NP: UU - Silent Night

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Matthew

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Meru your argument is one dimensional. If you're going to play Arcanine vs Moltres you have to look at the fact that Arcanine is going to be switching into Moltres, and since most run intimidate (as you should), then you're taking 42.5% - 50.1% from a Life Orb Fire Blast off of a timid Moltres, (i'm using the Morning Glory EVs, so w/e if you want just straight physical then it's 46.1% - 54.5% from a Timid LO Fire Blast), Coming into anything, bar Hidden Power Grass means you're probably going to lose your Arcanine, unless you're running Flash Fire, which seems silly since Intimidate is one of the best abilities there is.

Max attack EVs from a Jolly LO Arcanine deals 56.1% - 66% to a Moltres, but i don't know why you'd switch Moltres into Arcanine anyway, I wouldn't want to get Toxic'd at all.
 
I'll end with this: There are many Pokemon that are just as bulky (if not bulkier) and hard (if not harder) to switch into like Venusaur, Moltres is just one example. Why is Venusaur being pushed for BL for these reasons when it applies to others at least equally as much?

EDIT: and that set is not even remotely common.
 

FlareBlitz

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This is really fucking stupid. I thought the shaymin/moltres comparison in the previous metagame was bad, was venusaur/moltres is way worse. I don't give a fuck what the comparison is meant to illustrate, they are two completely different pokemon with entirely different playstyles and characteristics and comparing them dooms any attempt at a serious point right from the beginning.

If you want to compare something to Venusaur, compare Roserade. Compare Vileplume. Compare Venomoth. Compare sceptile even. There are so many other pokemon that could be a relevant comparison that I am flabbergasted that a discussion comparing it to moltres has lasted this long. Jesus christ guys.

Anyway.....I think people's primary problem with Venusaur is that it gets a fairly accurate sleep move and that makes it really difficult to play around when combined with its relative versatility, and this is more or less true. The relevant question is: what can it do once it sleeps something?

Let's look at Roserade. Roserade could do most of the things that Venusaur could do, but better. It could also start spamming hazards, which is always nice. Now, I always thought that Roserade was broken, even with Yanmega around to check it, but the primary reason for that was the special attack (and, to a lesser extent, speed). Guys, the difference is huge. 100 v 125 is insane, Modest Roserade has more special attack without investing a single EV point than Timid Venusaur does with max investment, and Timid Roserade has nearly as much (needs like 52 EVs to reach Venusaur). I mean, the power differential is absurd.

LO Venusaur's Sludge Bomb against 4/0 Arcanine: 53.2% - 62.8%
LO Rosie's against same: 69.5% - 82.2%.

That's the difference between Arcanine going "huh that kinda hurt" before healing it off with Morning Sun and it going "holy shit i have a good chance of dying to that".

There's also this fun little calculation:

LO Venusaur's Leaf Storm versus 4/0 Toxicroak: 56.7% - 67.1%
LO Rosie's against same: 66.4% - 78.2%

Makes a hell of a difference when Rosie can outspeed and finish it with a follow up Sludge Bomb while Venusaur can't even do that even if it manages to survive the incoming Ice Punch.

Basically my point is that Roserade's power and speed are so important to how it functions that even though it and Venusaur are functionally identical in the "special sweeper" aspect, Roserade stepped over the line into "broken" where Venusaur...didn't. This is pretty much why I think the strongest argument in the venusaur-for-BL camp isn't quite up to par.
 

breh

強いだね
Well.. this may be just shoddy players I'm going against, but... I haven't seen many venusaurs on the ladder in a long while. No, I'm quite serious. I have a decent 1446 CRE, yet the only ones that I've seen have mostly been in the lead spot. Anybody else notice this? (Milotic is populous as ever, though.. more for Leafeon to KO lol)

Anyway why would you guys want to ban Venusaur? I mean I know it's good but it's not bannable good. I mean really all I do is just save my mesprit lead (which scares most venusaur anyway), let it get slept, and go from there (I run that awesome SpD arcanine btw... stalling out milotics is really, really cool). Really if you let venusaur sleep death fodder, then you've neutered it. A restalker screws it over too.

