np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

[Conflict]

Mishra you are retarded.

Innapropriate.

Its right though. You should maybe trust my word because i have way more experience than you? If you cant play around Chansey you are just bad - nothing less. And SubNP-Mismagius isnt specialized to beat Chansey - thats the only good set of Mismagius in this Metagame (TauntWoW is outclassed by Mew).

You are dumb for thinking Chansey can only be beaten by Fighting-Attacks (with Stab). Whenever someone brings an argument or Pokemon which can setup/obliterate Chansey you say "but chansey can switch out bee beee" which is true for any Pokemon and their counters out there thus your argument lost all of its weight.

I dont know why you guys always want to OHKO Chansey. Chansey is SETUP-BAIT not ITHASTOBEOHKOED..... Use Stuff that sets up on Chansey and you wont have any problems.....

 

[LupeWilde]

Its right though. You should maybe trust my word because i have way more experience than you? If you cant play around Chansey you are just bad - nothing less. And SubNP-Mismagius isnt specialized to beat Chansey - thats the only good set of Mismagius in this Metagame (TauntWoW is outclassed by Mew).

You are dumb for thinking Chansey can only be beaten by Fighting-Attacks (with Stab). Whenever someone brings an argument or Pokemon which can setup/obliterate Chansey you say "but chansey can switch out bee beee" which is true for any Pokemon and their counters out there thus your argument lost all of its weight.

I dont know why you guys always want to OHKO Chansey. Chansey is SETUP-BAIT not ITHASTOBEOHKOED..... Use Stuff that sets up on Chansey and you wont have any problems.....

Your exactly right

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ah the psycho-shock, well played.

It can be 1HKOed, so it should switch out, because it can't do well anything, and then its set up on, isn't that what all counters do? Fighting types are just an example of a very good counter.

 

[Shroomisaur]

I tink that victini should stay because a simple bulky lanturn is a perfect counter to it, physical or special set (victini)

Seriously? With V-Create, there is little reason to run a Special Victini set. Lanturn may be immune to Fusion Bolt, but let's check a "simple" maximum 252/252+ Bold Lanturn (which no one uses...) against Victini:

252 Adamant Scarf V-Create (in Sun): 44.3% - 52.2%
252 Timid Band V-Create (in Sun): 54.4% - 64.1%

Even a maximally physically-bulky Lanturn has absolutely no business coming in against Victini. And without any speed or SpA investment, Lanturn isn't doing anything back. Victini in sun is just absurdly powerful.

@above regarding Chansey, I agree with Conflict's point. Anything with 101 subs, taunt, or immunity/indifference to status sets up on Chansey. Golurk happens to be an ideal Pokemon for the job, with immunity to SToss, TWave, and a powerful Iron Fist sub-Punch.

 

[Mishra]

Its right though.

So, I'm, retarded?

You should maybe trust my word because i have way more experience than you? If you cant play around Chansey you are just bad - nothing less. And SubNP-Mismagius isnt specialized to beat Chansey - thats the only good set of Mismagius in this Metagame (TauntWoW is outclassed by Mew).

Name calling is not exactly the way to inspire confidence. And how do you know you have more experience, because of your post count? NP Mismagius is pretty much outclassed by azelf, who has better speed, better movepool, and the only thing that mismagius has is better special d. The best set I have seen for mismag is a subcm set.

You are dumb for thinking Chansey can only be beaten by Fighting-Attacks (with Stab). Whenever someone brings an argument or Pokemon which can setup/obliterate Chansey you say "but chansey can switch out bee beee" which is true for any Pokemon and their counters out there thus your argument lost all of its weight.

Except that unlike other pokemon that have been banned before, chansey is a wall. Look at Blazeken, without the sun, you could switch in SD azumaril to revenge kill, which would force ken out, but would also make blaze have to start from scratch again. He would have to look for the oppertunity.

The issue I see with your complaints is that your are treating chansey like a sweeper, when he is in fact a wall. Looking at comparison to chansey, as composed to Salamence or even Blazeken, switching out does not cause as much of a loss to Chansey then a sweeper that needs to set up again.

