np: SV UU Stage 0 - Start of Something New (Hello SV UU!)

[BigFatMantis]

We can't discuss how the tera results affect UU in the OU suspect thread, and we can't discuss them here, so where can we discuss them?.. and no I don't believe DMs are a good place for publicly discussing something especially when councils have lately been more transparent and community open on how tiers should be built for the playerbase, hence why there's even a tera debate at all rather than a council vote. There's just no where for a community discussion or impact at all on the subject.

Just want to point out that you CAN actually discuss how tera results affect uu in the OU NP thread for the suspect - you can discuss any effects of the suspect test actually, and pointing out how UU is much more manageable with tera than OU actually helps in that discussion since it illuminates that the issue is probably more to do with OU itself than the tera mechanic. So feel free to post there and also go for reqs. It's just rather pointless to discuss it here since we absolutely can't do anything about it whatsoever in the UU subforum.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Just want to point out that you CAN actually discuss how tera results affect uu in the OU NP thread for the suspect - you can discuss any effects of the suspect test actually, and pointing out how UU is much more manageable with tera than OU actually helps in that discussion since it illuminates that the issue is probably more to do with OU itself than the tera mechanic. So feel free to post there and also go for reqs. It's just rather pointless to discuss it here since we absolutely can't do anything about it whatsoever in the UU subforum.

Just want to jump in here that in the Tera suspect thread Finch, the OU leader, is shutting down discussions of how their ban will affect UU. I'm a little disappointed about it, but not much I can do about that. I'm not good enough to get reqs, so I can't really do anything in the vote either. Oh well. I'll probably stick to UU whatever happens cause OU is just a MESS.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Just want to jump in here that in the Tera suspect thread Finch, the OU leader, is shutting down discussions of how their ban will affect UU. I'm a little disappointed about it, but not much I can do about that. I'm not good enough to get reqs, so I can't really do anything in the vote either. Oh well. I'll probably stick to UU whatever happens cause OU is just a MESS.

Simply talking about UU is probably not going to fly there yeah - but making the comparison of how it is in UU as compared to OU does help the discussion as it illuminates the fact that the problem may not be tera itself, but rather it is merely one of many factors contributing to the instability of the tier.

At any rate, we have less than a week left to enjoy the current UU meta, so best to just hang back and have some fun with your Espathras and Hatterenes for one final stretch. Looking forward to a new meta next week.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Hey, made a scuffed speed tiers that's based off the top 50 used pokemon from the tournament that's going on. This is just temporary until a proper one is made by the moderators. You can message me to edit if something is really off. I copied the format from LC speed tiers.

Ps: Please message me if you know how to delete rows without deleting the entire table.

Speed	Sprite	Pokemon	Base	Nature	IVS	EVS	±
1236		Espathra	105	Neutral	31	252	+6
742		Barraskewda	136	Neutral	31	252	+2
741		Drednaw	74	Neutral	31	252	+4
736		Hawlucha	118	Positive	31	252	+2
722		Floatzel	115	Positive	31	252	+2
670		Hawlucha	118	Neutral	31	252	+2
658		Floatzel	115	Neutral	31	252	+2
590		Golduck	85	Positive	31	252	+2
546		Armarouge	75	Positive	31	252	+2
538		Golduck	85	Neutral	31	252	+2
538		Cetitan	73	Positive	31	252	+2
524		Cloyster	70	Positive	31	252	+2
519		Iron Jugulis	108	Positive	31	252	+1
498		Armarouge	75	Neutral	31	252	+2
496		Sandy Shocks	101	Positive	31	252	+1
492		Salamence	100	Positive	31	252	+1
492		Staraptor	100	Positive	31	252	+1
490		Cetitan	73	Neutral	31	252	+2
486		Hydreigon	98	Positive	31	252	+1
483		Haxorus	97	Positive	31	252	+1
478		Cloyster	70	Neutral	31	252	+2
478		Polteageist	70	Neutral	31	252	+2
463		Espathra	105	Neutral	31	252	+1
459		Brambleghast	90	Positive	31	252	+1
447		Rotom-W	86	Positive	31	252	+1
430		Gyarados	81	Positive	31	252	+1
426		Gallade	80	Positive	31	252	+1
400		Iron Thorns	72	Positive	31	252	+1
400		Tsareena	72	Positive	31	252	+1
391		Gyarados	81	Neutral	31	252	+1
386		Talonflame	126	Positive	31	252
383		Kilowattrel	125	Positive	31	252
383		Weavile	125	Positive	31	252
379		Noivern	123	Positive	31	252
369		Espathra	105	Neutral	31	0	+1
368		Hawlucha	118	Positive	31	252
364		Iron Thorns	72	Neutral	31	252	+1
360		Magnezone	60	Positive	31	252	+1
354		Toedscruel	100	Neutral	31	0	+1
353		Scream Tail	111	Positive	31	252
350		Lycanroc-Dusk	110	Positive	31	252
350		Espeon	110	Positive	31	252
350		Gengar	110	Positive	31	252
350		Grafaiai	110	Positive	31	252
350		Froslass	110	Positive	31	252
349		Weavile	125	Neutral	31	252
346		Iron Jugulis	108	Positive	31	252
345		Noivern	123	Neutral	31	252
339		Pawmot	105	Positive	31	252
335		Hawlucha	118	Neutral	31	252
331		Sandy Shocks	101	Positive	31	252
328		Salamence	100	Positive	31	252
328		Staraptor	100	Positive	31	252
328		Tauros-Paldea	100	Positive	31	252
324		Brambleghast	90	Neutral	31	0	+1
324		Hydreigon	98	Positive	31	252
322		Haxorus	97	Positive	31	252
320		Mimikyu	96	Positive	31	252
315		Tinkaton	94	Positive	31	252
309		Pawmot	105	Neutral	31	252
306		Brambleghast	90	Positive	31	252
306		Lucario	90	Positive	31	252
298		Rotom-W	86	Positive	31	252
293		Haxorus	97	Neutral	31	252
291		Mimikyu	96	Neutral	31	252
288		Talonflame	126	Neutral	31	0
287		Gyarados	81	Positive	31	252
287		Sliver Wing	81	Positive	31	252
284		Gallade	80	Positive	31	252
279		Lucario	90	Neutral	31	252
273		Armarouge	75	Positive	31	252
267		Tsareena	72	Positive	31	252
267		Iron Thorns	72	Positive	31	252
262		Wo-Chien	70	Positive	31	252
261		Gyarados	81	Neutral	31	252
261		Sliver Wing	81	Neutral	31	252
258		Scream Tail	111	Neutral	31	0
256		Grafaiai	110	Neutral	31	0
251		Pelipper	65	Positive	31	252
249		Armarouge	75	Neutral	31	252
243		Iron Thorns	72	Neutral	31	252
240		Magnezone	60	Positive	31	252
239		Cloyster	70	Neutral	31	252
239		Polteageist	70	Neutral	31	252
236		Toedscruel	100	Neutral	31	0
224		Tinkaton	94	Neutral	31	0
216		Brambleghast	90	Neutral	31	0
208		Rotom-W	86	Neutral	31	0
204		Donphan	50	Neutral	31	0	+1
199		Azumarill	50	Neutral	31	252
196		Altaria	80	Neutral	31	0
176		Wo-Chien	70	Neutral	31	0
176		Bisharp	70	Neutral	31	0
174		Forretress	40	Neutral	31	0	+1
166		Pelipper	65	Neutral	31	0
156		Magnezone	60	Neutral	31	0
146		Brute Bonnet	55	Neutral	31	0
146		Blissey	55	Neutral	31	0
136		Donphan	50	Neutral	31	0
130		Hippowdon	47	Neutral	31	0
116		Forretress	40	Neutral	31	0
114		Gastrodon	39	Neutral	31	0
106		Quagsire	35	Neutral	31	0
96		Slowking	30	Neutral	31	0
96		Slowbro	30	Neutral	31	0
94		Hatterene	29	Neutral	31	0
76		Forretress	40	Negative	0	0

