Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Who Let The Dogs Out

[Finchinator]

Thanks: and what is your opinion on the next statement? zama-h could simply tera to either make body press stronger or boost the strength of it’s coverage move while also providing some defensive utility (Tera electric turns it’s flying weakness into a resistance and bashes corviknight, dondozo and toxapex with wild charge; Tera dark turns it’s psychic weakness into an immunity and decimates ghost types with crunch; and Tera steel not only turns it’s fairy weakness into a resistance, and also maul fairies with iron head, but Tera steell is possibly the best Tera type in the game)

I almost always use off-STAB Tera types on Zama-H; my current favorites are Dark (Crunch bolster and helps defensively) and Fire (Wisp immunity from Infiltrator Pult and stifles Enamorus/Valiant). I am sure other types like Fighting, Electric, etc have merit though

 

[VigilanteV8]

I just got the requirements and, in short, my judgment on Zamazenta is: DO NOT BAN.

I think that regular Zamazenta is a rather good mon but it has too many weaknesses to be considered ban worthy. I will try to gather my thoughts on it in an organized way:

general limitations of Zamazenta:

-first of all this pokémon is held back by the fact it has no ability. Yes +1 defence boost only on the first switch is close to useless on this mon. This is understandable when looking at the only viable sets it posseses that you can find below.

-This pokémon is affected by every single hazard. Coupled with the lack of recovery moves this is in my opinion a crucial limitation.

-The movepool is just decent. Yes it has workable coverage but the lack of good boosting moons other than iron defence (I will talk about that), pivotting moves, hazards or any useful status move really holds this pokémon back. It has an extremely limited amount of tools and this leads me to my next point.

It has just two sets: similarly with what I did with walking wake (history prove me right at the time) I want to bring this argument: this mon has just two viable sets. This is important has my analysis is based soley on these two as those sets are really the only thing that a Zamazenta can run effectively. The sets are iron defence + body press and Choice band (then of course there are variants with movepool, evs, etc.). This is already a limitation as this makes the mon much more predictable, of course this alone is not enough as a mon can have even just one viable set and be too much more OU.

Both sets have severe limitations:

CB limitations: in my personal opinion the best set is choice band. It leverages effectively the extremely high speed of Zamazenta, second only to dragapult in the tier, and the rather decent movepool and attack of this mon. 120 base attack with STAB cc, stone edge, wild charge, crunch for gholdengo, play rough etc. is respectable. With 138 base speed it's legit good. With that being said I think it's good, but far from being bannable. I mean first of all in THEORY you can threaten almost everything, in practice you will need to predict alot and take huge risks. CC, the main weapon of this set, gotta be the least spammable move ever. With zapdos running around you really need to think twice before clicking that, yes you can stone edge but the move literally has 8 PP and 80 acc. Great Tusk can switch somewhat safely and take 0% from it and you lost one valuable PP and momentum. This was just one small example to get to the following point: you have extremely limited amount of PP on two of your best moves (CC and Stone edge) and there are lots and lots of mon that can switch to those. When i say lots of mon i really mean it:

checks:

,

,

,

(this bro 100% walls, not even needs predicts lol),

,

(if you don't click CC against it free 17% tax on zama HP and your momentum gets OKHOED since it will u turn on your face),

(lets be real zamazenta just gets boongussed, that psy fang ain't taking it anywhere).

,

,

,

.

I'm not saying that all these mons wall zamazenta. At the same time it's undeniable that those are extremely annoying to deal with for the CB set. Keep in mind that those are not only OU mons, but they are like top 50% of OU. Some may have rose and some may have fallen, we will see with the next viability rankings, but all of these are actually TOP OU picks. If I had to continue the list of annoying mons to CB Zamazenta I could continue without too many issues. There are fare too many things that check or even counter (lando and boonguss are counters, even pex could be considered a counter to CB zamazenta in my humble opinion since it has regenerator and wild charege ain't doing that much).

Bonus section, revenge killers:

,

,

. Zamazenta is blessed with 138 speed tier, so not many things can outspeed and revenge kill it. Sadly those 3 things that can revenge kill it are like the OUEST things ever. All of these 3 mons are extremely good and popular, (yes just valiant OKHOS, but the other 2 not only do alot of damage, but they can come in for the revenge kill easily due to their ghost typings).

As you can see the amount of GOOD, legit OU ranked mons, that can create problems to CB zamazenta is extremely high. There are too many answers (total or even partial answers) that make CB zamazenta nothing more than good. With that out of the way let's talk about the other set.

Body press set Limitations: I know, this set sounds very scary. Zamazenta with body press? I mean this sounds like ban material. The problem is that it just sounds like it, but if we take a deeper look i really don't think it's the case. First of all let's just bring with us immediately the three counters:

-

,

,

. Yes all three of this mons counter in different ways: two of those are just not aware of zamazenta's body. Dondozo takes 0 damage, skeledridge is vulnerable to crunch but without attack evs? That thing prob does like 40%. With tera water/fairy dridge walls zamazenta for days and after a couple of torch songs the dog is cooked. Pex has a number of ways it can deal with the tauntless dog: You either baneful bunker and poison it or Just haze the boosts away and slowly take out the subs with surf. Either way it takes no form of damage from press zamazenta.

what happens if you don't have any of those 3 mons? well we are talking about a set that requires set up. Mons like infliltrator dragapult, valiant (takes no damage from body press) or even enamorous can break the sub and leave it vulnerable. If you don't have the 3 counters listed above you can still deal with this set and find your way to deal with it. Again Zamazenta still suffers from all of the limitations above, body press set is good but it's extremely matchup reliant. The previously mentioned annoying mons still hold for this set: zapdos is still a pain to deal with even for this set as it takes little damage even from +2 body press and can para and its moves can break the sub. Iron defense + press Zamazenta is for sure not an insta win mon.

In my opinion the dog is a good/very good mon that brings to the table unique traits that we have never seen before. With that being said it just has too many limitations/checks to be considered ban worthy, I think it can have an healthy presence in the meta.

PS: I really don't know why

got banned. It's literally zamazenta hero but worse since it cannot run an item (huge, gigantic, COLOSSAL limitation) and is weak to ground/figthing. It is immune to poison and not fairy weak so it has some merit. It may have been broken but I think the ban was just too fast. I really never had the chance to see how good/bad it was (I alaways won against it in the first couple of days but I don't know, I have too little experience against it). I Think that now what has been done has been done but I really don't know what happened to this mon and why it got banned so quickly. Just my 2 cents, a suspect in this case would probably have been better but I'm aware that balancing gen 9 is not an easy task by any means. I respect the decision that has been made but I think things could have been carried out differently in this specific case.

 

[malomyotismon]

The body press set is much weaker for the heroic hound than when crowned. That fighting steel type combined with buffed defences do wonders for it. Mean while hero is stuck with lower defences and a mono typing that leaves much to be desire southside stab. 4 mss sucks for the puppet mainly on the ID BP set, you can rest and have sleep talk but need support to deal with ghosts and other counters or have crunch coverage and have issues staying healthy consitently with blissey line being the only available clerics ATM. Band set suffers from the mundane mono typing, with a passable movepool that grants good coverage yet still wants more provided by other CB using candidates. Still it's fast very fast, bulker than something so fast with solid attack has much right to be and that BP set because of its power and speed can get out of hand very fast. In all honesty it feels that the meta has enough answers in it's already commonly seen walls and tanks like the don or croc that keep it in check along side its flaws, so hopefully I hope it stays and most others agree.

 

[awyp]

I'll be voting no ban on Zamazenta (very close call)

I've used it quite a bunch honestly and the only set to be honest that makes it a borderline decision is the Substitute Body Press Iron Defense Filler-Move set. This is the set I'll be talking about, Fairy Garganacl takes around 50% damage when Zama is +4 Defense Body Press, you can Iron Defense once and start to Recover (Stall it out and Nacl Body Press breaks substitute after 2 hits +4), Skeledirge is an obvious choice of something that switches on it well since it's a ghost type and Torch Song bypasses through substitute.