To put it shortly, venusaur is stopped from being anywhere near broken by the sleep clause. Also it has that unfortunate base 80 speed - this is notable in that only 3 BLs have less than or equal to 80 base speed (Honch and Gallade both hit like trucks while Obama is snover... + the ability to do damage)

And lol, comparing it to moltres

Otherwise, anybody else use Articuno (it's oddly viable; counters Venu !00% with the sleep clause; it's hilarious to outstall slower Aggron or Rhyperior), Entei (CM Rest FTW), Leafeon, and SpD Arcanine? I've been testing SubSplit Gardevoir (trace+Clefable = :D) and Ampharos, which are pretty cool too.
 
I'm agreeing with FlareBlitz. While there are many ways for Venusaur to be used, most of which are very effective, they aren't so strong that Venusaur is broken. I've found many ways to deal with Venusaur, so I don't find it that big of a deal. It does have many advantages, but I believe that the different ways to counter it mostly cancel them out.

Example: I've had many Venusaur, mostly Special LO versions, switch in on my Technitop when I use Mach Punch. I run Aerial Ace to counteract this problem. Mach Punch+Aerial Ace always defeats Special LO variants, leaving the enemy vunerable to my DD Feraligatr, CB Azumarill, or whatever Water sweeper I have ready.

This is only one of my ways to beat it, but I'm just stating my opinion on it. I've been reading the argument with great interest, and I would love to more people posting their arguments on Venusaur.

EDIT: @Breludicolo: I've noticed the lack of Venusaurs as well. Also, I haven't recently used any of the Pokemon you've asked about people using, although I did encounter a CM RestTalk Entei. It's a good set, and I will admit that I've had my team swept by it.
Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed that there are more NU Pokemon being used? I've seen Quick Feet Ursaring, more and more Venomoth leads, and I was even surprised to find a Curse+Heal Bell Miltank, which is one of the last sets in the Miltank analysis. I ended up having a stalling war with it, because it just wouldn't die. I finally managed to get it to Struggle to death. It was that bad.
 
Eh... i don't have a strong opinion on all that, so i'll just comment my shit.


FlareBlitz, you say the Moltres/Venusaur comparsions are bad, but i do remember you long long time ago trying to compare the standard Arcanine to Rest Talk Entei... i mean, they're also completely different regardless of both having the same typing...

That aside: i think the main difference Venusaur and Roserade had is that while Roserade is much more dangerous, Venusaur is more versatile (speaking about both pokes as a whole).
Roserade offers much more offensive power than Venusaur, at the point UU couldn't handle it easily (especially with Natural Cure buying it some free switches).
Venusaur has more versatility... but the versatility doesn't mean much when Venusaur ends up having the same counters... which he probably does.


I'll hide my next comment because it adds little do the discussion (it's not really a argument) in my opinion, but i feel like saying it anyway:

It looks like Salamence X Dragonite comparsions: one is bulkier and way more versatile, but the other one spelled "danger" all over the place (and has a better ability too), mostly outclassing the other one with almost every set available. And look at Salamence now; he's Uber!



Also, it's possible that special LO Venusaur is it's best set, and it's so good that people are discussing about this set being so strong and possibly broken.

So, take this set and give it to a poke with even higher stats and better ability with the same moves...
Yeah, Roserade was broken.

Probably i'm just repeating something already said here... but hey.



@ FlashRider57: i guess more NU pokes are being used because the meta is basically the same for, like, half year. There's plenty room now for testing.
 

FlareBlitz

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FlareBlitz, you say the Moltres/Venusaur comparsions are bad, but i do remember you long long time ago trying to compare the standard Arcanine to Rest Talk Entei... i mean, they're also completely different regardless of both having the same typing...
...no.

Shrang posted a sunnybeam Entei set for QC and I pointed out that it was almost completely outclassed by Arcanine, Moltres, etc.

I also pointed out that he needed to emphasize the advantages of using Entei over Arcanine in general.

Not only was that horribly off-topic and irrelevant (and I guess this is too, by extension), it wasn't even a proper criticism of my consistency. I thought you were trying to be a better poster?
 