I also said that there were things I could have forgotten to mention, but chansey is not an out of the blue ban. There have been other servers who have in fact, banned chansey and had better fighters than what we have currently.

I dont know why you guys always want to OHKO Chansey. Chansey is SETUP-BAIT not ITHASTOBEOHKOED..... Use Stuff that sets up on Chansey and you wont have any problems.....

Again, sweeper =/= wall. The criteria to ban a wall is much different than a sweeper.

And even if you do have more experience, that doesn't make you auto-right. I am not going to pretend that I am the all knowing expert, but I believe I have enough experience to call something out for being a problem. Whether it is or not is another issue entirely, and the point of this thread is to discuss potential problems.

 

[Cinccino]

How if the Lanturn used Stockpile? Can it survive from being 2HKOed? Lanturn can use 2nd Stockpile after V-Create speed drop.

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
Nature & EVs: Bold. 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
- Stockpile
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Hydro Pump

...
Call me crazy.

 

[Mishra]

How if the Lanturn used Stockpile? Can it survive from being 2HKOed? Lanturn can use 2nd Stockpile after V-Create speed drop.

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
Nature & EVs: Bold. 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
- Stockpile
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Hydro Pump

...
Call me crazy.

That ev spread doesn't have enough speed. Even banded Vicini would still be faster after -1. You would have to run at least 100 EVs to speed (too lazy to figure out the exact amount), or less with a +speed nature to be faster than banded -1, but at that point, you lose enough bulk where lanturn is cleanly 2HKOed.

 

[Conflict]

Mismagius is a ghost, that alone makes it viable. It has 2 immunities more than Azelf to set up on.

You can believe me that i KNOW that chansey isnt a sweeper i used it pretty effectively in DPP UU for example.

Ok, then let me tell you some super-secret strategies to beat Chansey:

Taunt+Recovery
101Subs with Lefties (Suicune, Celebi, Mew, etc.)
Sub or Taunt + Ghosttype
some crazy strong attacker who 2hkos or ohkos threatening Chansey
Trick
Knock off
NP+Psyshock
(T-)Spikes with phazing
some physical Sweeper who doesnt mind Toxic that much and withstands 1-2 Stoss with SD
Sweepers with things like ChestoRest
Block+ Setupmove or Toxic
Leech Seed
Magic Guard + Recovery + Setupmove or strong Move with much PP

I could think of more but maybe you got the idea by now? There are plenty of ways around Chansey you just have to use them.

 

[Thunderhorse]

How if the Lanturn used Stockpile? Can it survive from being 2HKOed? Lanturn can use 2nd Stockpile after V-Create speed drop.

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
Nature & EVs: Bold. 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
- Stockpile
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Hydro Pump

...
Call me crazy.

Not with your EV spread it won't. Jolly Band 252 Atk/252 Speed Victinti with -1 speed sits at 211 speed. Your Lanturn above will be at 170-171 speed (depending on whether your Spd stands for Special Defense or Speed), so even after a V-Create it will be slower than Victini. You would need to invest 168 Speed EVs into Lanturn to be able to guarantee it being faster than Victini after a V-Create, and that's not doing your HP or Defense stat any favors.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Mishra...though I did figure out the exact amount of EVs needed to beat Victini at least! :D

 

[LupeWilde]

i thought that V-Create was physical, either way i didnt know it had a 180 bp

 

[Virizion]

Seriously? With V-Create, there is little reason to run a Special Victini set. Lanturn may be immune to Fusion Bolt, but let's check a "simple" maximum 252/252+ Bold Lanturn (which no one uses...) against Victini:

252 Adamant Scarf V-Create (in Sun): 44.3% - 52.2%
252 Timid Band V-Create (in Sun): 54.4% - 64.1%

Even a maximally physically-bulky Lanturn has absolutely no business coming in against Victini. And without any speed or SpA investment, Lanturn isn't doing anything back. Victini in sun is just absurdly powerful.

@above regarding Chansey, I agree with Conflict's point. Anything with 101 subs, taunt, or immunity/indifference to status sets up on Chansey. Golurk happens to be an ideal Pokemon for the job, with immunity to SToss, TWave, and a powerful Iron Fist sub-Punch.