Taunt Landorus with Rocky Helmet gives it problems, Dragapult Choice Specs breaks through the substitute with Infiltrator and Draco Meteor from a Choice Specs timid set does about:

Draco Damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it decides to substitute there's a solid chance you can catch it on the Substitute and most likely OHKO with Draco Meteor. Physically defensive Slowking Galar is also a good option because you can switch onto a Body Press pretty comfortably and start spamming Future Sight and breaking the Substitute with Sludge Bomb. Iron Valiant (Booster Energy) is a solid switching if it doesn't have Heavy Slam.

These I feel like are some of the Checks / Counters

In terms of the mon itself, as I said in a previous post 120 Base Attack when it's usually not running Adamant is not a lot, it's only access to power up its attack is Howl as well as using a Choice Band item. It's bulk is really solid for sure but nothing outlandish, it's speed is pretty superb and probably it's high point. I honestly don't see it bad for the meta there's a lot more toxic mons out there that we need to attack, I won't list them here because I don't want this to get off topic.

So yeah, I think there's more then enough checks, it's not terribly strong and I'm looking forward to the results (Don't really care which side it goes to because I understand both pro / con arguments).

 

[CD56]

Hi, I am making a new account on this forum for the suspect. I may have not gotten reqs but I have used this mon quite a bit and I wanted to voice my thoughts.

Zamazenta is a very good pokemon, with a couple of very threatening sets that I will discuss, but with my testing and theorycrafting. I have determined that it is not banworthy, but this decision was not one I took lightly. I was on the fence for a while, because it has such an amazing matchup vs many offensive squads, but all sets have their own issues vs fat teams and even common balance teams.

My favorite set is choice band. With your choice of close combat, crunch, stone edge, wild charge, heavy slam, ice fang (lol), or play rough, you have the ability to potentially threaten almost every mon in the tier. That is the key word though, POTENTIALLY. In reality, common defensive pokemon can quite easily scout this set, because most defensive mons do not get OKHO’d by zamazenta’s coverage moves. This set can be punished by zapdos, toxapex, skeledirge, dondozo (this one especially), gholdengo, enamorus, and a lot of other great pokemon. This set requires an insane amount of good prediction in most games to get the most leverage out of it, so I think it is healthy.

Now for the meat and potatoes, and why it is being suspected. The sub lefties set. This set is very good at dodging debilitating moves like toxic, will o wisp (except dragapult) and knock off, while also potentially threatening a sweep immediately against many offensive teams. Offensive teams have some recourse against it. Infiltrator dragapult puts heavy pressure on it from the jump, same with scarf enamorus or booster energy iron valiant, and zapdos is also still good on offensive teams too. Against defensive teams however, I have found this set to be kind of dead weight. All unaware mons completely stuff it, as well as haze toxapex and other similarly fat mons. It struggles to make progress against these teams even at +6. With this in mind, I think this set is balanced too, as even though this set is very good against offense, I do not think it is unbeatable if your team is healthy enough to withstand the assault. Forcing zamazenta out can win you the game for an offense team. As I said for defense this set can tend to be somewhat of a liability too, so I think this set too, is balanced.

I have also seen some fringe sets like lum berry and resto chesto even, but these sets give the ability to survive status but give up the breaking power of band or the protection of substitute. It is also very annoyed by spikes, and toxic spikes (while rare) are a death sentence for it, so setting early hazards is a really good way to prevent zamazenta from coming in a full health and putting a lick on your team.

Now I want to talk about its good points and why I would argue it is healthy for the metagame. First and foremost, it is a premier kingambit stop, especially with dauntless shield, and unlike something like great tusk, it lacks much other defensive utility other than checking certain problematic pokemon, so it can be relied to do this job often and consistently. As I mentioned earlier, offense has a tough time against this thing, which I argue is good, because it puts a little bit more balance in the metagame and gives fat teams a reason to be run, and it also improves balance teams since they naturally run many great checks to zamazenta such as gholdengo or zapdos. Its great speed and bulk let it act as an emergency check to almost any sweeper in the tier, and can prevent those pokemon from running a train on your team.

With these in mind, though zamazenta has awesome stats, particularly its speed, its ability, movepool, and typing are all answerable by the metagame. tera obviously complicates things, but that is not necessarily the fault of zamazenta, and it doesnt abuse tera in the same way as the premier abusers like volcarona did. It cannot pick and choose its counters with tera, it can just flip certain matchups while still being open to many counterattacks afterward. So, if I do get requirements, I will be voting DO NOT BAN.

As a side note, crowned absolutely does not have a place in the tier. steel typing makes it immune to toxic and neutral to fairy psychic and flying, so offensive teams are actually completely helpless against it. I even ran rest on it because its so bulky and that can be a game ender too. 140 is also in a different league from 115 when doing body press shenanigans. Even if it was predictable, It was not reliably stopped by offense, and even defense had to be careful to not let their skeledirge get worn down into range of heavy slam, since usually most teams only had one pokemon that could deal with it, as opposed to hero form who has an immense amount of counterplay that is adaptable and fluid. Thanks for reading!

 

[LoseToRU?]

Wow, thread kinda a graveyard lol
Not sure if it's just interest in this meta slowing down or the fact Zama should have been a QB.

Anyway, I love having a dedicated switch in for Gambit.
Anything that helps you mitigate the cringe that is Gambit late game will always be appreciated

That said, will be voting ban.

Tera breaks this mon.
Specifically Tera Electric, Steel, and Ice- but Fairy and others I'm sure will pop up.

If Tera was gone, Zama fills a much needed niche as a physical check that isn't a passive momentum sap.
However, any and all counterplay is invalidated by tera.

I don't know why some players are so shortsighted that they think this thing won't be broken by sets that will rise in popularity.
I'll try to illuminate why Zama can't stay. Even though it should be obvious, I'll break it down.

Zamazenta-Hero draws in a handful of specific Pokemon that can shut down its normal, defensive set such as Haze Toxapex, an accurate Zapdos, Iron Valiant or most Unaware Pokemon depending on how it specifically fills out its set.

For example, Zamazenta-Hero can run Tera Fire to take Will-O-Wisp from Dragapult and Moonblast from Enamorus.

but it is can be stopped with the tools we have in the tier.

It has just two sets

checks:

,

,

,

(this bro 100% walls, not even needs predicts lol),

,

(if you don't click CC against it free 17% tax on zama HP and your momentum gets OKHOED since it will u turn on your face),

(lets be real zamazenta just gets boongussed, that psy fang ain't taking it anywhere).

,

,

,

.

Bonus section, revenge killers:

,

,

. Zamazenta is blessed with 138 speed tier, so not many things can outspeed and revenge kill it. Sadly those 3 things that can revenge kill it are like the OUEST things ever. All of these 3 mons are extremely good and popular, (yes just valiant OKHOS, but the other 2 not only do alot of damage, but they can come in for the revenge kill easily due to their ghost typings).

-

,

,

. Yes all three of this mons counter in different ways: two of those are just not aware of zamazenta's body. Dondozo takes 0 damage, skeledridge is vulnerable to crunch but without attack evs? That thing prob does like 40%. With tera water/fairy dridge walls zamazenta for days and after a couple of torch songs the dog is cooked. Pex has a number of ways it can deal with the tauntless dog: You either baneful bunker and poison it or Just haze the boosts away and slowly take out the subs with surf. Either way it takes no form of damage from press zamazenta..

I'll be voting no ban on Zamazenta (very close call)

I've used it quite a bunch honestly and the only set to be honest that makes it a borderline decision is the Substitute Body Press Iron Defense Filler-Move set. This is the set I'll be talking about, Fairy Garganacl takes around 50% damage when Zama is +4 Defense Body Press, you can Iron Defense once and start to Recover (Stall it out and Nacl Body Press breaks substitute after 2 hits +4), Skeledirge is an obvious choice of something that switches on it well since it's a ghost type and Torch Song bypasses through substitute.