Meru

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How do offense teams deal with Alakazam without using Spiritomb and/or a buttload of priority?

I'm not trying to say Alakazam is broken so please don't make a tangent off about that. I'm just looking for possibilities to add to my team to deal with him.
 

shrang

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Shrang posted a sunnybeam Entei set for QC and I pointed out that it was almost completely outclassed by Arcanine, Moltres, etc.
It actually isn't, since CM makes him better in some ways, but that's beside the point (You could give some more input in that thread anyways). However, that's beside the point.

Anyway, I've been mucking around with RestTalk Arcanine, and if you want a counter to Venusaur, this is a great one (Oddly enough, it got taken down by QC when Venusaur is so rampant). I've been running a lulzy set with Rest/Sleep Talk/Flare Blitz/Morning Sun (Or Roar) at the moment, and apart from eating Venusaur for breakfast, it is just a complete pain to take down in general. I use 252 HP/20 SpD/236 Spe so I outspeed Venusaur.

Also, anyone else running SubSeed Jumpluff as a standalone staller at the moment?? Basically, I'm getting up SR and Spikes up with Omastar, then stalling the hell out of the opponent with Jumpluff. It's really fun. The moveset is Sub/Seed/Encore/Sleep Powder at the moment. Basically, anything that isn't a Grass type, you can come in to a resisted attack or even just after a U-Turn or something like that, Encore useless attack, Leech Seed on the switch. If the opponent is big and ugly like Venusaur (Meaning you can't Leech Seed it), put the bastard to sleep, otherwise Sub stall away.

How do offense teams deal with Alakazam without using Spiritomb and/or a buttload of priority?
Carry a relatively bulky Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO back (A lot of Pokemon can do this). You can also use something like Swellow, who outspeeds and OHKOs Alakazam all the time (You can even carry Pursuit so he will definitely die, too).
 
I'd say its usually priority or a scarfer. I'm finding that a lot of offensive teams seem to struggle with Zam's speed and power. Might even have to play some Sucker Punch mind games with Absol/Houndoom/whatever.
 

FlareBlitz

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It really depends on what your team needs. Semi-bulky dark types like skanktank and drapion are the best options if you don't like Spiritomb. There's always Swellow, and Sceptile/Dugtrio if you're willing to risk the ties, although the latter two have to watch out for Sub. The thing about alakazam is to just not give it a chance to set up a sub or calm mind, because then it becomes way harder to stop. Make sure your prediction and long-term thinking skills are up to snuff, so you can make the call on whether risking a sacrifice is worth it.
 

Meru

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Revenging Alakazam is easy but the problem is since I'm not revenging him with Pursuit, he'll systematically come back and pick off each member of my team 1 by 1 until spikes and or LO/SR finish him off.

I just can't find anything to fit my team that can take a hit from Alakazam and KO back.

He's definitely not broken. He's a joke on teams with Spiritomb. But with my current team, he's just a giant pain. But that's just my fault for composing a team that has no Psychic/Ghost/Dark resist. Mismagius and Rotom are also big problems :(
 

shrang

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As I said, you can Pursuit him with Swellow. You can do the same the Missy and Rotom too. Or, if you truly want to play offense, just load your team with speed boosters like RP Torterra, Rhyperior, DD Feraligatr, etc, and it doesn't matter if Alakazam is alive or not, lol.
 
This is really fucking stupid. I thought the shaymin/moltres comparison in the previous metagame was bad, was venusaur/moltres is way worse. I don't give a fuck what the comparison is meant to illustrate, they are two completely different pokemon with entirely different playstyles and characteristics and comparing them dooms any attempt at a serious point right from the beginning.