 

[Negative Charge]

Does UU really have to abide by OU’s Tera suspect? Haven’t lower tiers implemented differing policy on weather, for example, in prior generations? Like UU banning drought or heat rock and RU not?

 

[BigFatMantis]

Does UU really have to abide by OU’s Tera suspect? Haven’t lower tiers implemented differing policy on weather, for example, in prior generations? Like UU banning drought or heat rock and RU not? Besides Espathra there’s nothing that’s glaringly broken with it besides Hydreigon.

Yes, and we've moved on from this topic since there's nothing to do about it within this subforum. You are free to partake in the reqs process for OU though if you want to vote on tera generally speaking, and you can also voice your opinion on tera generally there.

If tera is banned and thus banned in UU as a result, someone can always make a Policy Review thread later on in that forum, but that would be the appropriate place to further these discussions and not within this topic. This NP topic is just to discuss the current state of the UU metagame, which only has 4 days left before it completely changes.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I guess I'll quickly make this post while we are in this phase of UU so I don't forget later.

I have REALLY enjoyed my time in UU this month. The meta has felt mostly balanced (stupid psychic chicken) and it feels like a lot of different playstyles are really viable here. Primarily using rain, as long as I play right, nothing except for the psychic chicken has really felt broken (although we've identified some possible suspect candidates previously). I have no idea what the UU council might look at qbing, but I guess we'd also have to see what comes down from OU.

Enjoy your last few days in UU, you dumb chicken. Your days are numbered.

 

[SpritePony]

Thought I'd toss my two cents into here.
Been toying around with some really fun gimmicks. My current flavor is Loaded Dice MoxieCross. It's a mini MegaCross that seems to have been putting in a lot of work for me lately, even though Arm Thrust is actually complete garbage. (Seriously, why is it so bad? lmao)

Heracross @ Loaded Dice
Tera Rock
Jolly Nature / Moxie
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 Def/SpDef (I have mine on SpDef)
Pin Missile
Arm Thrust (should be Close Combat or EQ at this point, honestly.)
Rock Blast
Trailblaze

The idea was to take an old fan favorite in Heracross, and make use of its multi-hit moves to get around things like Sash and Sturdy. After a Trailblaze, you outspeed quite a number of non-scarf mons, and Moxie allows you to snowball super hard. I've had 6-0 games with this Hera before (but who hasn't had a rogue 6-0?) but I find it quite fun to watch it just sort of lay into things.

Tera Fire Magneton and Scizor have also been serving me well both in UU and OU. They each have their own applications, but Fire Mag has been seeing more play from me than Scizor does. I have two different Magneton builds.

Magneton @ Eviolite
Tera Fire
Timid Nature / Magnet Pull
252 SpAtk/252 Speed/6 Def
Discharge/Thunderbolt
Flash Cannon
Tera Blast
Volt Switch

Magneton @ Eviolite
Tera Fire
Bold Nature / Magnet Pull
244 HP/252 Def /12 SpAtk
Discharge/Thunderbolt
Flash Cannon
Tera Blast
Volt Switch

Both of these aim to do the same thing, but in different ways. You can either VoltTurn into them on an opposing Steel, Shed Tail into them, or hard switch them in to trap them and take them out. The opponent, if they are not on Shed Shell, are either forced to lose a mon, or Tera into a non-Steel typing and waste their Tera. The first set is more of a speedier sweeper set, trying to use it's decent Eviolite bulk to survive a couple of hits while dishing out damage/fishing for Paralysis from Discharge. The second set aims to use most of your Eviolite bulk to just pick away at opposing Steels.
Tera Fire is the Tera of choice to nuke specific opposing Steels. Opposing Mags, Orthworm and Scizor are the first two that come to mind for this, akin to Gen 5/Gen 6's Eviolite Magneton would use HP Fire when catching Scizor and opposing Mags.
Why Magneton over Magnezone? You trade 10 base SpAtk for 10 more Speed, and Eviolite makes you mildly tankier than Magnezone. (70/115/90 on Magnezone, 50/142.5*/105* on Eviolite Magneton) You have less HP, but more raw bulk until you get hit with Knock Off. You also don't have Leftovers recovery, but most times you don't need it.
Scarf is another option for the offensive Magneton breed, but at that point just play Magnezone.

Scizor @ Leftovers
Tera Fire
Adamant Nature / Technician
240 HP/252 Atk/16 SpDef
Bullet Punch
Pounce
Tera Blast
Defog

This set... I just like Bulky Offensive Scizor in this format. You can usually take a few hits and hit back pretty hard. Most people will expect Tera Steel to amp up Bullet Punch, so they end up bringing in something like other Steels to try and force you out. With Tera Fire, you can turn the tables on them instead and either deal heavy damage to them, or outright KO them. Defog is here because this is a bulkier set, and Defog is always a welcomed sight for any team. It can freely be swapped on a fully Offensive Scizor set. You can swap it for Swords Dance or U-Turn if you wish. If one is running non-Choiced Offensive Scizor with this, I'd highly recommend Boots on it.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Danny is doing quite excellently in the kick off tour and is currently in it, at round 5 as I type this he is now in round 6. I thought their round 4 game was fairly interesting and I know their team (and they asked me to look at this game) so I might as well post it here as I know some people are interested in this type of content.

Not going to be as detailed as my last one (sorry, I still need to go through the other game) and I'll mainly be looking at it from Danny's perspective. Disclaimer I'm not trying to imply I'm better than any of these players, it's just useful to analyze games to improve. Especially your own games. ESPECIALLY your losses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1755311542-zy3o9ae52oa33drv1w0fqd42j1ubzhzpw

MU and lead

So I think the MU is fairly balanced, Moute probably has to tip toe a lot to avoid getting swept by Oricorio (especially since Oricoria gets two chances with Revival) + Bramble tends to be good into Tsareena as hazard control. BUT - Gastrodon does wall most of Dany's team, especially as Tinkaton is not Encore for Danny and the Oricorio is tera ground + Bramble has no Grass stab + Azu has no Trailblaze. To be honest, the weakness to Gastrodon and Quagsire makes me think the team can be improved by adding a Grass move somewhere but I digress. Gengar also seems to be a big threat given no Ghost resist. All in all I think it's fairly balanced, if Gengar is like Specs + Gastrodon has Ice Beam I might pick Moute for MU, but not by a significant margin.

