celebi. I'd rather use Thunder Wave.

When Raikou gets volt absorb...