If you want to compare something to Venusaur, compare Roserade. Compare Vileplume. Compare Venomoth. Compare sceptile even. There are so many other pokemon that could be a relevant comparison that I am flabbergasted that a discussion comparing it to moltres has lasted this long. Jesus christ guys.
I'm unable to comprehend why people hate comparisons for the sake of finding an absolute line that is needed to be crossed for a Pokemon to become broken (Raikou, for example). I am also unable to understand why people are like "yea Venusaur is broken because its so bulky and its hard to switch into" and then everyone freaks out when someone (me) says "well other Pokemon do this equally as well (or better)". Get over the fact that Venusaur and Moltres are both the same thing: a Pokemon. When they are compared in terms of "which is good/bad and why?", that's definitely going to be a valid argument when discussing tiering status. If Moltres, for example, is equally as good as Venusaur at finding opportunities to switch in and is equally as hard to switch into, then logically one should not be put on a huge pedestal over the other.

When two Pokemon share characteristics, it only makes sense to compare them. At least, it doesn't make any sense to ignore the comparisons and not take them as valid arguments. To think otherwise is being completely ignorant of the similarities between two Pokemon.

You have two Hockey/ football/basketball/soccer etc Players. Is it stupid to compare their playstyles when analyzing which one of them is better? By your logic "no! they're completely different players, they could play different positions! they wear different shoes!". Hopefully now you'll see how it makes sense to compare two Pokemon that share some important characteristics (both sweepers that boast bulk power etc).

So please don't try to dismiss this argument by saying "I don't like comparisons, therefore this argument is invalid".

How do offense teams deal with Alakazam without using Spiritomb and/or a buttload of priority?

I'm not trying to say Alakazam is broken so please don't make a tangent off about that. I'm just looking for possibilities to add to my team to deal with him.
I almost always have the same problem, however the teams I find that do the best against Alakazam always carry Scarf Absol. With 373 Speed, it outpaces it by a single point and OHKOes it with Pursuit. Scarf Absol is quite useful for other things as well (ghost-trapping, sweeping, etc).
 
Revenging Alakazam is easy but the problem is since I'm not revenging him with Pursuit, he'll systematically come back and pick off each member of my team 1 by 1 until spikes and or LO/SR finish him off.

I just can't find anything to fit my team that can take a hit from Alakazam and KO back.

He's definitely not broken. He's a joke on teams with Spiritomb. But with my current team, he's just a giant pain. But that's just my fault for composing a team that has no Psychic/Ghost/Dark resist. Mismagius and Rotom are also big problems :(
Alakazam is only really coming in after a KO or a support move like Stealth Rock as with its stats it is unable to even come in on resisted attacks. If you are having troubles, Houndoom comes in on Psychic and puts it in the Pursuit / Sucker Punch problem, as does SKuntank. Chansey can come in and Milotic and Recover stall Life Orb versions provided they do not run Encore.
 

FlareBlitz

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I'm unable to comprehend why people hate comparisons...
No, stop right there. I don't hate comparisons. I hate YOUR comparisons, and that's primarily because your comparisons need more of a leap than even the performers at cirque de soleil can manage.

Moltres is nothing like Venusaur in the pokemon that can switch into it. Milotic is a 100% safe switch in into any offensive Moltres under common battle conditions (read: if LadderNoob356 doesn't let you get up full hazards), and RestTalk variations handle SubRoost Moltres too. And uh...Milotic is the most common Pokemon in the tier. More obscure Pokemon like Chansey, Slowking and Thick Fat Miltank also make perfectly serviceable 100% counters. And do note that all of these have instant recovery.

Now, let's look at Pokemon that can switch into Venusaur with any semblance of safety under common battle conditions. And this is just considering the special LO set, even though other sets destroy some of these counters. We have...Registeel, specially-defensive Weezing (and more obscure poison types like Drapion/Skunktank/Venomoth), and Chansey. That's really about it. Now, a couple of issues you'll notice here. One, the lack of fire and flying types; this is because SR is a common battle condition regardless of anyone whining about spinners. Things like specially-defensive Arcanine and Altaria have a hell of a time switching in when SR turns Sludge Bomb into a possible 2hko, and even offensive arcanine takes a bunch.
But most relevantly, you vastly underestimate the difference between sleep powder and [coverage move]. Sleep Powder isn't just "another attack", it's a way to give Venusaur 1-3 extra, completely free turns. And just not Venusaur, the whole team. I know we're all theorymoning here, but sleep is not anywhere near the same as an attack. It's not about being difficult to switch into, it's about being able to bypass "hard" counters just by immobilizing them for 3 turns. Hell a good sleep move turns Jynx from being barely worth the space it takes up to an extremely potent sweeper. It is definitely a very big deal.