Anyways a lead of Azumarill seems reasonable - it's not really getting many opportunities. Actually, I think this is pretty interesting, a lot of people do that a strategy, lead with the mon they think has a fairly bad MU and can't switch in much. It has a few benefits, namely you of course get to come in at least once as a lead for free and you can be like "oh well if I lose it or have a bad lead, it doesn't matter as much since this mon wasn't that important anyways." Obviously this logic isn't always sound and you have to play the specific position, but it's a concrete point that not all players know about.


T1 - liquidation from Azu seems reasonable, keeping Tink low helps a few things, most notably Oricorio can have an easier time sweeping not having to deal with Encore Tinkaton.

T2 - another liquidation which again is reasonable for the same reason, another idea is Play Rough though as the Azumarill still has Aqua Jet later anyways if it predicts wrong here and Play Roughs the Tinkaton. Obviously that would require another prediction though so Liquidation isn't wrong per se.

T3 - This Liquidation I don't really get. This is kind of an example of making a turn based on your opponent's play. What could Moute do here? Powerwhip to kill Azu or U-Turn to Gastro to try and get momentum on a potential U-Turn smacking a switch in. Those are really the only reasonable plays, and Liquidation doesn't really make sense in either case. You could say if there's such thing as a midground play, this would be a low ground play! The only thing I can think of is Danny trying to save his sets (sorry bro Moute has laddered vs me with this team like many many times). That's really not worth the risk of letting Gastro get a free boost which is what happens.

T4 - Quag switch in seems fine, Bramble is tempting as well. But Quagsire does get 2HKO:


+1 0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

So idk, maybe just bite the bullet and stay in with Azumarill then switch out on a predicted rest is more accurate. I understand Danny might have been trying to swap out on a hazard set up turn, but eh, Gastrodon is already a huge threat by itself so Moute clicking an attack is perfectly reasonable.

T5 - Recover seems off. I assume Danny didn't know Earthpower was very likely to 2HKO. Or was predicting hazards again? Well the thing is, hazards was more likely on turn 4 than turn 5 (on turn 5, there was a clearer benefit to attacking quagsire to kill it or keep it low) and Moute showed already on turn 4 he already clicked the attacking move, so another attack on turn 5 was super likely. So the question is, assuming Quagsire is at like 1% and can use a move after Gastro attacks (i.e., assuming it lives Earth Power), what should we click? Well Recover doesn't make much sense, you're just putting yourself in a likely get KOd next turn and making no progress. Toxic or SR are the more reasonable options, Toxic probably best considering how bad Gastrodon went in.

T6 - Bramble probably better since it died to Ice Beam in one anyways later, might as well get the same position but with a living Quagsire. But I understand if you weren't going to calc on turn 4 and 5, you probably wouldn't calc now.

T7 - Spin or Spikes? No grass stab here so don't blame Danny for not clicking that. Of course we don't know Gastro has Ice Beam but we're aware it's a possibility and regardless, even if you think you're going to live this turn, Bramble still has to prioritize which to do first. Not sure if there is a clearly correct answer but I'd probably click Spin too to make Azu's life a lot easier. If you anticipate Ice Beam killing you, (well you probably should go Oricorio in this case but I digress), then Spikes makes little sense since no Bramble = Tsraeena can spin.

T8 - PR makes sense, at least make Gastro burn it's healing PP. But maybe Oricorio was an option instead of Azu, I think wanting to avoid setting up on a +1 Gastro is smart though so I think Azu is good.

T9 - Maybe I would have tried to set up Oricorio instead of going Tink - Oricorio is going to have to try and sweep and it won't get it immediately because Grafaiai exists, but landing a Revelation Dance on Grafaiai or Air Slash on Tsareena would have been important progress. Obviously that requires you to predict well but when you're down 6-4 without any obvious compensation then yeah you do have to try and make plays

T10 and 11 - Nevertheless, Danny makes progress like this (and I'm sure Grafaiai didn't have to eat the Hammer Spammer), more due to good fortune from the opponent's play than his own brilliant play, but this is progress nevertheless. I do get the psychology though - Moute is probably thinking Gastro did a shit ton of work so he wants to keep it in tip top shape and not lose Leftovers, still, it should have been worth it - losing 76% on Grafaiai means Oricorio sweep is looming. And getting Tink knocked for nothing also helps.

T12 - I have no idea what Danny clicked because encore switched his move! Wow! But yeah, staying in is fine for obvious reasons (tink is a grafaiai counter, why would you switch out on a mon that has a pivot move anyways). At this point, I think Danny is now winning although it's close bc Moute still has a revive.

T13 to 19 - I mean he did what he should have done (probably) - attack constantly and pressure Gastro. Honestly I probably would have just set up with Oricorio on turn 13 but avoiding Ice Beam hax is fine, with Grafaiai dead, Oricorio really should be a potent sweeper so his approach is probably correct. Was the crit important? Well yes it made it easier for Danny but as I said, I think he's already winning on turn 12.

T20 - yeah I think it's smart not to jet, you want to play rough to make sure Pawmot can't live + revival blessing.

T21 - Great teras, I didn't know Pawmot could do this to get Double Shock again tbh. So I wouldn't have tera'd Oricorio but apparently Danny did anticipate and know about this mechanic.

T22 - ehhh not a huge fan of another QD but it's not a bad play. The thing is, Revival Blessing Grafaiai is a bit annoying although it will have to likely Encore a Revelation Dance and kill itself like that to let Tsareena come in. The reason I'm not a fan is because I'd love to just kill Pawmot to not deal with this revive nonsense. Yes Tsareena has a (good) chance to live +1 Air Slash most likely (idk Moute's evs), but even if it revenges Oricorio, Danny can still revive it later + a dead Pawmot means Tinkaton has seriously sweeping chances for Danny as it's max speed speed SD.

T23 - i think just kill the pawmot? I mean Seed Bomb is healing more than Roost but Moute does something else anyways so maybe it worked out but Grafaiai is annoying.

T24 - obvious and good

T25 - obvious and good and forced

T26 - honestly, I think you sack Oricorio here to pwhip and do some damage with rdance, go to Tink and SD, then try and sweep. Not sure about hard switching to Tink but I suppose Oricorio is close to a sweep to. But Tink was very close to sweeping so yeah idk. There might be some psychology going on (not sure, maybe Danny just thought Oricorio is legit better at sweeping) - often times, when you have a mon that just did a lot of work, you want to preserver it. Oricorio just got 2 KOs so obviously you want to keep it, but in times like this you have to take a step back and breathe and objectively evaluate. Yes Oriocorio did work, but is it rlly better than tink? IMO no but this is not a clear yes/no question.