Timid with Band is a bad idea. You want Hasty/Naïve if you're mixed, or Jolly if you're purely Physical.

 

[Cinccino]

Hmm that's interesting. Maybe a good EV spread would still work... Or not...

EDIT: Occa Berry. It's too situational though.

 

[Forte.EXE]

Timid with Band is a bad idea. You want Hasty/Naïve if you're mixed, or Jolly if you're purely Physical.

I think he was just making a point that even -Atk natured Victini could beat Chansey.

 

[LupeWilde]

are u serious? thats powerul!

 

[Leman]

I don't see the problem with using Chansey as set up bait. That's usually the problem with a sweeper. SubMismagius, Gorluk, Kyurem, Espeon, Snorlax, Escavalier, Cobalion, Heracross, Hariyama, all can switch on healing/support moves, and set up, most have enough HP to not care about SToss and a good deal of them, (Snorlax, Heracross, Hariyama) don't give a shit about status either. And then you can always trap it with Duggy. Or Pursuit it with Swellow (who is immune to status), Drapion, Escavalier or Absol. Or Psyshock it. (Blah blah blah Azelf 4HKOs, after an NP its 48.01%-56.54 - by doubling your calc, I get much higher, what calc are you using? - which is a clean 2HKO with Rocks, and I could just as well run Taunt) Or you can Trick it (Alakazam, Sygliph, Azelf, PorygonZ, Mismagius, Mew) And then its kind of helpless against the main abusers of sun, like Victini, Arcanine, Sawsbuck, Tangrowth, Houndoom (who wins with Beat Up). Our Taunted and set up on (Drapion, Mew, Deoxys-D, Azelf, Froslass).

And saying Mismagius is outclassed by Mew and Azelf is bullshit. Mismagius has three immunities to work with, and therefore can switch in and shift momentum and stuff a lot easier than any of those Psychic types, has the ability to block spins, which, with incredibly good but, SR weak sweepers like Kyurem, Victini, Arcanine, Zapdos etc running around, is very, very helpful. Those immunities are also the ones that let it shit all over Chansey. Yeah, they're all fast, frail, Pursuit weak set up sweepers, but their niches are completely different.

 

[Unbreakable]

The problem with V-Create is that one of the stats that drops after the hit is SDef, and if you're running V-Create, the EV and nature are that of a bog standard physical sweeper, with the classic trade-off between Adamant and Jolly. This combined with bad defensive typing means that your best move is often to switch out after the first use, and depending on what's left of your opponent's team, some mind games can ensue.

Of more concern: Why would you switch Lanturn into sun when its main STAB is Water unless you had no other choice?

I personally want to see more people pick up Krookodile. I've run calculations, and a Scarfed Jolly specimen with max atk/speed is guaranteed to not only outspeed Reshiram, but OHKO 4/0 variants with Earthquake after Stealth Rock. The thing is so versatile, having Intimidate to act as a check to physical threats or Moxie to be a revenge killer by day, physical sweeper by night.

 

[LupeWilde]

moxie>intimidate, what physical attack from an uber can krookodile survive after an intimidate?

 

[Shroomisaur]

Timid with Band is a bad idea. You want Hasty/Naïve if you're mixed, or Jolly if you're purely Physical.

I think he was just making a point that even -Atk natured Victini could beat Chansey.

Yes (although the calcs were vs. Lanturn, showing that even a 252/252+ resist is 2HKO'd by a timid Band Victini). I should have made that a bit more clear.

The problem with V-Create is that one of the stats that drops after the hit is SDef, and if you're running V-Create, the EV and nature are that of a bog standard physical sweeper, with the classic trade-off between Adamant and Jolly. This combined with bad defensive typing means that your best move is often to switch out after the first use, and depending on what's left of your opponent's team, some mind games can ensue.

The speed drop is a large reason why Scarf is so popular, because even after the drop, the opponent must be >100 base speed or scarfed themselves to revenge. Also, TR Victini actually benefits from the drops!

Of more concern: Why would you switch Lanturn into sun when its main STAB is Water unless you had no other choice?