Taunt Landorus with Rocky Helmet gives it problems, Dragapult Choice Specs breaks through the substitute with Infiltrator and Draco Meteor from a Choice Specs timid set does about:

Draco Damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it decides to substitute there's a solid chance you can catch it on the Substitute and most likely OHKO with Draco Meteor. Physically defensive Slowking Galar is also a good option because you can switch onto a Body Press pretty comfortably and start spamming Future Sight and breaking the Substitute with Sludge Bomb. Iron Valiant (Booster Energy) is a solid switching if it doesn't have Heavy Slam.

These I feel like are some of the Checks / Counters

Of the few tools we really have to stop it are dedicated, incredibly passive walls such as Dozo, and Pex, but they still lose when u factor in Tera.
And the other set of tools, RK such as Pult and Val still lose when Zama variants pick up in usage as needed.

This is the set I'm running now, and without dedicated answers it's shredding teams.

Zamazenta @ Lum Berry
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 240 Atk / 100 Def / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam
- Crunch

But let's drop Crunch or Heavy Slam and replace it w Tera blast.

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 162-192 (32.1 - 38%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO

So Dozo comes in, takes a 1/3, then another, forcing it to Rest, because Curse doesn't save it at that point, and now u have all the momentum, and a sleeping Dozo that loses this exchange later.

And, as you see, this is not a max attack variant, just the same old set that also beats Zapdos and Corv.

If we keep Crunch, it beats Dirge, G-King, and Gold more often than not

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 164-194 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 170-202 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Amoong? Well Finch mentioned Tera Fire.

240 Atk Tera Fire Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 242-288 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What about Lando, Tusk, Clod?
Tera Ice.

240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 146-174 (33.6 - 40%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This set doesn't run CC, but even if it did, you can just ID on the switch in.)
Offensive tusk takes 80 and doesn't OHKO back with CC if Zama is at +1 defense.

240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 366-432 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 256-304 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 324-382 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 331-391 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(The Tera Elec set still beats Zap anyway, but just putting it here as well)

So, no, thanks to Tera there is no consistent counterplay, and at best it forces you to defensive tera, which leaves you vulnerable to the 5 other mons.
Were you saving your defensive tera for late game? Too bad, you have to handle Zama first, and then get blown away later.

This is a mon that can clearly picks it's counters.
Didn't we just ban Volc for that same thing?

Ah so what about revenge killing?

Well, Zama is still in it's infancy, and will definitely have more than 2 sets before it's all said and done lmao.

Zama will obviously scare out a lot of mons, and/or is tanky enough to take neutral attacks, and get a free Trailblaze/Agility either way.


Zamazenta @ Expert Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Trailblaze/Agility
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Close Combat

Adamant still outspeeds Booster Val at +1, btw lol

252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 238-281 (82.3 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's without SR or Spikes up, as if that's ever going to happen lol

1 layer is 65% to OHKO, SR + 1 layer is OHKO

Or you could Tera if they somehow avoid a flinch and somehow there is no hazards

252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Steel Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 355-420 (122.8 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gold? Gold folds

252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-269 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and again, healthy, no hazards, but Gold can't even KO back in this exchange if both are healthy.

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 178-210 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That leaves Pult, who has to be Timid to outspeed, and loses to Agility.

Again, we can calc no hazards and assume you haven't let Pult get touched.

252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 276-326 (87 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(Obviously OHKO with 1 layer or SR)

You could Draco, and then leave yourself wide open.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Or pray Zama is at half HP lol

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 145-172 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO

But again, you could just Tera Steel and eat a Draco, Make it Rain and Moonblast.
You don't even need Expert Belt tbh if you tera Steel, you could run HDB so you're always at full and free to eat attacks.
Tera Steel just makes it Zama-Crowned, y'know, the QB, obv broken mon lol.

Btw, I was being nice with the expert belt Iron Head set, I didn't want any complaints about this set being Tera reliant.
But, Tera Fairy is a clean OHKO on Val and Pult, and you avoid Draco.
And, if using Agility, you can free up a lot of those Speed EVs and put them towards bulk.

And who knows what sets will pop up given enough time.
Scarf, Howl, AV, Endure+Reversal, Solar Beam, Impression + Rest, etc.
This is more of a side point, but still.

I'm not even going to get into the CB set lol, those calcs are really insane.

So yeah, the mon with 660 BST that are distributed amazingly, an ability that gives it a free +1 in Defense, with a great movepool, is going to be broken in a Tera meta.

Let me save someone some embarrassment; if your main talking point is that you need to burn your Tera to defensively check this mon, then that's just proof it's broken.
There should never be a mon that you have to burn your tera to handle it somehow.
Even the most broken mons in OU right now, like Val, Gambit, Pult have mons that can handle them without defensive tera.
Even if Val, Gambit, Pult offensively tera, there are still mons that handle them without needing to burn their tera.
So just think about that before you type anything.

We could suspect it again post-tera and I would vote no ban, but I'm failing to understand why anyone who knows what they're talking about thinks this mon is acceptable as of right now.

To the council members who voted no-ban... I'm assuming you just wanted to give us something to do.

In conclusion, keep in mind that I've posted calcs for the literal handful of mons that were talked about as checks.
Please remember that these are the few mons that don't get blown away by +3 and above Body Press sets.
There are teams that basically get 6-0 by Zama after an ID or two, especially Balance, and forsure without a Dozo.

Zama can pick it's counters, punches giant holes in teams, and hasn't reached it's full potential as an oppressive force.

Voting: BAN

 

[VigilanteV8]

Wow, thread kinda a graveyard lol
Not sure if it's just interest in this meta slowing down or the fact Zama should have been a QB.

Anyway, I love having a dedicated switch in for Gambit.
Anything that helps you mitigate the cringe that is Gambit late game will always be appreciated

That said, will be voting ban.

Tera breaks this mon.
Specifically Tera Electric, Steel, and Ice- but Fairy and others I'm sure will pop up.

If Tera was gone, Zama fills a much needed niche as a physical check that isn't a passive momentum sap.
However, any and all counterplay is invalidated by tera.

I don't know why some players are so shortsighted that they think this thing won't be broken by sets that will rise in popularity.
I'll try to illuminate why Zama can't stay. Even though it should be obvious, I'll break it down.











Of the few tools we really have to stop it are dedicated, incredibly passive walls such as Dozo, and Pex, but they still lose when u factor in Tera.
And the other set of tools, RK such as Pult and Val still lose when Zama variants pick up in usage as needed.

This is the set I'm running now, and without dedicated answers it's shredding teams.

Zamazenta @ Lum Berry
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 240 Atk / 100 Def / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam
- Crunch

But let's drop Crunch or Heavy Slam and replace it w Tera blast.

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
recovery

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 162-192 (32.1 - 38%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO

So Dozo comes in, takes a 1/3, then another, forcing it to Rest, because Curse doesn't save it at that point, and now u have all the momentum, and a sleeping Dozo that loses this exchange later.

And, as you see, this is not a max attack variant, just the same old set that also beats Zapdos and Corv.

If we keep Crunch, it beats Dirge, G-King, and Gold more often than not

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 164-194 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 170-202 (53.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And Amoong? Well Finch mentioned Tera Fire.

240 Atk Tera Fire Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 242-288 (56 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What about Lando, Tusk, Clod?
Tera Ice.

240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 146-174 (33.6 - 40%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This set doesn't run CC, but even if it did, you can just ID on the switch in.)
Offensive tusk takes 80 and doesn't OHKO back with CC if Zama is at +1 defense.

240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 366-432 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 256-304 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 324-382 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 331-391 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(The Tera Elec set still beats Zap anyway, but just putting it here as well)

So, no, thanks to Tera there is no consistent counterplay, and at best it forces you to defensive tera, which leaves you vulnerable to the 5 other mons.
Were you saving your defensive tera for late game? Too bad, you have to handle Zama first, and then get blown away later.