T27 - Twave seems too respectful to Moute - Gigaton put Tsareena in Air Slash range so I would have done that. Was he really going to Synthesis? Eh it seemed unlikely but I guess it's possible and what Danny anticipated

T28 - hammer is just as good as it was t27 when I said it was good

T29 - sd is fine so if Tsareena syntehsis now, it gets hammer spammered next turn

T30 - sack tink seems right

T31 - double shock seems right although maybe tsareena was better for Moute

T32 - maybe would have used QD here to make sure Tsareena dies to Air Slash, Gengar can't be Scarf or else it wouldn't have killed Pawmot.

T33 - obvious and good

Anyways an entertaining game - anyone (including players) feel free to tell me if something I said makes no sense and I'm an idiot which is entirely possible, even likely.

 

[Moutemoute]

Danny is doing quite excellently in the kick off tour and is currently in it, at round 5 as I type this he is now in round 6. I thought their round 4 game was fairly interesting and I know their team (and they asked me to look at this game) so I might as well post it here as I know some people are interested in this type of content.

Not going to be as detailed as my last one (sorry, I still need to go through the other game) and I'll mainly be looking at it from Danny's perspective. Disclaimer I'm not trying to imply I'm better than any of these players, it's just useful to analyze games to improve. Especially your own games. ESPECIALLY your losses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1755311542-zy3o9ae52oa33drv1w0fqd42j1ubzhzpw

MU and lead

View attachment 478693

So I think the MU is fairly balanced, Moute probably has to tip toe a lot to avoid getting swept by Oricorio (especially since Oricoria gets two chances with Revival) + Bramble tends to be good into Tsareena as hazard control. BUT - Gastrodon does wall most of Dany's team, especially as Tinkaton is not Encore for Danny and the Oricorio is tera ground + Bramble has no Grass stab + Azu has no Trailblaze. To be honest, the weakness to Gastrodon and Quagsire makes me think the team can be improved by adding a Grass move somewhere but I digress. Gengar also seems to be a big threat given no Ghost resist. All in all I think it's fairly balanced, if Gengar is like Specs + Gastrodon has Ice Beam I might pick Moute for MU, but not by a significant margin.

Anyways a lead of Azumarill seems reasonable - it's not really getting many opportunities. Actually, I think this is pretty interesting, a lot of people do that a strategy, lead with the mon they think has a fairly bad MU and can't switch in much. It has a few benefits, namely you of course get to come in at least once as a lead for free and you can be like "oh well if I lose it or have a bad lead, it doesn't matter as much since this mon wasn't that important anyways." Obviously this logic isn't always sound and you have to play the specific position, but it's a concrete point that not all players know about.


T1 - liquidation from Azu seems reasonable, keeping Tink low helps a few things, most notably Oricorio can have an easier time sweeping not having to deal with Encore Tinkaton.

T2 - another liquidation which again is reasonable for the same reason, another idea is Play Rough though as the Azumarill still has Aqua Jet later anyways if it predicts wrong here and Play Roughs the Tinkaton. Obviously that would require another prediction though so Liquidation isn't wrong per se.

T3 - This Liquidation I don't really get. This is kind of an example of making a turn based on your opponent's play. What could Moute do here? Powerwhip to kill Azu or U-Turn to Gastro to try and get momentum on a potential U-Turn smacking a switch in. Those are really the only reasonable plays, and Liquidation doesn't really make sense in either case. You could say if there's such thing as a midground play, this would be a low ground play! The only thing I can think of is Danny trying to save his sets (sorry bro Moute has laddered vs me with this team like many many times). That's really not worth the risk of letting Gastro get a free boost which is what happens.

T4 - Quag switch in seems fine, Bramble is tempting as well. But Quagsire does get 2HKO:


+1 0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

So idk, maybe just bite the bullet and stay in with Azumarill then switch out on a predicted rest is more accurate. I understand Danny might have been trying to swap out on a hazard set up turn, but eh, Gastrodon is already a huge threat by itself so Moute clicking an attack is perfectly reasonable.

T5 - Recover seems off. I assume Danny didn't know Earthpower was very likely to 2HKO. Or was predicting hazards again? Well the thing is, hazards was more likely on turn 4 than turn 5 (on turn 5, there was a clearer benefit to attacking quagsire to kill it or keep it low) and Moute showed already on turn 4 he already clicked the attacking move, so another attack on turn 5 was super likely. So the question is, assuming Quagsire is at like 1% and can use a move after Gastro attacks (i.e., assuming it lives Earth Power), what should we click? Well Recover doesn't make much sense, you're just putting yourself in a likely get KOd next turn and making no progress. Toxic or SR are the more reasonable options, Toxic probably best considering how bad Gastrodon went in.

T6 - Bramble probably better since it died to Ice Beam in one anyways later, might as well get the same position but with a living Quagsire. But I understand if you weren't going to calc on turn 4 and 5, you probably wouldn't calc now.

T7 - Spin or Spikes? No grass stab here so don't blame Danny for not clicking that. Of course we don't know Gastro has Ice Beam but we're aware it's a possibility and regardless, even if you think you're going to live this turn, Bramble still has to prioritize which to do first. Not sure if there is a clearly correct answer but I'd probably click Spin too to make Azu's life a lot easier. If you anticipate Ice Beam killing you, (well you probably should go Oricorio in this case but I digress), then Spikes makes little sense since no Bramble = Tsraeena can spin.

T8 - PR makes sense, at least make Gastro burn it's healing PP. But maybe Oricorio was an option instead of Azu, I think wanting to avoid setting up on a +1 Gastro is smart though so I think Azu is good.

T9 - Maybe I would have tried to set up Oricorio instead of going Tink - Oricorio is going to have to try and sweep and it won't get it immediately because Grafaiai exists, but landing a Revelation Dance on Grafaiai or Air Slash on Tsareena would have been important progress. Obviously that requires you to predict well but when you're down 6-4 without any obvious compensation then yeah you do have to try and make plays

T10 and 11 - Nevertheless, Danny makes progress like this (and I'm sure Grafaiai didn't have to eat the Hammer Spammer), more due to good fortune from the opponent's play than his own brilliant play, but this is progress nevertheless. I do get the psychology though - Moute is probably thinking Gastro did a shit ton of work so he wants to keep it in tip top shape and not lose Leftovers, still, it should have been worth it - losing 76% on Grafaiai means Oricorio sweep is looming. And getting Tink knocked for nothing also helps.

T12 - I have no idea what Danny clicked because encore switched his move! Wow! But yeah, staying in is fine for obvious reasons (tink is a grafaiai counter, why would you switch out on a mon that has a pivot move anyways). At this point, I think Danny is now winning although it's close bc Moute still has a revive.