I personally want to see more people pick up Krookodile. I've run calculations, and a Scarfed Jolly specimen with max atk/speed is guaranteed to not only outspeed Reshiram, but OHKO 4/0 variants with Earthquake after Stealth Rock. The thing is so versatile, having Intimidate to act as a check to physical threats or Moxie to be a revenge killer by day, physical sweeper by night.

It's funny that you mention this, just as I was creating a Krookodile set for use in UU. I agree it needs more use (dunno what you're talking about Reshiram for?) but it has a powerful and fast Earthquake, and Pursuit to deal with all the Psychics in UU. Moxie paired with Pursuit is simply a wonderful combination. Beyond a simple Scarf revenger set (which is very effective), I was looking at this:

Krookodile @ Dark Gem
Moxie
Adamant / Jolly
252 Attack, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Crunch

Using Dark Gem + Pursuit gives you a hugely powerful trapping move to use, say, on a Band Victini after it uses V-Create. It is really synergistic with Moxie, because assuming the boosted Pursuit (180 power) takes out the fleeing target, you now are sitting with a 50% boost to ALL of your moves thanks to Moxie - and you aren't LOCKED into anything! Alternatively, it could be used to boost Crunch to cleanly OHKO Slowbro.

I was also thinking about trying this on Honchkrow since it also has access to Moxie, as well as Sucker Punch. Thoughts?

 

[capefeather]

Isn't Dark Gem consumed after one attack? You might want whatever the Dark-type plate is called...

 

[jas61292]

Isn't Dark Gem consumed after one attack? You might want whatever the Dark-type plate is called...

It is, but I think the point of the Dark Gem was to guarantee getting one KO with Pursuit (in case they stay in you'd need the extra power) because once you get that you get a Moxie boost for all your moves. I didn't to any calcs, so I can't say for sure its better though. But if Dark Gem can guarantee a KO on -1 Defense Victini or somthing even if it stays in, and other items can't it could be worth it.

 

[Shroomisaur]

It is, but I think the point of the Dark Gem was to guarantee getting one KO with Pursuit (in case they stay in you'd need the extra power) because once you get that you get a Moxie boost for all your moves. I didn't to any calcs, so I can't say for sure its better though. But if Dark Gem can guarantee a KO on -1 Defense Victini or somthing even if it stays in, and other items can't it could be worth it.

Yes, this was my reasoning. I'm going to have to run some calcs to see if it nets KOs that Dark Plate would miss (will edit this post). I just really dislike choiced pursuit, so this seemed to work great with Moxie.

EDIT: Adamant Dark Gem Pursuit:
vs fleeing -1 Victini: 175.4% - 207%, staying in: 88.3% - 104.1%
vs fleeing 252 HP Mew: OHKO
vs fleeing 252/252+ Slowbro: 103.6% - 121.8%

Adamant Blackglasses Pursuit:
vs fleeing -1 Victini: 117.5% - 138.6%, staying in: 59.6% - 70.2%
vs fleeing 252 HP Mew: 99.5% - 117.3%
vs fleeing 252/252+ Slowbro: 68.5% - 81.2%

So obviously Dark Gem is unnecessary against Victini. Otherwise something else like LO or Blackglasses would be best. Good call capefeather.

 

[jas61292]

Yes, this was my reasoning. I'm going to have to run some calcs to see if it nets KOs that Dark Plate would miss (will edit this post). I just really dislike choiced pursuit, so this seemed to work great with Moxie.

I just did a basic calc for Victini. Assuming it is at -1 Def, and has no more than the leftover 4 EVs in Def, then unfortunately, even Adamant with a Dark Gem will not guarantee a OHKO if it stays in. However, if you had Stealth Rocks out when Victini came in, then Dark Gem will net you the KO with either Adamant or Jolly Krookodile, which Dread Plate cannot do (There is a chance to get the KO with Dread Plate, but its not exactly likely).

 

[Gerard]

Resuming a little bit...