This is a mon that can clearly picks it's counters.
Didn't we just ban Volc for that same thing?

Ah so what about revenge killing?

Well, Zama is still in it's infancy, and will definitely have more than 2 sets before it's all said and done lmao.

Zama will obviously scare out a lot of mons, and/or is tanky enough to take neutral attacks, and get a free Trailblaze/Agility either way.


Zamazenta @ Expert Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Trailblaze/Agility
- Iron Head
- Crunch
- Close Combat

Adamant still outspeeds Booster Val at +1, btw lol

252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 238-281 (82.3 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's without SR or Spikes up, as if that's ever going to happen lol

1 layer is 65% to OHKO, SR + 1 layer is OHKO

Or you could Tera if they somehow avoid a flinch and somehow there is no hazards

252+ Atk Expert Belt Tera Steel Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 355-420 (122.8 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gold? Gold folds

252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 228-269 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and again, healthy, no hazards, but Gold can't even KO back in this exchange if both are healthy.

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 178-210 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That leaves Pult, who has to be Timid to outspeed, and loses to Agility.

Again, we can calc no hazards and assume you haven't let Pult get touched.

252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 276-326 (87 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(Obviously OHKO with 1 layer or SR)

You could Draco, and then leave yourself wide open.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Or pray Zama is at half HP lol

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 145-172 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO

But again, you could just Tera Steel and eat a Draco, Make it Rain and Moonblast.
You don't even need Expert Belt tbh if you tera Steel, you could run HDB so you're always at full and free to eat attacks.
Tera Steel just makes it Zama-Crowned, y'know, the QB, obv broken mon lol.

Btw, I was being nice with the expert belt Iron Head set, I didn't want any complaints about this set being Tera reliant.
But, Tera Fairy is a clean OHKO on Val and Pult, and you avoid Draco.
And, if using Agility, you can free up a lot of those Speed EVs and put them towards bulk.

And who knows what sets will pop up given enough time.
Scarf, Howl, AV, Endure+Reversal, Solar Beam, Impression + Rest, etc.
This is more of a side point, but still.

I'm not even going to get into the CB set lol, those calcs are really insane.

So yeah, the mon with 660 BST that are distributed amazingly, an ability that gives it a free +1 in Defense, with a great movepool, is going to be broken in a Tera meta.

Let me save someone some embarrassment; if your main talking point is that you need to burn your Tera to defensively check this mon, then that's just proof it's broken.
There should never be a mon that you have to burn your tera to handle it somehow.
Even the most broken mons in OU right now, like Val, Gambit, Pult have mons that can handle them without defensive tera.
Even if Val, Gambit, Pult offensively tera, there are still mons that handle them without needing to burn their tera.
So just think about that before you type anything.

We could suspect it again post-tera and I would vote no ban, but I'm failing to understand why anyone who knows what they're talking about thinks this mon is acceptable as of right now.

To the council members who voted no-ban... I'm assuming you just wanted to give us something to do.

In conclusion, keep in mind that I've posted calcs for the literal handful of mons that were talked about as checks.
Please remember that these are the few mons that don't get blown away by +3 and above Body Press sets.
There are teams that basically get 6-0 by Zama after an ID or two, especially Balance, and forsure without a Dozo.

Zama can pick it's counters, punches giant holes in teams, and hasn't reached it's full potential as an oppressive force.

Voting: BAN

So using tera to defend against zamazenta is the proof that it is broken but you literally have to tera zamazenta to be able to do anything to a bunch of the most popular mons in the meta? (landorous, amoonguss, pex, dozo etc.). Half the calcs you listed require the right tera and honestly are not even that impressive (120 base attack is rather weak by gen 9 standards and these calcs are displaying this weakness clearly).

Tera crystal on Zamazenta is not particularly impressive, some of these you listed to me just sound terrible (ice tera will just get Zamazenta stealth rocked to oblivion and give it a ton of weaknesses making it much easier to revenge kill). Furthemore the Expert belt set ain't doing anything to corviknight (again one of the most popular OU picks, it's not like I am bringing up stuff from RU). Each set of Zamazenta has a considerable amount of weaknesses, the power level of gen 9 can handle zamazenta and, again, taking a look at its movepool i really doubt there is going to be a super OP set coming out the next few months. Not to be mean, but the expert belt set sounds pretty mediocre. I'm not saying it is bad as, like everybody, my experience with zamazenta in the tier is limited. I think zamazenta could be one of the few mons that can use the item effectively, but honestly it doesn't sound that powerful.

I think we see the same thing with different eyes and perception. Let's just take a look at some calcs you provided us:

-240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 146-174 (33.6 - 40%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

- 240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 162-192 (32.1 - 38%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO

To me these calcs really show how weak zamazenta is. You are literally devoting your tera to possibly get a 3HKO? You didn't even put lefties on Dozo in the calc (the most used item on it). Again to me these calcs are a valid proof for the no ban argument if anything else.

Zamazenta is a good mon that mainly has two viable playstyles (offensive variants + iron defense variants), nonetheless each set it runs will inevitably leave important weaknesses. There is no zamazenta set that will steamroll any well built team. Thus I will vote no ban.

 

[LoseToRU?]

So using tera to defend against zamazenta is the proof that it is broken but you literally have to tera zamazenta to be able to do anything to a bunch of the most popular mons in the meta? (landorous, amoonguss, pex, dozo etc.). Half the calcs you listed require the right tera and honestly are not even that impressive (120 base attack is rather weak by gen 9 standards and these calcs are displaying this weakness clearly).

Tera crystal on Zamazenta is not particularly impressive, some of these you listed to me just sound terrible (ice tera will just get Zamazenta stealth rocked to oblivion and give it a ton of weaknesses making it much easier to revenge kill). Furthemore the Expert belt set ain't doing anything to corviknight (again one of the most popular OU picks, it's not like I am bringing up stuff from RU). Each set of Zamazenta has a considerable amount of weaknesses, the power level of gen 9 can handle zamazenta and, again, taking a look at its movepool i really doubt there is going to be a super OP set coming out the next few months. Not to be mean, but the expert belt set sounds pretty mediocre. I'm not saying it is bad as, like everybody, my experience with zamazenta in the tier is limited. I think zamazenta could be one of the few mons that can use the item effectively, but honestly it doesn't sound that powerful.

I think we see the same thing with different eyes and perception. Let's just take a look at some calcs you provided us:

-240 Atk Tera Ice Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 146-174 (33.6 - 40%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

- 240 Atk Tera Electric Zamazenta Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 162-192 (32.1 - 38%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO

To me these calcs really show how weak zamazenta is. You are literally devoting your tera to possibly get a 3HKO? You didn't even put lefties on Dozo in the calc (the most used item on it). Again to me these calcs are a valid proof for the no ban argument if anything else.

Zamazenta is a good mon that mainly has two viable playstyles (offensive variants + iron defense variants), nonetheless each set it runs will inevitably leave important weaknesses. There is no zamazenta set that will steamroll any well built team. Thus I will vote no ban.

To answer your first question, yes.
I literally went over why the argument of needing to burn a tera to check this mon means there's something wrong.

Half the calcs you listed require the right tera

See Volcarona.
The QB mon.
Same thing was said about Volc.

How you think 120 attack is "weak" is p funny, but anyway

As for the mons handled by Tera Ice.
Do you know what a 3hko means? It means a mon can't switch in.
That makes it no longer a counter lol.

If Tusk switches in, it takes 1/3, then another 1/3 cuz you outspeed
Then does jack shit back to Zama
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 100 Def Zamazenta: 75-88 (23 - 27%) -- 46.3% chance to 4HKO
And then dies.
That's why 3hkos aren't "weak".

And yes, you burn your Tera, but now they don't have a Tusk, so no Spin, no Gambit switch in, etc.
However, the entire point was, with the right tera, Zama can win almost any match up.