T13 to 19 - I mean he did what he should have done (probably) - attack constantly and pressure Gastro. Honestly I probably would have just set up with Oricorio on turn 13 but avoiding Ice Beam hax is fine, with Grafaiai dead, Oricorio really should be a potent sweeper so his approach is probably correct. Was the crit important? Well yes it made it easier for Danny but as I said, I think he's already winning on turn 12.

T20 - yeah I think it's smart not to jet, you want to play rough to make sure Pawmot can't live + revival blessing.

T21 - Great teras, I didn't know Pawmot could do this to get Double Shock again tbh. So I wouldn't have tera'd Oricorio but apparently Danny did anticipate and know about this mechanic.

T22 - ehhh not a huge fan of another QD but it's not a bad play. The thing is, Revival Blessing Grafaiai is a bit annoying although it will have to likely Encore a Revelation Dance and kill itself like that to let Tsareena come in. The reason I'm not a fan is because I'd love to just kill Pawmot to not deal with this revive nonsense. Yes Tsareena has a (good) chance to live +1 Air Slash most likely (idk Moute's evs), but even if it revenges Oricorio, Danny can still revive it later + a dead Pawmot means Tinkaton has seriously sweeping chances for Danny as it's max speed speed SD.

T23 - i think just kill the pawmot? I mean Seed Bomb is healing more than Roost but Moute does something else anyways so maybe it worked out but Grafaiai is annoying.

T24 - obvious and good

T25 - obvious and good and forced

T26 - honestly, I think you sack Oricorio here to pwhip and do some damage with rdance, go to Tink and SD, then try and sweep. Not sure about hard switching to Tink but I suppose Oricorio is close to a sweep to. But Tink was very close to sweeping so yeah idk. There might be some psychology going on (not sure, maybe Danny just thought Oricorio is legit better at sweeping) - often times, when you have a mon that just did a lot of work, you want to preserver it. Oricorio just got 2 KOs so obviously you want to keep it, but in times like this you have to take a step back and breathe and objectively evaluate. Yes Oriocorio did work, but is it rlly better than tink? IMO no but this is not a clear yes/no question.

T27 - Twave seems too respectful to Moute - Gigaton put Tsareena in Air Slash range so I would have done that. Was he really going to Synthesis? Eh it seemed unlikely but I guess it's possible and what Danny anticipated

T28 - hammer is just as good as it was t27 when I said it was good

T29 - sd is fine so if Tsareena syntehsis now, it gets hammer spammered next turn

T30 - sack tink seems right

T31 - double shock seems right although maybe tsareena was better for Moute

T32 - maybe would have used QD here to make sure Tsareena dies to Air Slash, Gengar can't be Scarf or else it wouldn't have killed Pawmot.

T33 - obvious and good

Anyways an entertaining game - anyone (including players) feel free to tell me if something I said makes no sense and I'm an idiot which is entirely possible, even likely.

Hey, will give my reasons for X or Y play I made.

T3 : Power Whip was so nasty that I could not ever imagine Danny staying vs Tsareena, especially with my agressive Stealth Rock on the first turn vs Azumarill. I used U-turn in order to predict Brambleghast / Tinkaton (mostly Tinkaton since Stealth Rocks weren't up yet on my side of the field).

T12 : I used Encore mainly because I wasn't aware Gigaton Hammer can be forced again. In my mind, it was going to struggle during this turn (or at least not being able to do anything). That was definitively a shitty play of my part.

T19 : Crit was awful, nothing else to say.

T21 : There wasn't a single world I would ever imagine Tera Ground, that's one of the reason I actually hate this mechanic, never know what to expect it can really flip over a game. Once Tera Ground was revealed and Gastrodon done, in the long run I was quite fucked. If I had known this was Tera Ground, I would have kept my Tera for Specs Gengar in order to nuke everything with Tera Ghost Specs Shadow Ball.

Overall I don't think I did too much mistakes, maybe I shouldn't risk the crit on Gastrodon but otherwise eh, unfortunate game and the G2 is even more unfortunate as I'm loosing because of two flinches.

 

[Danny]

Danny is doing quite excellently in the kick off tour and is currently in it, at round 5 as I type this he is now in round 6. I thought their round 4 game was fairly interesting and I know their team (and they asked me to look at this game) so I might as well post it here as I know some people are interested in this type of content.

Not going to be as detailed as my last one (sorry, I still need to go through the other game) and I'll mainly be looking at it from Danny's perspective. Disclaimer I'm not trying to imply I'm better than any of these players, it's just useful to analyze games to improve. Especially your own games. ESPECIALLY your losses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1755311542-zy3o9ae52oa33drv1w0fqd42j1ubzhzpw

MU and lead

View attachment 478693

So I think the MU is fairly balanced, Moute probably has to tip toe a lot to avoid getting swept by Oricorio (especially since Oricoria gets two chances with Revival) + Bramble tends to be good into Tsareena as hazard control. BUT - Gastrodon does wall most of Dany's team, especially as Tinkaton is not Encore for Danny and the Oricorio is tera ground + Bramble has no Grass stab + Azu has no Trailblaze. To be honest, the weakness to Gastrodon and Quagsire makes me think the team can be improved by adding a Grass move somewhere but I digress. Gengar also seems to be a big threat given no Ghost resist. All in all I think it's fairly balanced, if Gengar is like Specs + Gastrodon has Ice Beam I might pick Moute for MU, but not by a significant margin.

Anyways a lead of Azumarill seems reasonable - it's not really getting many opportunities. Actually, I think this is pretty interesting, a lot of people do that a strategy, lead with the mon they think has a fairly bad MU and can't switch in much. It has a few benefits, namely you of course get to come in at least once as a lead for free and you can be like "oh well if I lose it or have a bad lead, it doesn't matter as much since this mon wasn't that important anyways." Obviously this logic isn't always sound and you have to play the specific position, but it's a concrete point that not all players know about.


T1 - liquidation from Azu seems reasonable, keeping Tink low helps a few things, most notably Oricorio can have an easier time sweeping not having to deal with Encore Tinkaton.

T2 - another liquidation which again is reasonable for the same reason, another idea is Play Rough though as the Azumarill still has Aqua Jet later anyways if it predicts wrong here and Play Roughs the Tinkaton. Obviously that would require another prediction though so Liquidation isn't wrong per se.

T3 - This Liquidation I don't really get. This is kind of an example of making a turn based on your opponent's play. What could Moute do here? Powerwhip to kill Azu or U-Turn to Gastro to try and get momentum on a potential U-Turn smacking a switch in. Those are really the only reasonable plays, and Liquidation doesn't really make sense in either case. You could say if there's such thing as a midground play, this would be a low ground play! The only thing I can think of is Danny trying to save his sets (sorry bro Moute has laddered vs me with this team like many many times). That's really not worth the risk of letting Gastro get a free boost which is what happens.

T4 - Quag switch in seems fine, Bramble is tempting as well. But Quagsire does get 2HKO:


+1 0 SpA Gastrodon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

So idk, maybe just bite the bullet and stay in with Azumarill then switch out on a predicted rest is more accurate. I understand Danny might have been trying to swap out on a hazard set up turn, but eh, Gastrodon is already a huge threat by itself so Moute clicking an attack is perfectly reasonable.