You have two Hockey/ football/basketball/soccer etc Players. Is it stupid to compare their playstyles when analyzing which one of them is better?
It is if you compare them across sports, like you're doing.

"Hey guys michael jordan is really fast and extremely fit, these qualities are also important in baseball so he must be really good at it!!1"

In order for two "athletes" to be comparable, they must do roughly the same thing. Venusaur and Roserade are comparable because they come in on bulky waters and use sleep moves to disable their few, uncommon hard counters. Moltres is not comparable to either because it attempts to power through its counters using coverage moves and has no way of disabling them. Oh and also its hard counter is the most popular Pokemon in the tier.

If you can't see the difference in brokenness there I don't foresee the rest of this discussion being very productive.


I agree for the most part, but this Roserade shit is getting out of hand.

We haven't actually banned Roserade.
Uh, I know. It was nom'd but it went to OU before we could have a vote on it. But that doesn't really matter, since my point was that Roserade was already a controversial suspect (although it probably would have been banned anyway) and Venusaur is worse than Roserade in pretty much every way. There are obviously other metagame differences (like Yanmega not raping every grass type) but...yeah
 
No, stop right there. I don't hate comparisons. I hate YOUR comparisons, and that's primarily because your comparisons need more of a leap than even the performers at cirque de soleil can manage.
It is not my fault if you can't see the similarities between two bulky Life Orb sweepers using a recovery move. (Hint: start by reading the names, I just generalized them both in the same group while remaining accurate in description)

Flare Blitz said:
Moltres is nothing like Venusaur in the pokemon that can switch into it. Milotic is a 100% safe switch in into any offensive Moltres under common battle conditions (read: if LadderNoob356 doesn't let you get up full hazards), and RestTalk variations handle SubRoost Moltres too. And uh...Milotic is the most common Pokemon in the tier. More obscure Pokemon like Chansey, Slowking and Thick Fat Miltank also make perfectly serviceable 100% counters. And do note that all of these have instant recovery.

Now, let's look at Pokemon that can switch into Venusaur with any semblance of safety under common battle conditions. And this is just considering the special LO set, even though other sets destroy some of these counters. We have...Registeel, specially-defensive Weezing (and more obscure poison types like Drapion/Skunktank/Venomoth), and Chansey. That's really about it. Now, a couple of issues you'll notice here. One, the lack of fire and flying types; this is because SR is a common battle condition regardless of anyone whining about spinners. Things like specially-defensive Arcanine and Altaria have a hell of a time switching in when SR turns Sludge Bomb into a possible 2hko, and even offensive arcanine takes a bunch.
But most relevantly, you vastly underestimate the difference between sleep powder and [coverage move]. Sleep Powder isn't just "another attack", it's a way to give Venusaur 1-3 extra, completely free turns. And just not Venusaur, the whole team. I know we're all theorymoning here, but sleep is not anywhere near the same as an attack. It's not about being difficult to switch into, it's about being able to bypass "hard" counters just by immobilizing them for 3 turns. Hell a good sleep move turns Jynx from being barely worth the space it takes up to an extremely potent sweeper. It is definitely a very big deal.
All I have to say is: availability heuristic. Just because you can readily think of more examples of the two being different (or more specifically, Venusaur being better), does not mean they are not similar (or better than one another) in many ways.

Flare Blitz said:
It is if you compare them across sports, like you're doing.

"Hey guys michael jordan is really fast and extremely fit, these qualities are also important in baseball so he must be really good at it!!1"

In order for two "athletes" to be comparable, they must do roughly the same thing. Venusaur and Roserade are comparable because they come in on bulky waters and use sleep moves to disable their few, uncommon hard counters. Moltres is not comparable to either because it attempts to power through its counters using coverage moves and has no way of disabling them. Oh and also its hard counter is the most popular Pokemon in the tier.
Except your being inaccurate with how similar the two sweepers roles are. Are you honestly going to try and tell me that both LO Moltres and LO Venusaur don't fall into the "special sweepers" category?
Flare Blitz said:
If you can't see the difference in brokenness there I don't foresee the rest of this discussion being very productive.
Once again, I never said that Moltres was better (in fact many times I pointed out the exact opposite). I just said that when you compare them dialectically that Moltres fits the description people were giving for Venusaur and why it was broken.