Also, I only calc'd Tusk because you said it was a counter, but now that I think about it, Tusk just loses straight up lol
+3 100 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 159-187 (36.6 - 43%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recover
Or just don't attack it at all until you're maxed out, to avoid RH chip.
+6 100 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 253-298 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And honestly, I overlooked Protective Pads as an item, but that could be another way to blow past RH "checks".

Expert Belt was for the offensive set, this is the Lum set I posted first, and it's weak to SR only if it switches out, and if they're up, which your Tusk just died so idk.
And even w the offensive EB set, I said HDB would be better for Tera Steel, but anyway.

I didn't put lefties on Dozo cuz they all run boots now.

Speaking of the Lum set, you absolutely shred Corv,, but even with Ice after an ID.
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. +3 0 HP / 100 Def Tera Ice Zamazenta: 56-66 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO

The offensive set isn't mediocre, it can clean teams, and was also just an illustration of how Zama can choose it's counters.

Here, let me try this.

Zamazenta is a good mon that mainly has two viable playstyles (offensive variants + iron defense variants), nonetheless each set it runs will inevitably leave important weaknesses. There is no zamazenta set that will steamroll any well built team. Thus I will vote no ban.

Volcarona is a good mon that mainly has two viable playstyles (offensive variants + bulky variants), nonetheless each set it runs will inevitably leave important weaknesses. There is no Volcarona set that will steamroll any well built team. Thus I will vote no ban.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[TCTphantom]

Currently laddering for reqs and testing a few teams. Just need to hit the right streak.

Right now I lean no ban. Zamazenta to me seemed less and less broken the more the ladder developed. The further teams strayed from HO shenanigans and the more diverse the meta got, the more ok Zamazenta seemed. I feel it was scarier when Pao and Urshifu were in the meta, as both were pretty punishing to anything not HO.

Banded sets are really where I find myself wavering. It’s better into those fat teams, but it is super prediction reliant and can be pivoted around reasonably well. It’s far from this uncounterable behemoth, but 138 speed on a banded mon is scary.

I personally think the dog is fine, and I think it’s overhyped. A top 10 mon, but nothing too out of the ordinary.

 

[Azery]

got kinda mixed feelings about the dog after laddering with a few different teams, settling on one with the Sub+Iron Defense Set and Tera Ghost;
https://pokepast.es/b9ebfb736d34648a

kinda feel like this suspect should've happened before volc/urshifu-r were banned because they were some of the best possible checks to the set up sets.

a lot of games, like any with iron valiant or skeledirge or dondozo existing for example, had it in check until endgame pretty safely but there were countless games where zamazenta simply got the chance to come in on something physical(any dragonite lacking encore for example) and proceed to just win the game on the spot. the speed tier is insane and it allows it to just go hp/speed and win on attrition. never encountered a banded set myself, nor used it, so cannot speak to it's potency at all.

as with most seemingly overbearing mons, zamazenta's threat is exacerbated by its ability to tera and just ignore checks(fire to not get burnt, ghost to block spin for the team+win the mirror, etc). (potential)tera suspect in the imminent future will be most telling for the direction of the rest of the gen so i'm honestly w/e on whatever result this one gets.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

My favorite set is choice band. With your choice of close combat, crunch, stone edge, wild charge, heavy slam, ice fang (lol), or play rough, you have the ability to potentially threaten almost every mon in the tier. That is the key word though, POTENTIALLY. In reality, common defensive pokemon can quite easily scout this set, because most defensive mons do not get OKHO’d by zamazenta’s coverage moves. This set can be punished by zapdos, toxapex, skeledirge, dondozo (this one especially), gholdengo, enamorus, and a lot of other great pokemon. This set requires an insane amount of good prediction in most games to get the most leverage out of it, so I think it is healthy.

While zamazenta needs good prediction, this is same for the other user. If every mon is in fear of being 2HKO’d, then you have to take risks. While you could scout it, not every mon wants to waste a move slot on protect. Also, while most defensive mons can survive 1 hit, unless they have regenerator, they can never switch in again. Not to mention it being weakened by zamazenta and weakened for its teammates to exploit.

Now for the meat and potatoes, and why it is being suspected. The sub lefties set. This set is very good at dodging debilitating moves like toxic, will o wisp (except dragapult) and knock off, while also potentially threatening a sweep immediately against many offensive teams. Offensive teams have some recourse against it. Infiltrator dragapult puts heavy pressure on it from the jump, same with scarf enamorus or booster energy iron valiant, and zapdos is also still good on offensive teams too. Against defensive teams however, I have found this set to be kind of dead weight. All unaware mons completely stuff it, as well as haze toxapex and other similarly fat mons. It struggles to make progress against these teams even at +6. With this in mind, I think this set is balanced too, as even though this set is very good against offense, I do not think it is unbeatable if your team is healthy enough to withstand the assault. Forcing zamazenta out can win you the game for an offense team. As I said for defense this set can tend to be somewhat of a liability too, so I think this set too, is balanced.

I actually agree with this one though.
Still I am pro-ban. While I don’t think the SubID set is AS good, you still have to account for it. For example, you can switch in landorus, only for zamazenta to iron defense. You can switch in Toxapex, only for it to take a ton from wild charge.

Now I want to talk about its good points and why I would argue it is healthy for the metagame. First and foremost, it is a premier kingambit stop, especially with dauntless shield, and unlike something like great tusk, it lacks much other defensive utility other than checking certain problematic pokemon, so it can be relied to do this job often and consistently. As I mentioned earlier, offense has a tough time against this thing, which I argue is good, because it puts a little bit more balance in the metagame and gives fat teams a reason to be run, and it also improves balance teams since they naturally run many great checks to zamazenta such as gholdengo or zapdos. Its great speed and bulk let it act as an emergency check to almost any sweeper in the tier, and can prevent those pokemon from running a train on your team.

This argument could be disproved in one line: "Broken checking broken is a bad argument". However, I have more to say. Firstly, pre-home, balance was super popular. While offence was also popular, it’s not broken. There is no reason to limit offense further. After the initial bans, balance was very popular, and will continue to be when zamazenta is banned. Balance teams were already very good. Not to mention the most extreme type of fat, stall. Stall is barely usable but runs over most offense. There are already ways to deal with offense, and we cannot keep zamazenta just because "we want offense to be shit, and balance to be the best archetype."

 

[CD56]

While zamazenta needs good prediction, this is same for the other user. If every mon is in fear of being 2HKO’d, then you have to take risks. While you could scout it, not every mon wants to waste a move slot on protect. Also, while most defensive mons can survive 1 hit, unless they have regenerator, they can never switch in again. Not to mention it being weakened by zamazenta and weakened for its teammates to exploit.

I actually agree with this one though.
Still I am pro-ban. While I don’t think the SubID set is AS good, you still have to account for it. For example, you can switch in landorus, only for zamazenta to iron defense. You can switch in Toxapex, only for it to take a ton from wild charge.

This argument could be disproved in one line: "Broken checking broken is a bad argument". However, I have more to say. Firstly, pre-home, balance was super popular. While offence was also popular, it’s not broken. There is no reason to limit offense further. After the initial bans, balance was very popular, and will continue to be when zamazenta is banned. Balance teams were already very good. Not to mention the most extreme type of fat, stall. Stall is barely usable but runs over most offense. There are already ways to deal with offense, and we cannot keep zamazenta just because "we want offense to be shit, and balance to be the best archetype."

I have a couple things to say about this, because you do bring up good points. Personally while I believe banded zamazenta to be very very good, it is definitely MORE prediction reliant than many choice band pokemon. Something like Urshifu-R could very easily click its STAB moves in most situations because of the dual typing it has, making it much more difficult to stop with defensive switching. With zamazenta you really only need to prevent it from firing off its CC, which is a lot easier than a dual typed choice band mon. Once you deduce that the zamazenta is in fact banded, it becomes much easier to stomach and play around, though many offensive teams still fear it. The zamazenta user has to contstantly be on their A-game to nail the proper fighting resist, of which there are many amazing ones, while something like choice band tusk or even baxcalibur is a menace to switch into because you don’t know what STAB they will click. This is the main reason why I think band zama, while extremely threatening, can be handled well.