T5 - Recover seems off. I assume Danny didn't know Earthpower was very likely to 2HKO. Or was predicting hazards again? Well the thing is, hazards was more likely on turn 4 than turn 5 (on turn 5, there was a clearer benefit to attacking quagsire to kill it or keep it low) and Moute showed already on turn 4 he already clicked the attacking move, so another attack on turn 5 was super likely. So the question is, assuming Quagsire is at like 1% and can use a move after Gastro attacks (i.e., assuming it lives Earth Power), what should we click? Well Recover doesn't make much sense, you're just putting yourself in a likely get KOd next turn and making no progress. Toxic or SR are the more reasonable options, Toxic probably best considering how bad Gastrodon went in.

T6 - Bramble probably better since it died to Ice Beam in one anyways later, might as well get the same position but with a living Quagsire. But I understand if you weren't going to calc on turn 4 and 5, you probably wouldn't calc now.

T7 - Spin or Spikes? No grass stab here so don't blame Danny for not clicking that. Of course we don't know Gastro has Ice Beam but we're aware it's a possibility and regardless, even if you think you're going to live this turn, Bramble still has to prioritize which to do first. Not sure if there is a clearly correct answer but I'd probably click Spin too to make Azu's life a lot easier. If you anticipate Ice Beam killing you, (well you probably should go Oricorio in this case but I digress), then Spikes makes little sense since no Bramble = Tsraeena can spin.

T8 - PR makes sense, at least make Gastro burn it's healing PP. But maybe Oricorio was an option instead of Azu, I think wanting to avoid setting up on a +1 Gastro is smart though so I think Azu is good.

T9 - Maybe I would have tried to set up Oricorio instead of going Tink - Oricorio is going to have to try and sweep and it won't get it immediately because Grafaiai exists, but landing a Revelation Dance on Grafaiai or Air Slash on Tsareena would have been important progress. Obviously that requires you to predict well but when you're down 6-4 without any obvious compensation then yeah you do have to try and make plays

T10 and 11 - Nevertheless, Danny makes progress like this (and I'm sure Grafaiai didn't have to eat the Hammer Spammer), more due to good fortune from the opponent's play than his own brilliant play, but this is progress nevertheless. I do get the psychology though - Moute is probably thinking Gastro did a shit ton of work so he wants to keep it in tip top shape and not lose Leftovers, still, it should have been worth it - losing 76% on Grafaiai means Oricorio sweep is looming. And getting Tink knocked for nothing also helps.

T12 - I have no idea what Danny clicked because encore switched his move! Wow! But yeah, staying in is fine for obvious reasons (tink is a grafaiai counter, why would you switch out on a mon that has a pivot move anyways). At this point, I think Danny is now winning although it's close bc Moute still has a revive.

T13 to 19 - I mean he did what he should have done (probably) - attack constantly and pressure Gastro. Honestly I probably would have just set up with Oricorio on turn 13 but avoiding Ice Beam hax is fine, with Grafaiai dead, Oricorio really should be a potent sweeper so his approach is probably correct. Was the crit important? Well yes it made it easier for Danny but as I said, I think he's already winning on turn 12.

T20 - yeah I think it's smart not to jet, you want to play rough to make sure Pawmot can't live + revival blessing.

T21 - Great teras, I didn't know Pawmot could do this to get Double Shock again tbh. So I wouldn't have tera'd Oricorio but apparently Danny did anticipate and know about this mechanic.

T22 - ehhh not a huge fan of another QD but it's not a bad play. The thing is, Revival Blessing Grafaiai is a bit annoying although it will have to likely Encore a Revelation Dance and kill itself like that to let Tsareena come in. The reason I'm not a fan is because I'd love to just kill Pawmot to not deal with this revive nonsense. Yes Tsareena has a (good) chance to live +1 Air Slash most likely (idk Moute's evs), but even if it revenges Oricorio, Danny can still revive it later + a dead Pawmot means Tinkaton has seriously sweeping chances for Danny as it's max speed speed SD.

T23 - i think just kill the pawmot? I mean Seed Bomb is healing more than Roost but Moute does something else anyways so maybe it worked out but Grafaiai is annoying.

T24 - obvious and good

T25 - obvious and good and forced

T26 - honestly, I think you sack Oricorio here to pwhip and do some damage with rdance, go to Tink and SD, then try and sweep. Not sure about hard switching to Tink but I suppose Oricorio is close to a sweep to. But Tink was very close to sweeping so yeah idk. There might be some psychology going on (not sure, maybe Danny just thought Oricorio is legit better at sweeping) - often times, when you have a mon that just did a lot of work, you want to preserver it. Oricorio just got 2 KOs so obviously you want to keep it, but in times like this you have to take a step back and breathe and objectively evaluate. Yes Oriocorio did work, but is it rlly better than tink? IMO no but this is not a clear yes/no question.

T27 - Twave seems too respectful to Moute - Gigaton put Tsareena in Air Slash range so I would have done that. Was he really going to Synthesis? Eh it seemed unlikely but I guess it's possible and what Danny anticipated

T28 - hammer is just as good as it was t27 when I said it was good

T29 - sd is fine so if Tsareena syntehsis now, it gets hammer spammered next turn

T30 - sack tink seems right

T31 - double shock seems right although maybe tsareena was better for Moute

T32 - maybe would have used QD here to make sure Tsareena dies to Air Slash, Gengar can't be Scarf or else it wouldn't have killed Pawmot.

T33 - obvious and good

Anyways an entertaining game - anyone (including players) feel free to tell me if something I said makes no sense and I'm an idiot which is entirely possible, even likely.

My turn:

T3: made a predict but didn’t follow through, can’t rlly remember my thought process, was most likely a stupid onI can just cop out saying I was lost in the sauce.

T4-T7: i honestly thought I was unaware. All the following bc turns were me panicking bc I wasn’t and felt like I lost to gastro immediately. Not calcing but me in the ass, was also a bit on a time crunch so for some reason my in game head thought that was normal damage. Needless to say if anyone watches my next round match vs Cam I changed the Azu to trailblaze.

T9: Wanted to get chip on the gastro by potentially getting an SD, that was def best play however I went for the no drawback Knock.

T10-T12: I wanted to stop rocks from going up, honestly expected a gastro there if he wanted to potentially keep the sack. Think the graf pivot was greedy but we take that bc let’s ori win later.

T13-T19: yeah i was crit fishing. Although pif believes I was ahead I still felt super lost into gastro. I feared freeze and ur analysis was spot on.

T21: completely agree w moute’s take on tera, regardless I Tera’d bc only world where it was scary was if he shocked again as I set up.

T22: ngl there were two fears in my mind when I set up a second qd: scarf gar could trick me into it one of air slash or ground move making it hard to win the endgame, second reason I qd’d there was I did not want to be outsped by what I thought was scarf pawmot initially. When it revealed the seed bomb I felt fine about that one, but then I feared sash which is why I roosted the next turn.