My whole argument is based on this:

People said "Venusaur is too bulky and too hard to switch into".

I am refuting that by bringing up other examples of Pokemon who are at least equal at those two things (like Moltres would be).

I still fail to see where this "leap" and unreasonable logic accusations are coming from. I am frankly surprised that you don't understand what I'm getting at...
 
I hate to be the one who brings up ice cube theory, as it is inherently flawed, but banning venu would overpower Milo so badly. Personally I think Milo is a much better suspect than venu, as with the (justified) banning of raikou there are no good offensive electric types in the tier, and Milo has a high powered ice beam to kill the grass type switch ins. Although I admit I haven't been on shoddy in about a month due to school, when I stopped playing uu I often had to use chansey to pivot my venu into Milo as people where firing off blind ice beams to catch incoming venusaurs on the switch, similar to gengar blindly firing off focus blasts hoping to catch a ttar in ou. However, although I stand by everything I just said, I understand that none of what I said above is an acceptable reason for not banning venu.

Venu isn't overpowered. One of the reasons for banning mence in ou was that it had two compleltey differrent sets that required completely different pokemon to counter it, which is also said about venu. This simply isn't true of venu. A specially defensive weezing counters every possible variant of venu immaginable. Another group of people say that because of sleep powder there really is no true hard counter to venu, as it can sleep it on the switch. To those I respond that if we move venu up to BL then we must also move breloom to ubers, as the same can be said about it, and it also only has one true hard counter as well (physically defensive celebi). Venu is an amazing pokemon, but overpowered? Hardly.
 
Except your being inaccurate with how similar the two sweepers roles are. Are you honestly going to try and tell me that both LO Moltres and LO Venusaur don't fall into the "special sweepers" category?

...

My whole argument is based on this:

People said "Venusaur is too bulky and too hard to switch into".

I am refuting that by bringing up other examples of Pokemon who are at least equal at those two things (like Moltres would be).
I think you missed what the "people" actually said, because LO Moltres and LO Venusaur definitely don't both fall into the "special sweepers" category. They can, but they can also not. Venusaur can run viable physical and mixed sets; Moltres is almost certainly special based. This unpredictability has been mentioned by pretty much everyone advocating Venusaur for BL. An example given many times is that although Leafeon and Tangrowth wall physical sweeper Venusaur to hell and back, they both die horribly to Sludge Bomb, which many variants of Venusaur might carry (special sweeper, defensive versions, Leech Seeders, even bluff types with Swords Dance + Sludge Bomb ...).

On the other hand, FlareBlitz's statement that Milotic is a 100% safe switch in to any offensive Moltres isn't exactly right either. There are uncommon-but-still-viable Moltres sets who will put Milotic at a disadvantage, most important of which is the SunnyBeam set, but choiced sets with U-turn can also bring in a dangerous Pokemon like Sceptile for free. Not to say Milotic isn't a good counter to Moltres (in fact, it's a great counter to Moltres), but to be honest, blanket statements like this one should really be avoided like the plague.

PS: Heysup I don't think you should try the "but most Arcanine are not Jolly" statement. Maybe most Arcanines are not Jolly, but that does not mean that any individual Arcanine is indeed not Jolly, and so the idea that a Jolly LO Arcanine can Thunder Fang Moltres to death is a valid one. After all, if you claim that "but most Arcanine are not Jolly", I could do the same thing, search up Venusaur's stats for July and claim that that particular version is the Venusaur that you'll be facing. I would be "right" in inverted commas, but I would also be completely wrong.

Here're Venusaur's stats for July, by the way.