As for your comments about the ID Press set, I don’t have much to say other than scouting what set zamazenta is really is half the battle and once you are aware of the set the counterplay becomes significantly more clear.

As for your last point of “broken checks broken” this is fine except I don’t think either mon is broke in the first place, both are just really strong. Zama has plenty of checks as mentioned, and there are other pokemon that are decent at checking gambit, such as great tusk, lando-t (if not defiant, which is many) and even defensive zapdos, to name a few. Zamazenta just happens to be by far the most reliable one for the job. Offense in this metagame has always been very strong and it has been easy to break stall teams because of the lowered PP of recovery moves and lack of widespread toxic and knock off. Offense will still be a good, even great playstyle with it around, it will just require the offense user to make good plays to manuever around it, which is absolutely possible. I understand the pro ban arguments, as I was on the fence for a while about this, so I’m not saying you’re wrong for thinking the way you do, these are just my thoughts about it.

 

[VigilanteV8]

To answer your first question, yes.
I literally went over why the argument of needing to burn a tera to check this mon means there's something wrong.

See Volcarona.
The QB mon.
Same thing was said about Volc.

How you think 120 attack is "weak" is p funny, but anyway

As for the mons handled by Tera Ice.
Do you know what a 3hko means? It means a mon can't switch in.
That makes it no longer a counter lol.

If Tusk switches in, it takes 1/3, then another 1/3 cuz you outspeed
Then does jack shit back to Zama
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 100 Def Zamazenta: 75-88 (23 - 27%) -- 46.3% chance to 4HKO
And then dies.
That's why 3hkos aren't "weak".

And yes, you burn your Tera, but now they don't have a Tusk, so no Spin, no Gambit switch in, etc.
However, the entire point was, with the right tera, Zama can win almost any match up.

Also, I only calc'd Tusk because you said it was a counter, but now that I think about it, Tusk just loses straight up lol
+3 100 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 159-187 (36.6 - 43%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recover
Or just don't attack it at all until you're maxed out, to avoid RH chip.
+6 100 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 253-298 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And honestly, I overlooked Protective Pads as an item, but that could be another way to blow past RH "checks".

Expert Belt was for the offensive set, this is the Lum set I posted first, and it's weak to SR only if it switches out, and if they're up, which your Tusk just died so idk.
And even w the offensive EB set, I said HDB would be better for Tera Steel, but anyway.

I didn't put lefties on Dozo cuz they all run boots now.

Speaking of the Lum set, you absolutely shred Corv,, but even with Ice after an ID.
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. +3 0 HP / 100 Def Tera Ice Zamazenta: 56-66 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO

The offensive set isn't mediocre, it can clean teams, and was also just an illustration of how Zama can choose it's counters.

Here, let me try this.



Volcarona is a good mon that mainly has two viable playstyles (offensive variants + bulky variants), nonetheless each set it runs will inevitably leave important weaknesses. There is no Volcarona set that will steamroll any well built team. Thus I will vote no ban.

Hope that helps a little.

Sorry but you cannot talk your way out of this: POSSIBLY 3kho with the right tera is an incredibly bad argument. By your reasoning literally any pokémon can be considered broken. If we are having this discussion we can say that even CB dragapult is broken (faster than zamazenta, same attack, has u turn, and potentially deals with anything with tera blast). What about valiant? With its speed and offensive stats it can literally destroy anything in the meta given the right tera (actually, before knowing its set, valiant can potentially win against everything without tera unlike zama). Does this make it broken? Nope, it doesn't. You are creating perfect scenarios where you tera ice zamazenta tera blasting predicting the great tusk switch in and keep clicking it for 2 additional turns without any kind of opponents counter play.

You act like using tera has no kind of opportunity cost and this is obviously false. Again, when I'm using tera I want to get more value than 3khos.

By the way volc comparison is bad, Volcarona set up move is much better than Iron defense as it made volc incredibly hard to revenge kill + didn't get walled by anything while b press zamazenta does.

ps: I will never understand why to some people using tera offensively is ok to bring in a ban argument but when talking about defensive uses against said tera using tera of your own the same people say "you are using tera to defend, means that MON IS BROKEN". Bros Tera is part of the meta, it is not like a minor thing that sometimes get used, Building and using tera effectively is a crucial part of gen 9 meta and using defensive teras is absolutely normal. If I find myself struggling against niche/unexpected things like tera ice zamazenta I'm going to tera. As simple as that. I think that this argument is somewhat valid if you need to tera against a mon that doesn't need to tera to put pressure (like magearna). If you absolutely need tera to get past some counters like zama does I think it's ok to use one of your own. you use tera to attack? I will use tera to defend (If I need to do so). One tera for one tera. you are literally trying to use your once per game button to try to get a victory and I can't use my once per game button to try to defend against that?

 

[Eeveeto]

Will be brief, no time to defend my point of view extensively:

-In 46 battles I faced Zamazenta 3 times.
- I won 2 of those battles and the one I lost was not due to Zamazenta.
-Usage does not equal viability (in fact I think Zamazenta is underrated and should be used a lot more) but if this Pokemon was even slightly broken, more people would be using it. It happened before with other banned Mons like Chien Pao, Orthworm or Magearna.
-Apart from not being broken in practice (at least in my own experience) it isn't even broken in theory for me, with multitude of Mons being decent checks.
-There are Mons that at least currently deserve the Ban more than Zamazenta does: Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Baxcalibur and Kingambit come to mind.

Based on all of that, I will be voting DO NOT BAN in this suspect.

 

[Ctann]

I have never lost to a zamazenta and thought “oh that’s so unexpected”, outside of like a weird Tera.

have personally also played it a lot, obviously there’s quite a few varying ways to use it, but with the amount of switching options in OU, it’s unlikely to do much in the early or mid game, unless it’s emergency checking physical attackers.

When it comes to using it offensively, it’s kinda like valiant. Fast, enough variation in moves, and good great in the end game.

but wow is it difficult to pull weight if you reveal any information in the early or mid game.

at first I thought it was egregiously broken, the more I’ve played the less it feels that way. In this current meta it’s a slight do not ban opinion from me..

opinion vs. vote

note: I used the word opinion rather than vote, it’s because I don’t really use Alts and all that, due to being lazy, tho will happily go through the process if it looks like the vote ends up making a difference.

Although in any traditional or typical meta it would be a strong ban opinion.

it’s a very easily scouted threat with a long list of ways to deal with it.

the same can’t be said about quite a lot of the other “matchup pokemon”.

thanks to the blind Tera meta, there’s a lot more matchup sensitivity than previous gens. And we are assessing zamazenta hero in the context of the current meta, aren’t we.

I’m a big fan of the stability zamazenta adds to the meta. Kingambit is suppressed a little, roaring moon, baxcalibur, iron valiant and dragapult are all on their toes, and feel overall less ridiculous, etc.

heck, the physically-defensive psychic type is gradually becoming viable again!


so the traditional “super fast Pokémon - only outsped by scarfers or speedythreat 1,2, and maybe 3 - that can survive revenge attempts and has enough coverage for most things if it’s biggest checks are weekend” isn’t really hitting the same.

there’s a lot more matchup sensitive Pokémon than just matchup moth. Lol. Only one side has all the information needed tho; the other has to assume.

it’s been discussed about kingambit in particular.. where it can literally run multiple options to matchup, and you can only guess which, as no matter the game flow, the opponent is likely leave gambit for the end game. Whether you have healthy checks or not. So you can’t just assume it’s flying type because you have a healthy landorus-t, only to sack your cinderace to a +4 fire type, lol.