T26: my switch was predicated on it being scarf hat which couldn’t do much damage to ori. Also thought that it won better than tink as tink is relatively weak. Expected a tsar trade>scarf gar to win atp.

T27: wanted to make sure the tsar is slower than ori(ori didn’t outspeed jolly tsar at the time)

Made a lot of mistakes but the good plays/good luck ended up outweighing this time. Thanks for analyzing this game. It def helped me learn ab my play and hopefully others can glean something from the game. Ggs to Moutemoute and mb for the fortune in game 2, series could’ve gone either way.

 

[Vall]

Man Oricorio is surprisingly solid considering its stat spread. Quiver Dance is the best boosting move it could ask for, and in a meta with tera, revelation dance cures it of any 4MSS it might've had.

 

[SunsetCatto]

firstly i should say im terrible with builds so i need some advice on my Lurantis new moveset now that it's been nerfed and I'm wondering how it is? Lurantis is one of my favourite designs so they're a must on my team even if they aren't the strongest/best pick - I should also mention I dont think i'll be using this for online competitive

Nature: Bold

Ability: leaf guard would be better than contrary with these moves right?

EVs: 252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD

Terra Type: Grass

Moves:

• Leaf Blade
• Synthasis
• Sunny Day
• Furry Cutter

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

firstly i should say im terrible with builds so i need some advice on my Lurantis new moveset now that it's been nerfed and I'm wondering how it is? Lurantis is one of my favourite designs so they're a must on my team even if they aren't the strongest/best pick - I should also mention I dont think i'll be using this for online competitive

Nature: Bold

Ability: leaf guard would be better than contrary with these moves right?

EVs: 252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD

Terra Type: Grass

Moves:

• Leaf Blade
• Synthasis
• Sunny Day
• Furry Cutter

Personally I'd recommend sticking to a Tank set focusing on Contrary despite the lack of Superpower and general coverage solely because Lurantis is entirely outclassed by Tsareena at the role shown above. The only relevant things outside of Contrary shenadigans Lurantis has over Tsareena are Defog and Swords Dance + Trailblaze, so I'd recommend sticking with either of those 2 variants if you really want to use Lurantis but don't want to use Contrary.

The set listed above could easily be made into some kind of bulky Defog variant by just swapping out Sunny Day for Defog and Fury Cutter for a better coverage move (Brick Break is nice for Bisharp and Screens for an example). You probably wanna run Contrary in general here given that it's strictly a benefit most of the time (Evasion Boost from Defog, Speed Boost from webs, Attack Boost from Play Rough etc). Of course you could also run double Grass Stab + Contrary on this variant aswell since your coverage will be awful either way.

Also one more thing to note is that you might want to run near max speed just so you can guaranteed outspeed Adamant Azumarill if you want to use an offensive variant (minimum you should want 200 speed).

 

[MasterPlayer]

What are the chances that Staraptor doesn't get banned to UUBL this generation? Because I'm not really hearing much about it, but I'm hearing stuff from the OU metagame forum that Tyraniar (and maybe Toxapex) might drop to UU by lack of usage

 

[Moutemoute]

What are the chances that Staraptor doesn't get banned to UUBL this generation? Because I'm not really hearing much about it, but I'm hearing stuff from the OU metagame forum that Tyraniar (and maybe Toxapex) might drop to UU by lack of usage

At the moment, I would say they're pretty low. A lot of Pokémon are Terastallizing into Steel-type which neutralise naturally Staraptor. We also have common staples such as Pawmot or Gengar which are faster than non-Choice Scarf variants of Staraptor. It's tough to tell if it will be the same in the future, but atm, Staraptor is fine in UU.

 

[MasterPlayer]

If TTar drops to UU I can tell that Tinkaton's usage will practically skyrocket just to handle Tyranitar, and maybe Lucario's usage too, but Toxapex dropping is gonna shift the entire tier around, especially once Espathra gets potentially banned.

 

[InChandyWeTrust]

I have a thought. If OU does something about Tera, it'll obviously affect UU to start with, but wouldn't a non-transitive ban be possible in this case (such as Drought being allowed in SM RU despite being banned in SM UU)? What would stop us from running a suspect of our own?

 

[Moutemoute]

I have a thought. If OU does something about Tera, it'll obviously affect UU to start with, but wouldn't a non-transitive ban be possible in this case (such as Drought being allowed in SM RU despite being banned in SM UU)? What would stop us from running a suspect of our own?

I'm sorry but this is really becoming laughable. You really digging up something seven years old while we have rehearsed the fact that currently, all lower tiers must apply OU bans. Comparing with the Drought issue we had in SM RU / SM UU doesn't work either since we're talking here about issues between two low tiers and not one low tier and OU. Think about it like laws IRL, questionning them leads to nothing, that's pretty much the same here. This is how the current tiering policy works and asking for changes within the UU subforum make no senses + it polluts the NP thread for nothing.

By the way I'd like to talk about two things I tried recently (I hope this will refocus the discussion on our tier and not anything else).

Tsareena @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 64 Def / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Synthesis
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
- Trop Kick

Yesterday while talking on the UU room on PS! I thought about Trop Kick Tsareena which could be something fun to use. The only issue we had while talking about this is the fact that unlike Power Whip which can ensure an OHKO on Azumarill (even with 0 investment), Trop Kick is pretty weak. I tried to think about this and that's how this strange spread appeared. 112 EVs in attack alongside an Adamant nature allows Tsareena to OHKO Azumarill if it used Belly Drum (it basically deals at least 75% which is the health Azumarill has after using Belly Drum and used its Sitrus Berry). Trop Kick can be pretty nice to handle some threats (alongisde Tera Fairy) thanks to the debuff it provides (I'm thinking things like physical setup sweepers). Not the best set for sure of Tsareena but something to think about.

Oricorio-Sensu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Quiver Dance
- Revelation Dance
- Air Slash

While Pom-Pom is definitively better than its Sensu variant, I really like the Ghost-type of Sensu which allows it to be a good Rapid Spin detterant. Revelation Dance changing its typing alongside Terastallization is cracked (even tho once again I think Pom-Pom can benefit this mechanic more than Sensu). It's quite unfortunate that Sensu doesn't get any Ghost-type STAB excepting Revelation Dance. The EVs spread maximize its physical bulk while reaching 263 speed which allows it to outspeed 110 Speed at +1 after 2 Quiver Dance (notably Choice Scarf Gengar). You're also outspeeding the whole unboosted metagame after a single Quiver Dance which is nice.

 

[Slip]

Tsareena @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Queenly Majesty
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 64 Def / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Synthesis
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
- Trop Kick

Yesterday while talking on the UU room on PS! I thought about Trop Kick Tsareena which could be something fun to use. The only issue we had while talking about this is the fact that unlike Power Whip which can ensure an OHKO on Azumarill (even with 0 investment), Trop Kick is pretty weak. I tried to think about this and that's how this strange spread appeared. 112 EVs in attack alongside an Adamant nature allows Tsareena to OHKO Azumarill if it used Belly Drum (it basically deals at least 75% which is the health Azumarill has after using Belly Drum and used its Sitrus Berry). Trop Kick can be pretty nice to handle some threats (alongisde Tera Fairy) thanks to the debuff it provides (I'm thinking things like physical setup sweepers). Not the best set for sure of Tsareena but something to think about.