Suspects:

Vulpix
Reason: Drough
Sun makes many pokes really powerfull, victini is just the tip of the iceberg, many a little underrated but just as powerfull fire and grass types are just as good cresselia, arcanine, espeon, chloropyll sweepers, fyre types, even Rock and Gound types (because having their water weekness removed) benefit from it not another weather in UU is as good and with growth and double speed makes average and good pokes just stupidly powerful

Kyurem
Reason: Way Overpowered/ Versatility
Kyu can function as a Specs hit and run poke, a scarfed revenger, a bulky sweeper, a mixed LO stall-breaker and a phazer. It has a large amount of options and I don't see any poke that can handle all of them at once, whit just chansey being able to take the Focus Blast/Blizzard/Draco Meteor combo he's way over the edge, the fact that even cansey is not a foolprof plan since he has the Sub/Claw sharpen and the mixed set (and he can swich) just to have to predict what set is running it's just ridiculous, one bad prediction costs you one poke, it's just like murkrow in LC (many effective sets, and no real counters)


Possible suspects: (this at least need one more round of suspect testing)

Victini:
He deserves a trial in a drough-less enviroment, for now just based in sheer power he is clearly broken, obvioulsy V-create is an awesome attack, but witout the sun it might be more like Salamence's outrage than specs latias Draco Meteor, but i want him for at least one round to see if he's just as broken whitout the sun or in hail/sand/no weather he is manegable, it should be this way and no the other way around

Chansey
Great support pokemon, maybe a little too god, still, is she as broken in an enviroment where stuff like heracross is fairly unusable because of drough, and stall has to deal with a lot more treaths and not just the same 3 teams, is she just as powerful? people hasn't take the time to find counters since they have to have counters for drough and kyu, if the meta settles i think we can see if she's in fact too much for UU

Mew
Powerful and versitile, it may not seem broken NOW, but it's a great poke and there's always the chance whitout other broken stuff holding him down he'll have too much power (or just even more versatility than Kyu), he was banned in other server, but that's not an argument in favor or against him (that also goes to chansey)


What are your suspects? (if you can try to use a format like this c:)

 

[jas61292]

Vulpix
Reason: Drought
Sun makes many pokes really powerful, victini is just the tip of the iceberg, many a little underrated but just as powerfull fire and grass types are just as good cresselia, arcanine, espeon, chloropyll sweepers, fire types, even Rock and Ground types (because having their water weakness removed) benefit from it not another weather in UU is as good and with growth and double speed makes average and good pokes just stupidly powerful

Possible suspects: (this at least need one more round of suspect testing)

Victini:
He deserves a trial in a drought-less environment, for now just based in sheer power he is clearly broken, obviously V-create is an awesome attack, but without the sun it might be more like Salamence's outrage than specs Latias Draco Meteor, but i want him for at least one round to see if he's just as broken without the sun or in hail/sand/no weather he is manageable, it should be this way and no the other way around

Personally, I think it is the other way around. The main question is, does sun break Victini, or does Victini break sun, or neither. If you have seen any of my post about Rain in the OU thread, you would know that I prefer to ban individual Pokemon over play styles. Additionally, I have never had any real problems with Sun other than Victini, so I really don't think it is broken in the first place. I that if we get rid of anything, Victini should go first.

As for other things, Kyurem is not necessarily overpowering, but the fact that it can be incredible at many things makes me think it may need to go. Chansey is another one that I believe at least needs to be voted on. Its like having an even better version of Blissey in UU, since damaging weather is less common, making the loss of leftovers less important. When something with base 5 defense can survive a super effective CB Heracross's Close Combat, I think we have a problem.

 

[Gerard]

I guide myself the same way i did in PO, no victini's v-create but vulpix still got the boot, people is so focused on victini's v-create on the sun (awesome and absolutely deserves the hype) and forgets that after victini goes sun stays, and sun boosted 120 BP move is just as powerfull, and many pokes have better attack than victini so they can do just as much damage, victribell's growth/vine whip/weather ball/sludge wave set is damn powerfull and tangrowt is a bitch under the sun, just because victini is the best bastard around doesn't mean sun is not broken, it's just like in OU, SS+Drizzle was banned, but manaphy was still banned, and people still complains about drizzle, unless you ban Chloropyll+drough (something i'm completely against) you'll still have problems with some pokes being relly powerfull

*at least Po had terakion and stuff like it, this UU doesn't even get that chance