Lol, the biggest pro about zamazenta being meta-relevant

the presence of zam has reduced the viability and incidences of kingambit. This is very welcome right now

 

[LoseToRU?]

Sorry but you cannot talk your way out of this: POSSIBLY 3kho with the right tera is an incredibly bad argument. By your reasoning literally any pokémon can be considered broken. If we are having this discussion we can say that even CB dragapult is broken (faster than zamazenta, same attack, has u turn, and potentially deals with anything with tera blast). What about valiant? With its speed and offensive stats it can literally destroy anything in the meta given the right tera (actually, before knowing its set, valiant can potentially win against everything without tera unlike zama). Does this make it broken? Nope, it doesn't. You are creating perfect scenarios where you tera ice zamazenta tera blasting predicting the great tusk switch in and keep clicking it for 2 additional turns without any kind of opponents counter play.

You act like using tera has no kind of opportunity cost and this is obviously false. Again, when I'm using tera I want to get more value than 3khos.

By the way volc comparison is bad, Volcarona set up move is much better than Iron defense as it made volc incredibly hard to revenge kill + didn't get walled by anything while b press zamazenta does.

ps: I will never understand why to some people using tera offensively is ok to bring in a ban argument but when talking about defensive uses against said tera using tera of your own the same people say "you are using tera to defend, means that MON IS BROKEN". Bros Tera is part of the meta, it is not like a minor thing that sometimes get used, Building and using tera effectively is a crucial part of gen 9 meta and using defensive teras is absolutely normal. If I find myself struggling against niche/unexpected things like tera ice zamazenta I'm going to tera. As simple as that. I think that this argument is somewhat valid if you need to tera against a mon that doesn't need to tera to put pressure (like magearna). If you absolutely need tera to get past some counters like zama does I think it's ok to use one of your own. you use tera to attack? I will use tera to defend (If I need to do so). One tera for one tera. you are literally trying to use your once per game button to try to get a victory and I can't use my once per game button to try to defend against that?

• You win the 1v1 vs def Tusk via ID + BP no tera needed
• Volc was a mon that could pick its counters, I showed how Zama can do the same thing
• Offensive mons that aren't broken still have dedicated counters and checks that don't need to Tera even if the offensive mon Teras
• Zama has very little true counters, and I showed how those few counters could be handled
• If you don't understand, that's fine, vote how you want

 

[dudebones]

Can someone pls explain the "pick its counters" point of view a lot of people repeat?

Isn't this the case for many offensive threat in the meta right now?
I firmly believe Iron Valiant and King Gambit can, for the most part, "pick their counters" currently with a mixed set/tera set respectively.

just confused how this is used as justification for a ban when it clearly can apply to certain meta threats no one speaks about suspecting or banning?

 

[LoseToRU?]

Can someone pls explain the "pick its counters" point of view a lot of people repeat?

Isn't this the case for many offensive threat in the meta right now?
I firmly believe Iron Valiant and King Gambit can, for the most part, "pick their counters" currently with a mixed set/tera set respectively.

just confused how this is used as justification for a ban when it clearly can apply to certain meta threats no one speaks about suspecting or banning?

Well, Val and Gambit are also broken lol

Someone could explain it better than me I'm sure, but I learned about it back in gen 7 when Zygarde was banned.
Basically, if a mon has multiple viable sets, and each of those sets can beat a counter, then technically it has no counters.

G-king could beat bulky Grass variants of Volcarona, but not the offensive Tera Ground variants, so G-King was only a counter some of the time.
If a mon has almost no counterplay, then it's broken.
The less counterplay a mon has, the more it's up for a suspect or a QB,

So right now we have Zama, who has very few counters in some bulky mons, and can be revenged killed by maybe 3 mons, but with the right Tera, EV spread, item and moves, you could technically handle all of them.

Without Tera, it's defensive counterplay options are limited to passive mons that aren't that splashable or good, like RH Lando.
Some of them are, like Zapdos, but not when you Tera Electric, which is why I say Tera pushes this mon out.
It's offensive counters are few, even less than the defensive ones, but more viable.
However, most of these are revenge killers, either locked into scarf of specs, or reliant on a one time speed booster like Val.
So, even if Zama is revenged, you still have the momentum due to a choice locked mon, or you scare out Val who is now slower when/if it comes back in later.
Even so, these offensive counters can be handled by Tera as well, Steel/Fairy come to mind.

Like I said, this is a bare bones explanation and someone could do a lot better, but that's the core of it from my perspective.

 

[dudebones]

Will be brief, no time to defend my point of view extensively:

-In 46 battles I faced Zamazenta 3 times.
- I won 2 of those battles and the one I lost was not due to Zamazenta.
-Usage does not equal viability (in fact I think Zamazenta is underrated and should be used a lot more) but if this Pokemon was even slightly broken, more people would be using it. It happened before with other banned Mons like Chien Pao, Orthworm or Magearna.
-Apart from not being broken in practice (at least in my own experience) it isn't even broken in theory for me, with multitude of Mons being decent checks.
-There are Mons that at least currently deserve the Ban more than Zamazenta does: Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Baxcalibur and Kingambit come to mind.

Based on all of that, I will be voting DO NOT BAN in this suspect.

I tend to agree with this POV

I have played A LOT of ladder since home dropped, low laddering for reqs, mid ladder (1500-1800s) for testing, and i was 2K+ high ladder for weeks.

I think Zama is really good, maybe A or A- tier, but at team preview there are a lot more mons that are PRESSING to handle. To name a few, figuring out what kind of Valiant you have to play against often costs a mon, deciphering if Gambit is low kick/tera fly or fairy or fire or dark, dealing with Baxcalibur as a whole, dancing around air balloon Sneasler without activating unburden, and bulkier threats like Garg or Enamorus-therian can just wipe certain offensive teams unless you play a very different game or dedicate an entire pokemon to Cloak.

I find that special attackers that were on my team before home, and would stay on my team after a Zama ban, are solid enough answers to this guy that I lean toward a No Ban. Pokemon such as Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, Skeledirge, Gholdengo, Wake, and new additions such as Zapdos and Enamorus really limit Zama while still being so solid to the rest of the meta.

Compared to how it felt to play this game when Mag, Chien Pao, Regi and Urshifu were legal this pokemon is not on the same power level in any sense. I do not need to dedicate off meta Tera types or perform strange doubles to try and catch Zama switching in, i just know from the start that preserving special attackers and trying to get a sneaky knock off on Zama are important.

Yes i understand that sometimes you get baited into a Valiant switch and have to eat a banded Heavy Slam, but then you're playing against banded Zama which kinda sucks lol. I also think Screens cheese teams are so strong right now and Ghost stab is so overpowered that Dragapult is an almost must on the types of builds i like to run, and Pult is such a solid answer to sub Zama and Balloon Sneasler that it doesnt feel like i am dedicating a slot on my team to answer just one threat (ie putting Dirge on every balance for Mag or running into weird mind game Tera situations with Tusk when youre predicting Tera Ice Regi etc.)

Overall I dont feel the presence of Zama like other mons that were justifiably banned, I also think these arguments where Zama uses a specific Tera to counter a counter make sense on paper, but in actual play I feel like these plays do not result in a Zama sweep that often.

Open to change my mind always, but I know how much I've played lately and I just cant bring myself to vote Ban just yet. I am of the minority opinion that Screens and maybe Valiant need to be considered first.

 

[Ctann]

Can someone pls explain the "pick its counters" point of view a lot of people repeat?

Isn't this the case for many offensive threat in the meta right now?
I firmly believe Iron Valiant and King Gambit can, for the most part, "pick their counters" currently with a mixed set/tera set respectively.

just confused how this is used as justification for a ban when it clearly can apply to certain meta threats no one speaks about suspecting or banning?

“pick it’s counters” is synonymous with “matchup reliant”.

Volcarona got a lot of heat for it’s matchup reliance for years, and ironically got banned in the meta with the most matchup reliant roster of Pokémons ever.