I think the idea is interesting, but im not exactly sold on this with hdb quite yet. Based on my general experience with this set (looking at you posting it), I feel like the place where trop kick shines is for switch ins that Tsareena struggles against in order to give your team an easier time to switch in against the Pokemon (Talonflame or Tinkaton for example). Because of this, I think this set would be really cool with Protective Pads in order to be able to ignore Flame Body on Talonflame or the rare Rocky Helmet that can cause issues due to the lack of damage. This makes Tsareena quite a bit weaker to hazards and a bit worse of a spinner, so adding a 2nd hazard clear option would be a good idea as it isn't too hard to run right now (friendly Talonflame for example). I think the tech is very interesting overall tho!

 

[Lily]

I'm sorry but this is really becoming laughable. You really digging up something seven years old while we have rehearsed the fact that currently, all lower tiers must apply OU bans. Comparing with the Drought issue we had in SM RU / SM UU doesn't work either since we're talking here about issues between two low tiers and not one low tier and OU. Think about it like laws IRL, questionning them leads to nothing, that's pretty much the same here. This is how the current tiering policy works and asking for changes within the UU subforum make no senses + it polluts the NP thread for nothing.

I appreciate that you're just trying to educate but this type of tone really isn't necessary, especially not when speaking to newcomers to the tier. It'd be best to explain things in a more rational manner in future please!

But anyway, to explain why we can't do a non-transitive ban;

I have a thought. If OU does something about Tera, it'll obviously affect UU to start with, but wouldn't a non-transitive ban be possible in this case (such as Drought being allowed in SM RU despite being banned in SM UU)? What would stop us from running a suspect of our own?

older bans like this SM RU one (crazy to think of SM as old...) were enacted in a time where tiering policy was a bit less rigid and cohesive than it currently is. There were lots of conversations about whether or not this should be the case going forward, until eventually it was realised that everything should follow a simple rule of thumb - anything legal in a tier should also be legal in the tiers above it. So anything legal in SV UU should also be legal in SV OU, but not necessarily SV RU. Note that this does not apply to Ubers as it is a parallel tier and not a lower tier.

With this in mind, we can't do any non-transitive bans. Believe me, as much as I'd like to have full control over the tier's Tera vote, we're in this together for better or worse; the best thing to do would be to get OU reqs while you've still got the opportunity.

Anyway, that's gonna have to be the end of the discussion here. There's nothing more we can do and it's derailing this thread pretty heavily; any further posts about whether or not we can break away from OU's Tera decision will be deleted and potentially infracted. Resident new forum mod Monky25 will have a final post on the topic shortly, though, so stay tuned for that.

 

[Monky25]

As Lily alluded to in her post, I'm here representing the UU forum moderation team requesting to put an end to this discussion. Topics like this are more about the broader sense of tiering rather than mechanic preservation and OU vs UU semantics, meaning this type of subject is more appropriate for a PR thread and even then, the current tiering model is planned to be transitive and will likely stay that way to avoid complications, meaning whatever happens in OU happens to UU as of now. Looking further back than gen 8 is a pretty pointless endeavor as tiering becomes more in-line and sophisticated as time goes on, so the comparisons to gen 7 drought do not really hold up. UU is in the beginning phases of the metagame and will be completely different a few weeks into beta, so this topic doesn’t really hold up at the moment, not to mention the fact that OU's decision will play a part in the development of the UU tier as many of the dynamics here involve Tera even if a large amount is healthy utilization of the mechanic. The point is, this discussion isn’t meant for the UU subforum involving a tier in its Alpha stage when a decision regarding Tera has yet to be reached (even though it's very unlikely to have a full ban from the get-go), so we're going to shut this discussion down to prevent circular arguments from clogging up the thread. Further posts involving this topic will be deleted and repeated offenders are subject to infraction. Happy future posting in the final hours of the Alpha Metagame!

 

[Lavern]

Oricorio-Sensu @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Dancer
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Quiver Dance
- Revelation Dance
- Air Slash

I use the same benchmark for Ori-Sensu, as outspeeding Scarf Gengar at +2 is very important. However, I just wanted to point that using a spread of 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe with a Timid Nature is more efficient. The Timid nature gives you an extra speed point, allowing you to outspeed Jolteon at +1, instead of being tied with it (I know, Jolteon is irrelevant, but hey, it's a free speed point). 188 Def EVs with a Timid nature leave Oricorio with 223 points in Defense, while 96 Def EVs with a Bold nature only give it 220 Defense points.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Has anyone experimented with Kricketune? Because it got some nice moves that actually makes it better, and one of them is Sticky Web, which might help it bypass it's speed issues. It also has Pounce, which it gets both STAB and a Technician boost, just like Scyther (and by extension, the OU Pokemon Scizor does). But Kricketune also has Fell Stinger, again with STAB and Technician, which with Tera Bug might actually make it difficult to safely switch into, and which Scizor doesn't have

 

[Siuan]

Has anyone experimented with Kricketune? Because it got some nice moves that actually makes it better, and one of them is Sticky Web, which might help it bypass it's speed issues. It also has Pounce, which it gets both STAB and a Technician boost, just like Scyther (and by extension, the OU Pokemon Scizor does). But Kricketune also has Fell Stinger, again with STAB and Technician, which with Tera Bug might actually make it difficult to safely switch into, and which Scizor doesn't have

Unfortunately I doubt Kricketune has any niche even with those qualities. It's stats are too low to be anything but a Sticky Web lead, and it's outclassed in that role by Spidops, who has a better movepool and better bulk, and by Masquerain, who has a better movepool, offensive stats, defensive stats, and speed. If you try using it offensively, you'll find that it will fail to do much due to it's poor speed, lack of priority, poor attack, and nonexistent offensive movepool. Bug is not a great offensive typing, and even assuming you get +6 from Fell Stinger, it still misses KOs. You probably won't be able to get an attack off in the first place due to its base 65 speed, and I'm pretty sure every other pokemon wins a straight 1v1 vs Kricketune, so no one will switch out on Kricketune. Using Tera on Kricketune is pretty much guaranteed to be a waste, especially given the opportunity cost.

Sticky Web bypassing its speed issues is not realistic. It's assuming that you'll lead Kricketune, get a Sticky Web off, survive an attack, switch out, and get an opportunity to switch back in safely. Either that, or you're using Masquerain/Spidops as a Sticky Web lead instead, and Kricketune is being used as a cleaner/revenge killer. In which case you have two of Masquerain/Spidops/Kricketune on your team, which is great if your goal is giving away Elo in celebration of the New Years, but not great if your goal is winning.