+------------+--------------+------------------+---------+
| Venusaur | Usage | 27068 | 22.7 |
| Venusaur | Ability | Overgrow | 100.0 |
| Venusaur | Item | Life Orb | 43.9 |
| Venusaur | Item | Leftovers | 35.6 |
| Venusaur | Item | Black Sludge | 10.4 |
| Venusaur | Item | Other (2) | < 8.8 |
| Venusaur | Nature | Timid | 30.1 |
| Venusaur | Nature | Calm | 20.9 |
| Venusaur | Nature | Jolly | 17.9 |
| Venusaur | Nature | Modest | 10.5 |
| Venusaur | Nature | Other (6) | < 10.2 |
| Venusaur | HP EV | None | 53.4 |
| Venusaur | HP EV | Max | 34.6 |
| Venusaur | HP EV | Other (5) | < 6.2 |
| Venusaur | Attack EV | None | 71.2 |
| Venusaur | Attack EV | Max | 15.7 |
| Venusaur | Attack EV | Other (5) | < 5.2 |
| Venusaur | Defense EV | None | 89.4 |
| Venusaur | Defense EV | Medium (100-150) | 5.5 |
| Venusaur | Defense EV | Other (3) | < 2.6 |
| Venusaur | SpAttack EV | None | 52.4 |
| Venusaur | SpAttack EV | Max | 36.9 |
| Venusaur | SpAttack EV | Other (3) | < 5.7 |
| Venusaur | SpDefense EV | None | 66.3 |
| Venusaur | SpDefense EV | Max | 17.2 |
| Venusaur | SpDefense EV | Other (5) | < 5.8 |
| Venusaur | Speed EV | Max | 56.2 |
| Venusaur | Speed EV | None | 29.7 |
| Venusaur | Speed EV | Other (4) | < 4.1 |
| Venusaur | Move | Sleep Powder | 90.8 |
| Venusaur | Move | Sludge Bomb | 74.7 |
| Venusaur | Move | Synthesis | 45.3 |
| Venusaur | Move | Leaf Storm | 42.7 |
| Venusaur | Move | Power Whip | 27.3 |
| Venusaur | Move | Leech Seed | 25.2 |
| Venusaur | Move | Energy Ball | 23.6 |
| Venusaur | Move | Earthquake | 18.6 |
| Venusaur | Move | Swords Dance | 18.3 |
| Venusaur | Move | Substitute | 7.2 |
| Venusaur | Move | Return | 5.9 |
| Venusaur | Move | Other (4) | < 5.0 |
+------------+--------------+------------------+---------+
 

Upstart

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Honestly Banedon I am not sure what you are trying to show HeySup by showing him Venusaur's stats because the stats show just what HeySup is saying most Venusaurs are the timid LO set. Where as his arguement is that for one jolly arcanines are rear and two thunderfang is even rarer. As HeySup Calculated it will do meh damage anyway. With that in mind some may disregard it as a threat allowing one to cover or worry about something else as it is impossible to cover everything. I would personally cover the much more prevelant set then the one in a million. However this has all grown out of hand. As I am not even sure what is being discussed now.

On another note I have also seen a decrease in the amount of Venusaurs. Is it just me or is there a reason for what appears to be a drop in the amount of Venusaur uauge.
 

SJCrew

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@ Heysup: You're still not taking into account the one thing that ALWAYS makes Venusaur harder to switch into than Moltres: Sleep Powder. Even if you're something like Registeel who laughs off all of hits attacks, you're almost always giving him a free turn. If the Pokemon is offensive and doesn't have Natural Cure, it's very likely to be useless for the rest of the match. Once Sleep Clause is active, it's pretty damn easy to pick it off, but until then, it's going to be a pain to switch in on.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
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Carry a relatively bulky Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO back (A lot of Pokemon can do this). You can also use something like Swellow, who outspeeds and OHKOs Alakazam all the time (You can even carry Pursuit so he will definitely die, too).
Agreed, Swellow always ends my Alakazam sweep.

But i always surprise those Registeels with Alakazam's HP Ground, they never expect it. [And of course, because it's not on the smogon strategy dex.]


On another note I have also seen a decrease in the amount of Venusaurs. Is it just me or is there a reason for what appears to be a drop in the amount of Venusaur uauge.
I didn't really notice because i didn't really care, i personally use Leafeon over Venusaur, but Venusaurs usually switches in when i send out Milotic.
 