Some brainstorming about types of broken

if you ranked the levels of broken, it could possibly look like:

1. clearly broken: most Ubers, and some recent ones include magearna and eleki

2. Meta warping, runs away with some games: zamazenta-crowned fits approx here

3. Grey area broken, can completely dominate some games, the list of checks and ways to deal with it is simply not long enough and/or too tight on turns needed: the council members in their infinite wisdom slotted Volcarona approx here

4. grey area broken, big part of the meta, difficult to reliably deal with as it’s best checks can be overwhelmed and they’re often bottlenecked because you can’t squeeze all the checks on one team: this is presumably where most people see Zamazenta, although some might see it higher.

people argue zamazenta is matchup reliant.

In other words, it’s bearable and not quite as obviously OP as magearna, Chien Pao, and friends.

example of matchup reliance: Tera electric zamazenta deals with zapdos more easily and can get +4 presses, but then loses to itself if the opponent has Tera ghost zamazenta. Against some things like phys-def glowking, it can’t even setup.

best current example of matchup reliance is booster energy valiant. It can solo win some end games or be forced to waste its speed boost.

you’re right about the gambit too, although what makes that more frustrating is you need to guess: 1. Tera type 2. Sucker or non-sucker all whilst it just gets stronger with each 50/50 they call right.

 

[Pflupf]

The Iron Defense + Body Press set gets stopped by Skeledirge, Moltres, Dondozo, Slowking-Galar, Toxapex, etc.

Dirge never gave a F and you'll either get wisped or just give it a free torch song.
Moltres has flame body, wisp & hurricane. Very scary unless you run stone edge instead of crunch.
Dozo also never gave a F and will also set up on you, not giving a F about your defense boost either. You'll get counter-pressed.
Galar-Slowking comes in with sharp looking headwear. Has regenerator and chilly reception for pivoting in and out whenever necessary.
Pex is just gonna infest and toxic and there goes your Zama if you don't switch it out.

 

[June Heat]

Here are some Resto Chesto Doggo games. Not saying they're played well, plenty of mistakes on all ends, nor high ladder, but maybe that's the point of how stupid the Dog can be sometimes when given a tool to increase longevity. The more I play Zamazenta the more I realize that the Substitute set is ass, and you're better off slotting in a move that can beat some checks. Such a cheesy mon, enjoy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1888066970
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1887995987
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1888239583-gu3i0grqex4hkuyn5ukr99fs9sfqvh9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1888243860-m5c0fbhi8ku86y5dbi9km1a35tvnv3opw

 

[Ash Borer]

Here are some Resto Chesto Doggo games. Not saying they're played well, plenty of mistakes on all ends, nor high ladder, but maybe that's the point of how stupid the Dog can be sometimes when given a tool to increase longevity. The more I play Zamazenta the more I realize that the Substitute set is ass, and you're better off slotting in a move that can beat some checks. Such a cheesy mon, enjoy.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1888066970
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1887995987
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1888239583-gu3i0grqex4hkuyn5ukr99fs9sfqvh9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1888243860-m5c0fbhi8ku86y5dbi9km1a35tvnv3opw

sorry, but I've only watched the first replay, and I'm failing to see what was "cheesy" about it. Your opponent had two strong answers to Zamazenta that that they played poorly / you successfully targeted. Enamorus was a hard stop to that set, the Slowking could have just used Future Sight and KOed it (not to mention some successful cycling between Slowking and Kingambit could have preserved both.)

What exactly is cheesy about a sweep lategame on a weakened team that lost or blatantly misplayed their counters?

(okay I watched the other 3, much cheesier. That tera-electric and Rest really is too deadly.)

 

[Marrilandra]

I took a break from Pokemon for awhile and found it interesting that I return to this when considering trying stuff out again for when I get free time next month finally. However, since my life has gotten a lot busier, I can mostly only go off of what I've seen and watched along with others' thoughts on the matter for the most part, with very limited actual playtime given the last time I could play consistently was prior to the initial Terastilization suspect test we had, so I can't really vote ban or no ban (unless it's something ridiculously obvious what to do like Dynamax last generation)

To go with my own, this is kind of a shock given that the last time this happened was with Kyurem-Black way back in the day and it was perfectly fine for OU for 3 generations in a row as a result, though of course that's not the case anymore since the very thing it needed to be broken in OU it finally got with Icicle spear and all. However, Zamazenta feels like at first glance it sorta already has it in a way.

Zamazenta has Body Press and Iron Defense, which along with its ability, means it could do some significant damage while tanking hits very well, and the calcs do seem to point right to that possibility. However, I'm also seeing Choice Band sets making a ruckus for a reason to ban it, meaning the high defense status isn't the only thing to worry about, nor the lack of reliable recovery actually being a heavy downside like my own thoughts seem to point at.

There is also the possibility that Zamazenta's true weakness could be four moveslot syndrome in this case, as it can't hit everything and Tera-typing also can help in some cases probably. I'm curious to how things will play out if it's allowed, since that could be a massive shake-up with how Zamazenta potentially could check previously broken threats with the right investment and/or sets.

Granted since I haven't played competitive pokemon in a hot minute due to real life as I've said already, so these are just my initial impressions on the matter, given this is essentially what happened with Kyurem-Black before. ...I will say that that honestly, I think this probably should've happened last gen too tbh, but Idk.

EDIT: Looking at further posts, it sounds like Terastilization might actually break Zamazenta completely, which leads to another thought entirely, what if it's factor'd out if say Tera-Typings were suspected again and eventually banned if so? What then? Might even lead to that happening potentially I think.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Finished reqs today and have some thoughts.

Zama balances out the Tusk/Gambit meta in a weird way.
It feels like a missing piece when looking for a consistent switch in to either.

Ladder doesn't feel too bad, not fun but playable in a silly way, but it was the easiest reqs of my life.
I have no idea how casuals are having fun getting steamrolled by someone who knows how to use Tera.

That said, still voting ban.

Never been a huge fan of broken checks broken unless we're talking about gen 7 lol

Just because Gambit has a new mon to fear doesn't mean it still isn't broken af.
Zama can't be the piece that holds this tier together.

It reminds me of how Melmetal holds gen 8 together when it comes to Weav and Pult, but Zama is just too fast and too consistent to be ok with me.

I won at least 8 games by pressing ID and just cleaning 3-5 mons.

We need to ban Zama, then start going down the list of broken mons if we're not going to look into tera.

The Iron Defense + Body Press set gets stopped by Skeledirge, Moltres, Dondozo, Slowking-Galar, Toxapex, etc.

Dirge never gave a F and you'll either get wisped or just give it a free torch song.
Moltres has flame body, wisp & hurricane. Very scary unless you run stone edge instead of crunch.
Dozo also never gave a F and will also set up on you, not giving a F about your defense boost either. You'll get counter-pressed.
Galar-Slowking comes in with sharp looking headwear. Has regenerator and chilly reception for pivoting in and out whenever necessary.
Pex is just gonna infest and toxic and there goes your Zama if you don't switch it out.

The thing is, that's a short list of mons I would label as passive, somewhat easy to revenge and take advantage of mons.
Good mons forsure for what they do, but rarely are u going to have more than 2 of these mons on the same team, 3 at most.
Which means they have a lot of pressure to stay healthy so Zama doesn't steamroll.

That pressure makes playing against them easier; if you send in Zama, they literally have to send in these mons, and you can predict that- and the more of these mons you have, the more passive/stall your team becomes, and right now that's not great.

Dirge- can't switch into crunch, and after Lum it's either dead or forced to tera, due to Crunch being a clean 3hko.
Moltres- v passive and p niche honestly
Dozo- is Dozo
G-King- Doesn't run RH, and can't switch into Crunch
Pex- is Pex.

Also, HO has no room for these mons, and most offense teams don't either really.

Anyway, this my last post on here since this thread is p much dead anyway lol