Alchemator

my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i
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But i always surprise those Registeels with Alakazam's HP Ground, they never expect it. [And of course, because it's not on the smogon strategy dex.]
Focus Blast? I guess you hit Drapion aswell though.

E: Huh
Arikado said:
but Venusaurs usually switch when i send out Milotic.
You mean -2 right...
 
@ Heysup: You're still not taking into account the one thing that ALWAYS makes Venusaur harder to switch into than Moltres: Sleep Powder. Even if you're something like Registeel who laughs off all of hits attacks, you're almost always giving him a free turn. If the Pokemon is offensive and doesn't have Natural Cure, it's very likely to be useless for the rest of the match. Once Sleep Clause is active, it's pretty damn easy to pick it off, but until then, it's going to be a pain to switch in on.
That seems to me to be if anything a bit more of an argument that Sleep itself is still broken even with Sleep Clause (as it lets any halfway decent Pokemon with a Sleep move have a chance of bypassing its normal counters and give the player a free turn or two, possibly more depending on how the match goes and how long the target actually stays asleep), as that's not just applicable to Venusaur. Replace "Venusaur" in your post with other decent sleepers like Exeggutor, Jynx, Tangrowth, etc, and your point would be just as true--all of these Pokemon can potentially incapacitate a Pokemon for the rest of the fight simply through Sleep (and in doing so, likely bring you a free switch/turn of set-up when the opponent either switches or tries to wait it out and hope for the best), while still being good Pokemon in their own right.

Yet for those other Pokemon, I'd expect responses like Sleep Powder/Lovely Kiss has shaky accuracy, they typically aren't that great, just use a sleep absorber to take the Sleep, etc. But I don't really understand how Venusaur is that much different--what's the difference between carrying a RestTalk Registeel to safely deal with the occasional Jynx or Tangrowth or whatever and carrying it to deal with Venusaur? Is it simply because Venusuar's one of the top used Pokemon and the others aren't? Cause if that's so, that seems like a rather silly complaint to me (unless, again, you're trying to argue that semi-accurate Sleep moves on a whole are broken due to forcing you to have stuff like Chesto Berry and RestTalk Pokemon to effectively deal with them, which hinders those Pokemon's actual effectiveness), because that's just refusing to deal with what people are using, which, while fine, is something you do at your own choice at isn't a reason to ban a Pokemon--people deal with Sleepers like Breloom just fine in OU, after all.

But anyway, the main point here is that beyond Sleep, Venusaur's hardly an impossible Pokemon to handle. It can run a variety of sets, but can only run one at once, and each of these sets has its counters--banning it simply for the diversity of its sets despite that would be no different from banning something like Lucario or Gengar in OU because of their set diversity, which combined lets them beat most Pokemon, despite the fact that they can only run one set at a time and each of those can be handled.

The real thing that seems to be pushing Venusaur over the edge here then is Sleep Powder, which it can use to get around some of its key counters, and potentially forces you to carrying two Venusaur checks or whatever. But again, the same could be said about Jynx using Lovely Kiss (on the fast, sweepy end of things) or Tangrowth using Sleep Powder (or the slow, bulky end of them), so I'm not really getting what makes Venusaur an exception here.

Now, of course, I'm not exactly arguing for Sleep Clause to be changed in some form in UU, partly because I'm not exactly convinced that it's necessary and largely because I know that's something that probably will never happen, just like Stealth Rock being banned and such. However, since these discussions on Venusaur either end up focusing heavily on Sleep Powder from the get-go or otherwise end up focusing on it being the key difference between Venusaur and other similar bulky LO sweepers like Moltres all the same, it seems something interesting to consider at least (especially since UU has already considered banning stuff like Damp Rock to keep Rain-teams in check instead of going for the sweepers, and this is the same principle--manage to keep Pokemon like Venusaur UU while getting a very troublesome monkey off our backs) because at least from what I'm gathering as an observer here, people seem to be having more trouble dealing with Sleep and its effects than Venusaur itself.
 
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